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Author Topic: Dispensationalism/Rapture Christians  (Read 12555 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 11, 2013, 02:59:39 PM »

So when exactly did this whole dispensationalist "the-Rapture-is-coming!" doomsday type Christianity become so popular in America? And what is the best way to deal with them? I find that my parents are very brainwashed by this heresy--and have been for a few years--ever since they watched Left Behind in the early 2000s. They believe that odd thing about there being "3 Anti-Christs" the first being Napolean, second Adolf Hitler (which is odd, since Stalin was 10x worse), and third one yet to come. What's the best way to deal with this type of Christian? I told them I don't believe in the whole "three anti-Christs thing" because it has no roots in the Bible or any Christian tradition, but comes from Nostradamus, who was an occultist weirdo probably influenced by demons, and they had no idea what I was talking about.
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2013, 03:22:39 PM »

I don't know how it happened but some of these people can be very extreme in their views, that if you don't agree with their interpretation of the end times to them you might not even be a Christian. Bad theology, bad attitude.
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2013, 03:40:32 PM »

Dispensationalism and it's associated idea of a pre-tribulation rapture was first popularized in the U. S. through the influence of the Scofield Reference Bible (1909, revised 1917). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scofield_Reference_Bible  It originated in the 19th century with John Nelson Darby. Until recently Dispensationalism was represented by two major schools in the U. S. A.: Moody Bible Institute (Chicago) and Dallas Theological Seminary.

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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2013, 03:43:20 PM »

It has its roots in bad 1980s televangelism. People sat home and watched any old preachers rant and rave about the end of the world. It probably appealed to many people because they would be the ones who didn't know about, or had been taught not to believe in, the history of the early Church. They had been told by Protestant churches not to trust what the Orthodox and Roman Catholics had to say about Church history. The easy-to-digest pop culture version of history became the thing that filled in the gaps. I guess a tacky thriller like the awful Left Behind books made them think they were getting the 'secret truth.' Which is not true, of course, but some people want to believe something different. That's all.
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 03:54:03 PM »

www.larknews.com/archives/401

Quote
OTTAWA — The Rapture occurred last Tuesday at 9:43 a.m. Greenwich Mean Time and took both people on the planet whose theology was exactly correct.  Dan Wilson of Ottawa, Canada, was snatched away while sleeping.  “He spent years refining his eschatological scheme,” says his wife. “Just last week he told me he had it all right, but I still disagreed with him on a minor point. I regret that now.”  Rejna Thanawalla of New Delhi, India, also experienced the Rapture, say friends.  “She knew exactly what the books of Revelation and Daniel meant,” they say. “Sadly, none of us listened to her.”  In a surprise, Tim LaHaye says he was “slightly wrong on the subject of the Beast,” and was left behind. Other prophecy experts say they, too, botched minor points in their end times charts.  “Looks like we’ll have to stay and wait this out,” said one disappointed pastor.
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 06:06:33 PM »

Ask them, if they are pre-trib or mid-trib, why believers are killed DURING the tribulation and not raptured ? It CLEARLY says that the dead in Christ rise first and then those that are still alive will be changed...
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2013, 09:08:32 AM »

So when exactly did this whole dispensationalist "the-Rapture-is-coming!" doomsday type Christianity become so popular in America? And what is the best way to deal with them? I find that my parents are very brainwashed by this heresy--and have been for a few years--ever since they watched Left Behind in the early 2000s. They believe that odd thing about there being "3 Anti-Christs" the first being Napolean, second Adolf Hitler (which is odd, since Stalin was 10x worse), and third one yet to come. What's the best way to deal with this type of Christian? I told them I don't believe in the whole "three anti-Christs thing" because it has no roots in the Bible or any Christian tradition, but comes from Nostradamus, who was an occultist weirdo probably influenced by demons, and they had no idea what I was talking about.
Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Is God's word to be trusted? He says it is:
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
I have not watched the 'Left Behind' material. If it teaches that there are 3 Anti Christs; Napoleon, Hitler and one yet to come then this is not scriptural. All sorts of false doctrine are preached in all sorts of places. Some false doctrine is new, some old. The length of time any teaching has been around or who or how many people believe it does not make it true. What does God's word have to say on the issue? I commend God's word to both yourself and your parents.
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2013, 09:31:02 AM »

It has its roots in bad 1980s televangelism. People sat home and watched any old preachers rant and rave about the end of the world. It probably appealed to many people because they would be the ones who didn't know about, or had been taught not to believe in, the history of the early Church. They had been told by Protestant churches not to trust what the Orthodox and Roman Catholics had to say about Church history. The easy-to-digest pop culture version of history became the thing that filled in the gaps. I guess a tacky thriller like the awful Left Behind books made them think they were getting the 'secret truth.' Which is not true, of course, but some people want to believe something different. That's all.
It's roots are in the bible.[Refer 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52] I would advise against just:
believing anything I am 'told' to believe by Protestant, Orthodox or Roman Catholic churches whether the preacher is old or young or indeed whether they are ranting and raving or calm in their delivery of the message. We are to test whether what is preached concurs with God's word. If it does not, then it is false teaching.
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2013, 10:04:12 AM »

