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Author Topic: Feminism could destroy Russia, Patriarch Kirill claims. You're opinion?  (Read 1747 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 09, 2013, 04:26:27 PM »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/09/feminism-destroy-russia-patriarch-kirill

I decided to post it here instead of christian news Wink

but anyway, what is your opinion on feminism and orthodox view on it.

Have fun reading the comments on that article
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2013, 04:30:20 PM »

Yes, I am part of a secret plot to destroy Russia, because I went to school and got a job. How did he guess?
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2013, 04:30:48 PM »

What are my thoughts on it? Anyone who believes that joke-for-a-Patriarch's word is plain silly. This is the same guy who wears $10,000+ watches and tries to lie about it to the public through laughably bad photoshopping. In fact, due to the Russian Church's long history of being too involved with the state, I am very hesitant to take anything they say seriously unless another jurisdiction or Patriarch supports it.
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2013, 04:38:17 PM »

What are my thoughts on it? Anyone who believes that joke-for-a-Patriarch's word is plain silly.

Will JamesR's Patrisnark know no end?
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2013, 04:39:51 PM »

What are my thoughts on it? Anyone who believes that joke-for-a-Patriarch's word is plain silly. This is the same guy who wears $10,000+ watches and tries to lie about it to the public through laughably bad photoshopping. In fact, due to the Russian Church's long history of being too involved with the state, I am very hesitant to take anything they say seriously unless another jurisdiction or Patriarch supports it.

Again, you do not have to resort to name calling to make your point. We are not in kindergarden here, are we?
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2013, 04:44:15 PM »


Russian interests would better be served by lecturing the men, not just the women.

As I have heard, from people who live there....men drink too much, slap their women around, often abandon their families, etc.

The family "unit" consists of two responsible parents.  BOTH need to be educated, supported and loved.

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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2013, 05:41:20 PM »

I agree with the Patriarch.  Feminism has pretty much ruined this country.  However, I think that Feminism is one of the least problems that Russia needs to get its hands around, and I agree with Liza that the men probably need to be worked on first.  Feminism, or at least what is commonly known as such, is not necessary where men act like Christians and faithfully and honorably fulfill their role in society.  Attacking Feminism without cleaning up some of the other ills is putting the cart before the horse.
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2013, 08:48:21 PM »

I agree with the Patriarch.  Feminism has pretty much ruined this country.  However, I think that Feminism is one of the least problems that Russia needs to get its hands around, and I agree with Liza that the men probably need to be worked on first.  Feminism, or at least what is commonly known as such, is not necessary where men act like Christians and faithfully and honorably fulfill their role in society.  Attacking Feminism without cleaning up some of the other ills is putting the cart before the horse.

If we have anyone to reform in 50 years. Feminism didn't just make it 'ok' for women to get higher education and a job, it made it a requisite and the norm. This has equated to low birth rates all over the world the cultural trend has spread.

2 kids? better make it 1. I can't handle anymore and have my career...
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2013, 09:11:59 PM »

I agree with the Patriarch.  Feminism has pretty much ruined this country.  However, I think that Feminism is one of the least problems that Russia needs to get its hands around, and I agree with Liza that the men probably need to be worked on first.  Feminism, or at least what is commonly known as such, is not necessary where men act like Christians and faithfully and honorably fulfill their role in society.  Attacking Feminism without cleaning up some of the other ills is putting the cart before the horse.

If we have anyone to reform in 50 years. Feminism didn't just make it 'ok' for women to get higher education and a job, it made it a requisite and the norm. This has equated to low birth rates all over the world the cultural trend has spread.

2 kids? better make it 1. I can't handle anymore and have my career...
Agreed with both.

It's been the destruction of the family.

It is a shame we are in a two income sort of society now.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 09:15:21 PM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2013, 09:16:17 PM »

I agree with the Patriarch.  Feminism has pretty much ruined this country.  However, I think that Feminism is one of the least problems that Russia needs to get its hands around, and I agree with Liza that the men probably need to be worked on first.  Feminism, or at least what is commonly known as such, is not necessary where men act like Christians and faithfully and honorably fulfill their role in society.  Attacking Feminism without cleaning up some of the other ills is putting the cart before the horse.

If we have anyone to reform in 50 years. Feminism didn't just make it 'ok' for women to get higher education and a job, it made it a requisite and the norm. This has equated to low birth rates all over the world the cultural trend has spread.

2 kids? better make it 1. I can't handle anymore and have my career...
Agreed with both.

It's been the destruction of the family.

The family never existed. It's OK. Destroying non-existent idols should get some Christian reward of some sort.

With that I am out. Good night.
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2013, 09:21:11 PM »

...The family never existed....

*Hides in corner with popcorn*

You're really in for it now, just wait till J Michael and Charles Martel see this post...  Grin
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2013, 09:26:12 PM »

I agree with reply #5.
It takes family to make a unit work.

Let us pray for Russia and that God helps them restore the true familyvalues.
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2013, 12:24:16 AM »

I agree with the Patriarch.  Feminism has pretty much ruined this country.  However, I think that Feminism is one of the least problems that Russia needs to get its hands around, and I agree with Liza that the men probably need to be worked on first.  Feminism, or at least what is commonly known as such, is not necessary where men act like Christians and faithfully and honorably fulfill their role in society.  Attacking Feminism without cleaning up some of the other ills is putting the cart before the horse.

I agree a lot with Punch's statement here, and the Patriarch.   I do think that Feminism is a great downfall to our country, brought women out of the home (often to be raised by strangers), and we've seen a heavy moral decline in our country since its main "inception years".

For JamesR, I do agree with the frustration that you feel for him, however, its not always a good practice to denounce all of somebody's opinions based on some of their actions.  Many on this forum do not agree with me on several topics, but many would agree with other parts of my life as I would theirs.  Though I would disagree with him having costly array & covering it up, I would not consider him to be a joke of any sorts.  He's a fallible man and I as well.   I disagree with him being involved with ecumenism, but that doesn't mean he would be erroneous that - stealing is wrong, feminism is bad, and we should all have forgiveness. Just saying brother, it's important to try to read each thing at face value.  Though I detest ecumenism (as it personally harmed me), there are other qualities and wisdom that can be missed by ignoring all from him. 

I do find it an admirable quality that during the times where feminism is widely accepted, that he (in a powerful position) would speak out against it so strongly.
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2013, 01:33:01 AM »

I will give my opinion now.

I do not like feminism that goes so far to look down upon those who are mothers, making it seem better to be single and becoming powerful as an independent.

I disagree that "family" never existed. I do not see where that is coming from. Perhaps Orthonorm can explain more
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2013, 01:55:03 AM »

I agree with the Patriarch.  Feminism has pretty much ruined this country.  However, I think that Feminism is one of the least problems that Russia needs to get its hands around, and I agree with Liza that the men probably need to be worked on first.  Feminism, or at least what is commonly known as such, is not necessary where men act like Christians and faithfully and honorably fulfill their role in society.  Attacking Feminism without cleaning up some of the other ills is putting the cart before the horse.

If we have anyone to reform in 50 years. Feminism didn't just make it 'ok' for women to get higher education and a job, it made it a requisite and the norm. This has equated to low birth rates all over the world the cultural trend has spread.

2 kids? better make it 1. I can't handle anymore and have my career...
Agreed with both.

It's been the destruction of the family.

The family never existed. It's OK. Destroying non-existent idols should get some Christian reward of some sort.

