OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 24, 2014, 12:32:55 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Feminism could destroy Russia, Patriarch Kirill claims. You're opinion?  (Read 1763 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,796



« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2013, 12:02:06 PM »

I think that we have to be careful here. It seems to me that this word "feminism" means different things to different folks.

If it means radical feminism, I would certainly agree with Patriarch Kirill.

If it means the right of women to work outside of home, I would not agree, unless a woman elevates her career over her other roles in a radical and self-conscious way. OTOH, that is a problem for men as well; one should not place a career over Church and family. Indeed, I submit that men are more guilty of this than women.

If it means the right of women to emulate the worst traits and practices of men in the name of equality, I would agree with HH Kirill.

If it means the right of women not to be raped, beaten, abused and otherwise maltreated by men, I would not agree.

Indeed, Carl, it does seem to have different meanings.  One question is do some of the meanings have real examples?  Or is the term meant to be some kind of insult directed at persons who the speaker/writer doesn't like?  And then there are the modifiers like "radical".  For some who wrote the impression is that any form is to be declared as terrible.  How do assertions like it is all about "me me me" have anything to do with real human beings?

So what is a "radical feminist" as opposed to one who is not?
How are people who try to stop rape, abuse and maltreatment of others doing things that are not "moral"?  Setting up a "straw woman" doesn't make a case nor address some of the very real problems and concerns such as those that you mentioned.

What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  

and in history there have been plenty of women who were quite moral who also expressed sentiments that "differentiated them from a doormat"


Sorry, I should have been clearer. By radical feminists I think of folks who hate men, and/or insist that there are no differences between men and women. This is opposed to radical men and women who espouse extreme political and ideological convictions and actions.

Here is a fairly decent wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism

Here is another article that lists 17 (!) different variants of feminism. (I suppose my very simplistic characterizations are woefully inadequate).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movements_and_ideologies
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,133


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2013, 02:44:06 PM »

...The family never existed....

*Hides in corner with popcorn*

You're really in for it now, just wait till J Michael and Charles Martel see this post...  Grin

Okay...I just saw it (takes me a while sometimes  Wink).  Was something supposed to happen?  I'm looking around my office and everything at least *seems* to be the same.  Looking out the window...hmm....no changes there that I can see.  I'm pretty sure I'm still just as much of a jerk as I was a few minutes ago.  Oh....I get it.......I *am* a little older now.  Oy vey!!  Just exactly *who* was it that wrote "...The family never existed..."?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Cantor Krishnich
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Pan-Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 545


Mar Ahmed the Daftadar


« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2013, 03:04:11 PM »

I can not believe what some of you are writing. Because I do not want to stir up anger during the Great Fast I will try not to argue with any one.

Many of you might not know what he means by feminism. In Russia, there is a growing femen movement ("P***y Riot" and others) who are labeled as feminists but are actually nuisances to society and should never be considered feminists. But since that's what the media continues to call them, this is what the Patriarch (Eis Polla Eti Dhespota) has to call them so that everyone knows who he's talking about. They have been attacking the Church and her influence in Holy Russia and commiting highly disgraceful acts. Traditional family, is one of the pillars of the Orthodox faith life. For society to function correctly, women and men both should know their places in society. Women can work, be educated, and still be good, religious, modest mothers and wives, you don't have to make a big fuss by becoming a "feminist".

May God preserve the Church of Russia and His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, may his enemies be crushed beneath his feet. Eis Polla Eti Dhespota!
Logged

Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2013, 06:49:37 PM »


What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  


 Given the cultural milieu in which HH Patriarch KIRILL made his comments, deciphering his intended meaning seemed rather elementary.  There is, however, one concrete way in which to settle the matter and afford all with an answer:  simply write or email his office and voila!, mystery solved.
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Патрик
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5



« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2013, 10:59:24 AM »

No, I hope and pray the Patriarch meant all feminism (I should agree with him in either case). Bluntly, I do not think women should work unless the children would otherwise starve – let us say a woman is abandoned by her husband. I would hope that a Christian family would support her, but if they do not, then she must work in order to eat, although this is a horrible situation and shame on her husband and family. It is never good for a woman to be working.

