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Author Topic: Masoretic Vs. Septuagint  (Read 3835 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 08, 2013, 09:34:14 PM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2013, 09:53:02 PM »

Because Protestants believed that the Masoretic text was the older of the two, more textually accurate, and wasn't used by those dirty dirty Roman Catholics with their Vulgates. Any proof to the contrary is swallowed up by the fact that the Protestants have been using the Masoretic text for 500 years now, and Tradition!
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2013, 10:02:41 PM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?
Because its what Martin Luther used when he spilt from the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants have an aversion to anything similar to the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2013, 10:13:27 PM »

Because Protestants believed that the Masoretic text was the older of the two, more textually accurate, and wasn't used by those dirty dirty Roman Catholics with their Vulgates. Any proof to the contrary is swallowed up by the fact that the Protestants have been using the Masoretic text for 500 years now, and Tradition!

Actually, you have a great point, if I am reading you correctly.  Protestants will speak against "tradition" yet they will adhere to sola scriptura, and then choose a scriptura that was completed only 900 years after the Incarnation by a group that had no love for Christianity, they thereby appeal to tradition to defend its continued use. 
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2013, 10:13:55 PM »

Several reasons. Mostly because it's what Martin Luther used and thus Protestants for quite a while have been using it and so it's just what they are used to; this, combined with xenophobia to anything resembling the Roman Catholic Church, has caused many Protestant folks to view the Septuagint as just being this bad Papist forgery or that Roman Catholics "added books" to the Bible. For the most part, it's just ignorance combined with an aversion to anything Roman Catholic in nature. Secondly, I think it is probably because they view it as being more accurate or reliable, since it's newer. For us Orthodox Christians, we don't see the decisions of Jews after Christ as being authoritive. But many Protestants--possibly due to Zionism--still have this idea that the Jews have some special Covenant with God and are "saved," thus, they see the Masoretic as being authoritive coming from "God's people." This is why many Protestants today try to recreate Jewish worship or will consult Rabbis and Jewish scholars for information on the Old Testament, which, I find kind of odd. Why is it that so many Protestants are more open to hearing what Jews have to say than they are what the Church Fathers have to say?
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2013, 11:49:33 PM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?
Because its what Martin Luther used when he spilt from the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants have an aversion to anything similar to the Catholic Church.

When it comes to the protocanonical books, isn't Jerome's Vulgate nearer to the Massoretic text than to the Septuagint?  Huh

A famous example Jonah 3:4
Quote
And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

The Protestant Bibles and the Vulgate read forty days. The Septuagint reads three.
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2013, 05:39:19 AM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?
Because its what Martin Luther used when he spilt from the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants have an aversion to anything similar to the Catholic Church.
Sorry, can't blame the Protestants for this one: St. Jerome led the West astray when he abandoned the LXX and translated the Vulgate from a Hebrew text.  The Protestants only followed suit.
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2013, 07:01:50 AM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?
Because its what Martin Luther used when he spilt from the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants have an aversion to anything similar to the Catholic Church.
Sorry, can't blame the Protestants for this one: St. Jerome led the West astray when he abandoned the LXX and translated the Vulgate from a Hebrew text.  The Protestants only followed suit.

But, I said similar, not identical.
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2013, 05:19:37 PM »

But many Protestants--possibly due to Zionism--still have this idea that the Jews have some special Covenant with God and are "saved," thus, they see the Masoretic as being authoritive coming from "God's people." This is why many Protestants today try to recreate Jewish worship or will consult Rabbis and Jewish scholars for information on the Old Testament, which, I find kind of odd. Why is it that so many Protestants are more open to hearing what Jews have to say than they are what the Church Fathers have to say?
I was always told that the people who wrote the majority of the Masoretic were Karaites, go figure.
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2013, 05:20:06 PM »

NVM
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2013, 05:26:15 PM »

But many Protestants--possibly due to Zionism--still have this idea that the Jews have some special Covenant with God and are "saved," thus, they see the Masoretic as being authoritive coming from "God's people." This is why many Protestants today try to recreate Jewish worship or will consult Rabbis and Jewish scholars for information on the Old Testament, which, I find kind of odd. Why is it that so many Protestants are more open to hearing what Jews have to say than they are what the Church Fathers have to say?
I was always told that the people who wrote the majority of the Masoretic were Karaites, go figure.
Never heard of them.  Who are they?
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2013, 05:33:45 PM »

This is why many Protestants today try to recreate Jewish worship or will consult Rabbis and Jewish scholars for information on the Old Testament, which, I find kind of odd. Why is it that so many Protestants are more open to hearing what Jews have to say than they are what the Church Fathers have to say?

