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Author Topic: Economic Hardships Contributing to Cohabitation?  (Read 1320 times) Average Rating: 0
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Luckster
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« on: April 11, 2013, 12:08:15 PM »

I work in retail management. I make enough that I can afford to pay my bills (including $400/month student loans), rent my own apartment, own my car, and have a few toys to play with. From a worldly perspective, I'm "successful", but using that same justification, most of my co-workers are not.  Retail is considered a "low wage, low skill" environment. Playing its employees $10/hour, a store rarely gives its employees full-time (40 hours) status; typically it's around 25-40% of its work force, while most receive 25-32 hours a week. Given the economic climate, many educated individuals have turned to the retail industry for work. But, with bills to pay and rising living expenses, young adults are turning towards moving in with their boyfriends/girlfriends, holding off on marriage, and producing children out of wedlock. 

There are studies available that indicate that cohabitation is on the rise, but they rarely explain why. From my limited experience, I would cite economic hardships. Although, how many Judge Judy cases involve cohabitating couples?  Someone bringing in $800 in take-home cash will struggle living on their own, as opposed to living with another. Not to mention, kids aren't stupid. They know there are certain...benefits...to living with boyfriend/girlfriend that a same-gender roommate can't provide.

Being raised in a conservative town and attending a religious college, it did come as a bit of a culture shock to me when I met dozens of cohabitating couples that had little to no interest in marriage, as opposed to my Lutheran friends who wanted to get married as quickly as possible. (Of course, it rightly could be argued that they were getting married for the wrong reasons.) But I digress.

The issue presents a corundum to Orthodox Christians. It's very easy to say, "Leave it all up to God," because as frail men we are prone to doubt and fear, as well as our own temptations and desires. My own cousin moved in with his finance a few months before their marriage for the reasons cited above.  I've often wondered if the option presented itself to me, which one I would choose. Certainly God provides, no one here will doubt that, but we live in a fallen world. There's no easy answer to this problem.
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2013, 12:25:56 PM »

But how is cohabitating less costly then being married? Same house, same two people, same bills.
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2013, 01:05:16 PM »


I agree with Tallitot.

The only reason I can see for them waiting...is that they can't afford the "big" wedding.

Who needs a big wedding?

That's just an excuse. 

Often times one or the other partner just doesn't wish to settle down.  I work with an "older" couple (both in their 50's) who cohabitate, and have no desire to get married.  They were both married at one time....and both divorced.  Both have their own children.  They'be been living together now for going on 8 or 9 years.  Her mother lives with them.  They even bought a new home, together.  They simply refuse to get married.

They are both not religious.  He doesn't believe in God, at all, and she's a lapsed RC.

THAT, I believe, is the crux of the matter.

If you don't believe that marriage is a holy sacrament of God, than why bother with it?



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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2013, 01:23:25 PM »

But how is cohabitating less costly then being married? Same house, same two people, same bills.
No one will disagree with that, but the argument isn't that to avoid the temptation, couples should get married. Rather, to avoid cohabitation, couples should remain apart, except the current economic climate is encouraging young couple to move in together.

THAT, I believe, is the crux of the matter.

If you don't believe that marriage is a holy sacrament of God, than why bother with it?
That isn't necessarily the case, as I mentioned earlier. I have a practicing Orthodox cousin who moved in with his finance (now wife) because of financial hardships. Certainly your point is relevant, and as Orthodox Christians, we should discuss how to promote marriage among cohabitating couples, but the prime motivator, from studies and personal experiences, is simply lack of funds.
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 01:33:51 PM »


I agree with Tallitot.

The only reason I can see for them waiting...is that they can't afford the "big" wedding.

Who needs a big wedding?

That's just an excuse. 

Often times one or the other partner just doesn't wish to settle down.  I work with an "older" couple (both in their 50's) who cohabitate, and have no desire to get married.  They were both married at one time....and both divorced.  Both have their own children.  They'be been living together now for going on 8 or 9 years.  Her mother lives with them.  They even bought a new home, together.  They simply refuse to get married.

They are both not religious.  He doesn't believe in God, at all, and she's a lapsed RC.

THAT, I believe, is the crux of the matter.

If you don't believe that marriage is a holy sacrament of God, than why bother with it?





I think the crux of the matter is the divorce end of the spectrum.  It is just too destructive.  With a 50% divorce rate you'd probably be better off playing Russian roulette.  It has better odds and at least with the 1-in-6 chance of redecorating your walls, you don't have to be around for the heartache and financial ruin that divorce often leaves behind.
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 01:57:28 PM »


I agree with Tallitot.

