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Author Topic: Help this Catholic understand Orthodoxy when it comes to divorce and remarriage  (Read 2257 times) Average Rating: 0
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Wandile
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« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2014, 02:58:23 PM »

Excuse me, I made an error.

Divorce is not allowed, even in cases of adultery.
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« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2014, 03:00:19 PM »

Quote
Do you pretend that those children don't exist either?  Are they illegitimate?  A future event does not retroactively invalidate a past event. It's absurd.

Canon law states that at the time of the child’s birth, they were born of a legal marriage in civil law and a putative marriage in canon law (which means that everyone thought in good faith that the marriage was valid). So at the moment of the child's birth, he or she was civilly and canonically legitimate. An annulment DOES NOT retroactively affect a child's legitimacy.


I wasn't referring to children when I said a future event does not retroactively invalidate a past event.  I am referring to marriages that are valid but later fall apart only to be declared invalid so they can remarry.  Spousal abuse, 5 years after the DAY THE VOWS WERE EXCHANGED, DOES NOT invalidate a marriage.  If so many marriages really were lacking that is a serious problem not even just among the faithful but the clergy.  
Intent has a lot to do with the validity as well (in addition to form and matter) and it makes a mockery of matrimony to say so many never really existed.

Juts because vows are exchanged does not mean a marriage is realized. Even homosexuals exchange vows. Many other things point to a marriage never existing. Consult canon law for what you have problems with.
I don't have a problem with anything-except all this Corban.

I know these couples with canonical impediments. Should I report them?  If I don't, do the couple magically become married because the relevant information is being withheld from the Corban, er, Marriage Tribunal?

I know people who get annulments because they married because she was pregnant.  I know that they sometimes ask that question-in fact one of the marriages I'm thinking of is just such a case-except that it turned out to be a false pregnancy-: the priest asked this before the marriage, and they lied.  They are "living in sin" (because, according to your rules, their marriage isn't real) for over twenty years now.  Should I tell the parish priest so that he can excommunicate them?

What if a couple married in such a circumstance: can their marriage become valid with time, or is it doomed at the beginning?  What if they renewed their vows but thereby contracted a valid marriage unknown to them.  What then?

Lol You should go to CAF and ask such questions as there are resident priests and canon lawyers there. You will gladly receive the answers for your questions Smiley
Oh no I won't. They don't like answering questions, and I got banned for raising them. (see the linked thread above).




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« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2014, 03:01:01 PM »

Excuse me, I made an error.

Divorce is not allowed, even in cases of adultery.
don't worry, the error is on your ecclesiastical community, not you.
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« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2014, 03:03:08 PM »

Anytime a doctrine requires a lawyer to explain it, I am suspicious.  Wink
Indeed!

No matter how often it is explained that the Orthodox approach to divorce is not "one size fits all" or legalistic, but rather pastoral, nobody listens. It seems to require a paradigm shift.
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« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2014, 03:03:31 PM »

I wonder what percentage of the Vatican's marriages are "invalid."  Like what "ex cathedra" means, it seems it cannot tell us.

https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/kasper-interview-popefrancis-vatican

Quote
http://Kasper: That’s a real problem. I’ve spoken to the pope himself about this, and he said he believes that 50 percent of marriages are not valid. Marriage is a sacrament. A sacrament presupposes faith.
Seems like the Vatican is looking at 50% being valid vs invalid.  Perhaps they should include a coin toss in the ceremony that could assist in providing guidance on the validity of the marriage.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 03:04:34 PM by TheTrisagion » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2014, 03:08:53 PM »

I wonder what percentage of the Vatican's marriages are "invalid."  Like what "ex cathedra" means, it seems it cannot tell us.

https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/kasper-interview-popefrancis-vatican

Quote
http://Kasper: That’s a real problem. I’ve spoken to the pope himself about this, and he said he believes that 50 percent of marriages are not valid. Marriage is a sacrament. A sacrament presupposes faith.
Seems like the Vatican is looking at 50% being valid vs invalid.  Perhaps they should include a coin toss in the ceremony that could assist in providing guidance on the validity of the marriage.

The coin would apparently give them a better chance than the priest would.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 03:09:06 PM by Hamartolos » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2014, 03:17:56 PM »

Look The Fathers know best :

Justin Martyr

"In regard to chastity, [Jesus] has-this to say: 'If anyone look with lust at a woman, he has already before God committed adultery in his heart.' And, 'Whoever marries a woman who has been divorced from another husband, commits adultery.' According to our Teacher, just as they are sinners who contract a second marriage, even though it be in accord with human law, so also are they sinners who look with lustful desire at a woman. He repudiates not only one who actually commits adultery, but even one who wishes to do so; for not only our actions are manifest to God, but even our thoughts"
First Apology 15

Ambrose

"No one is permitted to know a woman other than his wife. The marital right is given you for this reason: lest you fall into the snare and sin with a strange woman. 'If you are bound to a wife do not seek a divorce'; for you are not permitted, while your wife lives, to marry another."
Abraham 1:7:59 [387 CE].