The proper, divinely ordained place of a woman is as a mother – look at the Theotokos – as the proper and divinely ordained place of a man is as protector and provider.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 11:11:56 AM by Патрик » Logged
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,318


Tending Brigid's flame


« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2013, 11:03:37 AM »

No, I hope and pray the Patriarch meant all feminism (I should agree with him in either case). Bluntly, I do not think women should work unless the children would otherwise starve – let us say a woman is abandoned by her husband. I would hope that a Christian family would support her, but if they do not, then she must work in order to eat, although this is a horrible situation and shame on her husband and family. It is never good for a woman to be working.

This whole post, especially the bolded part, shows a level of ignorance that I didn't think possible in the 21st century. Roll Eyes

Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2013, 11:11:29 AM »


What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  


 Given the cultural milieu in which HH Patriarch KIRILL made his comments, deciphering his intended meaning seemed rather elementary.  There is, however, one concrete way in which to settle the matter and afford all with an answer:  simply write or email his office and voila!, mystery solved.

My question was more general. Considering some of the responses here on the forum, what do people mean when they use the word and what are real definitions rather that mere labels?
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2013, 11:35:08 AM »

No, I hope and pray the Patriarch meant all feminism (I should agree with him in either case). Bluntly, I do not think women should work unless the children would otherwise starve – let us say a woman is abandoned by her husband. I would hope that a Christian family would support her, but if they do not, then she must work in order to eat, although this is a horrible situation and shame on her husband and family. It is never good for a woman to be working.



First, women (and men) have always had work.  It's not a picnic to care for children, cook food, make clothing or in some places farm, care for animals, weave, make pots or any number of other tasks that are necessary for simple survival.  In forager, horticultural and pastoral societies everyone has to work in some way for subsistence.  On a farm the adult women did planting and harvesting and worked with animals, too.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/medieval_women.htm


If you mean working in a job for pay that is also something that in larger settings (large scale agriculture/towns/cities etc) the poor and working class women have had to do that and children/teens as well.  Once a child was old enough to work in many places they did things like apprenticeships if they were lucky or they became labour for others such as farmhands or servants. That goes for girls, too; they couldn't just sit at home, they went out into service in many cultures.  Women sold things in markets that they made or bought from suppliers such as fish or fruit or other goods. They did sewing or knitting or took in laundry or any number of tasks for pay. 

With the Industrial revolution young women and children (boys and girls) worked in the cloth mills, in some cases to help bring in money to support their families.  Some worked in mines in terrible conditions because it was a case or that or starve.  Some worked with the ores that came up such as the "Bal Maidens" of Cornwall
http://www.balmaiden.co.uk/CornwallDevon.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowell_Mill_Girls

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1842womenminers.asp


The growth of a "middle class" is a relatively new development and the idea that for all of human history women could stay home and be supported is a fantasy that does not apply to real Human Beings.
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Патрик
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5



« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2013, 11:42:54 AM »

No, I hope and pray the Patriarch meant all feminism (I should agree with him in either case). Bluntly, I do not think women should work unless the children would otherwise starve – let us say a woman is abandoned by her husband. I would hope that a Christian family would support her, but if they do not, then she must work in order to eat, although this is a horrible situation and shame on her husband and family. It is never good for a woman to be working.

This whole post, especially the bolded part, shows a level of ignorance that I didn't think possible in the 21st century. Roll Eyes



Ignorance? Hardly.
Quote from: Patriarch Cyril
"The man should be focused on matters outside (of the house), he must work and earn money, but the woman is always directed to the inside, towards her children and her home."
Quote from: The Longer Catechism of the Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church
Matrimony is a Sacrament, in which, on the free promise of the man and woman before the priest and the Church to be true to each other, their conjugal union is blessed to be an image of Christ's union with the Church, and grace is asked for them to live together in godly love and honesty, to the procreation and Christian bringing up of children.

As I edited the post to add, there is a divine mandate for the proper role of men and women. The absolute rule of the Tsar in Russia was seen as that of a father. The rule of a father and husband should be absolute - certainly not drunken, bullying and brutal - as the mystery or sacrament of marriage is ''an image of Christ's union with the Church''.

