OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 30, 2014, 09:16:37 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Masoretic Vs. Septuagint  (Read 3138 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,353


« Reply #90 on: March 07, 2014, 11:36:24 AM »

the NT quotes from the Septuagint

Sometimes, but not exclusively, making it especially hard for a KJV Septuagint-only believer.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,472


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #91 on: March 07, 2014, 11:40:01 AM »

the NT quotes from the Septuagint

Sometimes, but not exclusively, making it especially hard for a KJV Septuagint-only believer.

DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,472


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #92 on: March 07, 2014, 11:41:54 AM »

The Septuagint contradicts the Masoretic, the NT quotes from the Septuagint, therefore it's internally inconsistent when the Masoretic is used as the Old Testament vorlage.

Especially hard for a Biblical inerrantist.

I'm familiar with this line of thought, but I supposed M. Kosta had more in mind than just this, which is why I asked him/her.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
systratiotes
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Primitive Christian
Jurisdiction: Universal
Posts: 6


« Reply #93 on: March 07, 2014, 06:40:03 PM »

The Septuagint contradicts the Masoretic, the NT quotes from the Septuagint, therefore it's internally inconsistent when the Masoretic is used as the Old Testament vorlage.

Especially hard for a Biblical inerrantist.

I'm familiar with this line of thought, but I supposed M. Kosta had more in mind than just this, which is why I asked him/her.

I'm male.

Point one is lexical: The translators of the Seventy translated the entire Hebrew theological vocabulary into Greek. Every word of that translated theological vocabulary was used by the writers of the New Testament to convey God's truth to us.  Because of this we can connect Hebrew theological terminology with Greek with great confidence - without the Seventy much less so.  

Point two is analytical.  My analysis is that in 27 of 28 times the Apostle Paul wrote the words "καθως γεγραπται" (it is written) he cited at least partly from the Seventy. (Gal.3:13 is not a citation, but a statement of fact)  Sometimes Paul cited verbatim, sometimes he cited partly and paraphrased the rest to support his teaching point.  My test for a citation is, I expect at least three words not counting connectives or pronouns cited more or less in order with similar grammar.  Except for Gal.3:13, Paul's "καθως γεγραπται" citations fit that test.  Where New Testament citations of the Old Testament are at variance with the Hebrew Masoretic, men have concocted untenable explanations because they don't understand the structural relationship between the Seventy and the New Testament.  For instance, Heb.10:5 compared to Psa.40;6. The Hebrews citation is from the Seventy. "a body you have prepared me'.  The Hebrew has, "mine ears have you opened".  I realize that Rahlfs cosmopoltian LXX text blurs the comparison, but proper exegesis of the Hebrews passage stands partly on the Seventy.  Confusion is introduced when the Hebrew verse is compared.

Point three is doctrinal.  New Testament doctrine is framed by the authority of the Seventy's reading.  Where the Hebrew is variant it sometimes undermines the doctrinal premise.  Case in point, Heb.2:7 in reference to Christ the writer cites from the Seventy "you have made Him a little lower than angles".  The Masoretic Hebrew reads, "you have made him a little lower than God."  Most older English translations follow the Seventy's reading instead of the Hebrew to maintain doctrinal continuity.  Some modern translations follow the Hebrew and cultists revel in the heterodoxy implied.  The same case can be made for Mat.1:23 which cites Isa.7:14. Matthew cited the Seventy to establish the doctrine of the Virgin Birth of Christ.  Some modern translations translate the Hebrew "Almah" as maiden, not virgin.  Thus some try to overturn the Virgin Birth by interpreting the Hebrew meaning as something other than virgin.  Those are easy ones.  Compare Paul's Eph.5:18 where is reads: "and be not filled with wine"  (και μη μεθυσκεσθε οινω) then compare Prov 23:31.  In the Hebrew you won't see the citation.  In the Greek of the Seventy you will see it plainly.
   
I could go on, but I'll make you wait for my book. Grin  
 
       
M. Kostas
  
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 06:42:22 PM by systratiotes » Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,472


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #94 on: March 07, 2014, 10:20:29 PM »

I could go on, but I'll make you wait for my book. Grin  

Not too long, I hope.  Smiley
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
systratiotes
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Primitive Christian
Jurisdiction: Universal
Posts: 6


« Reply #95 on: March 08, 2014, 09:53:59 PM »

One book you may want to read is Timothy Michael Law's, "When God Spoke Greek, The Septuagint and the Making of the Christian Bible", published by Oxford University Press, 1979.  Its available in trade paperback.  Used hardcover editions are still expensive.  Law approaches the topic as a historian not a theologian.  His historical evidence is quite solid, except he seems to have bought into Julius Wellhausen's so-called "Document Thesis".  But even with that caveat I'd give the book pretty high marks.

M. Kostas, ThM
Logged
Gamliel
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 2,003



« Reply #96 on: March 13, 2014, 11:49:04 PM »

A good read:  Invitation to the Septuagint / Karen H. Jobes and Moise's Silva.
Logged
systratiotes
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Primitive Christian
Jurisdiction: Universal
Posts: 6


« Reply #97 on: April 11, 2014, 03:43:48 PM »

A good read:  Invitation to the Septuagint / Karen H. Jobes and Moise's Silva.
Yes!  I have that book too.  Ms. Jobes is a well known scholar of the Seventy.  I've caught a few of her lectures.  She has long advocated scholarly attention to the Seventy even amongst evangelicals.

It's a little dated, but Sydney Jellicoe's book, "The Septuagint and Modern Study Oxford University Press, 1978 is also instructive. 

M. Kostas
Logged
Tags: Septuagint 
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.054 seconds with 35 queries.