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Author Topic: Coptic position on salvation of Catholics and Protestants  (Read 915 times) Average Rating: 0
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Trebor135
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« on: April 10, 2013, 02:27:51 AM »

I've read on OC that Coptic hierarches have expressed doubts about whether Catholics and Protestants will be saved. I didn't really find much more information beyond that, though.

If there are any Arabic-speaking participants who can read sources not accessible to most readers... I'd like to know what the specific reasons for this stance are, unsettlingly strict as it seems to a Westerner raised in a post-modern society.
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2013, 02:36:56 AM »

a Westerner raised in a post-modern society.

What does that have to do with postmodernism?

As to the comments, such comments reflect an extremely minority position.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 02:37:30 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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Trebor135
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2013, 02:52:12 AM »

 
a Westerner raised in a post-modern society.

What does that have to do with postmodernism?

Postmodernists will say that all beliefs are equal and reality is subjective, so condemning others to hell is arrogant and unloving. That kind of philosophy prevails in Canada and it affects even me, a practicing Christian.

Quote
As to the comments, such comments reflect an extremely minority position.

But the late Pope Shenouda III and Bishop Bishoy apparently are known as being in that camp. Are they fringe elements? Tongue
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 02:54:32 AM by Trebor135 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2013, 10:49:47 AM »

HH Pope Shenouda clearly stated there no salvation outside the Orthodox Church, that the Orthodox Church is the "straight" path to heaven.  From this you can deduce 2 camps, which I will represent with the names of 2 prominent bishops:

HE Metropolitan Bishoy believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church, is a straight path to hell.
HG Bishop Moussa believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church has a "zigzag" path to heaven.

So, there really isn't a clear view on this.
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2013, 12:19:06 PM »

HH Pope Shenouda clearly stated there no salvation outside the Orthodox Church, that the Orthodox Church is the "straight" path to heaven.  From this you can deduce 2 camps, which I will represent with the names of 2 prominent bishops:

HE Metropolitan Bishoy believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church, is a straight path to hell.
HG Bishop Moussa believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church has a "zigzag" path to heaven.

So, there really isn't a clear view on this.

OK.

What does a "'zigzag' path" mean in practical terms though? That it's difficult but not impossible for someone taking it to reach heaven?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 12:19:49 PM by Trebor135 » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2013, 12:47:35 PM »

HH Pope Shenouda clearly stated there no salvation outside the Orthodox Church, that the Orthodox Church is the "straight" path to heaven.  From this you can deduce 2 camps, which I will represent with the names of 2 prominent bishops:

HE Metropolitan Bishoy believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church, is a straight path to hell.
HG Bishop Moussa believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church has a "zigzag" path to heaven.

So, there really isn't a clear view on this.

OK.

What does a "'zigzag' path" mean in practical terms though? That it's difficult but not impossible for someone taking it to reach heaven?
I assume it's His Grace's way of espousing the famous Kallistian phrase "we know where the Church is, we do not know where it isn't". Zigzag can also mean it's easy to stray.
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2013, 01:00:31 PM »

HG Bishop Moussa believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church has a "zigzag" path to heaven.

So, they eventually get there it just may take longer and be more difficult?  Sounds like Purgatory to me.  police
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2013, 01:04:50 PM »

HE Metropolitan Bishoy believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church, is a straight path to hell.

What is "the Orthodox Church"? The Oriental Orthodox Communion?
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2013, 01:08:52 PM »

HE Metropolitan Bishoy believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church, is a straight path to hell.

What is "the Orthodox Church"? The Oriental Orthodox Communion?

Probably, though I've heard some (ignorant) folks claim there was no salvation outside the "Coptic" Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2013, 01:36:31 PM »

HG Bishop Moussa believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church has a "zigzag" path to heaven.

So, they eventually get there it just may take longer and be more difficult?  Sounds like Purgatory to me.  police
Not necessarily...our church has voiced unanimous opposition against "purgatory".

See my previous post above.
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2013, 03:42:22 PM »

I assume it's His Grace's way of espousing the famous Kallistian phrase "we know where the Church is, we do not know where it isn't". Zigzag can also mean it's easy to stray.

Which Catholic doctrines, according to Bishop Moussa and the like, cause that Church's faithful to be in such a tenuous position?
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2013, 03:44:07 PM »

our church has voiced unanimous opposition against "purgatory".