Ebor: I don't mean to be rude, but you're taking a very broad view of 'a working woman'. I meant it in the common, modern sense of the phrase. I hardly think your Medieval woman with her distaff and spindle nor your woman taking in laundry to supplement her husband's income is anything like that blight of the twenty-first century, the 'professional woman' who no doubt aborts, contracepts and puts her 'career' above her duties as a wife and mother. The parallel, really, does not work. Sewing, embroidery, knitting and what have you are perfectly fit for a woman. I know that working class girls went out to be maids, but once they married, they settled down with, let us say, the gardener and, yes, perhaps, they took in laundry, or fed the chickens or whatever you like. That is not feminism. The wife who takes in laundry is still a wife and a mother.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 11:55:38 AM by Патрик » Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2013, 11:49:25 AM »

I think that we have to be careful here. It seems to me that this word "feminism" means different things to different folks.

If it means radical feminism, I would certainly agree with Patriarch Kirill.

If it means the right of women to work outside of home, I would not agree, unless a woman elevates her career over her other roles in a radical and self-conscious way. OTOH, that is a problem for men as well; one should not place a career over Church and family. Indeed, I submit that men are more guilty of this than women.

If it means the right of women to emulate the worst traits and practices of men in the name of equality, I would agree with HH Kirill.

If it means the right of women not to be raped, beaten, abused and otherwise maltreated by men, I would not agree.

Indeed, Carl, it does seem to have different meanings.  One question is do some of the meanings have real examples?  Or is the term meant to be some kind of insult directed at persons who the speaker/writer doesn't like?  And then there are the modifiers like "radical".  For some who wrote the impression is that any form is to be declared as terrible.  How do assertions like it is all about "me me me" have anything to do with real human beings?

So what is a "radical feminist" as opposed to one who is not?
How are people who try to stop rape, abuse and maltreatment of others doing things that are not "moral"?  Setting up a "straw woman" doesn't make a case nor address some of the very real problems and concerns such as those that you mentioned.

What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  

and in history there have been plenty of women who were quite moral who also expressed sentiments that "differentiated them from a doormat"


Sorry, I should have been clearer. By radical feminists I think of folks who hate men, and/or insist that there are no differences between men and women. This is opposed to radical men and women who espouse extreme political and ideological convictions and actions.

Here is a fairly decent wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism

Here is another article that lists 17 (!) different variants of feminism. (I suppose my very simplistic characterizations are woefully inadequate).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movements_and_ideologies

Thank you, Carl.  So there is not just one sort and the links you provide are of those that are acknowledged by persons who are part of them.   Yet, from some of the responses in this thread it might be thought that some people tar all persons who have some view of women's rights with one broad brush of "immoral" or "immodest" or self-centered ("Me Me Me").  

How does that sort of view actually apply to such things as the right to vote or to own property or to have a chance to go to school or even college as some examples? Have you ever read the Declaration of Sentiments from the Seneca Falls Conference of 1848?  This is a document that shows the roots of rights for women to be from a moral background.  
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/senecafalls.asp

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,318


Tending Brigid's flame


« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2013, 11:51:07 AM »

No, I hope and pray the Patriarch meant all feminism (I should agree with him in either case). Bluntly, I do not think women should work unless the children would otherwise starve – let us say a woman is abandoned by her husband. I would hope that a Christian family would support her, but if they do not, then she must work in order to eat, although this is a horrible situation and shame on her husband and family. It is never good for a woman to be working.

This whole post, especially the bolded part, shows a level of ignorance that I didn't think possible in the 21st century. Roll Eyes

Ignorance? Hardly.

I could have said 'deliberate blindness', but I decided to grant the benefit of the doubt.

As I edited the post to add, there is a divine mandate for the proper role of men and women. The absolute rule of the Tsar in Russia was seen as that of a father. The rule of a father and husband should be absolute - certainly not drunken, bullying and brutal - as the mystery or sacrament of marriage is ''an image of Christ's union with the Church''.