The only reason I can see for them waiting...is that they can't afford the "big" wedding.

Who needs a big wedding?

That's just an excuse. 

Often times one or the other partner just doesn't wish to settle down.  I work with an "older" couple (both in their 50's) who cohabitate, and have no desire to get married.  They were both married at one time....and both divorced.  Both have their own children.  They'be been living together now for going on 8 or 9 years.  Her mother lives with them.  They even bought a new home, together.  They simply refuse to get married.

They are both not religious.  He doesn't believe in God, at all, and she's a lapsed RC.

THAT, I believe, is the crux of the matter.

If you don't believe that marriage is a holy sacrament of God, than why bother with it?





I think the crux of the matter is the divorce end of the spectrum.  It is just too destructive.  With a 50% divorce rate you'd probably be better off playing Russian roulette.  It has better odds and at least with the 1-in-6 chance of redecorating your walls, you don't have to be around for the heartache and financial ruin that divorce often leaves behind.

yes, marriage is the only crime the innocent are punished for.  The divorce court sees to that.
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2013, 01:58:35 PM »

Yes, but, the breakup of a couple, even if not married, will always be painful.

Granted that due to divorce the financial price is greater, than had they simply parted ways....but, the heart ache is still the same.
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2013, 02:00:47 PM »

But how is cohabitating less costly then being married? Same house, same two people, same bills.
easy-no lawyer, and many are wise enough to know that.
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2013, 02:02:31 PM »


Yes, but, the breakup of a couple, even if not married, will always be painful.

Granted that due to divorce the financial price is greater, than had they simply parted ways....but, the heard ache is still the same.
No, unfortunately it is not. The divorce court makes sure that the knife keeps twisting.

I have a friend, a good and faithful Orthodox spouse, who basically has been compelled to support his ex and her lover shack-up, while they keep his daughters from him.  Marriage did him no good in protecting the rights of the father and his daughters, just a snare.
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2013, 02:07:22 PM »


If marriage is such a "negative" and burden....why are so many "same-sex" people looking to get married?

Aren't they suffering the same financial hardships as the straight folks?

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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2013, 02:09:36 PM »


If marriage is such a "negative" and burden....why are so many "same-sex" people looking to get married?

Aren't they suffering the same financial hardships as the straight folks?
answering about the redefinition of marriage, and the motives therein, might get political.

As for finances, most boast of their above average income, and the influence it brings (but to go into that more might get political).
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2013, 02:11:47 PM »


If marriage is such a "negative" and burden....why are so many "same-sex" people looking to get married?

Aren't they suffering the same financial hardships as the straight folks?



Don't you know every marriage is really, really horrible?

(Well, it isn't, but that's supposed to be the theme on this board. Wouldn't want to break up the hate-fest.)  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2013, 02:17:31 PM »


If marriage is such a "negative" and burden....why are so many "same-sex" people looking to get married?

Aren't they suffering the same financial hardships as the straight folks?



Don't you know every marriage is really, really horrible?

(Well, it isn't, but that's supposed to be the theme on this board. Wouldn't want to break up the hate-fest.)  Roll Eyes
Pre-nuptial agreements in IL used to be held as void and unenforceable, as they undermined marriage.  Such was the old law, and it was right.
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2013, 02:18:10 PM »

Well, it's unfortunately true for many.  They get their hearts broken, and then taken through the ringer by the court system....and if kids are involved this will go on and on and on....

However, I like to think of marriage as a blessing to two people who have fallen in love with each other.  A partner to go through life with.  Someone to hold you up when you need it, and for you to hold up, when they need it.  

Sometimes, there's nothing worse than being alone.

I think life is what you make it to be.

I don't think marriage ought to be approached as a negative, expecting divorce to be the final result.  

We go through life and we don't expect to get sick, lose a job, fall upon hardship, but, we do.

If we were afraid of being hurt, or being financially devastated, of being humiliated or ridiculed, we would never leave our homes.

Bad things happen to us, all the time....and yet, we muster on.  We look for a new job.  We go to the doctor to get cured, etc.  

Why is marriage so easy to "give up" on?
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2013, 02:20:51 PM »

I really can't say. I guess every marriage is different, because every life is different.

I don't want to make the flame-war worse than it already is. I just try to pray for other people more than I used to... the married people, and the not-married people too. There, that's the waterfront.  Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2013, 02:27:00 PM »


If marriage is such a "negative" and burden....why are so many "same-sex" people looking to get married?