With that I am out. Good night.
Families never existed? You gotta explain that one to me.
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2013, 02:34:19 AM »

I agree with the Patriarch.  Feminism has pretty much ruined this country.  However, I think that Feminism is one of the least problems that Russia needs to get its hands around, and I agree with Liza that the men probably need to be worked on first.  Feminism, or at least what is commonly known as such, is not necessary where men act like Christians and faithfully and honorably fulfill their role in society.  Attacking Feminism without cleaning up some of the other ills is putting the cart before the horse.

If we have anyone to reform in 50 years. Feminism didn't just make it 'ok' for women to get higher education and a job, it made it a requisite and the norm. This has equated to low birth rates all over the world the cultural trend has spread.

2 kids? better make it 1. I can't handle anymore and have my career...
Agreed with both.



I second both posts as well.


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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2013, 02:38:35 AM »

I agree with the Patriarch.  Feminism has pretty much ruined this country.  However, I think that Feminism is one of the least problems that Russia needs to get its hands around, and I agree with Liza that the men probably need to be worked on first.  Feminism, or at least what is commonly known as such, is not necessary where men act like Christians and faithfully and honorably fulfill their role in society.  Attacking Feminism without cleaning up some of the other ills is putting the cart before the horse.

If we have anyone to reform in 50 years. Feminism didn't just make it 'ok' for women to get higher education and a job, it made it a requisite and the norm. This has equated to low birth rates all over the world the cultural trend has spread.

2 kids? better make it 1. I can't handle anymore and have my career...
Agreed with both.

It's been the destruction of the family.

The family never existed. It's OK. Destroying non-existent idols should get some Christian reward of some sort.

With that I am out. Good night.
Families never existed? You gotta explain that one to me.


The whole "family" thing was a hoax cooked up by Dr. James Dobson and the evangelical fundies. The family is a bourgeois anachronism.

(Just anticipating Orthonorm's response here.)  Wink


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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2013, 03:39:04 AM »

Quote
brought women out of the home (often to be raised by strangers)

Actually, this is not something new. It happened a long time before feminism.
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2013, 08:15:49 AM »

I agree with the Patriarch.  Feminism has pretty much ruined this country.  However, I think that Feminism is one of the least problems that Russia needs to get its hands around, and I agree with Liza that the men probably need to be worked on first.  Feminism, or at least what is commonly known as such, is not necessary where men act like Christians and faithfully and honorably fulfill their role in society.  Attacking Feminism without cleaning up some of the other ills is putting the cart before the horse.

If we have anyone to reform in 50 years. Feminism didn't just make it 'ok' for women to get higher education and a job, it made it a requisite and the norm. This has equated to low birth rates all over the world the cultural trend has spread.

2 kids? better make it 1. I can't handle anymore and have my career...
Agreed with both.

It's been the destruction of the family.

The family never existed. It's OK. Destroying non-existent idols should get some Christian reward of some sort.

With that I am out. Good night.
Families never existed? You gotta explain that one to me.

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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2013, 03:35:52 AM »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/09/feminism-destroy-russia-patriarch-kirill

I decided to post it here instead of christian news Wink

but anyway, what is your opinion on feminism and orthodox view on it.

Have fun reading the comments on that article

What? 

I thought  Soviet Women Told Heavy Work to End back in '56!


But still in '67, no change as Russian Women Toil as Men Watch

So what is the difference now in Russia since the Patriarch Kiril noticed 'feminism' (whatever that is in Russia) back in the 70s?  Are the women finally demanding that the guys quit leaning on their shovels and get to work, no more komrade baloney? 

It's possible that article might be referring to some cultural going on, and not being well understood, it's not relayed too well.  Wonder what it really means, or if it is accurate.  He says the women should be focused on the home, but still have jobs outside the home, but have their priorities straight.  That doesn't seem really clear.  For a working woman with a family it is always work, then more work at home.  Same for many men who participate in home life. 
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2013, 04:04:40 AM »

Let's allow Ali G to weigh in on the subject: (Warning: slightly graphic material)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dyLSstqMvH8

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/52086/ali_g_feminism/



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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2013, 08:52:48 AM »

What definitions of "feminism" do people mean please, for an attempt at clarity?

Ansgar - Agreed. Real history of how people and cultures and different levels of society did things applies.
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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2013, 09:15:08 AM »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/09/feminism-destroy-russia-patriarch-kirill

I decided to post it here instead of christian news Wink

but anyway, what is your opinion on feminism and orthodox view on it.

Have fun reading the comments on that article

Gee, it hasn't affected us her in the USA......or has it? 
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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2013, 09:50:36 AM »

I agree with the Patriarch.  Feminism has pretty much ruined this country.  However, I think that Feminism is one of the least problems that Russia needs to get its hands around, and I agree with Liza that the men probably need to be worked on first.  Feminism, or at least what is commonly known as such, is not necessary where men act like Christians and faithfully and honorably fulfill their role in society.  Attacking Feminism without cleaning up some of the other ills is putting the cart before the horse.

If we have anyone to reform in 50 years. Feminism didn't just make it 'ok' for women to get higher education and a job, it made it a requisite and the norm. This has equated to low birth rates all over the world the cultural trend has spread.

2 kids? better make it 1. I can't handle anymore and have my career...

I frankly don't see how more women going to college could be anything but a positive development.
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2013, 09:58:51 AM »

Agreed, NightOwl.  How is getting some education a problem?  I think this goes along with what do various people actually *mean* when they use the word "feminism".
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2013, 10:01:24 AM »

What definitions of "feminism" do people mean please, for an attempt at clarity?

Ansgar - Agreed. Real history of how people and cultures and different levels of society did things applies.

That's a good question.  I've been wondering that since I started reading on this forum.  The word is frequently tossed around, but I don't know what they are talking about.

Maybe there should be a sticky with a dictionary that everyone can enter their own definition for reference.


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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2013, 10:16:35 AM »

What definitions of "feminism" do people mean please, for an attempt at clarity?

Ansgar - Agreed. Real history of how people and cultures and different levels of society did things applies.

That's a good question.  I've been wondering that since I started reading on this forum.  The word is frequently tossed around, but I don't know what they are talking about.

Maybe there should be a sticky with a dictionary that everyone can enter their own definition for reference.

Yes, the term is often just put out, and sometimes in variations that are intentionally insulting or disdainful. That can come across as slapping a label on something that the speaker/writer doesn't like, without any explanation of whats or whys.  So trying to find out just what some people mean could at least make some things more clear. 

This has been going on for a long time, btw.  The author Rebecca West wrote in 1913:

"I myself have never been able to find out what feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute."

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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2013, 10:40:11 AM »

Look at the United States

Feminism is someone who is all about ME ME ME -

Distorted Sexuality - just read 1 issue of Cosmopolitan

Tremendous upheaval in familial values

single parent households where MOST suffer economic hardships (we are not all as wealthy as Jody Foster or other starlets

B**tc*  HO and other derogatory terms very very common even amongst the women themselves

If you are a conservative republican woman = with high moral values you are looked down upon and attacked.

I say women should turn to the Lord Jesus Christ - cover up their bodies - quit trying to be "Model" perfect
Start trying to be pleasant to men and husbands and each other in HUMILITY  and wear veils in church and cover their shoulders in church
no cleavage in church  ETC.  quit trying to be sexy and cover up -  and don't "give it up so easy"

AS I SAID REAL FEMINISM would be a return to MORAL behavior and result in higher respect for women
but it won't happen - The lure of the passions outweighs prudence.

