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Author Topic: The Church & Marijuana  (Read 2249 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 04, 2013, 08:16:03 PM »

I know that we already have one thread about marijuana somewhere on this board, but this topic is a bit different. All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church? If it were not illegal, would the Church have a problem with people smoking it? I mean, we allow people to consume alcohol and smoke tobacco, so why not marijuana? Marijuana is the least harmful out of the bad habits, and unlike alcohol, will not cause you to become angry or violent. The only objection I could see against marijuana is that it is illegal, and the Bible tells us to respect the civil authorities, therefore we shouldn't smoke it. But what about marijuana in and of itself, legal aspect aside, what's wrong with it from the Church's standpoint?
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2013, 08:22:13 PM »

I imagine it would fall under the same general guidelines regarding alcohol.
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2013, 08:22:50 PM »

There has recently been a thread in Faith Issues. Nothing reasonable came from it.
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2013, 08:30:50 PM »

The main difference between alcohol and marijuana is that the former is often drunk in moderation purely for the taste whereas marijuana is generally used as an intoxicant outside of a medical context. The use of alcohol as an intoxicant, or drunkenness at any rate, is frowned upon by the Church, so I would expect the same thing goes against the use of marijuana for things other than pain relief and whatnot.
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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2013, 08:41:33 PM »

The use of alcohol as an intoxicant, or drunkenness at any rate, is frowned upon by the Church,

If you ignore the wedding in Cana...
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2013, 09:08:07 PM »

To me, marijuana is a political non-issue. I don't really care if people smoke it or not.
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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2013, 10:23:08 PM »

It is kosher....

But I will tell you... That old commercial in the late 80's early 90's of the guys smoking in the upstairs attic saying "marijuana never hurt anybody".   They are in their 30's....

Suddenly the mom calls up the stairs... LOL.....
So true

The way I see it (not an Orthodox take), is God never created us to "smoke anything".  Nothing in his creation smokes either.  Christ did not smoke.

However, we do eat and drink.   Christ at Cana...   Drink is certainly different than smoking.
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 10:46:12 PM »

The way I see it (not an Orthodox take), is God never created us to "smoke anything".  Nothing in his creation smokes either.  Christ did not smoke.

Neither to fly, swim underwater, move with speed over 30 km/h, use electricity...
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2013, 11:23:31 PM »

is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church?

America says yes  Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2013, 12:52:31 AM »

I mean, we allow people to consume alcohol and smoke tobacco, so why not marijuana? Marijuana is the least harmful out of the bad habits, and unlike alcohol, will not cause you to become angry or violent.

Smoking tobacco is a sin, so why wouldn't smoking marijuana be?  Our Lord drank wine, but when did the Lord or any of the saints smoke anything or recommend the smoking of anything? 

The Church allows alcohol in moderation, but drunkenness is sinful and never permitted.  One can have a beer or glass of wine without feeling much different at all, and certainly without any impairments which would characterize "drunkenness".  With marijuana, a single puff or a single joint could easily get you "stoned" depending on the quality/kind. 

from The Life of St Parthenius of Chios
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Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain called cigarettes “foul stinking grass,” and Saint Parthenius counseled the pilgrims not to smoke. Since it harms the body, which is “the temple of God,” he called cigarettes, and tobacco in general, “incense of the devil.” The Saint was attempting to convince people that smoking is not only ruinous and harmful to the body but also unfitting behavior for the faithful. This impropriety is especially disgraceful for a priest. When Saint Parthenius would meet a priest who smoked and tried to hide it, he would say, “I know what kind of incense you cense with! It is better to smell incense alone or cigarettes alone, because incense and cigarettes together do not make a pleasant odor!” What the Saint meant was that smoking is not suitable for the clergy and that if a clergyman smoked it would have been better for him to remain a layman.
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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2013, 02:55:10 AM »

I think it would be a matter of Christian liberty. But I would urge great caution with it. Marijuana affects each person differently. For some people it merely relaxes them and helps them focus. For others it causes extreme anxiety and can even produce hallucinations. Of course, people also respond differently to alcohol too. However, most people will not be radically effected after one or two drinks of alcohol, whereas inhaling even one or two hits from powerful marijuana can drastically alter one's consciousness.

Now, I'd like to offer my own perspective about obeying the civil law in regard to such matters. My opinion is that if the law condemns that which God has called "good," then I don't think we are under any moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law. God created everything good, and thus all created things have a function and a purpose. So, for example, if it were illegal to eat fruit, then I would feel no inclination to obey such a law because that law would essentially be calling something good "evil." But this is only my opinion, and the Church may teach something different. But I basically think there are many reasons not to use marijuana, but obedience to the law is not one of them in my view.