If you discuss the topic with such Christians be very clear that you believe in the second coming of Christ.  Those that are really into dispensationalism/rapture theology seem to hold it as dogma.  You might as well tell them you don't believe that Christ rose from the dead.  So preface the conversation with the assurance that you believe Christ will return.  I also wouldn't spend too much time discussing the subject. 
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2013, 10:32:01 AM »

rachel, first, welcome to the board.  That some will be alive (in the body) when Christ returns in glory is a given.  That the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit is also.  Of course, they must be rightly discerned.  Therein lies the problem. It is the idea of what many Protestants refer to as a "rapture" with some being "left behind", thus clearly teaching 3 comings of Christ that is the issue.  I spent 3 years of my life in a full-time study of the rapture as it is taught in many evangelical/protestant churches.  I've read nearly every word that E.W. Bullinger ever wrote.  (And, if you don't recognize his name, you have not studied that which you follow.)  When it was all said and done and while I was still a Protestant, it was clear that the coined-word "rapture" didn't exist and is a developed teaching of man, entering into the scripture with a pre-supposed idea, searching for scriptures to support it, and re-inventing teachings that many centuries prior had been declared foreign and heretical.  The scriptures you quote and the others you didn't mention do not support it in any way, shape or form when either placed back into their proper context.  I had refrained from posting on this thread because I recognize the time and commitment that is required to refute the "rapture" in a point-by-point manner.  Honestly, if I am not able to make that commitment, then I should remain silent.  There are SO many fundamental misinterpretations that it's nearly overwhelming but, at the end of the long process, popular protestant teachings fall like a house of cards.  THIS is how I became Orthodox after 50 years of being protestant.  Once I pulled on the thread of the "rapture," the entire fabric of their teachings came loose and fell to the floor.  If truth matters to you more than being "right"...if your faith in God is strong enough to allow you to be shaken to the core about things that you have always assumed were true and correct...if you prefer cohesion to confusion...invest the time and find the courage to explore what the Orthodox Church teaches about "end times" and Israel.
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2013, 11:30:06 AM »

When I told my wife that Orthodoxy doesn't teach the rapture theology stuff, she thought that I meant that there was no second coming. So yeah, for some this a sensitive assumption.
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2013, 11:44:10 AM »

the rapture IS scriptural, but not in the way many evangelicals want to believe...it occurs at Yeshua's second coming.  It says..last great trumpet. From a Judaic perspective, this would be the last shofar blast during Yom Teruah, the Feast of Trumpets.  
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2013, 12:24:47 PM »

Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rachel,

Your verses refer to the Resurrection at the end of the Ages.

The American "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" doctrine that we are referring to argues this: That before the end of the world, Christ will come partway down from heaven, lift all true believers up to heaven, and then return to hide in heaven for a while, as, on earth, the heathens kill each other off and a few other less-than-true believers get a second chance.
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2013, 02:35:08 PM »

Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:

No it's not

Quote
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

That is a reference to the resurrection of the dead which will occur at Christ's second coming.

Quote
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That's about the resurrection of the dead; nothing about this silly rapture thing.

Quote
Is God's word to be trusted?

Jesus is the Word of God; anyone who says otherwise is a Protestant with a really bad understanding of the Greek logos.

Quote
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

That's a circular argument. But, that's not the point. I'm not denying that the scriptures are good for reproof and all that junk.

Quote
The length of time any teaching has been around or who or how many people believe it does not make it true.

Yes it does. If it's new then it is false because Christ already revealed the truth to us. If the Apostles didn't believe it or teach anything related to it, then it is false.
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2013, 02:37:48 PM »

It's roots are in the bible.[Refer 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52]

Not necessarily. The thing is, the only reason people find "roots" for the rapture in the Bible is because they go into reading the Bible assuming that the rapture is already true, thus, it has a placebo affect of them finding "evidence" for a proposition they already assume is true. And oftentimes, this "evidence" is taken out of context and twisted.

Quote
believing anything I am 'told' to believe by Protestant, Orthodox or Roman Catholic churches whether the preacher is old or young or indeed whether they are ranting and raving or calm in their delivery of the message. We are to test whether what is preached concurs with God's word. If it does not, then it is false teaching.

You trust your own judgment over God's Church, likewise, the Bible is not God's "word". Normally I'd go into more detail, but, I'm kinda lazy in my apologetics this morning.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 02:38:35 PM by JamesR » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2013, 06:17:38 AM »

rachel, first, welcome to the board.  That some will be alive (in the body) when Christ returns in glory is a given.  That the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit is also.  Of course, they must be rightly discerned.  Therein lies the problem. It is the idea of what many Protestants refer to as a "rapture" with some being "left behind", thus clearly teaching 3 comings of Christ that is the issue.  I spent 3 years of my life in a full-time study of the rapture as it is taught in many evangelical/protestant churches.  I've read nearly every word that E.W. Bullinger ever wrote.  (And, if you don't recognize his name, you have not studied that which you follow.)  When it was all said and done and while I was still a Protestant, it was clear that the coined-word "rapture" didn't exist and is a developed teaching of man, entering into the scripture with a pre-supposed idea, searching for scriptures to support it, and re-inventing teachings that many centuries prior had been declared foreign and heretical.  The scriptures you quote and the others you didn't mention do not support it in any way, shape or form when either placed back into their proper context.  I had refrained from posting on this thread because I recognize the time and commitment that is required to refute the "rapture" in a point-by-point manner.  Honestly, if I am not able to make that commitment, then I should remain silent.  There are SO many fundamental misinterpretations that it's nearly overwhelming but, at the end of the long process, popular protestant teachings fall like a house of cards.  THIS is how I became Orthodox after 50 years of being protestant.  Once I pulled on the thread of the "rapture," the entire fabric of their teachings came loose and fell to the floor.  If truth matters to you more than being "right"...if your faith in God is strong enough to allow you to be shaken to the core about things that you have always assumed were true and correct...if you prefer cohesion to confusion...invest the time and find the courage to explore what the Orthodox Church teaches about "end times" and Israel.
Thank you so much for your welcome. "Leap of faith" is an interesting name. It suggests things about your approach to these things. Regarding the correct discernment of scriptural truth, let us see if we can agree on fundamental principles. One role of the Spirit is to "lead us into all truth". So, as I think you imply, as long as we are "Berean" in our approach and open to his leading, we can be confident that we will ultimately arrive at the truth. The second point I would make is that our rationality is a reflection of the way God thinks. Having said that we have to ensure that our conclusions are always subject to God's revelation of course but the implication of that is that we would always expect our exegesis to be consistent with the totality of God's word AND to be rational. This is because we believe that the Bible is God's communication to Man and INTENDED by him to be comprehensible. Sorry, that is a rather long-winded introduction to an answer but I hope it may avoid misunderstanding.