Patriarch Kirill is 100% accurate


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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2013, 11:31:55 AM »

I think that we have to be careful here. It seems to me that this word "feminism" means different things to different folks.

If it means radical feminism, I would certainly agree with Patriarch Kirill.

If it means the right of women to work outside of home, I would not agree, unless a woman elevates her career over her other roles in a radical and self-conscious way. OTOH, that is a problem for men as well; one should not place a career over Church and family. Indeed, I submit that men are more guilty of this than women.

If it means the right of women to emulate the worst traits and practices of men in the name of equality, I would agree with HH Kirill.

If it means the right of women not to be raped, beaten, abused and otherwise maltreated by men, I would not agree.
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« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2013, 11:52:15 AM »

I think that we have to be careful here. It seems to me that this word "feminism" means different things to different folks.

If it means radical feminism, I would certainly agree with Patriarch Kirill.

If it means the right of women to work outside of home, I would not agree, unless a woman elevates her career over her other roles in a radical and self-conscious way. OTOH, that is a problem for men as well; one should not place a career over Church and family. Indeed, I submit that men are more guilty of this than women.

How exactly are men more guilty than women?  I think that there is an expectation of a man to put a lot of effort into their career.  When we chose to listen to women over God and eat that tasty apple/pomegranate He cursed us to toil away our lives tilling the fields and selling pumps and boilers.  Heck, even last night when I was trying to put Church and God before work at the Pre-Sanctified liturgy pretending that I was a reader, I was reminded of work yet again:

Man shall go forth unto his work, to labour until the evening.

I guess it is a matter of enjoyment.  If you like Church more than work then putting work ahead of going to Church is just another part of the curse.

The problem with women working outside the home is that it doubled the work force, depressing wages, and now they HAVE to work outside the home.  If they really want to then cool.  Perhaps it's only fitting that they suffer at work since technology has made it so less die in childbirth, and men no longer rule over women as God punished them to.

Quote
If it means the right of women to emulate the worst traits and practices of men in the name of equality, I would agree with HH Kirill.

I'm with ya, and his Patriachness.  (Eminence?  Or is that just vanilla Bishops?)

Quote
If it means the right of women not to be raped, beaten, abused and otherwise maltreated by men, I would not agree.

That's not feminism.  That's called being a decent human being.
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« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2013, 12:48:07 PM »

That's not feminism.  That's called being a decent human being.

Unfortunately, in quite a few societies, it's mainly feminists who recognize this. It often takes a feminist, for instance, to point out that when a woman is raped, she is not the one to blame.
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« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2013, 03:20:16 PM »

Can't say I'm against women getting a job, I understand this viewpoint, but I think there are much more dangerous forms of fenimism to speak against.
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2013, 03:30:06 PM »

I'm going to be honest here, most men--especially in Mexican communities--are abusive, alcoholic and neglecting. I support feminism at least to the degree of promoting women to develop job skills and learning how to be self-sufficient. That way, she won't be tied down to an abusive husband if she ever finds herself in this situation. I don't want my sister being totally dependent on a man (yet I wouldn't mind a woman being totally dependent on me, funny how double standards work).
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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2013, 04:02:47 PM »

I'm going to be honest here, most men--especially in Mexican communities--are abusive, alcoholic and neglecting. I support feminism at least to the degree of promoting women to develop job skills and learning how to be self-sufficient. That way, she won't be tied down to an abusive husband if she ever finds herself in this situation. I don't want my sister being totally dependent on a man (yet I wouldn't mind a woman being totally dependent on me, funny how double standards work).

Advise your sister not to marry an abusive turd.  That's one of the problems with the "bad boy" phenomenon.  When a girl goes with a trashy guy, it's not really all that surprising when he's, well, a piece of trash.  If women only dated decent men then 1.) men in general would have to change their behaviours or be alone, and 2.) eventually they would die out.

Evolution, yo!
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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2013, 05:22:52 PM »

I agree 100% with HH Patriarch KIRILL because I understand him to be speaking of 'radical' feminism.  I base this on the fact that he stated he believes women have the right to work and own businesses as well as run for public office.  It's a shame that some of you missed that.  Radical feminism views motherhood as servitude and that children are a burden.  It also teaches that women do not need men; a viewpoint that runs contrary to Christianity as taught in Genesis.  Radical feminism runs completely contrary to Orthodox Christianity. 

Here's an article I ran across written by the daughter of a famous Radical feminist.  It was eye opening and, I believe, underscore's HH's words. 


 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1021293/How-mothers-fanatical-feminist-views-tore-apart-daughter-The-Color-Purple-author.html

How My Mother's Fanatical Views Tore Us Apart

She's revered as a trail-blazing feminist and author Alice Walker touched the lives of a generation of women. A champion of women's rights, she has always argued that motherhood is a form of servitude. But one woman didn't buy in to Alice's beliefs  -  her daughter, Rebecca, 38.
Here the writer describes what it was like to grow up as the daughter of a cultural icon, and why she feels so blessed to be the sort of woman 64-year-old Alice despises  -  a mother.


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« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2013, 05:35:29 PM »

I'm going to be honest here, most men--especially in Mexican communities--are abusive, alcoholic and neglecting. I support feminism at least to the degree of promoting women to develop job skills and learning how to be self-sufficient. That way, she won't be tied down to an abusive husband if she ever finds herself in this situation. I don't want my sister being totally dependent on a man (yet I wouldn't mind a woman being totally dependent on me, funny how double standards work).

Well, what do you expect?  There are some who believe that the only purpose for a Mexican man is to help produce those beautiful Mexican woman for white guys that treat them right.

Did I just write that?  Man, I must be reading too many of your posts . . . Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2013, 05:46:43 PM »

I'm going to be honest here, most men--especially in Mexican communities--are abusive, alcoholic and neglecting. I support feminism at least to the degree of promoting women to develop job skills and learning how to be self-sufficient. That way, she won't be tied down to an abusive husband if she ever finds herself in this situation. I don't want my sister being totally dependent on a man (yet I wouldn't mind a woman being totally dependent on me, funny how double standards work).

Well, what do you expect?  There are some who believe that the only purpose for a Mexican man is to help produce those beautiful Mexican woman for white guys that treat them right.

Did I just write that?  Man, I must be reading too many of your posts . . . Smiley

Board toast to Salma Hayek's padre? Wink
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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2013, 05:50:52 PM »

I'm going to be honest here, most men--especially in Mexican communities--are abusive, alcoholic and neglecting. I support feminism at least to the degree of promoting women to develop job skills and learning how to be self-sufficient. That way, she won't be tied down to an abusive husband if she ever finds herself in this situation. I don't want my sister being totally dependent on a man (yet I wouldn't mind a woman being totally dependent on me, funny how double standards work).

Well, what do you expect?  There are some who believe that the only purpose for a Mexican man is to help produce those beautiful Mexican woman for white guys that treat them right.

Did I just write that?  Man, I must be reading too many of your posts . . . Smiley

Board toast to Salma Hayek's padre? Wink

Yes.  A great economist he was!
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« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2013, 05:52:27 PM »

Yes, I am part of a secret plot to destroy Russia, because I went to school and got a job. How did he guess?
Why don't you try reading an article before commenting.

"He said he was not opposed to women pursuing careers in politics or business or other professions "that today are mainly done by men", but said they should get their priorities straight."
 