Jerome

"Do not tell me about the violence of the ravisher, about the persuasiveness of a mother, about the authority of a father, about the influence of relatives, about the intrigues and insolence of servants, or about household [financial] losses. So long as a husband lives, be he adulterer, be he sodomite, be he addicted to every kind of vice, if she left him on account of his crimes he is still her husband still and she may not take another"

Letters 55:3 [396 CE].

"Wherever there is fornication and a suspicion of fornication a wife is freely dismissed. Because it is always possible that someone may calumniate the innocent and, for the sake of a second joining in marriage, act in criminal fashion against the first, it is commanded that when the first wife is dismissed a second may not be taken while the first lives"
Commentaries on Matthew 3:19:9 [398 CE].


Augustine

"Neither can it rightly be held that a husband who dismisses his wife because of fornication and marries another does not commit adultery. For there is also adultery on the part of those who, after the repudiation of their former wives because of fornication, marry others. This adultery, nevertheless, is certainly less serious than that of men who dismiss their wives for reasons other than fornication and take other wives. Therefore, when we say: 'Whoever marries a woman dismissed by her husband for reason other than fornication commits adultery,' undoubtedly we speak the truth. But we do not thereby acquit of this crime the man who marries a woman who was dismissed because of fornication. We do not doubt in the least that both are adulterers. We do indeed pronounce him an adulterer who dismissed his wife for cause other than fornication and marries another, nor do we thereby defend from the taint of this sin the man who dismissed his wife because of fornication and marries another. We recognize that both are adulterers, though the sin of one is more grave than that of the other. No one is so unreasonable to say that a man who marries a woman whose husband has dismissed her because of fornication is not an adulterer, while maintaining that a man who marries a woman dismissed without the ground of fornication is an adulterer. Both of these men are guilty of adultery"

Adulterous Marriages 1:9:9 [419 CE].

"A woman begins to be the wife of no later husband unless she has ceased to be the wife of a former one. She will cease to be the wife of a former one, however, if that husband should die, not if he commit fornication. A spouse, therefore, is lawfully dismissed for cause of fornication; but the bond of chastity remains. That is why a man is guilty of adultery if he marries a woman who has been dismissed even for this very reason of fornication"


« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 03:19:32 PM by Wandile » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2014, 03:25:34 PM »

Ah.  What quote mine did you trawl?

Look The Fathers know best :

Justin Martyr

"In regard to chastity, [Jesus] has-this to say: 'If anyone look with lust at a woman, he has already before God committed adultery in his heart.' And, 'Whoever marries a woman who has been divorced from another husband, commits adultery.' According to our Teacher, just as they are sinners who contract a second marriage, even though it be in accord with human law, so also are they sinners who look with lustful desire at a woman. He repudiates not only one who actually commits adultery, but even one who wishes to do so; for not only our actions are manifest to God, but even our thoughts"
First Apology 15

Ambrose

"No one is permitted to know a woman other than his wife. The marital right is given you for this reason: lest you fall into the snare and sin with a strange woman. 'If you are bound to a wife do not seek a divorce'; for you are not permitted, while your wife lives, to marry another."
Abraham 1:7:59 [387 CE].


Jerome

"Do not tell me about the violence of the ravisher, about the persuasiveness of a mother, about the authority of a father, about the influence of relatives, about the intrigues and insolence of servants, or about household [financial] losses. So long as a husband lives, be he adulterer, be he sodomite, be he addicted to every kind of vice, if she left him on account of his crimes he is still her husband still and she may not take another"

Letters 55:3 [396 CE].

"Wherever there is fornication and a suspicion of fornication a wife is freely dismissed. Because it is always possible that someone may calumniate the innocent and, for the sake of a second joining in marriage, act in criminal fashion against the first, it is commanded that when the first wife is dismissed a second may not be taken while the first lives"
Commentaries on Matthew 3:19:9 [398 CE].


Augustine

"Neither can it rightly be held that a husband who dismisses his wife because of fornication and marries another does not commit adultery. For there is also adultery on the part of those who, after the repudiation of their former wives because of fornication, marry others. This adultery, nevertheless, is certainly less serious than that of men who dismiss their wives for reasons other than fornication and take other wives. Therefore, when we say: 'Whoever marries a woman dismissed by her husband for reason other than fornication commits adultery,' undoubtedly we speak the truth. But we do not thereby acquit of this crime the man who marries a woman who was dismissed because of fornication. We do not doubt in the least that both are adulterers. We do indeed pronounce him an adulterer who dismissed his wife for cause other than fornication and marries another, nor do we thereby defend from the taint of this sin the man who dismissed his wife because of fornication and marries another. We recognize that both are adulterers, though the sin of one is more grave than that of the other. No one is so unreasonable to say that a man who marries a woman whose husband has dismissed her because of fornication is not an adulterer, while maintaining that a man who marries a woman dismissed without the ground of fornication is an adulterer. Both of these men are guilty of adultery"

Adulterous Marriages 1:9:9 [419 CE].