Now, 'Rapture' is a non-Biblical word of course and it has probably acquired some baggage. I'm ok with its use as a 'convenience' term as long as the concept under discussion is common to all participants, so my first point in reply is to question your statement that it involves 'three comings of Christ'. Firstly, if this were true, would it matter so long as we can establish that it is scriptural? Secondly; it rather depends what you mean by 'comings'. Nowhere does Thessalonians tell us that Christ returns to earth at the Rapture; in fact, it quite explicitly tells us the opposite! So those who hold to the rapture, don't believe in three comings of Christ.

Secondly you refer to Bullinger - can we keep from other men's opinions for the present? Your third point is that you hold the rapture to be a construct of Man. Can we establish that, in this discussion at least, this  remains to be seen. Fourthly, you said that the teaching had been declared "foreign and heretical" many centuries earlier but you omit to say by whom and on what scriptural basis. Perhaps it would be good if you filled in these gaps?

It is a shame that you feel you can't make the commitment to a full discussion since if I understand you correctly, it was a major factor in turning you to Orthodoxy and so is clearly not insignificant! Anyway, I trust that you will find time to tug vigorously at a thread and see if the pack of cards really does collapse!

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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2013, 06:25:07 AM »

Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rachel,

Your verses refer to the Resurrection at the end of the Ages.

The American "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" doctrine that we are referring to argues this: That before the end of the world, Christ will come partway down from heaven, lift all true believers up to heaven, and then return to hide in heaven for a while, as, on earth, the heathens kill each other off and a few other less-than-true believers get a second chance.


Nicholas, please establish from scripture that the verses I have quoted refer to the Second Advent. Thanks
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2013, 07:16:47 AM »

Quote
The second point I would make is that our rationality is a reflection of the way God thinks.

The Orthodox Church rejects this idea. God cannot be rationalized.
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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2013, 07:26:13 AM »

Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:

No it's not

The term is not. Please establish from scripture that the event is not.

Quote
Quote
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

That is a reference to the resurrection of the dead which will occur at Christ's second coming.

Please establish this from scripture

Quote
Quote
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That's about the resurrection of the dead; nothing about this silly rapture thing.

It is about resurrection indeed - at the rapture the dead in Christ will be raised first.

Quote
Quote
Is God's word to be trusted?

Jesus is the Word of God; anyone who says otherwise is a Protestant with a really bad understanding of the Greek logos.

Scripture tells us that it is ALL "SPIRIT=BREATHED" - this suggests that both are true

Quote
Quote
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

That's a circular argument. But, that's not the point. I'm not denying that the scriptures are good for reproof and all that junk.

What you refer to as "junk" is a quote from scripture. Please explain why the quote is "circular argument"

Quote
Quote
The length of time any teaching has been around or who or how many people believe it does not make it true.

Yes it does. If it's new then it is false because Christ already revealed the truth to us. If the Apostles didn't believe it or teach anything related to it, then it is false.

Not so. There are truths in scripture the implications of which are not part of the Spirit's current revelation. I refer you to Daniel for example. He was given the inter-testamental prophecies but their meaning was not revealed at the time. 
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« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2013, 07:54:55 AM »

Quote
The second point I would make is that our rationality is a reflection of the way God thinks.

The Orthodox Church rejects this idea. God cannot be rationalized.

Thank you for that. This is useful information but 'Leap of Faith' has just told me that I must be prepared to set aside my fixed ideas and have the courage to change. Is this just to be true of me or everyone?

So does the Orthodox Church tell us we must set aside our minds and, if so, why are we debating?

When you say, "God cannot be rationalised", I think I need to know what you mean. If you mean there is a point to which our concepts and understanding will not stretch in relation to God, this is clearly true because we are finite and he is infinite. If, on the other hand, you mean that God communicates with his creation in absurdities, then I would take this as an insult to him! Also, my understanding would be that you would disagree with other things which I've written. For example, there would seem to be no reason why you would expect the propositions of scripture to be consistent or even coherent. At this point discussion ceases because everyone is free to claim that scripture means whatever he wants it to mean. When God says, "come let us reason together......", is your understanding that he anticipated a 'nonsense' conversation?   
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« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2013, 08:43:33 AM »

Quote
The second point I would make is that our rationality is a reflection of the way God thinks.

The Orthodox Church rejects this idea. God cannot be rationalized.

Thank you for that. This is useful information but 'Leap of Faith' has just told me that I must be prepared to set aside my fixed ideas and have the courage to change. Is this just to be true of me or everyone?

So does the Orthodox Church tell us we must set aside our minds and, if so, why are we debating?

When you say, "God cannot be rationalised", I think I need to know what you mean. If you mean there is a point to which our concepts and understanding will not stretch in relation to God, this is clearly true because we are finite and he is infinite. If, on the other hand, you mean that God communicates with his creation in absurdities, then I would take this as an insult to him! Also, my understanding would be that you would disagree with other things which I've written. For example, there would seem to be no reason why you would expect the propositions of scripture to be consistent or even coherent. At this point discussion ceases because everyone is free to claim that scripture means whatever he wants it to mean. When God says, "come let us reason together......", is your understanding that he anticipated a 'nonsense' conversation?    