And we all know how that turned out. Not to mention that about 9/10s of the world were never under the Tsar's authority and have no reason to see him as a model of government, domestic or national.

Ebor: I don't mean to be rude, but good grief!  I did say that, although I think it is regrettable that women have to work and I certainly oppose entirely any backbreaking physical work for a woman,  I did add that I did not oppose women working in cases of grave necessity.

Then I certainly hope you're the one doing the vacuuming, floor scrubbing, window washing, garden weeding and such in your home.

Nor do I think a woman taking in laundry to supplement her husband's income or other ''women's work' can be taken on the same level as that blight of the twenty-first century, the 'professional woman' who no doubt aborts, contracepts and puts her 'career' above her duties as a wife and mother. The parallel, really, does not work. Sewing, embroidery, knitting and what have you are perfectly fit for a woman. I know that working class girls went out to be maids, but once they married, they settled down with, let us say, the gardener and, yes, perhaps, they took in laundry, or fed the chickens or whatever you like. That is not feminism.

No, it isn't. Feminism is about much more than work, and making it all about work is just a way to turn attention away from more important aspects.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 11:52:05 AM by Arachne » Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2013, 12:11:00 PM »


Ebor: I don't mean to be rude, but good grief!  I did say that, although I think it is regrettable that women have to work and I certainly oppose entirely any backbreaking physical work for a woman

That you oppose it is one thing.  That it has been part of human life, both male and female for most of human history is another.  It's what real people really have to do.

Quote
 I did add that I did not oppose women working in cases of grave necessity. Nor do I think a woman taking in laundry to supplement her husband's income or other ''women's work'

One may think then that having to make bricks or do construction (women in India) or plant/harvest crops (many parts of the world) in order to simply have a minimum of subsistence could be thought a "grave necessity".
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/11/14/by-the-numbers-where-indian-women-work/

May one ask what tasks you consider to be "women's work" please?  How would being male make it impossible for a person to do laundry for example?  In commercial laundries I've known of men to be doing that work.

Quote
...is anything like that blight of the twenty-first century, the 'professional woman' who no doubt aborts, contracepts and puts her 'career' above her duties as a wife and mother.

"no doubt"?  With a phrase like that do you know of real women who do this or are you just assuming?  

Quote
The parallel, really, does not work. Sewing, embroidery, knitting and what have you are perfectly fit for a woman. I know that working class girls went out to be maids, but once they married, they settled down with, let us say, the gardener and, yes, perhaps, they took in laundry, or fed the chickens or whatever you like. That is not feminism. The wife who takes in laundry is still a wife and a mother.

Men also wove and used the knitting frames in the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. So cloth making doesn't seem to be "women's work".   Many women did not marry because there weren't any men at various times due to things like plagues or wars (The situation in England after WWI for example).  Some men didn't want to marry either (though that didn't mean that they didn't want to have some fun without any ties.)

What of other work that women did to support their families?  They hired out to harvest crops and were often paid less than the men in England.  Is selling fish in the market or tending a greengrocer stand acceptable?


Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2013, 12:14:40 PM »

No, it isn't. Feminism is about much more than work, and making it all about work is just a way to turn attention away from more important aspects.

Indeed, that is so, Arachne.  Being able to control their own property or not be forced into a marriage or having a vote or even not to be treated as property or looked upon as such.  Those are some of the things that are what it is about.
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2013, 12:25:26 PM »



Ebor: I don't mean to be rude, but you're taking a very broad view of 'a working woman'. I meant it in the common, modern sense of the phrase.

Meaning no disrespect to you, but that may be your "common modern sense of the phrase" but that does not apply to much of the world right now in this century.  Why should your particular definition be applicable please?
"Working women" are cashiers in stores, janitors in office buildings, sellers in markets, factory workers making clothing or other goods, manual labourers in many parts of the world.  Humanity is a broad thing with billions of individuals and roughly half of them female.  So why should not a "broad view" apply rather than a narrow one?
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,318


Tending Brigid's flame


« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2013, 12:29:37 PM »

No, it isn't. Feminism is about much more than work, and making it all about work is just a way to turn attention away from more important aspects.