"A woman begins to be the wife of no later husband unless she has ceased to be the wife of a former one. She will cease to be the wife of a former one, however, if that husband should die, not if he commit fornication. A spouse, therefore, is lawfully dismissed for cause of fornication; but the bond of chastity remains. That is why a man is guilty of adultery if he marries a woman who has been dismissed even for this very reason of fornication"
St. Justin doesn't help you.  Jerome's distaste of marriage-"even the blood of martyrdom does not remove the stain of marriage" harms your case, as does Augustine's interesting views.  Does your quote trawl catch St. Basil?
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« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2014, 03:31:56 PM »

Ah.  What quote mine did you trawl?

Look The Fathers know best :

Justin Martyr

"In regard to chastity, [Jesus] has-this to say: 'If anyone look with lust at a woman, he has already before God committed adultery in his heart.' And, 'Whoever marries a woman who has been divorced from another husband, commits adultery.' According to our Teacher, just as they are sinners who contract a second marriage, even though it be in accord with human law, so also are they sinners who look with lustful desire at a woman. He repudiates not only one who actually commits adultery, but even one who wishes to do so; for not only our actions are manifest to God, but even our thoughts"
First Apology 15

Ambrose

"No one is permitted to know a woman other than his wife. The marital right is given you for this reason: lest you fall into the snare and sin with a strange woman. 'If you are bound to a wife do not seek a divorce'; for you are not permitted, while your wife lives, to marry another."
Abraham 1:7:59 [387 CE].


Jerome

"Do not tell me about the violence of the ravisher, about the persuasiveness of a mother, about the authority of a father, about the influence of relatives, about the intrigues and insolence of servants, or about household [financial] losses. So long as a husband lives, be he adulterer, be he sodomite, be he addicted to every kind of vice, if she left him on account of his crimes he is still her husband still and she may not take another"

Letters 55:3 [396 CE].

"Wherever there is fornication and a suspicion of fornication a wife is freely dismissed. Because it is always possible that someone may calumniate the innocent and, for the sake of a second joining in marriage, act in criminal fashion against the first, it is commanded that when the first wife is dismissed a second may not be taken while the first lives"
Commentaries on Matthew 3:19:9 [398 CE].


Augustine

"Neither can it rightly be held that a husband who dismisses his wife because of fornication and marries another does not commit adultery. For there is also adultery on the part of those who, after the repudiation of their former wives because of fornication, marry others. This adultery, nevertheless, is certainly less serious than that of men who dismiss their wives for reasons other than fornication and take other wives. Therefore, when we say: 'Whoever marries a woman dismissed by her husband for reason other than fornication commits adultery,' undoubtedly we speak the truth. But we do not thereby acquit of this crime the man who marries a woman who was dismissed because of fornication. We do not doubt in the least that both are adulterers. We do indeed pronounce him an adulterer who dismissed his wife for cause other than fornication and marries another, nor do we thereby defend from the taint of this sin the man who dismissed his wife because of fornication and marries another. We recognize that both are adulterers, though the sin of one is more grave than that of the other. No one is so unreasonable to say that a man who marries a woman whose husband has dismissed her because of fornication is not an adulterer, while maintaining that a man who marries a woman dismissed without the ground of fornication is an adulterer. Both of these men are guilty of adultery"

Adulterous Marriages 1:9:9 [419 CE].

"A woman begins to be the wife of no later husband unless she has ceased to be the wife of a former one. She will cease to be the wife of a former one, however, if that husband should die, not if he commit fornication. A spouse, therefore, is lawfully dismissed for cause of fornication; but the bond of chastity remains. That is why a man is guilty of adultery if he marries a woman who has been dismissed even for this very reason of fornication"
St. Justin doesn't help you.
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching, that you can remarry, to bed.

 
Quote
Jerome's distaste of marriage-"even the blood of martyrdom does not remove the stain of marriage" harms your case

Nope it only confirms the indissolubility of marriage by using hyperbole. Perfect catholic teaching.

Quote
as does Augustine's interesting views.
LOL  getting desperate now aren't we? You know Augustine is one of the main sources of the Catholic view on divorce. Nevermind your contentless "rebuttal".
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« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2014, 03:34:26 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...
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« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2014, 03:36:05 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?
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« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2014, 03:37:04 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

How on earth did you get that from his comment?
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« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2014, 03:38:58 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

I can cherrypick quotes from Vatican II and Denzinger that make it seem that modern Catholicism's practice is put in to question also. Sedes do this often. I don't see what that proves about the 'truth' of either of those things.

Your methods of argumentation have become petty, Wandile. If something like marriage is the only thing you can use to put down Orthodoxy and elevate Roman Catholicism then you might as well just give up.
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« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2014, 03:39:25 PM »

St. Justin doesn't help you.
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching, that you can remarry, to bed.
only if you have been seduced to wash down that wedding cake of Corban with some Vatican Kool-Aid.