It means that God is beyond human reason. Orthodoxy teaches that man, because of the incarnation and sacrifice of Christ, has been given the possibility to achieve Theosis, Union with God, through his Divine Energies, that is, Gods Grace. This, however, doesn't mean that we will become one with God as the pantheists says. God is still apart from creation and, as you said yourself, infinite. This doesn't mean that we should not study the scriptures for answers, but that it makes no sense to try and understand God through rationality. Orthodox christians believe that Christ established the Church as the Ark of Salvation, the Bride of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2013, 09:58:12 AM »

Quote
The second point I would make is that our rationality is a reflection of the way God thinks.

The Orthodox Church rejects this idea. God cannot be rationalized.

Thank you for that. This is useful information but 'Leap of Faith' has just told me that I must be prepared to set aside my fixed ideas and have the courage to change. Is this just to be true of me or everyone?

So does the Orthodox Church tell us we must set aside our minds and, if so, why are we debating?

When you say, "God cannot be rationalised", I think I need to know what you mean. If you mean there is a point to which our concepts and understanding will not stretch in relation to God, this is clearly true because we are finite and he is infinite. If, on the other hand, you mean that God communicates with his creation in absurdities, then I would take this as an insult to him! Also, my understanding would be that you would disagree with other things which I've written. For example, there would seem to be no reason why you would expect the propositions of scripture to be consistent or even coherent. At this point discussion ceases because everyone is free to claim that scripture means whatever he wants it to mean. When God says, "come let us reason together......", is your understanding that he anticipated a 'nonsense' conversation?    

It means that God is beyond human reason.
Well he obviously wants us to understand something of himself. Why do you think he says, "come let us reason together...." if this is an impossibility and he is completely beyond human reason. Why reveal himself to us at all if we cannot understand? Do you believe that the bible is intended to communicate true, reasonable propositions?
 
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Orthodoxy teaches that man, because of the incarnation and sacrifice of Christ, has been given the possibility to achieve Theosis, Union with God, through his Divine Energies, that is, Gods Grace.
Yes, by God's grace we are saved through faith in his finished work upon the cross.

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This, however, doesn't mean that we will become one with God as the pantheists says. God is still apart from creation and, as you said yourself, infinite.
Agreed. Of course pantheists don't generally believe in a personal God.
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This doesn't mean that we should not study the scriptures for answers, but that it makes no sense to try and understand God through rationality.
How are we to find answers if they are not understandable? God is obviously not limited in what he is able to do but that does not make his acts irrational. Do you mean that the answers that we find would be absurd?
Mark 12:30
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
God is not expecting us to discard rational thought.
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Orthodox christians believe that Christ established the Church as the Ark of Salvation, the Bride of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.
Well Christ is responsible for our salvation through his death and resurrection. All who accept his gift of salvation are the 'bride of Christ.'
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2013, 10:37:08 AM »

Quote
Well he obviously wants us to understand something of himself. Why do you think he says, "come let us reason together...." if this is an impossibility and he is completely beyond human reason. Why reveal himself to us at all if we cannot understand?

We can understand what God reveals to us, by the Grace of the Holy Spirit, but not the fullness, the essence of God.

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Do you believe that the bible is intended to communicate true, reasonable propositions?
 

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.The Bible presupposes the faith of the reader. It is a faith document—not science, philosophy, history, archaeology, literature, ideology, or biography. Because of its origins and usage in the community of faith, it does not attempt to establish its own authenticity or to prove its basic assumptions. It was not intended as a logical proof for the existence of God or for the reality of that to which it attests
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Scripture

Quote
How are we to find answers if they are not understandable? God is obviously not limited in what he is able to do but that does not make his acts irrational. Do you mean that the answers that we find would be absurd?
Mark 12:30
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
God is not expecting us to discard rational thought.

Of course we should not discard rational thought, but human reason and divine reason is different.

Quote
Well Christ is responsible for our salvation through his death and resurrection. All who accept his gift of salvation are the 'bride of Christ.'
Many early heretics also accepted the Gift of Salvation, but that didn't stop the Church from excommunicate them.

As to the original topic, the Orthodox Church doesn't accept the teachings about the rapture, as presented by some modern protestant denominations. The Holy scriptures clearly states, that christians will have to go through tribulations before the Second Coming of Christ.
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« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2013, 04:51:36 PM »

Nicholas, please establish from scripture that the verses I have quoted refer to the Second Advent. Thanks
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

"Behold, the Lord comes with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

"Amen, Amen, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

I don't have a problem with the idea that there will be an order to the Resurrection., the righteous first, and then the wicked. But this is subsequent and not separated by a "tribulation". The problem is with the idea that those who are raised to life will be raised before the "tribulation", and the idea that the resurrected go to live in a place called heaven, away from earth. This is false.

There is nothing in the Scriptures that claims the righteous will be resurrected before the "tribulation", and will live in a far off place called heaven with Christ for a while before coming back to earth. Christ came to remake the world, not to escape it.

When the righteous dead arise and go to meet Christ in the clouds, it is to be part of his victory procession to earth, not to return to the clouds with him to live in the clouds.

The "pre-tribulation rapture" doctrine was invented in America. It is less than 300 years old. It is a doctrine invented by men late in the game. You can read it back into the Scriptures, but it's a  sick, escapist and unchristian understanding that was unknown to the early Christians.
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« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2013, 04:53:24 PM »

The term is not. Please establish from scripture that the event is not.