Great question JamesR, I've wondered the same thing!

This is something that I have increasingly become aware of and I wonder the same thing.  The answer might have something to do with the idea that Greek philosophy corrupted the theology of the Church Fathers . . . the so-called "Hellenization thesis" of von Harnack.  I want to know more about this and am really not the person to even bring it up.
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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2013, 05:48:24 PM »

But many Protestants--possibly due to Zionism--still have this idea that the Jews have some special Covenant with God and are "saved," thus, they see the Masoretic as being authoritive coming from "God's people." This is why many Protestants today try to recreate Jewish worship or will consult Rabbis and Jewish scholars for information on the Old Testament, which, I find kind of odd. Why is it that so many Protestants are more open to hearing what Jews have to say than they are what the Church Fathers have to say?
I was always told that the people who wrote the majority of the Masoretic were Karaites, go figure.
Never heard of them.  Who are they?
Jews who completely (or at least, so they claim) reject the Talmud and the authority of the Rabbis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism
http://www.karaite-korner.org/
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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2013, 06:51:50 PM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?
Because its what Martin Luther used when he spilt from the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants have an aversion to anything similar to the Catholic Church.
Sorry, can't blame the Protestants for this one: St. Jerome led the West astray when he abandoned the LXX and translated the Vulgate from a Hebrew text.  The Protestants only followed suit.


But at least Jerome's Hebrew text was less edited in an anti-Christian fashion than the final Masoretic. 
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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2013, 07:20:49 PM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?
Because its what Martin Luther used when he spilt from the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants have an aversion to anything similar to the Catholic Church.
Sorry, can't blame the Protestants for this one: St. Jerome led the West astray when he abandoned the LXX and translated the Vulgate from a Hebrew text.  The Protestants only followed suit.


But at least Jerome's Hebrew text was less edited in an anti-Christian fashion than the final Masoretic. 
Not according to this site

Quote
The Jews attacked the Septuagint from the beginning because they claimed that it had been corrupted by the Christians and that the Christians changed the word in the Septuagint to read virgin instead of young woman so that it would support the reading in Matthew. Of course, the Edomite Jews did not believe that Jesus was the true Messiah; this was why they were attacking the Septuagint. The Jews are the ones who changed the Hebrew, replacing the word virgin with young woman. The early motive of the Edomite Jews was to destroy Christianity, not just the Septuagint. But the Christians did not give in, so the Jews changed their strategy. They instead decided to corrupt the Old Testament and gain control of the Christians by giving them a corrupted Old Testament. By the 3rd century they began collecting every Hebrew manuscript they could, and this was easy to do because the Christians used the Greek Septuagint and cared little for the Hebrew. They then began revising the Hebrew documents to support their Jewish contentions. By the time of Jerome, they began taking the soft approach and gave Jerome their new Hebrew for him to use in his translation. But, as we said before, the Christians at first rejected the Vulgate. So the Jews continued working on their text. From the 1st century to the middle of the 5th century, they called themselves Talmudists; from the 5th century to the completion of their text in the 10th-11th centuries, they called themselves Masoretes.
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 09:00:14 PM »

But many Protestants--possibly due to Zionism--still have this idea that the Jews have some special Covenant with God and are "saved," thus, they see the Masoretic as being authoritive coming from "God's people." This is why many Protestants today try to recreate Jewish worship or will consult Rabbis and Jewish scholars for information on the Old Testament, which, I find kind of odd. Why is it that so many Protestants are more open to hearing what Jews have to say than they are what the Church Fathers have to say?
I was always told that the people who wrote the majority of the Masoretic were Karaites, go figure.
Never heard of them.  Who are they?
Jews who completely (or at least, so they claim) reject the Talmud and the authority of the Rabbis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism
http://www.karaite-korner.org/

So basically like the Protestants of Judaism?
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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 09:02:27 PM »

Because Protestants believed that the Masoretic text was the older of the two, more textually accurate

And strangely they are often correct.