Quote
Jerome's distaste of marriage-"even the blood of martyrdom does not remove the stain of marriage" harms your case

Nope it only confirms the indissolubility of marriage by using hyperbole. Perfect catholic teaching.
so you admit that marriage being a "stain" is perfect Vatican teaching.  Btw, Jerome wasn't talking about the issue of divorce when he was expounded on his vile views of it.

Quote
as does Augustine's interesting views.
LOL  getting desperate now aren't we?

Getting? You're always desperate.
You know Augustine is one of the main sources of the Catholic view on divorce.
I know he gave the Vatican its view.  The Catholic view is another story.
Nevermind you content less "rebuttal".
Can you put more syntax into that sentence so it makes some intelligible sense?
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« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2014, 03:40:41 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

How on earth did you get that from his comment?
Vatican logic, where things do not say what they say, and things aren't what they are.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2014, 03:48:43 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

How on earth did you get that from his comment?
Vatican logic, where things do not say what they say, and things aren't what they are.

 Cheesy  Now all we need are some Canon Lawyers and a subcommittee to denounce my questioning of Wandile as heretical.
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« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2014, 03:55:58 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

I can cherrypick quotes from Vatican II and Denzinger that make it seem that modern Catholicism's practice is put in to question also. Sedes do this often. I don't see what that proves about the 'truth' of either of those things.

Your methods of argumentation have become petty, Wandile. If something like marriage is the only thing you can use to put down Orthodoxy and elevate Roman Catholicism then you might as well just give up.

The quotes are explicit, plain and simple. Put them into the paragraph context, book context or even historical context and the meanings will not change You may not divorce and may not remarry as long as your partner is alive.

But alas the Eastern Orthodox today ...
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 03:57:25 PM by Wandile » Logged

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« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2014, 03:58:37 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

I can cherrypick quotes from Vatican II and Denzinger that make it seem that modern Catholicism's practice is put in to question also. Sedes do this often. I don't see what that proves about the 'truth' of either of those things.

Your methods of argumentation have become petty, Wandile. If something like marriage is the only thing you can use to put down Orthodoxy and elevate Roman Catholicism then you might as well just give up.

The quotes are explicit, plain and simple. Put them into the paragraph context, book context or even historical context and the meanings will not change You may not divorce and may not remarry as long as your partner is alive.

But alas the Eastern Orthodox today ...

Why is it different then with adultery?  Does that devalidify the sacrament in a way that nothing else does?
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« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2014, 03:59:33 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

How on earth did you get that from his comment?

I assumed his attack on our church was, as past experience normally tells, a concession. I might be wrong on him admitting
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« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2014, 04:02:08 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

I can cherrypick quotes from Vatican II and Denzinger that make it seem that modern Catholicism's practice is put in to question also. Sedes do this often. I don't see what that proves about the 'truth' of either of those things.

Your methods of argumentation have become petty, Wandile. If something like marriage is the only thing you can use to put down Orthodoxy and elevate Roman Catholicism then you might as well just give up.

The quotes are explicit, plain and simple. Put them into the paragraph context, book context or even historical context and the meanings will not change You may not divorce and may not remarry as long as your partner is alive.

But alas the Eastern Orthodox today ...

Why is it different then with adultery?  Does that devalidify the sacrament in a way that nothing else does?

it is not


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"Do not tell me about the violence of the ravisher, about the persuasiveness of a mother, about the authority of a father, about the influence of relatives, about the intrigues and insolence of servants, or about household [financial] losses. So long as a husband lives, be he adulterer, be he sodomite, be he addicted to every kind of vice, if she left him on account of his crimes he is still her husband still and she may not take another
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« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2014, 04:02:59 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

I can cherrypick quotes from Vatican II and Denzinger that make it seem that modern Catholicism's practice is put in to question also. Sedes do this often. I don't see what that proves about the 'truth' of either of those things.

Your methods of argumentation have become petty, Wandile. If something like marriage is the only thing you can use to put down Orthodoxy and elevate Roman Catholicism then you might as well just give up.

The quotes are explicit, plain and simple. Put them into the paragraph context, book context or even historical context and the meanings will not change You may not divorce and may not remarry as long as your partner is alive.

But alas the Eastern Orthodox today ...

Why is it different then with adultery?  Does that devalidify the sacrament in a way that nothing else does?

it is not


Jerome

"Do not tell me about the violence of the ravisher, about the persuasiveness of a mother, about the authority of a father, about the influence of relatives, about the intrigues and insolence of servants, or about household [financial] losses. So long as a husband lives, be he adulterer, be he sodomite, be he addicted to every kind of vice, if she left him on account of his crimes he is still her husband still and she may not take another

Then why is divorce permitted?
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« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2014, 04:10:30 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

I can cherrypick quotes from Vatican II and Denzinger that make it seem that modern Catholicism's practice is put in to question also. Sedes do this often. I don't see what that proves about the 'truth' of either of those things.

Your methods of argumentation have become petty, Wandile. If something like marriage is the only thing you can use to put down Orthodoxy and elevate Roman Catholicism then you might as well just give up.