This is always the reactionary response on the Left about anything that makes them feel the least bit threatened.

Anyway, I totally agree with the Patriarch.

I think Russia is just about the last place on Earth that white men can speak frankly.
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« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2013, 05:58:37 PM »

I agree with the Patriarch.  Feminism has pretty much ruined this country.  However, I think that Feminism is one of the least problems that Russia needs to get its hands around, and I agree with Liza that the men probably need to be worked on first.  Feminism, or at least what is commonly known as such, is not necessary where men act like Christians and faithfully and honorably fulfill their role in society.  Attacking Feminism without cleaning up some of the other ills is putting the cart before the horse.

If we have anyone to reform in 50 years. Feminism didn't just make it 'ok' for women to get higher education and a job, it made it a requisite and the norm. This has equated to low birth rates all over the world the cultural trend has spread.

2 kids? better make it 1. I can't handle anymore and have my career...
Agreed with both.

It's been the destruction of the family.

The family never existed. It's OK. Destroying non-existent idols should get some Christian reward of some sort.

With that I am out. Good night.
Ae you sure you're a Christian?



Wait a minute, even pagans and infidels have always valued the family.

Only Satan despises it.

Hmmm.
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« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2013, 06:18:01 PM »

I'm going to be honest here, most men--especially in Mexican communities--are abusive, alcoholic and neglecting. I support feminism at least to the degree of promoting women to develop job skills and learning how to be self-sufficient. That way, she won't be tied down to an abusive husband if she ever finds herself in this situation. I don't want my sister being totally dependent on a man (yet I wouldn't mind a woman being totally dependent on me, funny how double standards work).

Well, what do you expect?  There are some who believe that the only purpose for a Mexican man is to help produce those beautiful Mexican woman for white guys that treat them right.

Did I just write that?  Man, I must be reading too many of your posts . . . Smiley

Board toast to Salma Hayek's padre? Wink







Yes - Salma that is . . . and I don't mean "hit" in the way that Marc would take it.
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« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2013, 07:20:52 PM »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/09/feminism-destroy-russia-patriarch-kirill

I decided to post it here instead of christian news Wink

but anyway, what is your opinion on feminism and orthodox view on it.

Have fun reading the comments on that article
As it has in the West, feminism might affect the attitudes of some people in Russia toward the traditional family and  traditional family values. However, I don't think that it would destroy Russia. 
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« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2013, 07:22:18 PM »

I think that we have to be careful here. It seems to me that this word "feminism" means different things to different folks.

If it means radical feminism, I would certainly agree with Patriarch Kirill.

If it means the right of women to work outside of home, I would not agree, unless a woman elevates her career over her other roles in a radical and self-conscious way. OTOH, that is a problem for men as well; one should not place a career over Church and family. Indeed, I submit that men are more guilty of this than women.

If it means the right of women to emulate the worst traits and practices of men in the name of equality, I would agree with HH Kirill.

If it means the right of women not to be raped, beaten, abused and otherwise maltreated by men, I would not agree.

Indeed, Carl, it does seem to have different meanings.  One question is do some of the meanings have real examples?  Or is the term meant to be some kind of insult directed at persons who the speaker/writer doesn't like?  And then there are the modifiers like "radical".  For some who wrote the impression is that any form is to be declared as terrible.  How do assertions like it is all about "me me me" have anything to do with real human beings?

So what is a "radical feminist" as opposed to one who is not?
How are people who try to stop rape, abuse and maltreatment of others doing things that are not "moral"?  Setting up a "straw woman" doesn't make a case nor address some of the very real problems and concerns such as those that you mentioned.

What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  

and in history there have been plenty of women who were quite moral who also expressed sentiments that "differentiated them from a doormat"
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« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2013, 08:22:47 PM »


I think Russia is just about the last place on Earth that white men can speak frankly.

 laugh laugh laugh

And I think I'm pretty glad that I don't know any more about you than I do on this board.
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« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2013, 09:39:23 PM »

I think that we have to be careful here. It seems to me that this word "feminism" means different things to different folks.

If it means radical feminism, I would certainly agree with Patriarch Kirill.

If it means the right of women to work outside of home, I would not agree, unless a woman elevates her career over her other roles in a radical and self-conscious way. OTOH, that is a problem for men as well; one should not place a career over Church and family. Indeed, I submit that men are more guilty of this than women.

If it means the right of women to emulate the worst traits and practices of men in the name of equality, I would agree with HH Kirill.

If it means the right of women not to be raped, beaten, abused and otherwise maltreated by men, I would not agree.

I agree with you, and disagree too.

I do not believe that women should work outside of the home (IF POSSIBLE)

Titus 2:3-4
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Women who are submissive of course, does not mean a man should beat them.  The scriptures tell us to "love our wives as ourselves".

Feminism often brings a woman out of a home, away from her children.  It subjects her to the toils of the world, thus making her not a "keeper at home".

Unmarried women in tradition, would remain at her father's home, until wed.

Today in our complex world things should not entirely be different.  IF it is possible for a woman to be at home with her parents until marriage, I would believe that is a good way.  IF it is not possible, I believe she should have every opportunity in the workplace as anybody else.   IF she is married, I believe she absolutely should be at home if at all possible (either keeping home, raising children, or both).    IF a woman has a career, and marries, then I believe she should then terminate her career, to be a keeper at home and/or mother.   (Yes even if she is a doctor) I KNOW this is NOT always possible, but in general, I think this is a great way to go.

As posted above, the scriptures speak of the lessons the older women leave to younger women.  It's a beautiful plan which God has made for us.

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« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2013, 12:02:06 PM »

I think that we have to be careful here. It seems to me that this word "feminism" means different things to different folks.

If it means radical feminism, I would certainly agree with Patriarch Kirill.

If it means the right of women to work outside of home, I would not agree, unless a woman elevates her career over her other roles in a radical and self-conscious way. OTOH, that is a problem for men as well; one should not place a career over Church and family. Indeed, I submit that men are more guilty of this than women.

If it means the right of women to emulate the worst traits and practices of men in the name of equality, I would agree with HH Kirill.

If it means the right of women not to be raped, beaten, abused and otherwise maltreated by men, I would not agree.

Indeed, Carl, it does seem to have different meanings.  One question is do some of the meanings have real examples?  Or is the term meant to be some kind of insult directed at persons who the speaker/writer doesn't like?  And then there are the modifiers like "radical".  For some who wrote the impression is that any form is to be declared as terrible.  How do assertions like it is all about "me me me" have anything to do with real human beings?

So what is a "radical feminist" as opposed to one who is not?
How are people who try to stop rape, abuse and maltreatment of others doing things that are not "moral"?  Setting up a "straw woman" doesn't make a case nor address some of the very real problems and concerns such as those that you mentioned.

What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  

and in history there have been plenty of women who were quite moral who also expressed sentiments that "differentiated them from a doormat"


Sorry, I should have been clearer. By radical feminists I think of folks who hate men, and/or insist that there are no differences between men and women. This is opposed to radical men and women who espouse extreme political and ideological convictions and actions.

Here is a fairly decent wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism

Here is another article that lists 17 (!) different variants of feminism. (I suppose my very simplistic characterizations are woefully inadequate).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movements_and_ideologies
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« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2013, 02:44:06 PM »

...The family never existed....