Use both.
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2013, 09:03:57 PM »

Because Protestants believed that the Masoretic text was the older of the two, more textually accurate, and wasn't used by those dirty dirty Roman Catholics with their Vulgates. Any proof to the contrary is swallowed up by the fact that the Protestants have been using the Masoretic text for 500 years now, and Tradition!

Actually, you have a great point, if I am reading you correctly.  Protestants will speak against "tradition" yet they will adhere to sola scriptura, and then choose a scriptura that was completed only 900 years after the Incarnation by a group that had no love for Christianity, they thereby appeal to tradition to defend its continued use. 

The problem with people arguing about sola scriptura is that usually neither party knows what they are arguing over as in the above.
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2013, 09:06:18 PM »

Because Protestants believed that the Masoretic text was the older of the two, more textually accurate

And strangely they are often correct.

Use both.

Sure. Isolate that part. Ignore the vulgar pun.
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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2013, 09:08:30 PM »

But many Protestants--possibly due to Zionism--still have this idea that the Jews have some special Covenant with God and are "saved," thus, they see the Masoretic as being authoritive coming from "God's people." This is why many Protestants today try to recreate Jewish worship or will consult Rabbis and Jewish scholars for information on the Old Testament, which, I find kind of odd. Why is it that so many Protestants are more open to hearing what Jews have to say than they are what the Church Fathers have to say?
I was always told that the people who wrote the majority of the Masoretic were Karaites, go figure.
Never heard of them.  Who are they?
Jews who completely (or at least, so they claim) reject the Talmud and the authority of the Rabbis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism
http://www.karaite-korner.org/

So basically like the Protestants of Judaism?
Interestingly enough, I saw a seminar by one of them who described it as "8th century Jewish Protestantism."

Scratch the surface though and they've got more problems than that, their style of worship is so similar and so heavily influenced that they are seen by some outsiders as "Muslims who reject Jesus and Mouhammed."

Then there are people like Michael Rood who identify themselves as "Messianic Karaites" (non-trinitarian, of course) so basically just Islam without Mouhammed.
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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2013, 09:17:50 PM »

This is a bit off topic.

There are times when Protestants prefer the Vulgate to the Massoretic and the Septuagint. For example Louis Segond's Bible (French).

Quote
Gen 3:15 Je mettrai inimitié entre toi et la femme, entre ta postérité et sa postérité : celle-ci t'écrasera la tête, et tu lui blesseras le talon.
http://www.info-bible.org/lsg/01.Genese.html#3

It is the woman who crushes the serpent's head, exactly like in the Clementine Vulgate.

Quote
Gen 3:15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem, et semen tuum et semen illius: ipsa conteret caput tuum, et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus.
http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/Gn.html
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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2013, 09:20:53 PM »

This is a bit off topic.

There are times when Protestants prefer the Vulgate to the Massoretic and the Septuagint. For example Louis Segond's Bible (French).

Quote
Gen 3:15 Je mettrai inimitié entre toi et la femme, entre ta postérité et sa postérité : celle-ci t'écrasera la tête, et tu lui blesseras le talon.
http://www.info-bible.org/lsg/01.Genese.html#3

It is the woman who crushes the serpent's head, exactly like in the Clementine Vulgate.

Quote
Gen 3:15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem, et semen tuum et semen illius: ipsa conteret caput tuum, et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus.
http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/Gn.html
Interesting, mind doing a translation, I was unaware that there was a controversial translation of Genesis 3:15.
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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2013, 09:36:54 PM »

This is a bit off topic.

There are times when Protestants prefer the Vulgate to the Massoretic and the Septuagint. For example Louis Segond's Bible (French).