Show from scripture where people will magically disappear before the second coming. Nowhere in the scripture suggests this. We only see reference to the resurrection of the dead which will occur at the second coming. All of the scriptures you've referenced were taken out of context and/or isolated in such a way to support a presupposed premise.

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Please establish this from scripture

I just did. And I can back it with years of patristics and Church tradition. Sola Scriptura is unscriptural, btw. Establish from scripture that this refers to the "rapture"

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It is about resurrection indeed - at the rapture the dead in Christ will be raised first.

Only you haven't established that there will be a "rapture"  Wink

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Scripture tells us that it is ALL "SPIRIT=BREATHED" - this suggests that both are true

No it doesn't. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ (well, they are technically united in a mystical, trinitarian way, but you get the idea), therefore, it is not the Word. Therefore, the scriptures--even if they have the Holy Spirit breathed into them--are not the Word.

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Please explain why the quote is "circular argument

Using scripture to defend scripture is circular. Being Orthodox, we can use the Church's authority and the testimony of the martyrs and Saints to establish the scripture's authority.

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Not so. There are truths in scripture the implications of which are not part of the Spirit's current revelation. I refer you to Daniel for example. He was given the inter-testamental prophecies but their meaning was not revealed at the time.

Jesus is the final revelation; the center of the universe and history as we know it. There is nothing more to be revealed to humanity except for the second coming. This is why you shouldn't accept any new doctrine that can't be found in the Church--which, includes the scriptures. In the words of St. Paul, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1:8-9). I think I'll take the words of the Apostle himself over you  Wink
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« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2013, 10:06:49 PM »

I have to say, of all of the heresies, Dispensationalism HAS to be the most amusing...
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2013, 11:21:57 PM »

the rapture IS scriptural, but not in the way many evangelicals want to believe...it occurs at Yeshua's second coming.  It says..last great trumpet. From a Judaic perspective, this would be the last shofar blast during Yom Teruah, the Feast of Trumpets. 

Please keep these gems coming, in the name of HaShem!
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« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2013, 01:16:36 AM »

Please keep these gems coming, in the name of HaShem!
You have literally said: "in the name of TheName."
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« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2013, 01:30:14 AM »

Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rachel,

Your verses refer to the Resurrection at the end of the Ages.

The American "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" doctrine that we are referring to argues this: That before the end of the world, Christ will come partway down from heaven, lift all true believers up to heaven, and then return to hide in heaven for a while, as, on earth, the heathens kill each other off and a few other less-than-true believers get a second chance.


Nicholas, please establish from scripture that the verses I have quoted refer to the Second Advent. Thanks
May I ask, if the "last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 must be understood as a "pre-trib rapture trumpet," in what sense is it  really "last" if there are seven trumpets very soon to follow within the following seven years during the tribulation? (e.g. Revelation 11:15/"seventh trumpet"/final judgment). The usual "rationalizing" responses to such questions often pressed very hard by proponents of competing "eschatological systems" -to my mind at least- suggest Dispensationalism, rather than reflecting "the plain, undeniable literal meaning of the Bible" is just another systematic extrapolation coupled with idiosyncratic harmonization.

I have to say, of all of the heresies, Dispensationalism HAS to be the most amusing...
Except insofar as the likes of L. S. Chaefer, C. C. Ryrie, et al remove the teaching of Christ from the "church age." important elements of our Lord's message on this view were/are for Israel only; the church age is a "mystery parenthesis" (because not predicted, according to these authors, in the OT) after the culmination of which (with the "rapture") major teachings of Christ to the Jews will again become relevant -to Jews living during the tribulation period. This is whence derive notions like the Sermon on the Mount having nothing whatsoever to do with the church age -we don't need to concern ourselves with it! (contrast the Great Commission's exhortation to teach Gentiles *all things I commanded you* -not "some of the things I commanded you"). Frankly I suspect the devil is behind such developments is more credible than "plain meaning." If the meaning is so "plain," why should we suppose the majority of professing Christian biblical scholars think Dispensationalism is nonsense?

Lewis Sperry Chaefer, who only had a high school education, famously insisted on many absurd systematic divisions (one critique was aptly titled Is the Bible a Jigsaw Puzzle?)e.g. the kingdom of heaven being a distinct entity from the kingdom of God (despite the well known fact that Matthew uses this phrase globally in the very same sayings of Christ where Mark has kingdom of God, because of their respective audiences according to most interpreters). There are different new covenants for the church, and for Israel. There are some teachings of Jesus applicable for this age and others only for the millennial age. Entire books of the New Testament are said by certain authors to apply only to the Jews. The "second" coming becomes a sort of "third" return.

in all honesty, I cannot help regarding Dispensationalism as  the most absurd of the mutually exclusive systematic theologies stemming from the Reformation all claiming to present the "plain teaching of scripture," and all represented by proponents who present "scholarly systematic tomes" in the hermeneutical tradition of medieval humanism (grammatical/historical exegesis as an autonomous method; one hardly needs such notions as spiritual illumination of scripture and the hiddenness of its truths to those without eyes to see, which is why writers such as Barth and Bonhoeffer seemed so "radical" to Dispensational fundamentalists. Orthodoxy, of course, has always maintained this, e.g. St. Ephrem the Syrian, as also does Holy Scripture).