The quotes are explicit, plain and simple. Put them into the paragraph context, book context or even historical context and the meanings will not change You may not divorce and may not remarry as long as your partner is alive.

But alas the Eastern Orthodox today ...
Scenario: man cheats on his wife, who eventually leaves him and shacks up with another man.  The husband "settles down" with one of his mistress. They do not get a divorce because they are "good catholics."
Years later, the wife is declared dead (although identification is not sure).  The husband then goes to the Vatican's church with the mistress he has been living with and gets marry, good in full standing.  That's the Vatican way, and fully valid under its rules.

Eastern Orthodoxy, however, would not marry them, because the canons forbid marrying a couple which started out as an affair in a previous marriage.  The Antiochian Archdiocese a few years reiterated that, requiring priests who are marrying a couple in which remarriage is the case, to first determine if the couple before him is an affair they want to legitimize. The rules of Eastern Orthodox today (and always) don't allow that.

But you are welcome to your Corban cake with sanctimony filling and hypocrisy frosting.
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« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2014, 04:13:25 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

I can cherrypick quotes from Vatican II and Denzinger that make it seem that modern Catholicism's practice is put in to question also. Sedes do this often. I don't see what that proves about the 'truth' of either of those things.

Your methods of argumentation have become petty, Wandile. If something like marriage is the only thing you can use to put down Orthodoxy and elevate Roman Catholicism then you might as well just give up.

The quotes are explicit, plain and simple. Put them into the paragraph context, book context or even historical context and the meanings will not change You may not divorce and may not remarry as long as your partner is alive.

But alas the Eastern Orthodox today ...

Why is it different then with adultery?  Does that devalidify the sacrament in a way that nothing else does?

it is not


Jerome

"Do not tell me about the violence of the ravisher, about the persuasiveness of a mother, about the authority of a father, about the influence of relatives, about the intrigues and insolence of servants, or about household [financial] losses. So long as a husband lives, be he adulterer, be he sodomite, be he addicted to every kind of vice, if she left him on account of his crimes he is still her husband still and she may not take another
"be he sodomite" wonder what the original said, given that the word sodomite wasn't coined until nearly a milleium after St. Jerome.

Seems that your Jerome doesn't buy your "reasons for annullment."
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« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2014, 04:15:30 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

I can cherrypick quotes from Vatican II and Denzinger that make it seem that modern Catholicism's practice is put in to question also. Sedes do this often. I don't see what that proves about the 'truth' of either of those things.

Your methods of argumentation have become petty, Wandile. If something like marriage is the only thing you can use to put down Orthodoxy and elevate Roman Catholicism then you might as well just give up.

The quotes are explicit, plain and simple. Put them into the paragraph context, book context or even historical context and the meanings will not change You may not divorce and may not remarry as long as your partner is alive.

But alas the Eastern Orthodox today ...

Why is it different then with adultery?  Does that devalidify the sacrament in a way that nothing else does?
question is how the consumation is mightier than the priest's blessing in making it a sacrament.

btw, I've been told that if the marriage is consumated wearing a condom, that it doesn't become a sacrament. Wonder if that works if it is just the pill.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 04:17:11 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2014, 04:17:46 PM »

Quote
He actually does. He puts the heretical teaching of orthodoxy that you can remarry to bed.
I don't see any of them making allowances for annullments either...

Lol so you admit they call modern orthodoxy's practice into question?

I can cherrypick quotes from Vatican II and Denzinger that make it seem that modern Catholicism's practice is put in to question also. Sedes do this often. I don't see what that proves about the 'truth' of either of those things.

Your methods of argumentation have become petty, Wandile. If something like marriage is the only thing you can use to put down Orthodoxy and elevate Roman Catholicism then you might as well just give up.

The quotes are explicit, plain and simple. Put them into the paragraph context, book context or even historical context and the meanings will not change You may not divorce and may not remarry as long as your partner is alive.

But alas the Eastern Orthodox today ...

Quote from: Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
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« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2014, 04:25:11 PM »

The simple fact is that, on this point, the RCC has enshrined and explicated a misunderstanding of Christs teaching as well as that of St. Jerome.  We, as Orthodox, retain the teaching as expounded by Moses and fulfilled by the words of Christ, as well as alluded to by Paul.  Divorce is a sin but is tolerated in extreme cases to prevent greater sin.  Remarriage is a sin but is tolerated in certain cases to prevent greater sin.  What would Jesus do?  I think we know.  I think that the hierarchy, including the Pope, have realized the fruits of this error and are seeking to do what they can to correct it without losing too much face.  We, as Orthodox, should hold their hand and help them as they take this small step to turn away from an error which has infected their noble communion.   But alas, there are some who are "more Catholic than the Pope" and who say, our tradition right or wrong.  They will not be happy with us, either.  And there are some among us who delight in the blindness of our brethren and pass them by when they are wounded on the road.   These, too, shall have their reward.   Let us be good Samaritans to the Catholics in this plight and perhaps they will seek our counsel in others.   
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« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2014, 04:27:59 PM »