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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2013, 04:31:53 AM »

My opinion is that if the law condemns that which God has called "good," then I don't think we are under any moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law. God created everything good

God created a whole variety of plants and fungi which range in mind-altering effect from mild to deadly. Would you regard legal restrictions or prohibitions on the ingestion or otherwise consumption of these things outside of a "moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law"?
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2013, 04:58:42 AM »

My opinion is that if the law condemns that which God has called "good," then I don't think we are under any moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law. God created everything good

God created a whole variety of plants and fungi which range in mind-altering effect from mild to deadly. Would you regard legal restrictions or prohibitions on the ingestion or otherwise consumption of these things outside of a "moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law"?


I'm not sure. I tend to think that laws against plants are stupid.


Selam
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2013, 05:00:14 AM »

My opinion is that if the law condemns that which God has called "good," then I don't think we are under any moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law. God created everything good

God created a whole variety of plants and fungi which range in mind-altering effect from mild to deadly. Would you regard legal restrictions or prohibitions on the ingestion or otherwise consumption of these things outside of a "moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law"?


I'm not sure. I tend to think that laws against plants are stupid.


Selam

So you think plants are sacrosanct?  Huh Huh
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2013, 05:49:41 AM »

My opinion is that if the law condemns that which God has called "good," then I don't think we are under any moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law. God created everything good

God created a whole variety of plants and fungi which range in mind-altering effect from mild to deadly. Would you regard legal restrictions or prohibitions on the ingestion or otherwise consumption of these things outside of a "moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law"?


I'm not sure. I tend to think that laws against plants are stupid.


Selam

So you think plants are sacrosanct?  Huh Huh


I think that all of creation is inherently good, albeit affected by the fall.


Selam
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2013, 05:57:52 AM »

My opinion is that if the law condemns that which God has called "good," then I don't think we are under any moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law. God created everything good

God created a whole variety of plants and fungi which range in mind-altering effect from mild to deadly. Would you regard legal restrictions or prohibitions on the ingestion or otherwise consumption of these things outside of a "moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law"?


I'm not sure. I tend to think that laws against plants are stupid.


Selam

So you think plants are sacrosanct?  Huh Huh


I think that all of creation is inherently good, albeit affected by the fall.


Selam

Still doesn't explain why these things are poisonous and/or mind-affecting, many with laws regulating or prohibiting their use. Are we not expected to treat our bodies like temples? You can't have it both ways, Gebre.
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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2013, 06:08:59 AM »

IMO sound policy would be something like this:  avoid use during fasts, do not use too strong variants and generally avoid daily or even weekly use, do not support otherwise criminal activity, do not lend it to the underaged  and do not use around children and you'll be fine.
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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2013, 06:14:25 AM »

My opinion is that if the law condemns that which God has called "good," then I don't think we are under any moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law. God created everything good

God created a whole variety of plants and fungi which range in mind-altering effect from mild to deadly. Would you regard legal restrictions or prohibitions on the ingestion or otherwise consumption of these things outside of a "moral or Christian obligation to obey such a law"?


I'm not sure. I tend to think that laws against plants are stupid.


Selam

So you think plants are sacrosanct?  Huh Huh


I think that all of creation is inherently good, albeit affected by the fall.


Selam

Still doesn't explain why these things are poisonous and/or mind-affecting, many with laws regulating or prohibiting their use. Are we not expected to treat our bodies like temples? You can't have it both ways, Gebre.

To oppose the criminalization of these plants does not mean that I endorse their use. That's why I emphasized that marijuana use is not necessarily innocuous and can be quite dangerous for some people. We absolutely should treat our bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit. But people poison themselves with food every day, and yet I wouldn't outlaw certain foods. Of course, some politicians are trying to do just that, but I don't think that's a good idea. I would not outlaw any plants, but I would also urge education about their positive and negative qualities so that people would use them safely and properly. If somebody needs marijuana for its medicinal properties but lives in a state where marijuana is illegal, I see nothing sinful about them breaking the law in order to use a plant that God created for a reason. Just my thoughts.


Selam
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2013, 06:49:47 AM »

The way I see it (not an Orthodox take), is God never created us to "smoke anything".  Nothing in his creation smokes either.  Christ did not smoke.

Neither to fly, swim underwater, move with speed over 30 km/h, use electricity...

Just eat the pot, don't smoke it
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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2013, 07:02:39 AM »



The way I see it (not an Orthodox take), is God never created us to "smoke anything".  Nothing in his creation smokes either.  Christ did not smoke.