Quote
Gen 3:15 Je mettrai inimitié entre toi et la femme, entre ta postérité et sa postérité : celle-ci t'écrasera la tête, et tu lui blesseras le talon.
http://www.info-bible.org/lsg/01.Genese.html#3

It is the woman who crushes the serpent's head, exactly like in the Clementine Vulgate.

Quote
Gen 3:15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem, et semen tuum et semen illius: ipsa conteret caput tuum, et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus.
http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/Gn.html
Interesting, mind doing a translation, I was unaware that there was a controversial translation of Genesis 3:15.

It was discussed here :

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40765.msg665680.html#msg665680

Translation from the French of Louis Segond
Quote
Gen 3 :15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy posterity and her posterity; the latter (feminine) shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his/her heel.
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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2013, 09:43:17 PM »

This is a bit off topic.

There are times when Protestants prefer the Vulgate to the Massoretic and the Septuagint. For example Louis Segond's Bible (French).

Quote
Gen 3:15 Je mettrai inimitié entre toi et la femme, entre ta postérité et sa postérité : celle-ci t'écrasera la tête, et tu lui blesseras le talon.
http://www.info-bible.org/lsg/01.Genese.html#3

It is the woman who crushes the serpent's head, exactly like in the Clementine Vulgate.

Quote
Gen 3:15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem, et semen tuum et semen illius: ipsa conteret caput tuum, et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus.
http://vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/Gn.html
Interesting, mind doing a translation, I was unaware that there was a controversial translation of Genesis 3:15.

It was discussed here :

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40765.msg665680.html#msg665680

Translation from the French of Louis Segond
Quote
Gen 3 :15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy posterity and her posterity; the latter (feminine) shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his/her heel.

Interesting, I was always told that "her seed" is a reference to the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ.  I will definitely add this to my list interesting translation/interpretation differences to research when I wake up at midnight and can't fall asleep.
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2013, 06:23:03 AM »

But many Protestants--possibly due to Zionism--still have this idea that the Jews have some special Covenant with God and are "saved," thus, they see the Masoretic as being authoritive coming from "God's people." This is why many Protestants today try to recreate Jewish worship or will consult Rabbis and Jewish scholars for information on the Old Testament, which, I find kind of odd. Why is it that so many Protestants are more open to hearing what Jews have to say than they are what the Church Fathers have to say?
I was always told that the people who wrote the majority of the Masoretic were Karaites, go figure.
Never heard of them.  Who are they?
Jewish sola scripturists.
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« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2014, 11:41:46 AM »

i'm reading in pdf the book "textual criticism of the hebrew bible" of Emanuel Tov.

basically he says that the masoretes preserved very well a text that was already corrupted by the scribes. lol.
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« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2014, 01:30:30 PM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?

Most Protestants don't even know of the existence of the Septuagint. The Hebrew Bible, to them, is Hebrew.

Quote
Because Protestants believed that the Masoretic text was the older of the two, more textually accurate, and wasn't used by those dirty dirty Roman Catholics with their Vulgates. Any proof to the contrary is swallowed up by the fact that the Protestants have been using the Masoretic text for 500 years now, and Tradition!

Yeah, the Reformers saw that the Vulgate was, like the Septuagint, easily susceptible to textual corruption. So they started, or at least hoped to start, from a fresh slate.

Quote
Actually, you have a great point, if I am reading you correctly.  Protestants will speak against "tradition" yet they will adhere to sola scriptura, and then choose a scriptura that was completed only 900 years after the Incarnation by a group that had no love for Christianity, they thereby appeal to tradition to defend its continued use.
Protestants use a tradition. They use the Jewish Masorah, and then they purposefully mistranslate it to fit the New Testament readings. Psalm 2, for example is clear "Accept correction, lest at any time the Lord be angry, and ye should perish from the righteous way: whensoever his wrath shall be suddenly kindled, blessed are all they that trust in him." (LXX, Vulgate, Masoretic 2:12)

The Hebrew, Greek and Latin all say this. But Protestants, make their own translation in accordance with their new tradition to get it to read, "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (KJV)

Protestants defend their translation against sharp Jews who attack it's errant rendering. However, using the LXX and Vulgate, there is no making new 'understandings' of certain verses like the one here.
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« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2014, 01:52:30 PM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?