The simple fact is that, on this point, the RCC has enshrined and explicated a misunderstanding of Christs teaching as well as that of St. Jerome.  We, as Orthodox, retain the teaching as expounded by Moses and fulfilled by the words of Christ, as well as alluded to by Paul.  Divorce is a sin but is tolerated in extreme cases to prevent greater sin.  Remarriage is a sin but is tolerated in certain cases to prevent greater sin.  What would Jesus do?  I think we know.  I think that the hierarchy, including the Pope, have realized the fruits of this error and are seeking to do what they can to correct it without losing too much face.  We, as Orthodox, should hold their hand and help them as they take this small step to turn away from an error which has infected their noble communion.   But alas, there are some who are "more Catholic than the Pope" and who say, our tradition right or wrong.  They will not be happy with us, either.  And there are some among us who delight in the blindness of our brethren and pass them by when they are wounded on the road.   These, too, shall have their reward.   Let us be good Samaritans to the Catholics in this plight and perhaps they will seek our counsel in others.  
On some thread here (and elsewhere) when it was said that reunion was blocked because the Vatican's faithful had a problem with the Orthodox view of divorce and remarriage and on contraception, I pointed out that most of the Vatican's flock have already come over to the Orthodox understanding on these matters.
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« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2014, 04:30:18 PM »


btw, I've been told that if the marriage is consumated wearing a condom, that it doesn't become a sacrament. Wonder if that works if it is just the pill.

I find this hard to believe but imagine it would probably hold water in front of a tribunal.  My sister tried to use the fact that the priest who married them was nearing senility as a reason why the marriage was invalid.  I don't think it prevailed but the mere fact her priest said it could work is astounding.  But, it's all astounding to an Orthodox.
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« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2014, 04:32:35 PM »


btw, I've been told that if the marriage is consumated wearing a condom, that it doesn't become a sacrament. Wonder if that works if it is just the pill.

I find this hard to believe but imagine it would probably hold water in front of a tribunal.  My sister tried to use the fact that the priest who married them was nearing senility as a reason why the marriage was invalid.  I don't think it prevailed but the mere fact her priest said it could work is astounding.  But, it's all astounding to an Orthodox.
yes, the fact that they are searching for evidence for a conclusion already reached should give them pause.
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« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2014, 04:35:24 PM »


btw, I've been told that if the marriage is consumated wearing a condom, that it doesn't become a sacrament. Wonder if that works if it is just the pill.

I find this hard to believe but imagine it would probably hold water in front of a tribunal.  My sister tried to use the fact that the priest who married them was nearing senility as a reason why the marriage was invalid.  I don't think it prevailed but the mere fact her priest said it could work is astounding.  But, it's all astounding to an Orthodox.
yes, the fact that they are searching for evidence for a conclusion already reached should give them pause.

Exactly.  In fact, I think that's the entire basis for the annulment industry the RCC has going.
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« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2014, 04:38:13 PM »

Excuse me, I made an error.

Divorce is not allowed, even in cases of adultery.

You made two.  One, divorce is not a sin, it is remarriage without a declaration of nullify that is the sin.  Two, divorce/separation is not only allowed but in some cases necessary and encouraged.
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« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2014, 06:19:07 PM »

Excuse me, I made an error.

Divorce is not allowed, even in cases of adultery.

You made two.  One, divorce is not a sin, it is remarriage without a declaration of nullify that is the sin.  Two, divorce/separation is not only allowed but in some cases necessary and encouraged.

As long as divorce in the proper sense does not do away with the sacrament as according to our theology, nothing can undo a sacramental marriage bar death. Hence the phraseology being employed I.e. Separate or to put away. Even when such terms are used among the fathers, its is still strongly taught that the sacrament exists and thus remarriage is not permitted lest one commits adultery.
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« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2014, 08:42:18 PM »

yes, having looked at the questions etc. they ask for an annulment...

Are those available online somewhere?

Quote
...the question sticks in my mind why don't they ask these questions before they marry them, and apply the scrutiny of whether it is a valid marriage then?

Maybe that would get in the way of the NFP training.  Can't have them using condoms now.  Tongue

Seriously, though, what on earth happens during the mandatory pre-marital counseling that still leaves open the possibility that two people cannot contract a valid marriage?  

Annulments are sound theology on paper, but paper never gets married.  When you see it play out in real life, it's quite a ridiculous fiction.  And it's not even infallible, so even when you're sure, you can never really be sure.    

They do ask these questions, or at least they are supposed to.  In my own case, since my wife was Presbyterian and we were young(21/22) the sessions with the priest were pretty intense.  However, not everybody does their job I suppose.