 Wink



Selam

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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2013, 08:24:24 AM »

A couple of thoughts...

If our minds were rightly ordered to God I doubt we would want something that is mind-altering.

I agree that what God created was good and remains good.  That being said, the industrial uses of cannabis are much more valuable to humanity than recreational uses.  And don't forget that much of the recreational potential is a product of human interference.  
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2013, 08:51:39 AM »

I know that we already have one thread about marijuana somewhere on this board, but this topic is a bit different. All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church? If it were not illegal, would the Church have a problem with people smoking it? I mean, we allow people to consume alcohol and smoke tobacco, so why not marijuana? Marijuana is the least harmful out of the bad habits, and unlike alcohol, will not cause you to become angry or violent. The only objection I could see against marijuana is that it is illegal, and the Bible tells us to respect the civil authorities, therefore we shouldn't smoke it. But what about marijuana in and of itself, legal aspect aside, what's wrong with it from the Church's standpoint?

Are you planning to smoke pot?
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2013, 09:38:34 AM »

Probably OT, but can someone explain to me why we are doing our best to outlaw cigarette smoking and allow marijuana smoking?
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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2013, 09:40:34 AM »

Smoking tobacco is a sin

That would be news to the Greeks.
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2013, 12:44:46 PM »

Smoking tobacco is a sin? I'm not that religiously inclined to believe that certain things are sinful.
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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2013, 02:05:42 PM »

and helps them focus

Never met such person.

Just eat the pot, don't smoke it

Same effects but I like the very act of smoking.

to the OP:

"Is willingly damaging your body a sin?"

Yes.

"Is regular smoking (marihuana or tobacco - doesn't matter) harminging your body?"

Yes.

"Is occasional smoking (marihuana or tobacco - doesn't matter) harming your dody?"

I do not think so.

"Is experience posite effect of light intoxcation (with alcohol or tobacco - doesn't matter) sinful?"

It is not.

"Is getting heavily intoxicated (with alcohol or tobacco - doesn't matter) sinful?"

Yes...
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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2013, 03:36:35 PM »

Probably OT, but can someone explain to me why we are doing our best to outlaw cigarette smoking and allow marijuana smoking?

There are, afaik, no known health benefits to smoking tobacco.  There are known health benefits, mainly in the form of pain relief, from what I understand, to smoking or ingesting marijuana.  I include "ingesting" because, perhaps incorrectly, I'm thinking that the active ingredient in pot, THC, should be effective for pain relief whether smoked or eaten or taken in a capsule or whatever.

Smoking too much of *anything* for too long a time, in those susceptible to it, can certainly lead to lung cancer or other respiratory ailments.  I think that might also include inhaling too much incense smoke  Grin, but maybe not if done in the right context   Wink.

Also, our increasingly secular society likes, as have virtually all societies/cultures throughout history, to use intoxicants for a whole variety of reasons, a main one being....to get intoxicated.

I eagerly await the day that marijuana use for medical purposes is legalized here in Maryland, not for me, but for my wife.
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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2013, 03:47:07 PM »

here we go.
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« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2013, 03:57:17 PM »

here we go.

Where we go?  (Perhaps to a different forum??)
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« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2013, 04:00:13 PM »

here we go.

Here I go again on my own
Going down the only road I've ever known
Like a drifter I was born to walk alone
And I've made up my mind
I ain't wasting no more time
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« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2013, 04:03:13 PM »

here we go.

Where we go?  (Perhaps to a different forum??)
back down the spiral of insanity. 
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« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2013, 04:17:01 PM »

here we go.

Where we go?  (Perhaps to a different forum??)
back down the spiral of insanity. 

If that's what you want.....
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« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2013, 04:23:25 PM »

here we go.

Where we go?  (Perhaps to a different forum??)
back down the spiral of insanity. 

If that's what you want.....
trust me, no it's not what I want.
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« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2013, 04:29:50 PM »

here we go.

Where we go?  (Perhaps to a different forum??)
back down the spiral of insanity. 

If that's what you want.....
trust me, no it's not what I want.

Then perhaps it's not inevitable that we go "back down the spiral of insanity".  Not quite sure where that is, but...maybe we won't find out, after all. 
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« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2013, 10:55:24 PM »

The way I see it (not an Orthodox take), is God never created us to "smoke anything".  Nothing in his creation smokes either.  Christ did not smoke.

Neither to fly, swim underwater, move with speed over 30 km/h, use electricity...

You make a good point... But Christ went under water in baptism, flight wasn't invented then, and electricity wasn't "harnessed" then....