As it happens, one of our local Orthodox priests at one time received his first PhD from Dallas Theological Seminary, one of the two most important schools teaching the rapture paradigm; he ultimately came to regard it as absurd as do I.
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« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2013, 03:32:02 PM »

So when exactly did this whole dispensationalist "the-Rapture-is-coming!" doomsday type Christianity become so popular in America? And what is the best way to deal with them? I find that my parents are very brainwashed by this heresy--and have been for a few years--ever since they watched Left Behind in the early 2000s. They believe that odd thing about there being "3 Anti-Christs" the first being Napolean, second Adolf Hitler (which is odd, since Stalin was 10x worse), and third one yet to come. What's the best way to deal with this type of Christian? I told them I don't believe in the whole "three anti-Christs thing" because it has no roots in the Bible or any Christian tradition, but comes from Nostradamus, who was an occultist weirdo probably influenced by demons, and they had no idea what I was talking about.

There were rumors on the OBOB site of christianforums.com that the Jesuits invented this entire "Rapture-is-coming doomsday type Christianity" as a spoof to see if Protestants would buy it.

Anyway, my mother and the rest of my family left the Roman Catholic Church and now believe in the Rapture. They have all read the Left Behind series too. I guess it is a comforting teaching. They do not want to experience the Tribulation, but want to witness it in the clouds.

Yet, Revelation does not teach the Rapture, but encourages us to persevere in the faith.
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« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2013, 03:40:19 PM »

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I guess it is a comforting teaching.

I honestly can't see how that teaching could be considered comforting. I believed in it for a (very) short period of time and I was getting all paranoid and anxious. It didn't help that National Geographic Channel, at the same time, was showing an easter-themed documentary about it.
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« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2013, 06:48:18 PM »

Quote
that begs the question whether the church was RIGHT to excommunicate them - if it wasn't, it is meaningless. The visible Church does indeed exist today.

When they preached something that was contrary to the teachings of the Church, yes. The Apostles did this.

Concerning the rest. What most people in this thread is criticising, is the belief that the righteous will be taken away before the tribulation. As far as I can see, this is not what you believe. What we are discussing, I think, is more the word rapture.
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« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2013, 07:19:51 PM »

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that begs the question whether the church was RIGHT to excommunicate them - if it wasn't, it is meaningless. The visible Church does indeed exist today.

When they preached something that was contrary to the teachings of the Church, yes. The Apostles did this.

well Paul did and urged it where it was contrary to the GOSPEL

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Concerning the rest. What most people in this thread is criticising, is the belief that the righteous will be taken away before the tribulation. As far as I can see, this is not what you believe.

well I've pointed out that scripture states that the Antichrist cannot rise until the Church is removed and that the Antichrist presides over the Tribulation.
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What we are discussing, I think, is more the word rapture.
I don't think this is a discussion of semantics.
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« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2013, 07:26:26 PM »


well I've pointed out that scripture states that the Antichrist cannot rise until the Church is removed and that the Antichrist presides over the Tribulation.


Which scripture?
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« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2013, 07:28:53 PM »

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well Paul did and urged it where it was contrary to the GOSPEL

The Gospel and the teachings of the Church is the same thing.

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[well I've pointed out that scripture states that the Antichrist cannot rise until the Church is removed and that the Antichrist presides over the Tribulation.

First, I haven't seen you do that, and secondly, that idea is heretical. I repeat, the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against the Church, not now, not ever.

Dear Rachel,

There are now two of us requesting what scripture proof do you have that the Church must be removed before the AntiChrist presides.
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« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2013, 07:36:38 PM »

One of the things that bothers me so much about Rapture theories is that there are so many of them. Depending on what preacher you listen to, and what church you go to, and who talks to you about any given passage in the Scriptures, you may come up with many different things. Who can be sure of anything? I don't want to be scared of every daily event and wonder if this is going to be the one that means the wild, violent, Tim LaHaye-imagined end is here. God is not the author of confusion. Instead, what I've learned while going to an Orthodox Church is to repent and pray every day. Yes, one day there will be an end. But, you can confront it with fear or you can confront it with hope. I choose the latter.
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« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2013, 08:08:57 PM »

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well Paul did and urged it where it was contrary to the GOSPEL

The Gospel and the teachings of the Church is the same thing.

Quote
[well I've pointed out that scripture states that the Antichrist cannot rise until the Church is removed and that the Antichrist presides over the Tribulation.

First, I haven't seen you do that, and secondly, that idea is heretical. I repeat, the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against the Church, not now, not ever.

Dear Rachel,

There are now two of us requesting what scripture proof do you have that the Church must be removed before the AntiChrist presides.

I third that,

Show us scriptural proof that the Church must be removed before the coming of the anti-Christ. In other words, proof of this "rapture". All of the Scriptures you have listed have merely been references to the second coming of Christ--they say nothing about a "rapture." So far you've done nothing to defend your rapture position other than say "prove to me scripturally that these passages refer to the second advent." That's a cop-out. YOU are making the claim. Show us that they refer to the rapture before the anti-Christ.
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« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2013, 08:22:45 PM »

Dear rachel,

How would you respond to Jesus' Parable of the Wheat and Tares?

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.  So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Matthew. 13:24-30 NJKV).

This parable shines very much light upon the nature of the End, and answers the question of whether or not the Rapture is true. In this parable, the wheat is NOT gathered before the tares, rather, they are gathered together at the same time--which is the harvest, or, being less metaphoric, the Second Coming/End of the World/Judgement Day etc. If the rapture is true, then how come Jesus doesn't mention it at all in this parable, which, is clearly about the end of the world? If the rapture were true, then the wheat should have been gathered before the tares, but in this parable, they are not gathered until the time of the harvest, and they are gathered together.

Going further, this proves that the Scriptures NicholasMyra earlier quoted were in fact about the "Second Advent" opposed to the "rapture"--which, doesn't exist.
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« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2013, 08:31:56 PM »

Yes, one day there will be an end. But, you can confront it with fear or you can confront it with hope. I choose the latter.