Aren't they suffering the same financial hardships as the straight folks?



Don't you know every marriage is really, really horrible?

(Well, it isn't, but that's supposed to be the theme on this board. Wouldn't want to break up the hate-fest.)  Roll Eyes

There are plenty on here who have had good marriages, and I would love to hear stories about your happy marriage as well.  At the same time, I don't think it is good to flippantly disregard Isa's experiences.  It happens too much to be ignored.
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2013, 02:28:28 PM »


As for the co-habitation...let me give an example of a woman I worked with.

She has two grown daughters.  The one was married twice...divorced twice....with a kid from each marriage....and has now added a third child out of wedlock.  Both of her ex-husbands had found new woman and had kids, as well.

The other daughter lived with a man and bore him two sons, and has since broken up.....he's remarried, to another woman with a child.  She has now hooked up with another man, who has three of his own kids.

I have to make a chart to keep track of the drama.

In the end.....everyone is miserable and unhappy.  Seriously.  The daughters haven't learned from past mistakes, and are still jumping in to bed with men whom refuse to commit to them, or their children....and are only producing more kids from these unions.

Each one is on some form of federal assistance, because they never finished school, and have no stable career.  The men refuse to pay child support and are also either unemployed, or paid under the table.

The kids are one weekend here...the next there....middle of the week this grandma has them, but, she doesn't want the other brother because he's not her son's son....

Seriously.  It's a mess.

....and when I mentioned to the woman I worked with (the grandmother of 5 of these children - born of 2 women, and 4 men) why her daughters don't either settle down, or just resign to live "alone".....she rolls her eyes at me....as if I don't understand the ways of life.  This woman, herself, stole a married man, and was pregnant before married, then had three kids (her son somehow has managed to steer clear of all the drama, and hasn't fathered any children)...only to have another woman, steel her husband (whom she stole from another) from her.

At least, if they were married, there would be some "order" to this nonsense.

My heart breaks for all these mismatched kids.


However, as I've often been told....I don't know anything about it, as I'm not married, nor cohabitating, and therefore, have no real experience.
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2013, 02:32:46 PM »


If marriage is such a "negative" and burden....why are so many "same-sex" people looking to get married?

Aren't they suffering the same financial hardships as the straight folks?



Don't you know every marriage is really, really horrible?

(Well, it isn't, but that's supposed to be the theme on this board. Wouldn't want to break up the hate-fest.)  Roll Eyes

There are plenty on here who have had good marriages, and I would love to hear stories about your happy marriage as well.  At the same time, I don't think it is good to flippantly disregard Isa's experiences.  It happens too much to be ignored.

I don't disregard his experience. I'm just saying it's not the only one out there.
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2013, 02:35:03 PM »


If marriage is such a "negative" and burden....why are so many "same-sex" people looking to get married?

Aren't they suffering the same financial hardships as the straight folks?



Don't you know every marriage is really, really horrible?

(Well, it isn't, but that's supposed to be the theme on this board. Wouldn't want to break up the hate-fest.)  Roll Eyes

There are plenty on here who have had good marriages, and I would love to hear stories about your happy marriage as well.  At the same time, I don't think it is good to flippantly disregard Isa's experiences.  It happens too much to be ignored.

I would never disrespect Isa.  I know that there are vicious people out there. ....and that divorce is not a pretty thing.  

I myself, am the product of divorced parents.  My mother finally couldn't take it anymore (back in the early 70's) and filed for divorce.  It was UGLY.
I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

My mother vowed to never remarry, simply because she believed in the sanctity of marriage....and it killed her to have to go through a divorce.  Many, many nights I awoke to see her crying over her Bible.

What was worse of all...was church life.  Most of the parishioners were dad's drinking buddies....and we suffered more than one insult, cold shoulder, disdainful look.....we were pretty much ostracized.  

My mother, thank God she is so strong, would simply take us both by the hand and every Sunday march us in to church and stand up front, ignoring all the knives being thrown at our backs.  

We were ridiculed in our church school, my mom was called all kinds of names, etc.  Simply horrible.  ....and she did nothing wrong.  She was the victim.

Needless to say, over time, it slowly quieted down.  It took years.   ...and only in the last decade have our "enemies" changed their colors and accepted us on our own merits.

I don't wish divorce on anyone...especially the children of that marriage.

Folks, if you are divorced/getting divorced, etc....please, try to be civil to each other...at least for the kids' sake.
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2013, 02:52:17 PM »


If marriage is such a "negative" and burden....why are so many "same-sex" people looking to get married?