People have smoked in the B.C. times, he just never did it.  I don't remember any of the apostles being recorded as smoking nor 2nd century Christians (please correct if wrong, I just can't remember).
I don't believe he intended for us to smoke.  Drink, I do believe that's okay in moderation.  As the Cana example, and also proof that some red wine is good for your body.
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« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2013, 10:58:29 PM »



The way I see it (not an Orthodox take), is God never created us to "smoke anything".  Nothing in his creation smokes either.  Christ did not smoke.




 Wink



Selam



He's gonna have a BIG line of people outside of that church.  LOL
If that was reefer, EO attendance worldwide would quintuple.
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« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2013, 11:00:38 PM »

The way I see it (not an Orthodox take), is God never created us to "smoke anything".  Nothing in his creation smokes either.  Christ did not smoke.

Neither to fly, swim underwater, move with speed over 30 km/h, use electricity...

Just eat the pot, don't smoke it

I agree, as all plant life is Kosher / clean.  God said so himself.

I don't personally eat it, but I would not disagree with somebody doing it.
Smoking is different, as you are taking something with "high" effects (stoned) into your lungs.  It does actually cause damage.
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« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2013, 11:08:25 PM »

The way I see it (not an Orthodox take), is God never created us to "smoke anything".  Nothing in his creation smokes either.  Christ did not smoke.

Neither to fly, swim underwater, move with speed over 30 km/h, use electricity...

Just eat the pot, don't smoke it

I agree, as all plant life is Kosher / clean.  God said so himself.

I don't personally eat it, but I would not disagree with somebody doing it.
Smoking is different, as you are taking something with "high" effects (stoned) into your lungs.
what on earth are you talking about? haha
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« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2013, 01:24:30 AM »

A couple of thoughts...

If our minds were rightly ordered to God I doubt we would want something that is mind-altering.

I agree that what God created was good and remains good.  That being said, the industrial uses of cannabis are much more valuable to humanity than recreational uses.  And don't forget that much of the recreational potential is a product of human interference.  


I agree completely. Good points.



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« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2013, 05:59:49 AM »

and helps them focus

Never met such person.



Hi, I'm Mike, nice to meet you.

While it's been a few years since I've touched the drug, it did indeed help me to drown out distractions and focus when I used it. That said, it's not an endorsement of use (for one, as has been previously mentioned on this thread, everyone has different reactions). Many of my shortcuts to desired states of mind from that time I would strongly caution against since becoming Orthodox.
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« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2013, 10:08:27 AM »

Doritos, anyone?  Grin
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« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2013, 11:17:52 AM »

Doritos, anyone?  Grin

only if Locos Tacos follows it.
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« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2013, 11:26:31 AM »

I think that marijuana is a harmful substance. But, so is tobacco, alcohol and most drugs. Even water can kill you (hint: water intoxication). Finally, food in excess can lead to obesity and all sorts of life-altering and ending conditions.

It appears that when adolescents use marijuana, their academic performance suffers and their IQ, perhaps irrevocably, is reduced by up to 10 points. I suppose it does not make a difference to a genius, but this is proof that marijuana is not the benign substance that so many folks believe that is is.

My thought is that a Christian should not use marijuana unless it is prescribed by a doctor. To do otherwise is to fall short.

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« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2013, 09:33:17 PM »

The use of alcohol as an intoxicant, or drunkenness at any rate, is frowned upon by the Church,

If you ignore the wedding in Cana...

I missed the part of the story where it became a drunken orgy of intoxication and excess. Oh, to have been there!
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« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2013, 09:37:25 PM »

Probably OT, but can someone explain to me why we are doing our best to outlaw cigarette smoking and allow marijuana smoking?

I'm gonna say aliens, because it seems to make sense in this case.
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« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2013, 09:38:21 PM »

Smoking tobacco is a sin

That would be news to the Greeks.

Which Greeks? The Ancient Greeks who visited the New World and smoked with Native Americans?
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« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2013, 09:40:53 PM »

here we go.

Here I go again on my own
Going down the only road I've ever known
Like a drifter I was born to walk alone
And I've made up my mind
I ain't wasting no more time


Asteriktos, you are awesome.
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« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2013, 09:41:55 PM »

here we go.

Where we go?  (Perhaps to a different forum??)
back down the spiral of insanity. 

If that's what you want.....
trust me, no it's not what I want.

Then perhaps it's not inevitable that we go "back down the spiral of insanity".  Not quite sure where that is, but...maybe we won't find out, after all. 

