Author Topic: Masoretic Vs. Septuagint  (Read 6502 times)

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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Masoretic Vs. Septuagint
« Reply #90 on: March 07, 2014, 11:36:24 AM »
the NT quotes from the Septuagint

Sometimes, but not exclusively, making it especially hard for a KJV Septuagint-only believer.
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Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: Masoretic Vs. Septuagint
« Reply #91 on: March 07, 2014, 11:40:01 AM »
the NT quotes from the Septuagint

Sometimes, but not exclusively, making it especially hard for a KJV Septuagint-only believer.

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Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: Masoretic Vs. Septuagint
« Reply #92 on: March 07, 2014, 11:41:54 AM »
The Septuagint contradicts the Masoretic, the NT quotes from the Septuagint, therefore it's internally inconsistent when the Masoretic is used as the Old Testament vorlage.

Especially hard for a Biblical inerrantist.

I'm familiar with this line of thought, but I supposed M. Kosta had more in mind than just this, which is why I asked him/her.
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline systratiotes

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Re: Masoretic Vs. Septuagint
« Reply #93 on: March 07, 2014, 06:40:03 PM »
The Septuagint contradicts the Masoretic, the NT quotes from the Septuagint, therefore it's internally inconsistent when the Masoretic is used as the Old Testament vorlage.

Especially hard for a Biblical inerrantist.

I'm familiar with this line of thought, but I supposed M. Kosta had more in mind than just this, which is why I asked him/her.

I'm male.

Point one is lexical: The translators of the Seventy translated the entire Hebrew theological vocabulary into Greek. Every word of that translated theological vocabulary was used by the writers of the New Testament to convey God's truth to us.  Because of this we can connect Hebrew theological terminology with Greek with great confidence - without the Seventy much less so.  

Point two is analytical.  My analysis is that in 27 of 28 times the Apostle Paul wrote the words "καθως γεγραπται" (it is written) he cited at least partly from the Seventy. (Gal.3:13 is not a citation, but a statement of fact)  Sometimes Paul cited verbatim, sometimes he cited partly and paraphrased the rest to support his teaching point.  My test for a citation is, I expect at least three words not counting connectives or pronouns cited more or less in order with similar grammar.  Except for Gal.3:13, Paul's "καθως γεγραπται" citations fit that test.  Where New Testament citations of the Old Testament are at variance with the Hebrew Masoretic, men have concocted untenable explanations because they don't understand the structural relationship between the Seventy and the New Testament.  For instance, Heb.10:5 compared to Psa.40;6. The Hebrews citation is from the Seventy. "a body you have prepared me'.  The Hebrew has, "mine ears have you opened".  I realize that Rahlfs cosmopoltian LXX text blurs the comparison, but proper exegesis of the Hebrews passage stands partly on the Seventy.  Confusion is introduced when the Hebrew verse is compared.

Point three is doctrinal.  New Testament doctrine is framed by the authority of the Seventy's reading.  Where the Hebrew is variant it sometimes undermines the doctrinal premise.  Case in point, Heb.2:7 in reference to Christ the writer cites from the Seventy "you have made Him a little lower than angles".  The Masoretic Hebrew reads, "you have made him a little lower than God."  Most older English translations follow the Seventy's reading instead of the Hebrew to maintain doctrinal continuity.  Some modern translations follow the Hebrew and cultists revel in the heterodoxy implied.  The same case can be made for Mat.1:23 which cites Isa.7:14. Matthew cited the Seventy to establish the doctrine of the Virgin Birth of Christ.  Some modern translations translate the Hebrew "Almah" as maiden, not virgin.  Thus some try to overturn the Virgin Birth by interpreting the Hebrew meaning as something other than virgin.  Those are easy ones.  Compare Paul's Eph.5:18 where is reads: "and be not filled with wine"  (και μη μεθυσκεσθε οινω) then compare Prov 23:31.  In the Hebrew you won't see the citation.  In the Greek of the Seventy you will see it plainly.
   
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« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 06:42:22 PM by systratiotes »

Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: Masoretic Vs. Septuagint
« Reply #94 on: March 07, 2014, 10:20:29 PM »
I could go on, but I'll make you wait for my book. ;D  

Not too long, I hope.  :)
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline systratiotes

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Re: Masoretic Vs. Septuagint
« Reply #95 on: March 08, 2014, 09:53:59 PM »
One book you may want to read is Timothy Michael Law's, "When God Spoke Greek, The Septuagint and the Making of the Christian Bible", published by Oxford University Press, 1979.  Its available in trade paperback.  Used hardcover editions are still expensive.  Law approaches the topic as a historian not a theologian.  His historical evidence is quite solid, except he seems to have bought into Julius Wellhausen's so-called "Document Thesis".  But even with that caveat I'd give the book pretty high marks.

M. Kostas, ThM

Offline Gamliel

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Re: Masoretic Vs. Septuagint
« Reply #96 on: March 13, 2014, 11:49:04 PM »
A good read:  Invitation to the Septuagint / Karen H. Jobes and Moise's Silva.

Offline systratiotes

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Re: Masoretic Vs. Septuagint
« Reply #97 on: April 11, 2014, 03:43:48 PM »
A good read:  Invitation to the Septuagint / Karen H. Jobes and Moise's Silva.
Yes!  I have that book too.  Ms. Jobes is a well known scholar of the Seventy.  I've caught a few of her lectures.  She has long advocated scholarly attention to the Seventy even amongst evangelicals.

It's a little dated, but Sydney Jellicoe's book, "The Septuagint and Modern Study Oxford University Press, 1978 is also instructive. 

M. Kostas