So true!

I don't think they see it that way though.
I think they want to be "raptured", it's their goal in life. I'm not sure how that can even sound right, but to them it's everything. Or so it seems.

I'm trying to follow what Rachel is talking about, but all I got out of all this was a ....headache.

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2013, 08:36:24 PM »

My problem with this whole rapture thing is that it is not mentioned once by any of the Apostles. It is not taught by the Apostles. It is not mentioned by the disciples of the Apostles, nor their disciples, nor any of their disciples. The Early Church never mentioned it, never taught it. After the Great Schism the rapture is not taught in either the East or the West. After the Protestant Reformation the rapture is not taught until the late 1800's when it is first mentioned. Then the rapture really doesn't take off as dogma until the 1900's.

So if the Bible really does teach the Pre-Trib rapture why did no church teach it until 1800 years after Christ?

We have infant baptism, praying to the Saints, use of icons, works and faith for salvation, Tradition and Scripture as our doctrinal sources, deacons, priests, bishops, and finally the Church being the pillar of truth (just to name a few) all being taught from the time of the Apostles to now. Not once was the rapture mentioned.


Interpreting Scripture outside of the Church is folly; look at all of the thousands of Protestant denominations (of which there are over 25,000!). Most of these claim to be Bible believing, and claim to teach directly from the Bible. BUT each one of these thousands of denominations teach different things! Yet they all claim to interpret by the Holy Spirit. This does not sound like the work of God, for God does not cause confusion. So why would I trust any of them over the one Church that can actually lay claim to teaching the Bible because they made the Bible? Why would I deviate from the Church that goes back from now until the Apostles, and to Christ?
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« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2013, 09:22:53 PM »

A fundamental point of separation between those who have accepted the rapture and those who have remained faithful to the "faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) is how "end times/last days" are understood, as well as the persecution, trials and tribulation that are promised by Christ to occur during this period.  As I stumble through, I ask that my Orthodox brethren will be gentle with me if my word choices aren't always the best.  At Pentecost, upon the descent of the Holy Spirit and the speaking of languages that were not the natural languages of the apostles, Peter provided a clear explanation.  "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days(emphasis mine), says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men will see visions..." (Acts 2: 14-17 NKJV)  He goes on to describe more, using very 'apocalyptic' terms, but for the sake of brevity I'll leave it at that.  The point is that we believe exactly what Peter is clearly stating, that the "end times"...the "last days"...began at that moment and that we have been living in the "last days" ever since and we will continue to live in it until Christ returns.  The history of the persecution of the Orthodox Church defends this as being the correct understanding.  Of course, this history is greatly unknown by many who belong to America's "unique" brand of Christianity.  When the saints and martyrs were discarded, the suffering went along with it and a blind eye turned to what has happened even in my own lifetime and is happening as I type.

Protestants see persecution and tribulation as being some yet future point, 7 earthly years in endurance.  They just can't figure out when or if they'll be around for it.  Much of their understanding of scripture is earth-bound.  Another example would be their understanding of "Israel" as being some earthly nation.  Rather than understanding that it is the Church and those who bless her will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed, they have adhered this to some random nation that America must blindly follow. The Orthodox Church understands this number (7) not in earthly terms, but in spiritual terms...fullness, completion...that began at Pentecost and will continue until Christ returns in glory. In other words, the point of separation between "them" and "us" begins long before "the rapture."  It begins nearly 2,000 years ago and not a couple of hundred years ago when Darby showed up with his ideas.

And, because I tend to get too wordy, I'll leave it at that.
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« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2013, 10:48:24 PM »

A last thought and I shall also bow out of this thread.  Rapture-Left Behind-darling, Tim LaHaye, continues to add and develop this "teaching."  He now also teaches that the Jews will rebuild their temple and return to full blood animal sacrifices for atonement of their sins...and that this is a good thing.  One of his scriptural resources for this claim comes from our dear Psalm 50 (51). How is this anything short of blasphemy?  It is anti-christ ("instead of Christ") in nature.  Scary stuff.  Very scary stuff to teach that Christ's incarnation, passion, glorification and resurrection was not adequate or complete.  

eta:  I meant to include these links in an earlier post and, apparently, saw something shiny and forgot.  I tend to see shiny things.  My apologies.

http://www.antiochian.org/Orthodox_Church_Who_What_Where_Why/Who_Is_The_New_Israel.htm

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/03/bible-vs-modern-israel.html
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« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2013, 01:07:38 AM »

A fundamental point of separation between those who have accepted the rapture and those who have remained faithful to the "faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) is how "end times/last days" are understood, as well as the persecution, trials and tribulation that are promised by Christ to occur during this period.  As I stumble through, I ask that my Orthodox brethren will be gentle with me if my word choices aren't always the best.  At Pentecost, upon the descent of the Holy Spirit and the speaking of languages that were not the natural languages of the apostles, Peter provided a clear explanation.  "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days(emphasis mine), says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men will see visions..." (Acts 2: 14-17 NKJV)  He goes on to describe more, using very 'apocalyptic' terms, but for the sake of brevity I'll leave it at that.  The point is that we believe exactly what Peter is clearly stating, that the "end times"...the "last days"...began at that moment and that we have been living in the "last days" ever since and we will continue to live in it until Christ returns.  The history of the persecution of the Orthodox Church defends this as being the correct understanding.  Of course, this history is greatly unknown by many who belong to America's "unique" brand of Christianity.  When the saints and martyrs were discarded, the suffering went along with it and a blind eye turned to what has happened even in my own lifetime and is happening as I type.