Aren't they suffering the same financial hardships as the straight folks?



Don't you know every marriage is really, really horrible?

(Well, it isn't, but that's supposed to be the theme on this board. Wouldn't want to break up the hate-fest.)  Roll Eyes

There are plenty on here who have had good marriages, and I would love to hear stories about your happy marriage as well.  At the same time, I don't think it is good to flippantly disregard Isa's experiences.  It happens too much to be ignored.

I would never disrespect Isa.  I know that there are vicious people out there. ....and that divorce is not a pretty thing.  

I myself, am the product of divorced parents.  My mother finally couldn't take it anymore (back in the early 70's) and filed for divorce.  It was UGLY.
I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

My mother vowed to never remarry, simply because she believed in the sanctity of marriage....and it killed her to have to go through a divorce.  Many, many nights I awoke to see her crying over her Bible.

What was worse of all...was church life.  Most of the parishioners were dad's drinking buddies....and we suffered more than one insult, cold shoulder, disdainful look.....we were pretty much ostracized.  

My mother, thank God she is so strong, would simply take us both by the hand and every Sunday march us in to church and stand up front, ignoring all the knives being thrown at our backs.  

We were ridiculed in our church school, my mom was called all kinds of names, etc.  Simply horrible.  ....and she did nothing wrong.  She was the victim.

Needless to say, over time, it slowly quieted down.  It took years.   ...and only in the last decade have our "enemies" changed their colors and accepted us on our own merits.

I don't wish divorce on anyone...especially the children of that marriage.

Folks, if you are divorced/getting divorced, etc....please, try to be civil to each other...at least for the kids' sake.


I have been trying to write a response to two of your posts for a while now but I am pretty much speechless.  This post makes me feel like this:  Cry
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2013, 02:54:49 PM »


As for the co-habitation...let me give an example of a woman I worked with.

She has two grown daughters.  The one was married twice...divorced twice....with a kid from each marriage....and has now added a third child out of wedlock.  Both of her ex-husbands had found new woman and had kids, as well.

The other daughter lived with a man and bore him two sons, and has since broken up.....he's remarried, to another woman with a child.  She has now hooked up with another man, who has three of his own kids.

I have to make a chart to keep track of the drama.

In the end.....everyone is miserable and unhappy.  Seriously.  The daughters haven't learned from past mistakes, and are still jumping in to bed with men whom refuse to commit to them, or their children....and are only producing more kids from these unions.

Each one is on some form of federal assistance, because they never finished school, and have no stable career.  The men refuse to pay child support and are also either unemployed, or paid under the table.

The kids are one weekend here...the next there....middle of the week this grandma has them, but, she doesn't want the other brother because he's not her son's son....

Seriously.  It's a mess.

....and when I mentioned to the woman I worked with (the grandmother of 5 of these children - born of 2 women, and 4 men) why her daughters don't either settle down, or just resign to live "alone".....she rolls her eyes at me....as if I don't understand the ways of life.  This woman, herself, stole a married man, and was pregnant before married, then had three kids (her son somehow has managed to steer clear of all the drama, and hasn't fathered any children)...only to have another woman, steel her husband (whom she stole from another) from her.

At least, if they were married, there would be some "order" to this nonsense.

My heart breaks for all these mismatched kids.


However, as I've often been told....I don't know anything about it, as I'm not married, nor cohabitating, and therefore, have no real experience.


I am somewhat less speechless regarding this.

In short, those two women are unmarriable.  You pretty much catalogue all the reasons why no decent man would want to be with them.  As for the pieces of crap they are left with...well, pieces of crap gonna act like pieces of crap.

And speaking of poo, I guess after hearing about their mother, the horse apple don't fall far from the horse, eh?
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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2013, 03:02:59 PM »

What difference does it make? If anything, wouldn't marriage benefit them even more because they get tax deductions? I think people cohabit because they are afraid of committment, selfish and want the freedom to leave whenever things get rocky and don't have to share their assets. My parents may have fornicated and had me pretty young, but they still married the moment they turned 18.
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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2013, 03:04:59 PM »

Bottom line, try to avoid cohabiting if at all possible. Don't let someone be a financial burden to you.

It's not surprising to see people move in together to bring the cost of living down, but you always have to think about if that other person loses their job, could you pick up the slack and make ends meet?

