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Author Topic: La Virgin de Guadalupe  (Read 511 times) Average Rating: 0
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Velsigne
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« on: April 05, 2013, 09:06:18 AM »

I couldn't find an existing thread for this.  From the thread on pagan elements in Roman Catholic churches, I began wondering again about this aspect of Marian devotion.  

How does / or would the Orthodox Church view the Virgin de Guadalupe and her images?  Is is an acceptable portrayal of the Theotokos that can be used as an icon, or is it not the Theotokos at all?  

Is the image really Tonantzin, a pagan mother-goddess, dressed up in a bit of syncretism to appease Roman Catholic conquistadores?  Or is it an acceptable Christianizing of a pagan culture?  

edit: remove image


« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 09:21:53 AM by Velsigne » Logged
LBK
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2013, 09:15:51 AM »

Velsigne, there are several threads on this topic, here are some to get you started:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39397.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45909.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22688.0.html

The short answer as to whether this image can be venerated as an Orthodox icon, the short answer is no. This image, and the story of its origins are outside of Orthodox tradition.
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Velsigne
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2013, 09:21:00 AM »

Thanks LBK.  That's what I figured. 

Looks like I need practice with the search engine here too!  I put in Virgen and Guadalupe and got one giant post that mentioned it but was not the main topic.  Maybe I spelled 'Virgin' wrong like in the title of this thread.

Thanks again.  I will read those threads after work.
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JoeS2
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2013, 10:09:20 AM »

I couldn't find an existing thread for this.  From the thread on pagan elements in Roman Catholic churches, I began wondering again about this aspect of Marian devotion.  

How does / or would the Orthodox Church view the Virgin de Guadalupe and her images?  Is is an acceptable portrayal of the Theotokos that can be used as an icon, or is it not the Theotokos at all?  

Is the image really Tonantzin, a pagan mother-goddess, dressed up in a bit of syncretism to appease Roman Catholic conquistadores?  Or is it an acceptable Christianizing of a pagan culture?  

edit: remove image




We have the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in our Icon corner....
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J Michael
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2013, 10:31:05 AM »

I couldn't find an existing thread for this.  From the thread on pagan elements in Roman Catholic churches, I began wondering again about this aspect of Marian devotion.  

How does / or would the Orthodox Church view the Virgin de Guadalupe and her images?  Is is an acceptable portrayal of the Theotokos that can be used as an icon, or is it not the Theotokos at all?  

Is the image really Tonantzin, a pagan mother-goddess, dressed up in a bit of syncretism to appease Roman Catholic conquistadores?  Or is it an acceptable Christianizing of a pagan culture?  

edit: remove image




We have the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in our Icon corner....

Ahh....you can take the man out of the Catholic Church but........ Wink
(Just pulling you leg, JoeS2!)
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JoeS2
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2013, 11:12:30 AM »

I couldn't find an existing thread for this.  From the thread on pagan elements in Roman Catholic churches, I began wondering again about this aspect of Marian devotion.  

How does / or would the Orthodox Church view the Virgin de Guadalupe and her images?  Is is an acceptable portrayal of the Theotokos that can be used as an icon, or is it not the Theotokos at all?  

Is the image really Tonantzin, a pagan mother-goddess, dressed up in a bit of syncretism to appease Roman Catholic conquistadores?  Or is it an acceptable Christianizing of a pagan culture?  

edit: remove image




We have the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in our Icon corner....

Ahh....you can take the man out of the Catholic Church but........ Wink
(Just pulling you leg, JoeS2!)
Yes, you can take the man out of the Roman Catholic church but you cant take the Catholic out of the man.....ha ha ha
My wife is from Mexico, thus the Icon...
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Jason.Wike
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2013, 01:41:52 PM »

I couldn't find an existing thread for this.  From the thread on pagan elements in Roman Catholic churches, I began wondering again about this aspect of Marian devotion.  

How does / or would the Orthodox Church view the Virgin de Guadalupe and her images?  Is is an acceptable portrayal of the Theotokos that can be used as an icon, or is it not the Theotokos at all?  

Is the image really Tonantzin, a pagan mother-goddess, dressed up in a bit of syncretism to appease Roman Catholic conquistadores?  Or is it an acceptable Christianizing of a pagan culture?  

edit: remove image


There are images of Tonantzin that look like La Virgin de Guadalupe, but it is because they have made them to look like her after the fact, not the other way around. The pre-Christian images of Tonantzin don't look like La Virgin at all. It is a popular neo-pagan practise to 're-paganize' prayers, images and festivals for which there is actually no evidence were ever pagan. Its how they fill in for the fact that for many of them, there is no actual substantial record of the pre-Christian religion of the culture they are interested in.

Ironically, there is (or was) a huge outcry in neo-paganism against 'cultural misappropriation' and taking images and ideas from Native Americans or other 'native' religions.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 01:42:13 PM by Jason.Wike » Logged
Velsigne
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2013, 12:50:40 AM »

I couldn't find an existing thread for this.  From the thread on pagan elements in Roman Catholic churches, I began wondering again about this aspect of Marian devotion.  

How does / or would the Orthodox Church view the Virgin de Guadalupe and her images?  Is is an acceptable portrayal of the Theotokos that can be used as an icon, or is it not the Theotokos at all?  

Is the image really Tonantzin, a pagan mother-goddess, dressed up in a bit of syncretism to appease Roman Catholic conquistadores?  Or is it an acceptable Christianizing of a pagan culture?  

edit: remove image


There are images of Tonantzin that look like La Virgin de Guadalupe, but it is because they have made them to look like her after the fact, not the other way around. The pre-Christian images of Tonantzin don't look like La Virgin at all. It is a popular neo-pagan practise to 're-paganize' prayers, images and festivals for which there is actually no evidence were ever pagan. Its how they fill in for the fact that for many of them, there is no actual substantial record of the pre-Christian religion of the culture they are interested in.

Ironically, there is (or was) a huge outcry in neo-paganism against 'cultural misappropriation' and taking images and ideas from Native Americans or other 'native' religions.

That's funny.  I've noticed that there are attempts to glorify the old pagan ways, and overlook how horribly brutal rituals and culture could be.   I suppose the world is still just as brutal, only in different ways for some, but some people still practice blood rituals. 

I have a good friend who grew up in la selva in the general region around Puebla.  Everyone spoke nahuatl, but no one worshiped Aztecan gods or goddesses.  They weren't Catholic either. 

It's kind of interesting to look at it though, because it reminds me of what kind of world Christ came for.  And sometimes we can see good things in pagan cultures, like St. Innocent, iirc, found the positives in Native cultures up north. 
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Velsigne
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2013, 12:51:54 AM »

Velsigne, there are several threads on this topic, here are some to get you started:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39397.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45909.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22688.0.html

The short answer as to whether this image can be venerated as an Orthodox icon, the short answer is no. This image, and the story of its origins are outside of Orthodox tradition.

Thanks for linking those.  I read through them.  A lot of interesting comments. 
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