Even with good counseling, do not forget sometimes people know how to answer the questions with no intention of living in marriage as God requires.  Lying and deception are an issue.  I have a good friend who married a girl who along with her parents hid her serious mental illness.
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« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2014, 08:54:17 PM »

Divorce is certainly permitted in certain circumstances, according to Christ Himself:

Matthew 19:9
And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.
I've seen that some Vatican approved translations have taken to "translating" it as "invalid marriage" or some such nonsense.
That would be: "unless the marriage is unlawful" in the RNAB, which is one of the meanings of porneia.
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« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2014, 09:48:30 PM »

Divorce is certainly permitted in certain circumstances, according to Christ Himself:

Matthew 19:9
And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.
I've seen that some Vatican approved translations have taken to "translating" it as "invalid marriage" or some such nonsense.
That would be: "unless the marriage is unlawful" in the RNAB, which is one of the meanings of porneia.

Two examples, one in my family and the other a very close friend:
example one, My neice was married sacramentally for some years had on child and because of mental anquish had to divorce her husband.  My new nephew also once married two children also divorced met my neice an got married by a female minister on a golf course later was able to get an annulment from the church.  Both parties spouses are still living, both were in a sacramental marriage and divorced and then annulled.
example two, My neighbor had no children was sacramentally married for a time, wife divorced him for another man, he then met another woman with two kids, married in a Lutheran church, and later blessed by the Catholic church.

Like is said before divorce/annulment samie same.... 
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« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2014, 10:16:40 PM »

Wandile, you basically have no room to talk, because at Florence, when the issue of divorce was brought up, the Greeks explained that this was an ancient practice derived from the canons of the fathers, and the Latins contented themselves with this explanation, not pressing this issue any further. This is why the issue of divorce was not brought up at all in the official documents of Florence, and the union was considered by the Latins to have been made, even though the Greeks had not been asked to change the practice of divorce and remarriage (which you arrogantly, stupidly and ignorantly have called heretical).
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« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2014, 10:51:47 PM »

My question is: is there anywhere in Holy Tradition where the Sacrament of Marriage is understood as being performed by the couple, not the priest? Because if not (and I strongly suspect not), then the basis for declaring marriages invalid falls away in almost all cases.
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« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2014, 11:05:26 PM »

My question is: is there anywhere in Holy Tradition where the Sacrament of Marriage is understood as being performed by the couple, not the priest? Because if not (and I strongly suspect not), then the basis for declaring marriages invalid falls away in almost all cases.

Even if such an example could be found, I think it still involves a very questionable understanding of sacraments. What if a man did not understand that priesthood is an eternal ontological mark upon the soul at the time of ordination or perhaps had doubts as to whether he should be a priest? Would his ordination then be invalid and all sacraments performed by him save baptism null and void? What if a man did not fully understand baptism at the time of his baptism? Could the baptism be annulled?
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« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2014, 11:23:34 PM »

The way I interpret the Orthodox view vs the Catholic view is that both see divorce as a sin but the Orthodox refuse to make it an almost unforgiveable one like the Catholic church does.  Technically the Catholic Church does not annul marriages they declare a marriage null which is not the same thing.  It is just that the tribunal process has become a rubber stamp in recent years.  But it wasn't long ago that even if your spouse beat you or cheated on you you were basically excommunicated if you divorced them and married someone else.  Their absolutism having backed them into a corner the tribunal system (which is granted infallibility through the Pope) has largely become a blank check declaring pretty much any reason a valid reason to declare a marriage having never existed.

I know this is likely an oversimplification but it boils it down to the basics I hope.
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« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2014, 11:51:54 PM »

Divorce is certainly permitted in certain circumstances, according to Christ Himself:

Matthew 19:9
And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.
I've seen that some Vatican approved translations have taken to "translating" it as "invalid marriage" or some such nonsense.
That would be: "unless the marriage is unlawful" in the RNAB, which is one of the meanings of porneia.
Not according to Bauer and TDNT, it's not.
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« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2014, 12:06:18 AM »

I honestly find the Latin practice of annulment to be incredibly offensive and repugnant most of the time. "Oh, that wasn't ever a real marriage, it was a putative marriage for all of those years because of X."

And the idea that the sacrament of marriage ends with one partner's death (allowing the surviving partner to enter into a new one, of course) is something I find pretty unsatisfying.
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« Reply #86 on: May 22, 2014, 02:25:18 AM »

Wandile, you basically have no room to talk, because at Florence, when the issue of divorce was brought up, the Greeks explained that this was an ancient practice derived from the canons of the fathers, and the Latins contented themselves with this explanation, not pressing this issue any further. This is why the issue of divorce was not brought up at all in the official documents of Florence, and the union was considered by the Latins to have been made, even though the Greeks had not been asked to change the practice of divorce and remarriage (which you arrogantly, stupidly and ignorantly have called heretical).