Indeed, that is so, Arachne.  Being able to control their own property or not be forced into a marriage or having a vote or even not to be treated as property or looked upon as such.  Those are some of the things that are what it is about.

I tend to focus mostly on education and healthcare, myself, but what you mention is certainly equally important. Smiley

Also, re: your earlier mention of weaving, I recently found out, prompted by a novel I was reading, that in the High Middle Ages, the heyday of tapestry weaving, only men were allowed to do it, because women were not allowed to be guild members. Same with lace-makers at least up to the 17th century. Gives a whole new perspective on men not being seen dead with a crochet hook, eh? Wink
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 12:30:36 PM by Arachne » Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,133


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2013, 12:36:23 PM »

No, it isn't. Feminism is about much more than work, and making it all about work is just a way to turn attention away from more important aspects.

Indeed, that is so, Arachne.  Being able to control their own property or not be forced into a marriage or having a vote or even not to be treated as property or looked upon as such.  Those are some of the things that are what it is about.

I tend to focus mostly on education and healthcare, myself, but what you mention is certainly equally important. Smiley

Also, re: your earlier mention of weaving, I recently found out, prompted by a novel I was reading, that in the High Middle Ages, the heyday of tapestry weaving, only men were allowed to do it, because women were not allowed to be guild members. Same with lace-makers at least up to the 17th century. Gives a whole new perspective on men not being seen dead with a crochet hook, eh? Wink





 Wink
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2013, 12:36:43 PM »

Yes, that was the case with the guild system. When a skill had some status attached to it such as the guild system, women were not allowed to do it.  Same with many professions including cooking with hired cooks and chefs.  It's interesting how some things are now relegated to "women's work"
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2013, 12:41:01 PM »

That's true, J Michael. I'm old enough to remember Roosevelt "Rosey" Grier and his doing fiber work as a hobby.  Smiley 

And I was once told by an older gentleman about the "Bachelor's club" in his high school in the 40s-50s in which he was taught how to do things like sew on a button and mend and cook some basic things as part of the necessary things that an adult male should be able to do. 
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Velsigne
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 448



« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2013, 04:16:50 PM »

Would be interesting to learn more about the role of women in Russian history. 

Russia differs from women in Europe and the Northern Americas, Australia, etc. in that they were handed 'equal rights' by the Soviet regime, which didn't necessarily give them access to the upper echelons of power, it just put them out doing hard labor.  They just had to go to work like men did, even fighting in wars as snipers and so forth.  They didn't have a long struggle for basic human rights, the right to vote, the right to equal pay for equal work, like women in the west.  By all accounts I've read though, Russian still lags far behind the west in fair compensation, women earning 60% to 40% of a man for the same work.

Women in Russia do get the longest paid maternity anywhere in the world though, but if the wage is not a living wage, it may not be that beneficial, and may cause employers to not want to hire young women who can leave for over a year on full pay.

Seems like there is a breakdown in general Russian society due to the many wars which killed off many men, leaving a surplus of women in some areas, and men who just didn't want to participate in family life, problems with alcoholism and so forth.  It's not clear to me what exactly is going on with Russian men, but it is clear that many Russian women look for men outside of Russia to find a suitable husband for raising a family to the point that it has become cliche.  A lot of women are also trafficked by the Russian mafia and other groups from that part of the world because women are looking to escape crushing poverty, and end up in slavery. 

Urban women, like elsewhere in developed or developing countries are probably similar in that they have figured out they don't need the hassle of an alcoholic abusive husband, and can be quite fulfilled by working and living how they choose.  They've figured out that they have to work, but then they have to go home and work again.  They carry a double burden.  Maybe a lot of women are deciding that don't want the double burden. 

Russia has a declining net population, so that may be part of what Patriarch Kiril is trying to address.  Also, abortion is widely and easily available in Russia, and is often used as a form of birth control rather than as a last resort since it is so cheap.  People who are already in poverty don't necessarily want to add children to the mix, or if they are moderately comfortable, they may not want many children.  Women can't be out being good little communist workers driving trucks and building railroads when they have a passle of kids to take care of as well.  And Soviet collective daycare didn't always work out so well. 