*Hides in corner with popcorn*

You're really in for it now, just wait till J Michael and Charles Martel see this post...  Grin

Okay...I just saw it (takes me a while sometimes  Wink).  Was something supposed to happen?  I'm looking around my office and everything at least *seems* to be the same.  Looking out the window...hmm....no changes there that I can see.  I'm pretty sure I'm still just as much of a jerk as I was a few minutes ago.  Oh....I get it.......I *am* a little older now.  Oy vey!!  Just exactly *who* was it that wrote "...The family never existed..."?
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« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2013, 03:04:11 PM »

I can not believe what some of you are writing. Because I do not want to stir up anger during the Great Fast I will try not to argue with any one.

Many of you might not know what he means by feminism. In Russia, there is a growing femen movement ("P***y Riot" and others) who are labeled as feminists but are actually nuisances to society and should never be considered feminists. But since that's what the media continues to call them, this is what the Patriarch (Eis Polla Eti Dhespota) has to call them so that everyone knows who he's talking about. They have been attacking the Church and her influence in Holy Russia and commiting highly disgraceful acts. Traditional family, is one of the pillars of the Orthodox faith life. For society to function correctly, women and men both should know their places in society. Women can work, be educated, and still be good, religious, modest mothers and wives, you don't have to make a big fuss by becoming a "feminist".

May God preserve the Church of Russia and His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, may his enemies be crushed beneath his feet. Eis Polla Eti Dhespota!
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« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2013, 06:49:37 PM »


What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  


 Given the cultural milieu in which HH Patriarch KIRILL made his comments, deciphering his intended meaning seemed rather elementary.  There is, however, one concrete way in which to settle the matter and afford all with an answer:  simply write or email his office and voila!, mystery solved.
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« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2013, 10:59:24 AM »

No, I hope and pray the Patriarch meant all feminism (I should agree with him in either case). Bluntly, I do not think women should work unless the children would otherwise starve – let us say a woman is abandoned by her husband. I would hope that a Christian family would support her, but if they do not, then she must work in order to eat, although this is a horrible situation and shame on her husband and family. It is never good for a woman to be working.

The proper, divinely ordained place of a woman is as a mother – look at the Theotokos – as the proper and divinely ordained place of a man is as protector and provider.

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« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2013, 11:03:37 AM »

No, I hope and pray the Patriarch meant all feminism (I should agree with him in either case). Bluntly, I do not think women should work unless the children would otherwise starve – let us say a woman is abandoned by her husband. I would hope that a Christian family would support her, but if they do not, then she must work in order to eat, although this is a horrible situation and shame on her husband and family. It is never good for a woman to be working.

This whole post, especially the bolded part, shows a level of ignorance that I didn't think possible in the 21st century. Roll Eyes

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« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2013, 11:11:29 AM »


What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  


 Given the cultural milieu in which HH Patriarch KIRILL made his comments, deciphering his intended meaning seemed rather elementary.  There is, however, one concrete way in which to settle the matter and afford all with an answer:  simply write or email his office and voila!, mystery solved.

My question was more general. Considering some of the responses here on the forum, what do people mean when they use the word and what are real definitions rather that mere labels?
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« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2013, 11:35:08 AM »

No, I hope and pray the Patriarch meant all feminism (I should agree with him in either case). Bluntly, I do not think women should work unless the children would otherwise starve – let us say a woman is abandoned by her husband. I would hope that a Christian family would support her, but if they do not, then she must work in order to eat, although this is a horrible situation and shame on her husband and family. It is never good for a woman to be working.



First, women (and men) have always had work.  It's not a picnic to care for children, cook food, make clothing or in some places farm, care for animals, weave, make pots or any number of other tasks that are necessary for simple survival.  In forager, horticultural and pastoral societies everyone has to work in some way for subsistence.  On a farm the adult women did planting and harvesting and worked with animals, too.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/medieval_women.htm


If you mean working in a job for pay that is also something that in larger settings (large scale agriculture/towns/cities etc) the poor and working class women have had to do that and children/teens as well.  Once a child was old enough to work in many places they did things like apprenticeships if they were lucky or they became labour for others such as farmhands or servants. That goes for girls, too; they couldn't just sit at home, they went out into service in many cultures.  Women sold things in markets that they made or bought from suppliers such as fish or fruit or other goods. They did sewing or knitting or took in laundry or any number of tasks for pay. 

With the Industrial revolution young women and children (boys and girls) worked in the cloth mills, in some cases to help bring in money to support their families.  Some worked in mines in terrible conditions because it was a case or that or starve.  Some worked with the ores that came up such as the "Bal Maidens" of Cornwall
http://www.balmaiden.co.uk/CornwallDevon.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowell_Mill_Girls

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1842womenminers.asp


The growth of a "middle class" is a relatively new development and the idea that for all of human history women could stay home and be supported is a fantasy that does not apply to real Human Beings.
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« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2013, 11:42:54 AM »

No, I hope and pray the Patriarch meant all feminism (I should agree with him in either case). Bluntly, I do not think women should work unless the children would otherwise starve – let us say a woman is abandoned by her husband. I would hope that a Christian family would support her, but if they do not, then she must work in order to eat, although this is a horrible situation and shame on her husband and family. It is never good for a woman to be working.

This whole post, especially the bolded part, shows a level of ignorance that I didn't think possible in the 21st century. Roll Eyes



Ignorance? Hardly.
Quote from: Patriarch Cyril
"The man should be focused on matters outside (of the house), he must work and earn money, but the woman is always directed to the inside, towards her children and her home."
Quote from: The Longer Catechism of the Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church
Matrimony is a Sacrament, in which, on the free promise of the man and woman before the priest and the Church to be true to each other, their conjugal union is blessed to be an image of Christ's union with the Church, and grace is asked for them to live together in godly love and honesty, to the procreation and Christian bringing up of children.

As I edited the post to add, there is a divine mandate for the proper role of men and women. The absolute rule of the Tsar in Russia was seen as that of a father. The rule of a father and husband should be absolute - certainly not drunken, bullying and brutal - as the mystery or sacrament of marriage is ''an image of Christ's union with the Church''.

Ebor: I don't mean to be rude, but you're taking a very broad view of 'a working woman'. I meant it in the common, modern sense of the phrase. I hardly think your Medieval woman with her distaff and spindle nor your woman taking in laundry to supplement her husband's income is anything like that blight of the twenty-first century, the 'professional woman' who no doubt aborts, contracepts and puts her 'career' above her duties as a wife and mother. The parallel, really, does not work. Sewing, embroidery, knitting and what have you are perfectly fit for a woman. I know that working class girls went out to be maids, but once they married, they settled down with, let us say, the gardener and, yes, perhaps, they took in laundry, or fed the chickens or whatever you like. That is not feminism. The wife who takes in laundry is still a wife and a mother.
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« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2013, 11:49:25 AM »

I think that we have to be careful here. It seems to me that this word "feminism" means different things to different folks.

If it means radical feminism, I would certainly agree with Patriarch Kirill.

If it means the right of women to work outside of home, I would not agree, unless a woman elevates her career over her other roles in a radical and self-conscious way. OTOH, that is a problem for men as well; one should not place a career over Church and family. Indeed, I submit that men are more guilty of this than women.

If it means the right of women to emulate the worst traits and practices of men in the name of equality, I would agree with HH Kirill.

If it means the right of women not to be raped, beaten, abused and otherwise maltreated by men, I would not agree.