What understanding of purgatory was condemned?
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2013, 03:46:48 PM »

our church has voiced unanimous opposition against "purgatory".

What understanding of purgatory was condemned?

Here's a pretty thorough article on the subject from the Coptic Orthodox Southern United States Diocese.
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2013, 07:30:09 PM »


Postmodernists will say that all beliefs are equal
I'm not so sure about that.
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2013, 07:39:58 PM »


Postmodernists will say that all beliefs are equal
I'm not so sure about that.

Well, their worldview is incoherent because its adherents will say, "The belief that all beliefs are not equal is the single belief that is not of equal value to other beliefs." But you may be alluding to something else...
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2013, 07:42:09 PM »

our church has voiced unanimous opposition against "purgatory".

What understanding of purgatory was condemned?

Here's a pretty thorough article on the subject from the Coptic Orthodox Southern United States Diocese.

Thanks for the link. Is purgatory one of the doctrines that leads Bishop Bishoy to conclude that Catholics are lost?
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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2013, 08:04:24 PM »

HH Pope Shenouda clearly stated there no salvation outside the Orthodox Church, that the Orthodox Church is the "straight" path to heaven.  From this you can deduce 2 camps, which I will represent with the names of 2 prominent bishops:

HE Metropolitan Bishoy believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church, is a straight path to hell.
HG Bishop Moussa believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church has a "zigzag" path to heaven.

So, there really isn't a clear view on this.

For the record, you can find both of these views in the EO Church as well.

Out of curiosity, what do both Met. Bishoy and Bp. Moussa have to say about the EO Church, since this thread is otherwise directed to speaking about Catholics and Protestants?
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2013, 08:18:49 PM »



Well, their worldview is incoherent because its adherents will say, "The belief that all beliefs are not equal is the single belief that is not of equal value to other beliefs."
I think that's what some poor-thinking modernists say. But postmodernism has nothing to do with it.
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2013, 08:57:35 PM »

our church has voiced unanimous opposition against "purgatory".

What understanding of purgatory was condemned?

Here's a pretty thorough article on the subject from the Coptic Orthodox Southern United States Diocese.

Thanks for the link. Is purgatory one of the doctrines that leads Bishop Bishoy to conclude that Catholics are lost?
bishop bishoy is lost , do you believe in offering your prayers  for those that have passed away with the hope of helping them? if yes how can you help them unless there's purgatory...purgatory is biblical
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2013, 09:15:12 PM »

HH Pope Shenouda clearly stated there no salvation outside the Orthodox Church, that the Orthodox Church is the "straight" path to heaven.  From this you can deduce 2 camps, which I will represent with the names of 2 prominent bishops:

HE Metropolitan Bishoy believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church, is a straight path to hell.
HG Bishop Moussa believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church has a "zigzag" path to heaven.

So, there really isn't a clear view on this.

For the record, you can find both of these views in the EO Church as well.

Who in the E Orthodox Church says that all Catholics will go straight to hell, regardless of whatever good they have done on earth?
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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2013, 09:29:44 PM »

HH Pope Shenouda clearly stated there no salvation outside the Orthodox Church, that the Orthodox Church is the "straight" path to heaven.  From this you can deduce 2 camps, which I will represent with the names of 2 prominent bishops:

HE Metropolitan Bishoy believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church, is a straight path to hell.
HG Bishop Moussa believes anyone outside the Orthodox Church has a "zigzag" path to heaven.

So, there really isn't a clear view on this.

For the record, you can find both of these views in the EO Church as well.

Out of curiosity, what do both Met. Bishoy and Bp. Moussa have to say about the EO Church, since this thread is otherwise directed to speaking about Catholics and Protestants?
They both seem to be much more amicable with Eastern Orthodox, giving the possibility that the one church may include them.
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2013, 09:31:52 PM »

Ummm...Papacy, Filioque, Purgatory, Indulgences, Immaculate Conception are usually the main doctrines that present Coptic heirarchs have voiced complete opposition against.  I'm not debating the issues in essence, but just mentioning what doctrines the Coptic Church has beef with.  Neither am I going to say if anyone is "lost" or not.  That's not the point of this thread, at least I hope.

In addition, I have my personal disagreements with His Eminence as well, which I've expressed elsewhere here.
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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