Other concerns the Patriarch Kiril could address are the high levels of alcoholism, and educating people about alcohol use during pregnancy.  From what I've heard, Russians don't even consider beer to be alcohol, but as a food.  I recently heard of someone drinking beer during the fast, and others were confused, thinking that abstention from alcohol is part of the fast.  Apparently not in the Russian tradition, which made sense to me if they really classify beer as food. 

So, it's not clear to me why Patriarch Kiril would just choose one aspect of modern Russian society on which to comment when there are obviously many other problems he could address as well, if that is indeed what happened. 

Could be the western press just picked up on the one part of what he said because it goes against sensibility. 

Logged
Velsigne
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 448



« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2013, 04:20:02 PM »


What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  


 Given the cultural milieu in which HH Patriarch KIRILL made his comments, deciphering his intended meaning seemed rather elementary.  There is, however, one concrete way in which to settle the matter and afford all with an answer:  simply write or email his office and voila!, mystery solved.

My question was more general. Considering some of the responses here on the forum, what do people mean when they use the word and what are real definitions rather that mere labels?

Yes, having a formal academic list of definitions doesn't really help one understand to what a person is referring.  Even saying "feminists are women who hate men" is wide open to interpretation.  One man may think any small criticism of men equals 'hatred', but it is really what you said earlier, just differentiating a person from a doormat. 

Interesting posts about history, btw.
Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,948



« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2013, 04:40:07 PM »

My opinion, also after having read the Russian text, is that Patriarch Kirill has made a statement that is too general and undifferenciated. Therefore I think Carl Kraeff's comment is extremely helpful.

Btw, there also is such as thing as Orthodox feminism. In fact, the first independent (ie not aligned to the Communist party) women's movement in the USSR in the late 1970s was explicitely Orthodox. Tatiana Goricheva is still alive, maybe the Patriarch could have a talk with her, before uttering such statements, which scare off many people from the Church...

Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2013, 05:35:18 PM »

Would be interesting to learn more about the role of women in Russian history.  

Russia differs from women in Europe and the Northern Americas, Australia, etc. in that they were handed 'equal rights' by the Soviet regime, which didn't necessarily give them access to the upper echelons of power, it just put them out doing hard labor.

I'm not so sure about them being out of "hard labor".  Women were working in factories and fields after the Soviet revolution.  I've seen posters and stamps for example that show women in these sorts of jobs.  Of course, some had the chance to be doctors and academics and other such occupations as well.  But I have read that forced marriages were banned in Russia in 1722 and a women's medical university was opened in the 1890s so here were some changes in tsarist Russia, too.

Quote
They just had to go to work like men did, even fighting in wars as snipers and so forth.  They didn't have a long struggle for basic human rights, the right to vote, the right to equal pay for equal work, like women in the west.  By all accounts I've read though, Russian still lags far behind the west in fair compensation, women earning 60% to 40% of a man for the same work.

I've seen a bit on that as well.  Here's an article with a bit on that:
http://www.waytorussia.net/WhatIsRussia/Women/Facts.html


Quote
Seems like there is a breakdown in general Russian society due to the many wars which killed off many men, leaving a surplus of women in some areas, and men who just didn't want to participate in family life, problems with alcoholism and so forth.  


Alcoholism is still a serious problem and from what I've read one of the leading causes of early death. Here are a couple of links:

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100114/157541676.html
http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/09-11-2006/85432-alcoholism-0/    

Quote
A lot of women are also trafficked by the Russian mafia and other groups from that part of the world because women are looking to escape crushing poverty, and end up in slavery.  

Trafficking is indeed a serious and evil problem and it fits in here as basically the women are being taken and used as property which is something that the Women's movement is against.  

Quote
They've figured out that they have to work, but then they have to go home and work again.  They carry a double burden.  Maybe a lot of women are deciding that don't want the double burden.

And if doing things at home is considered "women's work" by some men such that they do not engage in it themselves it is, as you wrote, double burden.