There's no good edition of the entire Septuagint out there.
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« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2014, 02:44:02 PM »

The masoretic text was begun after pharasaic jews completed the talmud.  Just look at the history of the talmud. I have the information in some of my college history textbooks and most agree the talmud was completed around 500 A.D.  After the talmud was completed, the masoretes, or the "traditional" jews began what we know today as the masoretic text.  This took around 500 years to finally finish.  The present edition of most protestant and some RC bibles -as far as the Old Testament is concerned- is this text: the masoretic text.  The "source" for that masoretic text is the Leningrad Codex, completed by -some sources say 1008 A.D. to 1010 A.D.:

See the proof:
The manuscript was written around the year 1010 C. E. It was probably written in Cairo, and later sold to someone living in Damascus.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/biblical_manuscripts/LeningradCodex.shtml

There is no substitute for us Orthodox Christians for the Septuagint.  I have both texts and compared the translations, when the NT writer, for example, St.Paul or Our Lord Jesus Christ quotes the OT, the Septuagint matches almost word by word -and in some cases, literally, word-by-word while the masoretic text sometimes renders the same translation almost entirely different.  

There is no match.  The Christian Old Testament IS THE SEPTUAGINT.
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« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2014, 03:07:12 PM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?
Because its what Martin Luther used when he spilt from the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants have an aversion to anything similar to the Catholic Church.

 It's known as "Romeophobia".
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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2014, 03:15:23 PM »

The masoretic text was begun after pharasaic jews completed the talmud.  Just look at the history of the talmud. I have the information in some of my college history textbooks and most agree the talmud was completed around 500 A.D.  After the talmud was completed, the masoretes, or the "traditional" jews began what we know today as the masoretic text.  This took around 500 years to finally finish.  The present edition of most protestant and some RC bibles -as far as the Old Testament is concerned- is this text: the masoretic text.  The "source" for that masoretic text is the Leningrad Codex, completed by -some sources say 1008 A.D. to 1010 A.D.:

See the proof:
The manuscript was written around the year 1010 C. E. It was probably written in Cairo, and later sold to someone living in Damascus.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/biblical_manuscripts/LeningradCodex.shtml

There is no substitute for us Orthodox Christians for the Septuagint.  I have both texts and compared the translations, when the NT writer, for example, St.Paul or Our Lord Jesus Christ quotes the OT, the Septuagint matches almost word by word -and in some cases, literally, word-by-word while the masoretic text sometimes renders the same translation almost entirely different. 

There is no match.  The Christian Old Testament IS THE SEPTUAGINT.

There is actually an earlier incomplete Aleppo Codex, which has all the books except the Torah. The Aleppo Codex is seen as the most authoritative because Maimonides is said to have used it.
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« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2014, 07:27:03 PM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?
Because its what Martin Luther used when he spilt from the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants have an aversion to anything similar to the Catholic Church.

 It's known as "Romeophobia".

The fear of Romeo.
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« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2014, 07:27:46 PM »

Quote
There is actually an earlier incomplete Aleppo Codex, which has all the books except the Torah. The Aleppo Codex is seen as the most authoritative because Maimonides is said to have used it.

Granted, the Aleppo Codex is earlier, though not even by 100 years, actually 70some years earlier.  From the Aleppo website:
"The Aleppo Codex is a full manuscript of the entire Bible, which was written in about 930."
http://www.aleppocodex.org/links/6.html  

As I had mentioned earlier, the Leningrad Codex is the basis for most jewish and protestant Bibles THUS its importance OVER other codexes and/or manuscripts.

The masoretic text is much more important -at least to jewish and protestant sources since they use it for their tanakh and Old Testament, respectively.  
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« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2014, 07:48:25 PM »

Quote
There is actually an earlier incomplete Aleppo Codex, which has all the books except the Torah. The Aleppo Codex is seen as the most authoritative because Maimonides is said to have used it.