I personally will never cohabit again. I would need to be married first.
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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2013, 03:06:27 PM »

What difference does it make? If anything, wouldn't marriage benefit them even more because they get tax deductions? I think people cohabit because they are afraid of committment and divorce, selfish and want the freedom to leave whenever things get rocky and don't have to share their assets. My parents may have fornicated and had me pretty young, but they still married the moment they turned 18.

Just a minor addition.
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2013, 03:13:15 PM »

What difference does it make? If anything, wouldn't marriage benefit them even more because they get tax deductions? I think people cohabit because they are afraid of committment and divorce, selfish and want the freedom to leave whenever things get rocky and don't have to share their assets. My parents may have fornicated and had me pretty young, but they still married the moment they turned 18.

Just a minor addition.

LOL

I know it's pretty wrong, but when I went to Protestant School, I remember all the middle aged wealthy people used to tell us how it's so bad to rush into marriage when you are a teenager or to get pregnant as a teenager, and I always took it as a personal insult to me and my parents. But then, most of those people now are still divorced whereas my parents are still married. I laughed in many of those peoples' faces after their marriages failed.  Grin
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2013, 03:26:35 PM »

At least, if they were married, there would be some "order" to this nonsense.

I am not sure about that. In Ukraine, many people are in their second or third marriage and I'm not sure if it's that much more orderly... actually, the main wedding registry in Kyiv* is called the Bermuda triangle, because virtually all marriage concluded there, will sink, just as ships in the Bermuda triangle.


*In Ukraine, as in most of Europe, a church wedding is not sufficient to be legally married. Therefore, it is usual, to go to the state registry and then to Church.
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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2013, 03:27:01 PM »

Heterogenous society contributing to cohabitation. It was easier in the past when everyone married within their own social class, society was more stable and gender roles were more fixed. No need to test anything before marriage.
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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2013, 03:28:46 PM »

At least, if they were married, there would be some "order" to this nonsense.

I am not sure about that. In Ukraine, many people are in their second or third marriage and I'm not sure if it's that much more orderly... actually, the main wedding registry in Kyiv* is called the Bermuda triangle, because virtually all marriage concluded there, will sink, just as ships in the Bermuda triangle.


*In Ukraine, as in most of Europe, a church wedding is not sufficient to be legally married. Therefore, it is usual, to go to the state registry and then to Church.
ROFL
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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2013, 03:35:24 PM »

What difference does it make? If anything, wouldn't marriage benefit them even more because they get tax deductions? I think people cohabit because they are afraid of committment and divorce, selfish and want the freedom to leave whenever things get rocky and don't have to share their assets. My parents may have fornicated and had me pretty young, but they still married the moment they turned 18.

Just a minor addition.

LOL

I know it's pretty wrong, but when I went to Protestant School, I remember all the middle aged wealthy people used to tell us how it's so bad to rush into marriage when you are a teenager or to get pregnant as a teenager, and I always took it as a personal insult to me and my parents. But then, most of those people now are still divorced whereas my parents are still married. I laughed in many of those peoples' faces after their marriages failed.  Grin

Ya know, I have seen a bit of a pattern of rushed marriages lasting decades and well thought out and planned marriages falling apart.

A friend of my bro's dated a girl for 8 years.  They were married for 8 months before she divorced him.  (She was sleeping around a few months earlier, blowing his 10k in savings in the process).

My parents started dating, got engaged, and married within a matter of months.  Three decades in counting.

I think the common factor in many of these marriages worked was that neither party really saw divorce as an option and thus were willing to work through the bad times.  As for the speed of getting married, if you don't really see divorce as a possibility and just assume that you are going to be with that person hell or high water, what use really is there in waiting?

A friend of mine who I have been talking to for a while said that she will almost not consider a man for dating if he came from a broken family because to him, divorce is always an option.  Her parents had no choice in their marriage (they lived in India).  Their dads were friends and pretty much decided that the two would be married.  They shared a couple letters and some photographs and went on a couple supervised dates and then were married.  They have been together going on four decades.  She says that her parents' relationship with each other is her model for how married people should be.
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« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2013, 03:36:23 PM »

Heterogenous society contributing to cohabitation. It was easier in the past when everyone married within their own social class, society was more stable and gender roles were more fixed. No need to test anything before marriage.

And there's that.
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« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2013, 03:37:34 PM »

Heterogenous society contributing to cohabitation. It was easier in the past when everyone married within their own social class, society was more stable and gender roles were more fixed. No need to test anything before marriage.
only problem is that if you test you fail the test. The divorce rates for cohabitators who marry (leaving aside those who just move out without ever coming to the altar) are far worse than the average.
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« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2013, 03:55:25 PM »

Well, it's unfortunately true for many.  They get their hearts broken, and then taken through the ringer by the court system....and if kids are involved this will go on and on and on....