Indeed, Carl, it does seem to have different meanings.  One question is do some of the meanings have real examples?  Or is the term meant to be some kind of insult directed at persons who the speaker/writer doesn't like?  And then there are the modifiers like "radical".  For some who wrote the impression is that any form is to be declared as terrible.  How do assertions like it is all about "me me me" have anything to do with real human beings?

So what is a "radical feminist" as opposed to one who is not?
How are people who try to stop rape, abuse and maltreatment of others doing things that are not "moral"?  Setting up a "straw woman" doesn't make a case nor address some of the very real problems and concerns such as those that you mentioned.

What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  

and in history there have been plenty of women who were quite moral who also expressed sentiments that "differentiated them from a doormat"


Sorry, I should have been clearer. By radical feminists I think of folks who hate men, and/or insist that there are no differences between men and women. This is opposed to radical men and women who espouse extreme political and ideological convictions and actions.

Here is a fairly decent wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism

Here is another article that lists 17 (!) different variants of feminism. (I suppose my very simplistic characterizations are woefully inadequate).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movements_and_ideologies

Thank you, Carl.  So there is not just one sort and the links you provide are of those that are acknowledged by persons who are part of them.   Yet, from some of the responses in this thread it might be thought that some people tar all persons who have some view of women's rights with one broad brush of "immoral" or "immodest" or self-centered ("Me Me Me").  

How does that sort of view actually apply to such things as the right to vote or to own property or to have a chance to go to school or even college as some examples? Have you ever read the Declaration of Sentiments from the Seneca Falls Conference of 1848?  This is a document that shows the roots of rights for women to be from a moral background.  
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/senecafalls.asp

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« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2013, 11:51:07 AM »

No, I hope and pray the Patriarch meant all feminism (I should agree with him in either case). Bluntly, I do not think women should work unless the children would otherwise starve – let us say a woman is abandoned by her husband. I would hope that a Christian family would support her, but if they do not, then she must work in order to eat, although this is a horrible situation and shame on her husband and family. It is never good for a woman to be working.

This whole post, especially the bolded part, shows a level of ignorance that I didn't think possible in the 21st century. Roll Eyes

Ignorance? Hardly.

I could have said 'deliberate blindness', but I decided to grant the benefit of the doubt.

As I edited the post to add, there is a divine mandate for the proper role of men and women. The absolute rule of the Tsar in Russia was seen as that of a father. The rule of a father and husband should be absolute - certainly not drunken, bullying and brutal - as the mystery or sacrament of marriage is ''an image of Christ's union with the Church''.

And we all know how that turned out. Not to mention that about 9/10s of the world were never under the Tsar's authority and have no reason to see him as a model of government, domestic or national.

Ebor: I don't mean to be rude, but good grief!  I did say that, although I think it is regrettable that women have to work and I certainly oppose entirely any backbreaking physical work for a woman,  I did add that I did not oppose women working in cases of grave necessity.

Then I certainly hope you're the one doing the vacuuming, floor scrubbing, window washing, garden weeding and such in your home.

Nor do I think a woman taking in laundry to supplement her husband's income or other ''women's work' can be taken on the same level as that blight of the twenty-first century, the 'professional woman' who no doubt aborts, contracepts and puts her 'career' above her duties as a wife and mother. The parallel, really, does not work. Sewing, embroidery, knitting and what have you are perfectly fit for a woman. I know that working class girls went out to be maids, but once they married, they settled down with, let us say, the gardener and, yes, perhaps, they took in laundry, or fed the chickens or whatever you like. That is not feminism.

No, it isn't. Feminism is about much more than work, and making it all about work is just a way to turn attention away from more important aspects.
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« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2013, 12:11:00 PM »


Ebor: I don't mean to be rude, but good grief!  I did say that, although I think it is regrettable that women have to work and I certainly oppose entirely any backbreaking physical work for a woman

That you oppose it is one thing.  That it has been part of human life, both male and female for most of human history is another.  It's what real people really have to do.

Quote
 I did add that I did not oppose women working in cases of grave necessity. Nor do I think a woman taking in laundry to supplement her husband's income or other ''women's work'

One may think then that having to make bricks or do construction (women in India) or plant/harvest crops (many parts of the world) in order to simply have a minimum of subsistence could be thought a "grave necessity".
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/11/14/by-the-numbers-where-indian-women-work/

May one ask what tasks you consider to be "women's work" please?  How would being male make it impossible for a person to do laundry for example?  In commercial laundries I've known of men to be doing that work.

Quote
...is anything like that blight of the twenty-first century, the 'professional woman' who no doubt aborts, contracepts and puts her 'career' above her duties as a wife and mother.

"no doubt"?  With a phrase like that do you know of real women who do this or are you just assuming?  

Quote
The parallel, really, does not work. Sewing, embroidery, knitting and what have you are perfectly fit for a woman. I know that working class girls went out to be maids, but once they married, they settled down with, let us say, the gardener and, yes, perhaps, they took in laundry, or fed the chickens or whatever you like. That is not feminism. The wife who takes in laundry is still a wife and a mother.

Men also wove and used the knitting frames in the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. So cloth making doesn't seem to be "women's work".   Many women did not marry because there weren't any men at various times due to things like plagues or wars (The situation in England after WWI for example).  Some men didn't want to marry either (though that didn't mean that they didn't want to have some fun without any ties.)

What of other work that women did to support their families?  They hired out to harvest crops and were often paid less than the men in England.  Is selling fish in the market or tending a greengrocer stand acceptable?


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« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2013, 12:14:40 PM »

No, it isn't. Feminism is about much more than work, and making it all about work is just a way to turn attention away from more important aspects.

Indeed, that is so, Arachne.  Being able to control their own property or not be forced into a marriage or having a vote or even not to be treated as property or looked upon as such.  Those are some of the things that are what it is about.
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« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2013, 12:25:26 PM »



Ebor: I don't mean to be rude, but you're taking a very broad view of 'a working woman'. I meant it in the common, modern sense of the phrase.

Meaning no disrespect to you, but that may be your "common modern sense of the phrase" but that does not apply to much of the world right now in this century.  Why should your particular definition be applicable please?
"Working women" are cashiers in stores, janitors in office buildings, sellers in markets, factory workers making clothing or other goods, manual labourers in many parts of the world.  Humanity is a broad thing with billions of individuals and roughly half of them female.  So why should not a "broad view" apply rather than a narrow one?
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« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2013, 12:29:37 PM »

No, it isn't. Feminism is about much more than work, and making it all about work is just a way to turn attention away from more important aspects.

Indeed, that is so, Arachne.  Being able to control their own property or not be forced into a marriage or having a vote or even not to be treated as property or looked upon as such.  Those are some of the things that are what it is about.

I tend to focus mostly on education and healthcare, myself, but what you mention is certainly equally important. Smiley

Also, re: your earlier mention of weaving, I recently found out, prompted by a novel I was reading, that in the High Middle Ages, the heyday of tapestry weaving, only men were allowed to do it, because women were not allowed to be guild members. Same with lace-makers at least up to the 17th century. Gives a whole new perspective on men not being seen dead with a crochet hook, eh? Wink
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« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2013, 12:36:23 PM »

No, it isn't. Feminism is about much more than work, and making it all about work is just a way to turn attention away from more important aspects.

Indeed, that is so, Arachne.  Being able to control their own property or not be forced into a marriage or having a vote or even not to be treated as property or looked upon as such.  Those are some of the things that are what it is about.