Granted, the Aleppo Codex is earlier, though not even by 100 years, actually 70some years earlier.  From the Aleppo website:
"The Aleppo Codex is a full manuscript of the entire Bible, which was written in about 930."
http://www.aleppocodex.org/links/6.html 

As I had mentioned earlier, the Leningrad Codex is the basis for most jewish and protestant Bibles THUS its importance OVER other codexes and/or manuscripts.

The masoretic text is much more important -at least to jewish and protestant sources since they use it for their tanakh and Old Testament, respectively. 

Soon though, in Biblia Hebraica Quinta they will produce a Hebrew text with the Qumran variants included. So hopefully, future Western translations will be done with a larger Hebrew textual apparatus, and with more Septuagint readings, in mind.
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« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2014, 10:01:30 PM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?
Because its what Martin Luther used when he spilt from the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants have an aversion to anything similar to the Catholic Church.

 It's known as "Romeophobia".

The fear of Romeo.

Romeo was a young whippersnapper, but nothing to be feared really.  Romeophobia is really not a phobia of its own, but part of the far more dangerous and stealthy bardophobia, nicknamed the "willieshakes."
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« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2014, 10:16:54 PM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?
Because its what Martin Luther used when he spilt from the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants have an aversion to anything similar to the Catholic Church.

 It's known as "Romeophobia".

The fear of Romeo.

Romeo was a young whippersnapper, but nothing to be feared really.  Romeophobia is really not a phobia of its own, but part of the far more dangerous and stealthy bardophobia, nicknamed the "willieshakes."
Romeo must die.
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« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2014, 10:43:56 PM »

Protestants (at least the ones who believe in such things) only consider the books of the Bible to be inspired in the autographs (original manuscripts, not copies) in the original languages. A copy or a translation may be said to be "inspired," meaning that it matches the text or sense, respectively, of the autographs, but the act of divine inspiration is said only to have occurred in the original writing of the texts. Thus their goal is to utilize a text as close to the inspired original as possible. Hence their use of the Hebrew text and their enthusiasm for textual criticism (thought I think that many do not know that modern textual critics have by and large come to the conclusion that it is impossible to determine the original text with full accuracy).
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« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2014, 11:36:37 PM »

What's interesting is that the Dead Sea Scrolls passages of the psalter are closer in meaning and vocabulary to the Greek Septuagint as opposed to the Masoretic Canon.
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« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2014, 12:53:03 AM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?

If you mean real Protestants, like Lutherans, I don't know.  If you mean 'protestants' like everyone not Catholic or Orthodox, and you are doing a survey, I can say that one Baptist raised now non-denominational / avid watcher of televangelism (not sure what is on there, just that they said they watch tv preaching everyday) who claims to be a devoted authoritative Christian many years deep into Bible study doesn't know the difference between the two, had never heard of it.  They thought the Septuagint refers to the Dead Sea Scrolls.  They didn't know the LXX is quoted in the New Testament. 

That's one person in a sea of many, but probably are many who haven't heard of the Septuagint because it hasn't made it into the mainstream.   

So, it's an unrecognized hidden tradition now?   

I've heard of KJV only people too.  They won't accept any other version. 
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« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2014, 01:07:23 AM »

i'm reading in pdf the book "textual criticism of the hebrew bible" of Emanuel Tov.

basically he says that the masoretes preserved very well a text that was already corrupted by the scribes. lol.

Margaret Barker comes up with some interesting insights.  I read some of her work years ago, so it's a little vague, but basically she theorizes that the under King Josiah the Deuteronomists took over and killed off the first temple worship and reworked the Tanakh.  Now in Christianity, the first temple worship is brought back.  Some Mormons jump on this thinking her research proves they are right, but from what I've read, it sounds more like Orthodoxy.  

She gave a lecture at the memorial for Fr. Alexander Schmemann:  Our Great High Priest
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« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2014, 01:21:20 AM »

They use the Jewish Masorah, and then they purposefully mistranslate it to fit the New Testament readings. Psalm 2, for example is clear "Accept correction, lest at any time the Lord be angry, and ye should perish from the righteous way: whensoever his wrath shall be suddenly kindled, blessed are all they that trust in him." (LXX, Vulgate, Masoretic 2:12)

The Hebrew, Greek and Latin all say this. But Protestants, make their own translation in accordance with their new tradition to get it to read, "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (KJV)

Protestants defend their translation against sharp Jews who attack it's errant rendering. However, using the LXX and Vulgate, there is no making new 'understandings' of certain verses like the one here.