However, I like to think of marriage as a blessing to two people who have fallen in love with each other.  A partner to go through life with.  Someone to hold you up when you need it, and for you to hold up, when they need it.  

Sometimes, there's nothing worse than being alone.

I think life is what you make it to be.

I don't think marriage ought to be approached as a negative, expecting divorce to be the final result.  

We go through life and we don't expect to get sick, lose a job, fall upon hardship, but, we do.

If we were afraid of being hurt, or being financially devastated, of being humiliated or ridiculed, we would never leave our homes.

Bad things happen to us, all the time....and yet, we muster on.  We look for a new job.  We go to the doctor to get cured, etc.  

Why is marriage so easy to "give up" on?

because of the inducement to do so is so richly rewarded.

That's the problem.  If fault was put back into the divorce process, i.e. you had to give a reason why to dissolve the marriage, and a substantive one at that (as is being attempted with covenant marriages in AK and LA), and mandate a presumption of joint custody (and in more than name), a lot of the tide would be turned.
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2013, 03:55:55 PM »

Heterogenous society contributing to cohabitation. It was easier in the past when everyone married within their own social class, society was more stable and gender roles were more fixed. No need to test anything before marriage.
only problem is that if you test you fail the test. The divorce rates for cohabitators who marry (leaving aside those who just move out without ever coming to the altar) are far worse than the average.

I think that is what he is getting at.  There is no need to test when you have a good expectation of what you are and are not going to get in a marriage.  One thing visible in our culture is the wide variety of marriages there are.  Of your 50% divorces you have some which are amicable - both parties just go their own ways, often with no children getting mixed up in it, and others are living hell.  Of the 50% marriages that don't end in divorce, some of these will be successful and stable and others will be absolutely miserable.  If you are in a society where men and women both have roles in the marriage and there exists sufficient social stigma on those who don't live up to these standards, people will have to find a way to make things work or else everyone else will make their life a living hell.
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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2013, 04:04:08 PM »

Heterogenous society contributing to cohabitation. It was easier in the past when everyone married within their own social class, society was more stable and gender roles were more fixed. No need to test anything before marriage.
only problem is that if you test you fail the test. The divorce rates for cohabitators who marry (leaving aside those who just move out without ever coming to the altar) are far worse than the average.

I think that is what he is getting at.  There is no need to test when you have a good expectation of what you are and are not going to get in a marriage.  One thing visible in our culture is the wide variety of marriages there are.  Of your 50% divorces you have some which are amicable - both parties just go their own ways, often with no children getting mixed up in it, and others are living hell.  Of the 50% marriages that don't end in divorce, some of these will be successful and stable and others will be absolutely miserable.  If you are in a society where men and women both have roles in the marriage and there exists sufficient social stigma on those who don't live up to these standards, people will have to find a way to make things work or else everyone else will make their life a living hell.
That's exactly the point: society and the culture of self all move to break up marriages, instead of society in all the myriads of ways it used to support marriage, doesn't.

The problem is most people are entering marriage with the idea-and goal-"now, what am I going to get out of this."  typical of this day and age in all things.
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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2013, 04:27:58 PM »

Heterogenous society contributing to cohabitation. It was easier in the past when everyone married within their own social class, society was more stable and gender roles were more fixed. No need to test anything before marriage.
only problem is that if you test you fail the test. The divorce rates for cohabitators who marry (leaving aside those who just move out without ever coming to the altar) are far worse than the average.

I think that is what he is getting at.  There is no need to test when you have a good expectation of what you are and are not going to get in a marriage.  One thing visible in our culture is the wide variety of marriages there are.  Of your 50% divorces you have some which are amicable - both parties just go their own ways, often with no children getting mixed up in it, and others are living hell.  Of the 50% marriages that don't end in divorce, some of these will be successful and stable and others will be absolutely miserable.  If you are in a society where men and women both have roles in the marriage and there exists sufficient social stigma on those who don't live up to these standards, people will have to find a way to make things work or else everyone else will make their life a living hell.
That's exactly the point: society and the culture of self all move to break up marriages, instead of society in all the myriads of ways it used to support marriage, doesn't.