I tend to focus mostly on education and healthcare, myself, but what you mention is certainly equally important. Smiley

Also, re: your earlier mention of weaving, I recently found out, prompted by a novel I was reading, that in the High Middle Ages, the heyday of tapestry weaving, only men were allowed to do it, because women were not allowed to be guild members. Same with lace-makers at least up to the 17th century. Gives a whole new perspective on men not being seen dead with a crochet hook, eh? Wink





 Wink
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« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2013, 12:36:43 PM »

Yes, that was the case with the guild system. When a skill had some status attached to it such as the guild system, women were not allowed to do it.  Same with many professions including cooking with hired cooks and chefs.  It's interesting how some things are now relegated to "women's work"
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« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2013, 12:41:01 PM »

That's true, J Michael. I'm old enough to remember Roosevelt "Rosey" Grier and his doing fiber work as a hobby.  Smiley 

And I was once told by an older gentleman about the "Bachelor's club" in his high school in the 40s-50s in which he was taught how to do things like sew on a button and mend and cook some basic things as part of the necessary things that an adult male should be able to do. 
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« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2013, 04:16:50 PM »

Would be interesting to learn more about the role of women in Russian history. 

Russia differs from women in Europe and the Northern Americas, Australia, etc. in that they were handed 'equal rights' by the Soviet regime, which didn't necessarily give them access to the upper echelons of power, it just put them out doing hard labor.  They just had to go to work like men did, even fighting in wars as snipers and so forth.  They didn't have a long struggle for basic human rights, the right to vote, the right to equal pay for equal work, like women in the west.  By all accounts I've read though, Russian still lags far behind the west in fair compensation, women earning 60% to 40% of a man for the same work.

Women in Russia do get the longest paid maternity anywhere in the world though, but if the wage is not a living wage, it may not be that beneficial, and may cause employers to not want to hire young women who can leave for over a year on full pay.

Seems like there is a breakdown in general Russian society due to the many wars which killed off many men, leaving a surplus of women in some areas, and men who just didn't want to participate in family life, problems with alcoholism and so forth.  It's not clear to me what exactly is going on with Russian men, but it is clear that many Russian women look for men outside of Russia to find a suitable husband for raising a family to the point that it has become cliche.  A lot of women are also trafficked by the Russian mafia and other groups from that part of the world because women are looking to escape crushing poverty, and end up in slavery. 

Urban women, like elsewhere in developed or developing countries are probably similar in that they have figured out they don't need the hassle of an alcoholic abusive husband, and can be quite fulfilled by working and living how they choose.  They've figured out that they have to work, but then they have to go home and work again.  They carry a double burden.  Maybe a lot of women are deciding that don't want the double burden. 

Russia has a declining net population, so that may be part of what Patriarch Kiril is trying to address.  Also, abortion is widely and easily available in Russia, and is often used as a form of birth control rather than as a last resort since it is so cheap.  People who are already in poverty don't necessarily want to add children to the mix, or if they are moderately comfortable, they may not want many children.  Women can't be out being good little communist workers driving trucks and building railroads when they have a passle of kids to take care of as well.  And Soviet collective daycare didn't always work out so well. 

Other concerns the Patriarch Kiril could address are the high levels of alcoholism, and educating people about alcohol use during pregnancy.  From what I've heard, Russians don't even consider beer to be alcohol, but as a food.  I recently heard of someone drinking beer during the fast, and others were confused, thinking that abstention from alcohol is part of the fast.  Apparently not in the Russian tradition, which made sense to me if they really classify beer as food. 

So, it's not clear to me why Patriarch Kiril would just choose one aspect of modern Russian society on which to comment when there are obviously many other problems he could address as well, if that is indeed what happened. 

Could be the western press just picked up on the one part of what he said because it goes against sensibility. 

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« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2013, 04:20:02 PM »


What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  


 Given the cultural milieu in which HH Patriarch KIRILL made his comments, deciphering his intended meaning seemed rather elementary.  There is, however, one concrete way in which to settle the matter and afford all with an answer:  simply write or email his office and voila!, mystery solved.

My question was more general. Considering some of the responses here on the forum, what do people mean when they use the word and what are real definitions rather that mere labels?

Yes, having a formal academic list of definitions doesn't really help one understand to what a person is referring.  Even saying "feminists are women who hate men" is wide open to interpretation.  One man may think any small criticism of men equals 'hatred', but it is really what you said earlier, just differentiating a person from a doormat. 

Interesting posts about history, btw.
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« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2013, 04:40:07 PM »

My opinion, also after having read the Russian text, is that Patriarch Kirill has made a statement that is too general and undifferenciated. Therefore I think Carl Kraeff's comment is extremely helpful.

Btw, there also is such as thing as Orthodox feminism. In fact, the first independent (ie not aligned to the Communist party) women's movement in the USSR in the late 1970s was explicitely Orthodox. Tatiana Goricheva is still alive, maybe the Patriarch could have a talk with her, before uttering such statements, which scare off many people from the Church...

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« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2013, 05:35:18 PM »

Would be interesting to learn more about the role of women in Russian history.  

Russia differs from women in Europe and the Northern Americas, Australia, etc. in that they were handed 'equal rights' by the Soviet regime, which didn't necessarily give them access to the upper echelons of power, it just put them out doing hard labor.

I'm not so sure about them being out of "hard labor".  Women were working in factories and fields after the Soviet revolution.  I've seen posters and stamps for example that show women in these sorts of jobs.  Of course, some had the chance to be doctors and academics and other such occupations as well.  But I have read that forced marriages were banned in Russia in 1722 and a women's medical university was opened in the 1890s so here were some changes in tsarist Russia, too.

Quote
They just had to go to work like men did, even fighting in wars as snipers and so forth.  They didn't have a long struggle for basic human rights, the right to vote, the right to equal pay for equal work, like women in the west.  By all accounts I've read though, Russian still lags far behind the west in fair compensation, women earning 60% to 40% of a man for the same work.

I've seen a bit on that as well.  Here's an article with a bit on that:
http://www.waytorussia.net/WhatIsRussia/Women/Facts.html


Quote
Seems like there is a breakdown in general Russian society due to the many wars which killed off many men, leaving a surplus of women in some areas, and men who just didn't want to participate in family life, problems with alcoholism and so forth.  


Alcoholism is still a serious problem and from what I've read one of the leading causes of early death. Here are a couple of links:

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100114/157541676.html
http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/09-11-2006/85432-alcoholism-0/    

Quote
A lot of women are also trafficked by the Russian mafia and other groups from that part of the world because women are looking to escape crushing poverty, and end up in slavery.  

Trafficking is indeed a serious and evil problem and it fits in here as basically the women are being taken and used as property which is something that the Women's movement is against.  

Quote
They've figured out that they have to work, but then they have to go home and work again.  They carry a double burden.  Maybe a lot of women are deciding that don't want the double burden.

And if doing things at home is considered "women's work" by some men such that they do not engage in it themselves it is, as you wrote, double burden.

Quote
Russia has a declining net population, so that may be part of what Patriarch Kiril is trying to address.  Also, abortion is widely and easily available in Russia, and is often used as a form of birth control rather than as a last resort since it is so cheap.  People who are already in poverty don't necessarily want to add children to the mix, or if they are moderately comfortable, they may not want many children.  Women can't be out being good little communist workers driving trucks and building railroads when they have a passle of kids to take care of as well.  And Soviet collective daycare didn't always work out so well.  