Quote
Russia has a declining net population, so that may be part of what Patriarch Kiril is trying to address.  Also, abortion is widely and easily available in Russia, and is often used as a form of birth control rather than as a last resort since it is so cheap.  People who are already in poverty don't necessarily want to add children to the mix, or if they are moderately comfortable, they may not want many children.  Women can't be out being good little communist workers driving trucks and building railroads when they have a passle of kids to take care of as well.  And Soviet collective daycare didn't always work out so well.  

Other concerns the Patriarch Kiril could address are the high levels of alcoholism, and educating people about alcohol use during pregnancy.  From what I've heard, Russians don't even consider beer to be alcohol, but as a food.  I recently heard of someone drinking beer during the fast, and others were confused, thinking that abstention from alcohol is part of the fast.  Apparently not in the Russian tradition, which made sense to me if they really classify beer as food.  

I have been told by a person who lived there for a while that fetal alcohol syndrome is having an affect on some parts of society.

Quote
So, it's not clear to me why Patriarch Kiril would just choose one aspect of modern Russian society on which to comment when there are obviously many other problems he could address as well, if that is indeed what happened.  

Patriarch Kiril has been viewed with some negativity by parts of Russian society for some dealings such as tobacco importation, a law suit about an apartment that he owns and his support of Vladimir Putin.  Earlier in this thread a poster mentioned a bit.  The lyrics of the female group mentioned above were against both the current President and some aspects of the Russian Church (I must state that I read them in translation just to be clear).  So perhaps that is one reason that the Patriarch spoke on this particular aspect.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 05:36:29 PM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2013, 05:48:08 PM »


What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  


 Given the cultural milieu in which HH Patriarch KIRILL made his comments, deciphering his intended meaning seemed rather elementary.  There is, however, one concrete way in which to settle the matter and afford all with an answer:  simply write or email his office and voila!, mystery solved.

My question was more general. Considering some of the responses here on the forum, what do people mean when they use the word and what are real definitions rather that mere labels?

Yes, having a formal academic list of definitions doesn't really help one understand to what a person is referring.  Even saying "feminists are women who hate men" is wide open to interpretation. 

As well as being a sweeping generalization and one that does not apply to real women for the most part.  A person's opinion may not really be the fact of a matter.  Undecided

Quote
One man may think any small criticism of men equals 'hatred', but it is really what you said earlier, just differentiating a person from a doormat. 

Interesting posts about history, btw.

Often people do not like to be disagreed with and they may consider someone doing so to them to be deep personal criticism or an "attack" or the like.  They don't like it, but that doesn't mean that the other person has any "hate".  Then again not being a doormat may offend some who prefer that others don't speak up.

I'm glad that you found them interesting. 
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,410



« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2013, 05:50:21 PM »

My opinion, also after having read the Russian text, is that Patriarch Kirill has made a statement that is too general and undifferenciated. Therefore I think Carl Kraeff's comment is extremely helpful.

Btw, there also is such as thing as Orthodox feminism. In fact, the first independent (ie not aligned to the Communist party) women's movement in the USSR in the late 1970s was explicitely Orthodox. Tatiana Goricheva is still alive, maybe the Patriarch could have a talk with her, before uttering such statements, which scare off many people from the Church...

I had not heard of this lady before. I must look her up.  Thank you for this.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 05:50:38 PM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Velsigne
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 448



« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2013, 10:58:18 PM »

Would be interesting to learn more about the role of women in Russian history.  

Russia differs from women in Europe and the Northern Americas, Australia, etc. in that they were handed 'equal rights' by the Soviet regime, which didn't necessarily give them access to the upper echelons of power, it just put them out doing hard labor.

I'm not so sure about them being out of "hard labor".  Women were working in factories and fields after the Soviet revolution.  I've seen posters and stamps for example that show women in these sorts of jobs.  Of course, some had the chance to be doctors and academics and other such occupations as well.  But I have read that forced marriages were banned in Russia in 1722 and a women's medical university was opened in the 1890s so here were some changes in tsarist Russia, too.