The problem is most people are entering marriage with the idea-and goal-"now, what am I going to get out of this."  typical of this day and age in all things.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying. I was not trying to argue why people should cohabitate before marriage. Rather, I was saying that the situation is not that simple that old-fashioned Christians make it out to be. It's not only about selfish individuals but cultural flux. For example questions like what kind of food to eat, what is considered attractive and what kind of furnitures to buy used to have a lot less answers due to lack of different options.
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« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2013, 10:00:36 PM »

I CANNOT believe what I am reading here!
Just because I am a catechumen does not mean I am stupid. My stupidity is simply a part of me, but his discussion is off the hook!
Marriage v cohabitation: It is only an issue of rationality!

There are a hundred 'reasons' to sin, OK, I lied, a THOUSAND 'reasons' to sin and as sex is one of THE MOST primary, and first commandment (be fruitful and multiply; Gen 1:28), we find all manners of lying to ourselves and each other in order to "co-habitat".
I know folks that do not speak the national language that are making it in the world and working without 'benefits'.
Prior to this selfish generation one traveled to where there was gainful employment, which took effort; are we so spoiled now that we want what we want here and now? And I am only speaking of America, as I trust what I read and cannot know how conditions are in other parts of this world.

As for the homosexuals petitioning the law to change our language, those are MORE lies and straight from hell itself.
As Orthodox who love The Word AND study the words we have now, one realizes that the meanings we find IN life are in the words.
The utter oxymoron of stating 'homosexual marriage' is a self-evident impossibility, and to use it defeats only ourselves.

One of the things I find lovely in Orthodoxy is the notion of Mystery, as in Marriage. For those of us who are married we giggle (insight into the Mystery) when we see other married couples and wonder, "how COULD they stand or enjoy one-another" or maybe, "how could they ever...". And when we think of our own marriage we realize being together IS a mystery.
Truth is, there is no mystery about cohabitation. It is simply laziness coupled with hormones.
To say loneliness is a reason, that is what friends are for, and as one is seeking God, and singleness is the only path offered, then life can be harder for some. But to choose sin is simply (or not so simply) a choice, and economy, loneliness, or 'reason' is not answer to such.

Lord, forgive us all, sinners.


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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2013, 10:17:18 PM »

Heterogenous society contributing to cohabitation. It was easier in the past when everyone married within their own social class, society was more stable and gender roles were more fixed. No need to test anything before marriage.
only problem is that if you test you fail the test. The divorce rates for cohabitators who marry (leaving aside those who just move out without ever coming to the altar) are far worse than the average.

I think that is what he is getting at.  There is no need to test when you have a good expectation of what you are and are not going to get in a marriage.  One thing visible in our culture is the wide variety of marriages there are.  Of your 50% divorces you have some which are amicable - both parties just go their own ways, often with no children getting mixed up in it, and others are living hell.  Of the 50% marriages that don't end in divorce, some of these will be successful and stable and others will be absolutely miserable.  If you are in a society where men and women both have roles in the marriage and there exists sufficient social stigma on those who don't live up to these standards, people will have to find a way to make things work or else everyone else will make their life a living hell.
That's exactly the point: society and the culture of self all move to break up marriages, instead of society in all the myriads of ways it used to support marriage, doesn't.

The problem is most people are entering marriage with the idea-and goal-"now, what am I going to get out of this."  typical of this day and age in all things.
100% agree.
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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2013, 10:48:49 PM »


I agree with Tallitot.

The only reason I can see for them waiting...is that they can't afford the "big" wedding.

Who needs a big wedding?

That's just an excuse. 

Often times one or the other partner just doesn't wish to settle down.  I work with an "older" couple (both in their 50's) who cohabitate, and have no desire to get married.  They were both married at one time....and both divorced.  Both have their own children.  They'be been living together now for going on 8 or 9 years.  Her mother lives with them.  They even bought a new home, together.  They simply refuse to get married.

They are both not religious.  He doesn't believe in God, at all, and she's a lapsed RC.

THAT, I believe, is the crux of the matter.

If you don't believe that marriage is a holy sacrament of God, than why bother with it?





You are right Liza.  Two persons I know would not get married because they couldn't afford it (yet cohabitated).  I told them that I (Panimatka and I) would pay for all the fees necessary.  As for the argument for divorce, they (now, years later) can more than afford a decent divorce now, but Lord willing, they will stay together and work things out. 
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« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2013, 11:12:37 PM »

But how is cohabitating less costly then being married? Same house, same two people, same bills.

Cohabitation is much less costly than living by yourself and supporting yourself financially by yourself.