Other concerns the Patriarch Kiril could address are the high levels of alcoholism, and educating people about alcohol use during pregnancy.  From what I've heard, Russians don't even consider beer to be alcohol, but as a food.  I recently heard of someone drinking beer during the fast, and others were confused, thinking that abstention from alcohol is part of the fast.  Apparently not in the Russian tradition, which made sense to me if they really classify beer as food.  

I have been told by a person who lived there for a while that fetal alcohol syndrome is having an affect on some parts of society.

Quote
So, it's not clear to me why Patriarch Kiril would just choose one aspect of modern Russian society on which to comment when there are obviously many other problems he could address as well, if that is indeed what happened.  

Patriarch Kiril has been viewed with some negativity by parts of Russian society for some dealings such as tobacco importation, a law suit about an apartment that he owns and his support of Vladimir Putin.  Earlier in this thread a poster mentioned a bit.  The lyrics of the female group mentioned above were against both the current President and some aspects of the Russian Church (I must state that I read them in translation just to be clear).  So perhaps that is one reason that the Patriarch spoke on this particular aspect.
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« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2013, 05:48:08 PM »


What are real meanings of the term rather that slurs?  


 Given the cultural milieu in which HH Patriarch KIRILL made his comments, deciphering his intended meaning seemed rather elementary.  There is, however, one concrete way in which to settle the matter and afford all with an answer:  simply write or email his office and voila!, mystery solved.

My question was more general. Considering some of the responses here on the forum, what do people mean when they use the word and what are real definitions rather that mere labels?

Yes, having a formal academic list of definitions doesn't really help one understand to what a person is referring.  Even saying "feminists are women who hate men" is wide open to interpretation. 

As well as being a sweeping generalization and one that does not apply to real women for the most part.  A person's opinion may not really be the fact of a matter.  Undecided

Quote
One man may think any small criticism of men equals 'hatred', but it is really what you said earlier, just differentiating a person from a doormat. 

Interesting posts about history, btw.

Often people do not like to be disagreed with and they may consider someone doing so to them to be deep personal criticism or an "attack" or the like.  They don't like it, but that doesn't mean that the other person has any "hate".  Then again not being a doormat may offend some who prefer that others don't speak up.

I'm glad that you found them interesting. 
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« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2013, 05:50:21 PM »

My opinion, also after having read the Russian text, is that Patriarch Kirill has made a statement that is too general and undifferenciated. Therefore I think Carl Kraeff's comment is extremely helpful.

Btw, there also is such as thing as Orthodox feminism. In fact, the first independent (ie not aligned to the Communist party) women's movement in the USSR in the late 1970s was explicitely Orthodox. Tatiana Goricheva is still alive, maybe the Patriarch could have a talk with her, before uttering such statements, which scare off many people from the Church...

I had not heard of this lady before. I must look her up.  Thank you for this.
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« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2013, 10:58:18 PM »

Would be interesting to learn more about the role of women in Russian history.  

Russia differs from women in Europe and the Northern Americas, Australia, etc. in that they were handed 'equal rights' by the Soviet regime, which didn't necessarily give them access to the upper echelons of power, it just put them out doing hard labor.

I'm not so sure about them being out of "hard labor".  Women were working in factories and fields after the Soviet revolution.  I've seen posters and stamps for example that show women in these sorts of jobs.  Of course, some had the chance to be doctors and academics and other such occupations as well.  But I have read that forced marriages were banned in Russia in 1722 and a women's medical university was opened in the 1890s so here were some changes in tsarist Russia, too.

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They just had to go to work like men did, even fighting in wars as snipers and so forth.  They didn't have a long struggle for basic human rights, the right to vote, the right to equal pay for equal work, like women in the west.  By all accounts I've read though, Russian still lags far behind the west in fair compensation, women earning 60% to 40% of a man for the same work.

I've seen a bit on that as well.  Here's an article with a bit on that:
http://www.waytorussia.net/WhatIsRussia/Women/Facts.html


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Seems like there is a breakdown in general Russian society due to the many wars which killed off many men, leaving a surplus of women in some areas, and men who just didn't want to participate in family life, problems with alcoholism and so forth.  


Alcoholism is still a serious problem and from what I've read one of the leading causes of early death. Here are a couple of links:

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100114/157541676.html
http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/09-11-2006/85432-alcoholism-0/    

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A lot of women are also trafficked by the Russian mafia and other groups from that part of the world because women are looking to escape crushing poverty, and end up in slavery.  

Trafficking is indeed a serious and evil problem and it fits in here as basically the women are being taken and used as property which is something that the Women's movement is against.  

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They've figured out that they have to work, but then they have to go home and work again.  They carry a double burden.  Maybe a lot of women are deciding that don't want the double burden.

And if doing things at home is considered "women's work" by some men such that they do not engage in it themselves it is, as you wrote, double burden.

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Russia has a declining net population, so that may be part of what Patriarch Kiril is trying to address.  Also, abortion is widely and easily available in Russia, and is often used as a form of birth control rather than as a last resort since it is so cheap.  People who are already in poverty don't necessarily want to add children to the mix, or if they are moderately comfortable, they may not want many children.  Women can't be out being good little communist workers driving trucks and building railroads when they have a passle of kids to take care of as well.  And Soviet collective daycare didn't always work out so well.  

Other concerns the Patriarch Kiril could address are the high levels of alcoholism, and educating people about alcohol use during pregnancy.  From what I've heard, Russians don't even consider beer to be alcohol, but as a food.  I recently heard of someone drinking beer during the fast, and others were confused, thinking that abstention from alcohol is part of the fast.  Apparently not in the Russian tradition, which made sense to me if they really classify beer as food.  

I have been told by a person who lived there for a while that fetal alcohol syndrome is having an affect on some parts of society.

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So, it's not clear to me why Patriarch Kiril would just choose one aspect of modern Russian society on which to comment when there are obviously many other problems he could address as well, if that is indeed what happened.  

Patriarch Kiril has been viewed with some negativity by parts of Russian society for some dealings such as tobacco importation, a law suit about an apartment that he owns and his support of Vladimir Putin.  Earlier in this thread a poster mentioned a bit.  The lyrics of the female group mentioned above were against both the current President and some aspects of the Russian Church (I must state that I read them in translation just to be clear).  So perhaps that is one reason that the Patriarch spoke on this particular aspect.


Thank you for the links. 

Just a by the way, I had to find a doctor last week.  I searched the clinic for the specialist I want to see, and voila, there she is, a Russian woman, bilingual English / Russian with a distinctly British surname practicing at the top of her field at a very good hospital.  So I made an appointment with her Smiley  Perfect.  Hope she has good news for me.  Well, whatever it turns out, with God's help it will all be good in the end.
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« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2013, 11:22:58 PM »

My opinion, also after having read the Russian text, is that Patriarch Kirill has made a statement that is too general and undifferenciated. Therefore I think Carl Kraeff's comment is extremely helpful.

Btw, there also is such as thing as Orthodox feminism. In fact, the first independent (ie not aligned to the Communist party) women's movement in the USSR in the late 1970s was explicitely Orthodox. Tatiana Goricheva is still alive, maybe the Patriarch could have a talk with her, before uttering such statements, which scare off many people from the Church...



I think Carl Kraeff makes very helpful comments on a regular basis, from what I have seen.  I believe that his statements are true for him, that he is reasonable, and that he intends them in the best way possible.    It is a very subjective topic when abstract terms are used with no common cultural basis and even with great variance within one culture, let alone across multiple cultures.   





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