Protestants see persecution and tribulation as being some yet future point, 7 earthly years in endurance.  They just can't figure out when or if they'll be around for it.  Much of their understanding of scripture is earth-bound.  Another example would be their understanding of "Israel" as being some earthly nation.  Rather than understanding that it is the Church and those who bless her will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed, they have adhered this to some random nation that America must blindly follow. The Orthodox Church understands this number (7) not in earthly terms, but in spiritual terms...fullness, completion...that began at Pentecost and will continue until Christ returns in glory. In other words, the point of separation between "them" and "us" begins long before "the rapture."  It begins nearly 2,000 years ago and not a couple of hundred years ago when Darby showed up with his ideas.

And, because I tend to get too wordy, I'll leave it at that.

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I love the simple eloquent, straightforward, yet powerful style of writing employed in this post. You should post more often  Wink
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« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2013, 02:23:38 PM »

A fundamental point of separation between those who have accepted the rapture and those who have remained faithful to the "faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) is how "end times/last days" are understood, as well as the persecution, trials and tribulation that are promised by Christ to occur during this period.  As I stumble through, I ask that my Orthodox brethren will be gentle with me if my word choices aren't always the best.  At Pentecost, upon the descent of the Holy Spirit and the speaking of languages that were not the natural languages of the apostles, Peter provided a clear explanation.  "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days(emphasis mine), says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men will see visions..." (Acts 2: 14-17 NKJV)  He goes on to describe more, using very 'apocalyptic' terms, but for the sake of brevity I'll leave it at that.  The point is that we believe exactly what Peter is clearly stating, that the "end times"...the "last days"...began at that moment and that we have been living in the "last days" ever since and we will continue to live in it until Christ returns.  The history of the persecution of the Orthodox Church defends this as being the correct understanding.  Of course, this history is greatly unknown by many who belong to America's "unique" brand of Christianity.  When the saints and martyrs were discarded, the suffering went along with it and a blind eye turned to what has happened even in my own lifetime and is happening as I type.

  you say that there is a fundamental difference in our eschatological understanding. In my experience, this is correct. You then go on to cite Peter's quotation of Joel and his designation of, 'the last days'. I have the impression that you intended this to be illustrative of our difference but it isn't. I don't resile for one moment from Peter's expressed view.

I do however fail to see how persecution of the Orthodox Church can logically form 'confirmation' of  this scripture. Christians of many denominations are persecuted all over the world. 'The last days' is not synonymous with the 'tribulation' if that was what you were intending to imply.

Quote
Protestants see persecution and tribulation as being some yet future point,

they see the tribulation as a distinct future event  for excellent scriptural reasons which, if enough people are interested, I will endeavour to explain. Most [hopefully] are well aware off the continuing persecution of the Body of Christ.
 
Quote
7 earthly years in endurance.  They just can't figure out when or if they'll be around for it.

well, Jesus himself said, "it  is not given to you to know the time, watch the signs". Those who didn't were unwise virgins!
Quote
 Much of their understanding of scripture is earth-bound.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. The Bible makes it clear that we are dealing with events on Earth as well as in Heaven when studying eschatology.

 
Quote
 Another example would be their understanding of "Israel" as being some earthly nation.

This  risks derailing the thread more than is already the case but, as a matter of simple observation, Israel is indeed a nation, re-established by a miracle as prophesied after a diaspora of 2000 years.

Quote
 Rather than understanding that it is the Church and those who bless her will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed,

this is scriptural - I'm not aware that it has been rescinded.

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they have adhered this to some random nation that America must blindly follow.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. God says he will deal with the nations who conspired to "divide my land". Your country and mine are heavily engaged in this to the detriment of both.

Quote
The Orthodox Church understands this number (7) not in earthly terms, but in spiritual terms...fullness, completion...that began at Pentecost and will continue until Christ returns in glory. In other words, the point of separation between "them" and "us" begins long before "the rapture."

I don't understand why you consider Peter's speech at Pentecost a "point of departure" between us. In fact in delineating the commencement of 'the last days', Peter is making a 'dispensational' statement!

 
Quote
 It begins nearly 2,000 years ago and not a couple of hundred years ago when Darby showed up with his ideas.

the presupposition behind this statement is that Darby, Schofield et al were developing a human construct rather than giving expression to an observation.. Examination of the issues suggests that the latter is actually the case.

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« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2013, 02:38:48 PM »



 
Quote
It begins nearly 2,000 years ago and not a couple of hundred years ago when Darby showed up with his ideas.

the presupposition behind this statement is that Darby, Schofield et al were developing a human construct rather than giving expression to an observation.. Examination of the issues suggests that the latter is actually the case.



Quote
As a system, dispensationalism is rooted in the Plymouth Brethren movement in the 1830s of Ireland and England, and in the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800–1882). The original concept came from Darby's interpretation of 2 Timothy 2:15, "...rightly dividing the word of truth".
From Wikipedia

Quote
John Nelson Darby is recognized as the father of dispensationalism,[1]:10,293 later made popular in the United States by Cyrus Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible. Charles Henry Mackintosh, 1820–1896, with his popular style spread Darby's teachings to humbler elements in society and may be regarded as the journalist of the Brethren Movement. Mackintosh popularized Darby more than any other Brethren author.
ibid

And also

Quote
As there was no Christian teaching of a "rapture" before Darby began preaching about it in the 1830s, he is sometimes credited with originating the "secret rapture" theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove his bride, the Church, from this world before the judgments of the tribulation.
ibid


I believe those show that Darby et al were developing a human construct. Examinations of the issue show this to be the case, unless one presupposes that the rapture is scriptural when "examining."
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