Interesting, though there are some Jews who pretty much attack any Christian belief.  For example, they say the Psalms were never meant to be prophecy, so the Psalm that describes the agony of Christ's crucifixion can't be read that way, it's not meant to be prophecy, therefore it is not prophecy.  Psalm 21: Oh God why have You forsaken me? 

Some try to read into that, but it seems pretty apparent that He was quoting the first line of the Psalm to evoke the entire Psalm.  Our fellow poster Mor Ephrem pointed this out the other day when discussing his memorization of the Psalms.   Given the first line, he can finish the Psalm.  It's how our memory functions with oral transmission. 
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« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2014, 07:42:44 AM »

Traditional protestant thinking is that the scriptures in their originally inspired languages would convey the most accurate meaning of the text.  A translation is thought to be inspired but could also contain some inherent errors or inaccuracies, hence many translation variants, editions and revisions.   Adherents of this view consider their position consistent and reasonable.  The original Greek is inherently superior to any translation in terms of accuracy, and the original Hebrew likewise.  It seems fair to say that Orthodoxy would applaud the fact that some segments of protestantism will endorse the Byzantine text which underlies the KJV for example over the Latin Vulgate but would criticise protestant preferences for the Hebrew Masoretic over the Old Testament Greek translation.   This poses the issue of whether there are inconsistencies and biases in the Orthodox approach or whether protestantism has got it wrong just about everywhere.
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« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2014, 03:53:44 PM »

Why do Protestants usually prefer the Masoretic over the Septuagint?
Because its what Martin Luther used when he spilt from the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants have an aversion to anything similar to the Catholic Church.

 It's known as "Romeophobia".

The fear of Romeo.

Romeo was a young whippersnapper, but nothing to be feared really.  Romeophobia is really not a phobia of its own, but part of the far more dangerous and stealthy bardophobia, nicknamed the "willieshakes."

That has far more scary/amusing etymological implications of its own.
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« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2014, 02:44:14 PM »

Quote
This poses the issue of whether there are inconsistencies and biases in the Orthodox approach or whether protestantism has got it wrong just about everywhere.
The latter, no doubt whatsoever.  "Protestantism" being a movement of different heresies, like you say "has got it wrong just about everywhere."  We have to keep in mind that unlike the Orthodox Church, protestantism was NOT The Church founded by Jesus Christ, therefore it could not inherit the correct tradition, understanding, interpretation and the correct canon of The Scriptures. 

For me, I trust The Church, the Fathers, the councils and Sacred Tradition and all of these, for the most part, point to the Septuagint as our Old Testament, while the Byzantine Text is the Received Text for the New Testament.

Besides, The Septuagint was originally used by the jews themselves almost 300 years before all the way before Our Lord's incarnation.  It was only after His incarnation and living in our midst and the evangelizing missions of the apostles that the jews began to have problems with the Septuagint. 

They then summoned the re-translations of the Septuagint and thus were born the different editions such as Aquila, Symmanchus and Theodotion that would fit more pharasaic interpretation and remove or alter the more obvious Christological allusions and prophesies.
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« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2014, 09:49:36 PM »

There is another reason why the Protestants rejected the Septuagint. It contains books that are not in the Hebrew text and which contain teachings that cannot be reconciled with Protestantism. For example, 2 Maccabees 12:38-46
    Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the sabbath there.
    [39] On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers.
    [40] Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.
    [41] So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden;
    [42] and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
    [43] He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
    [44] For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
    [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

That gives Biblical support for prayers for the dead, one of the doctrines that Protestants strongly rejected. Therefore, they rejected II Maccabees as part of the Bible because it did not fit into their theological system. One reason the Protestant rejected the Septuagint is that  II Maccabees is not found in the Hebrew canon. Luther set the stage for this by rejecting the Epistle of James as an "Epistle of straw" because it taught that faith without works is dead. Luther and all Protestants taught that we are saved by faith alone.

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