It's not possible for a single person to work at minimum wage getting 20-30 hrs a week and be able to pay rent for their own apartment, own their own car (payments if necessary, gas, maintenance, insurance), buy their own food, and pay for electricity. That's not counting any telephone (home or cell) service, internet service, health care, or unexpected expenses that  may come up.

EDIT: That's not counting being in a situation where one is between jobs.
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« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2013, 11:17:51 PM »

But how is cohabitating less costly then being married? Same house, same two people, same bills.

Cohabitation is much less costly than living by yourself and supporting yourself financially by yourself.

It's not possible for a single person to work at minimum wage getting 20-30 hrs a week and be able to pay rent for their own apartment, own their own car (payments if necessary, gas, maintenance, insurance), buy their own food, and pay for electricity. That's not counting any telephone (home or cell) service, internet service, health care, or unexpected expenses that  may come up.

EDIT: That's not counting being in a situation where one is between jobs.
Yep. Which is why you either eliminate wage slavery or pay livable wages.

A full time person on mininum wage will not make ends meet on their own.
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« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2013, 12:26:13 AM »

But how is cohabitating less costly then being married? Same house, same two people, same bills.

Cohabitation is much less costly than living by yourself and supporting yourself financially by yourself.

It's not possible for a single person to work at minimum wage getting 20-30 hrs a week and be able to pay rent for their own apartment, own their own car (payments if necessary, gas, maintenance, insurance), buy their own food, and pay for electricity. That's not counting any telephone (home or cell) service, internet service, health care, or unexpected expenses that  may come up.

EDIT: That's not counting being in a situation where one is between jobs.
Yep. Which is why you either eliminate wage slavery or pay livable wages.

A full time person on mininum wage will not make ends meet on their own.

The biggest problem is that our money is worthless.  It wouldn't matter if minimum wage went up to $20/hr.  That would be great for a couple weeks until halfthe companies closed their doors or adjusted the prices until $20 would have the same buying power as $5 does.

You can throw more money at it but inflation will just rise up to meet it.  I would love to go back to $1.25/hr, so long as we were paid in silver quarters.  Five quarters of silver is worth more than the $16 I get now in paper. 

Otherwise, if we could get more money in the hands of people rather than Uncle Sam we could actually go out and buy stuff, allowing companies to hire more people.  But as long as spending is down less people are going to have jobs and less are going to get raises.
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« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2013, 12:55:33 AM »

Nope. Executives would no longer receive extravagant bonuses for exploiting the workers an the labor they produce. Do away with serving the shareholders.
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« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2013, 01:09:14 AM »

Nope. Executives would no longer receive extravagant bonuses for exploiting the workers an the labor they produce. Do away with serving the shareholders.

Nope. Executives would still receive extravagant bonuses for exploiting workers' labour. Only difference is that it would be in Mexico or some other backwards third world country where the population doesn't mind being paid a nickel an hour.
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« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2013, 01:19:33 AM »


I agree with Tallitot.

The only reason I can see for them waiting...is that they can't afford the "big" wedding.

Who needs a big wedding?

Not necessarily true.  Besides, most cohabitors prefer to pay for their own wedding without help from family.

Often times one or the other partner just doesn't wish to settle down.  I work with an "older" couple (both in their 50's) who cohabitate, and have no desire to get married.  They were both married at one time....and both divorced.  Both have their own children.  They'be been living together now for going on 8 or 9 years.  Her mother lives with them.  They even bought a new home, together.  They simply refuse to get married.

They are both not religious.  He doesn't believe in God, at all, and she's a lapsed RC.

I knew a couple who cohabited and even bought a house together.  They broke up.  She lives in the house and makes no mortgage payments while allowing her bank accounts to go negative.  He doesn't help her even though his credit has been affected by the late mortgage.  In MD, banks have to go through hoops and hurdles to foreclose on someone.

If you don't believe that marriage is a holy sacrament of God, than why bother with it?

Your friends grew up during the roaring 80's, the pensive 90's, the uncertain 00's and whatever this decade has in store.  The only thing certain is death.  Hopefully your friends spent a lot of money on powers of attorney to determine what happens if one becomes incapacitated or dies.
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« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2013, 01:28:49 AM »

Personally, I've always thought that the tradition of having a huge wedding which can range anywhere from $20,000-$100,000 is incredibly stupid to be honest. With all that money, wouldn't it be more prudent to instead spend it on a house, car, baby-supplies (if you plan on having children), your remaining debt or something that will actually benefit you opposed to a big stupid celebration full of people you hardly know that are only there for free alcohol?
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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James, you have problemz.
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