Arrogantly and stupidly? I think not

The Council of Trent made a dogmatic decision on this question. This took place in Session XXIV, canon v:

"If anyone shall say that the bond of matrimony can be dissolved for the cause of heresy, or of injury due to cohabitation, or of wilful desertion; let him be anathema"

 and in canon vii:

"If anyone shall say that the Church has erred in having taught, and in teaching that, according to the teaching of the Gospel and the Apostles, the bond of matrimony cannot be dissolved, and that neither party — not even the innocent, who has given no cause by adultery — can contract another marriage while the other lives, and that he, or she, commits adultery who puts away an adulterous wife, or husband, and marries another; let him be anathema"

 The formula prescribed by Urban VIII for easterners contains the following :

"Also, that the bond of the Sacrament of Matrimony is indissoluble; and that, although a separation tori et cohabitationis can be made between the parties, for adultery, heresy, or other causes, yet it is not lawful for them to contract another marriage
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 02:34:06 AM by Wandile » Logged

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« Reply #87 on: May 22, 2014, 02:43:07 AM »

Wandile, you basically have no room to talk, because at Florence, when the issue of divorce was brought up, the Greeks explained that this was an ancient practice derived from the canons of the fathers, and the Latins contented themselves with this explanation, not pressing this issue any further. This is why the issue of divorce was not brought up at all in the official documents of Florence, and the union was considered by the Latins to have been made, even though the Greeks had not been asked to change the practice of divorce and remarriage (which you arrogantly, stupidly and ignorantly have called heretical).

Arrogantly and stupidly? I think not

The Council of Trent made a dogmatic decision on this question. This took place in Session XXIV, canon v:

"If anyone shall say that the bond of matrimony can be dissolved for the cause of heresy, or of injury due to cohabitation, or of wilful desertion; let him be anathema"

 and in canon vii:

"If anyone shall say that the Church has erred in having taught, and in teaching that, according to the teaching of the Gospel and the Apostles, the bond of matrimony cannot be dissolved, and that neither party — not even the innocent, who has given no cause by adultery — can contract another marriage while the other lives, and that he, or she, commits adultery who puts away an adulterous wife, or husband, and marries another; let him be anathema"

 The formula prescribed by Urban VIII for easterners contains the following :

"Also, that the bond of the Sacrament of Matrimony is indissoluble; and that, although a separation tori et cohabitationis can be made between the parties, for adultery, heresy, or other causes, yet it is not lawful for them to contract another marriage

So it is your contention that the Pope at Florence willingly entered into communion with heretics. Of course, you are a believer in the erroneous doctrine of magisterial positivism, so I can see why any contradictions between supposedly infallible Florence and supposedly infallible Trent would not bother you, as all of theology is for you a moving target.
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« Reply #88 on: May 22, 2014, 02:48:34 AM »

Well, apparently 50 percent of marriages are invalid according to Pope Francis.  So, there's that.   Sad
I guess that's why there are 50,000 annulments given out in the US alone per year, as compared to 900 in one year WORLDWIDE back before Vatican II.  
As for people saying you gotta pay for annulments.  I didn't have to pay anything for mine.
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« Reply #89 on: May 22, 2014, 02:51:41 AM »

Wandile, you basically have no room to talk, because at Florence, when the issue of divorce was brought up, the Greeks explained that this was an ancient practice derived from the canons of the fathers, and the Latins contented themselves with this explanation, not pressing this issue any further. This is why the issue of divorce was not brought up at all in the official documents of Florence, and the union was considered by the Latins to have been made, even though the Greeks had not been asked to change the practice of divorce and remarriage (which you arrogantly, stupidly and ignorantly have called heretical).

Arrogantly and stupidly? I think not

The Council of Trent made a dogmatic decision on this question. This took place in Session XXIV, canon v:

"If anyone shall say that the bond of matrimony can be dissolved for the cause of heresy, or of injury due to cohabitation, or of wilful desertion; let him be anathema"

 and in canon vii:

"If anyone shall say that the Church has erred in having taught, and in teaching that, according to the teaching of the Gospel and the Apostles, the bond of matrimony cannot be dissolved, and that neither party — not even the innocent, who has given no cause by adultery — can contract another marriage while the other lives, and that he, or she, commits adultery who puts away an adulterous wife, or husband, and marries another; let him be anathema"

 The formula prescribed by Urban VIII for easterners contains the following :

"Also, that the bond of the Sacrament of Matrimony is indissoluble; and that, although a separation tori et cohabitationis can be made between the parties, for adultery, heresy, or other causes, yet it is not lawful for them to contract another marriage

So it is your contention that the Pope at Florence willingly entered into communion with heretics. Of course, you are a believer in the erroneous doctrine of magisterial positivism, so I can see why any contradictions between supposedly infallible Florence and supposedly infallible Trent would not bother you, as all of theology is for you a moving target.

What a stupid comment. There is no contradiction. Rather, before Florence the latins already held the theology expressed at Trent. They didn't change at Florence. All they did was let it go as it really didn't seem to be a deal breaker for them. Such issued are easily fixed over time. Issues like papal supremacy and filioque however, are another story.

Trust that even after the union, the Latins would have brought up marriage once the dust has settled for Thomistic and Augustinian theology had taken sway on the catholic thought. Reunion was the councils primary objective. They wanted it as soon as possible but trust that the Latins would never let the marriage issue go. In fact the decree we speak of (which was made a mere century after Florence)  was already softened for the Greeks so as to not be too offensive but yet still speak truth.  
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 03:24:07 AM by Wandile » Logged

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