Quote
They just had to go to work like men did, even fighting in wars as snipers and so forth.  They didn't have a long struggle for basic human rights, the right to vote, the right to equal pay for equal work, like women in the west.  By all accounts I've read though, Russian still lags far behind the west in fair compensation, women earning 60% to 40% of a man for the same work.

I've seen a bit on that as well.  Here's an article with a bit on that:
http://www.waytorussia.net/WhatIsRussia/Women/Facts.html


Quote
Seems like there is a breakdown in general Russian society due to the many wars which killed off many men, leaving a surplus of women in some areas, and men who just didn't want to participate in family life, problems with alcoholism and so forth.  


Alcoholism is still a serious problem and from what I've read one of the leading causes of early death. Here are a couple of links:

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100114/157541676.html
http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/09-11-2006/85432-alcoholism-0/    

Quote
A lot of women are also trafficked by the Russian mafia and other groups from that part of the world because women are looking to escape crushing poverty, and end up in slavery.  

Trafficking is indeed a serious and evil problem and it fits in here as basically the women are being taken and used as property which is something that the Women's movement is against.  

Quote
They've figured out that they have to work, but then they have to go home and work again.  They carry a double burden.  Maybe a lot of women are deciding that don't want the double burden.

And if doing things at home is considered "women's work" by some men such that they do not engage in it themselves it is, as you wrote, double burden.

Quote
Russia has a declining net population, so that may be part of what Patriarch Kiril is trying to address.  Also, abortion is widely and easily available in Russia, and is often used as a form of birth control rather than as a last resort since it is so cheap.  People who are already in poverty don't necessarily want to add children to the mix, or if they are moderately comfortable, they may not want many children.  Women can't be out being good little communist workers driving trucks and building railroads when they have a passle of kids to take care of as well.  And Soviet collective daycare didn't always work out so well.  

Other concerns the Patriarch Kiril could address are the high levels of alcoholism, and educating people about alcohol use during pregnancy.  From what I've heard, Russians don't even consider beer to be alcohol, but as a food.  I recently heard of someone drinking beer during the fast, and others were confused, thinking that abstention from alcohol is part of the fast.  Apparently not in the Russian tradition, which made sense to me if they really classify beer as food.  

I have been told by a person who lived there for a while that fetal alcohol syndrome is having an affect on some parts of society.

Quote
So, it's not clear to me why Patriarch Kiril would just choose one aspect of modern Russian society on which to comment when there are obviously many other problems he could address as well, if that is indeed what happened.  

Patriarch Kiril has been viewed with some negativity by parts of Russian society for some dealings such as tobacco importation, a law suit about an apartment that he owns and his support of Vladimir Putin.  Earlier in this thread a poster mentioned a bit.  The lyrics of the female group mentioned above were against both the current President and some aspects of the Russian Church (I must state that I read them in translation just to be clear).  So perhaps that is one reason that the Patriarch spoke on this particular aspect.


Thank you for the links. 

Just a by the way, I had to find a doctor last week.  I searched the clinic for the specialist I want to see, and voila, there she is, a Russian woman, bilingual English / Russian with a distinctly British surname practicing at the top of her field at a very good hospital.  So I made an appointment with her Smiley  Perfect.  Hope she has good news for me.  Well, whatever it turns out, with God's help it will all be good in the end.
Logged
Velsigne
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 448



« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2013, 11:22:58 PM »

My opinion, also after having read the Russian text, is that Patriarch Kirill has made a statement that is too general and undifferenciated. Therefore I think Carl Kraeff's comment is extremely helpful.

Btw, there also is such as thing as Orthodox feminism. In fact, the first independent (ie not aligned to the Communist party) women's movement in the USSR in the late 1970s was explicitely Orthodox. Tatiana Goricheva is still alive, maybe the Patriarch could have a talk with her, before uttering such statements, which scare off many people from the Church...



I think Carl Kraeff makes very helpful comments on a regular basis, from what I have seen.  I believe that his statements are true for him, that he is reasonable, and that he intends them in the best way possible.    It is a very subjective topic when abstract terms are used with no common cultural basis and even with great variance within one culture, let alone across multiple cultures.   





Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.129 seconds with 53 queries.