I don't get this "back down." It implies we left somehow.
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« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2013, 05:16:41 PM »

The use of alcohol as an intoxicant, or drunkenness at any rate, is frowned upon by the Church,

If you ignore the wedding in Cana...

I missed the part of the story where it became a drunken orgy of intoxication and excess. Oh, to have been there!

Jn 2, 10.
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« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2013, 06:04:53 PM »

All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church?
No
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« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2013, 06:08:08 PM »

All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church?
No

One would ask, why are you so sure?
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« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2013, 06:13:21 PM »

All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church?
No

One would ask, why are you so sure?
Why are you so sure?

I'm not going to debate potheads.  Just understand we are all going to be held accountable.  Are you so very sure there will be no negative to consuming a drug used to get high and nothing else?  You take the chance, but life has taught me to be a little smarter.
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« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2013, 06:16:53 PM »

Are you so very sure there will be no negative to consuming a drug used to get high and nothing else?

If it means pleasant buzz in the head and not passing out?
If it is done in circumstances nothing will require you perfectly sober (you are not driving, operating some machines, working...)?
If it is done in non-lenten period?  Not in the night before Eucharist?

Yeah.
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« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2013, 07:18:37 PM »

All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church?
No

One would ask, why are you so sure?
Why are you so sure?

I'm not going to debate potheads.  Just understand we are all going to be held accountable.  Are you so very sure there will be no negative to consuming a drug used to get high and nothing else?  You take the chance, but life has taught me to be a little smarter.
Same could be said for alcohol (as in "it is used to deter judgement and nothing else") or cigarettes ("it is used to keep you calm and fuel an addiction and nothing else")
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« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2013, 07:20:45 PM »

All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church?
No

One would ask, why are you so sure?
Why are you so sure?

I'm not going to debate potheads. 
Wow.
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« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2013, 07:21:26 PM »

Depends on the THC-ratio of the marijuana.
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« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2013, 07:32:53 PM »

All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church?
No

One would ask, why are you so sure?
Why are you so sure?

I'm not going to debate potheads.
Wow.

Not tried it in more than half a year...
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« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2013, 08:06:52 PM »

Are you so very sure there will be no negative to consuming a drug used to get high and nothing else?

If it means pleasant buzz in the head and not passing out?
If it is done in circumstances nothing will require you perfectly sober (you are not driving, operating some machines, working...)?
If it is done in non-lenten period?  Not in the night before Eucharist?

Yeah.
Cocaine, heroin, opium, khat...all good and acceptable, huh?  Go for it, but you're gonna be shocked later.  Not surprised because you already know better, but shocked.
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« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2013, 08:07:59 PM »

All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church?
No

One would ask, why are you so sure?
Why are you so sure?

I'm not going to debate potheads.  Just understand we are all going to be held accountable.  Are you so very sure there will be no negative to consuming a drug used to get high and nothing else?  You take the chance, but life has taught me to be a little smarter.
Same could be said for alcohol (as in "it is used to deter judgement and nothing else") or cigarettes ("it is used to keep you calm and fuel an addiction and nothing else")
We've been down this worn out road before.  Nothing new here.
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« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2013, 08:08:34 PM »

Are you so very sure there will be no negative to consuming a drug used to get high and nothing else?

If it means pleasant buzz in the head and not passing out?
If it is done in circumstances nothing will require you perfectly sober (you are not driving, operating some machines, working...)?
If it is done in non-lenten period?  Not in the night before Eucharist?

Yeah.
Cocaine, heroin, opium, khat...all good and acceptable, huh?  Go for it, but you're gonna be shocked later.  Not surprised because you already know better, but shocked.

We are not taling about these, are we?

It would really be nice if you knew what are you talking about. Really.
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« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2013, 08:09:10 PM »

All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church?
No

One would ask, why are you so sure?
Why are you so sure?

I'm not going to debate potheads. 
Wow.
Smoking pot, getting high...was it not an accurate assessment of those who promote the recreational use of a drug?
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« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2013, 08:10:17 PM »

Are you so very sure there will be no negative to consuming a drug used to get high and nothing else?

If it means pleasant buzz in the head and not passing out?
If it is done in circumstances nothing will require you perfectly sober (you are not driving, operating some machines, working...)?
If it is done in non-lenten period?  Not in the night before Eucharist?

Yeah.
Cocaine, heroin, opium, khat...all good and acceptable, huh?  Go for it, but you're gonna be shocked later.  Not surprised because you already know better, but shocked.

We are not taling about these, are we?

It would really be nice if you knew what are you talking about. Really.
I'm talking about them.  If you don't like it, you probably should not mention alcohol again.  But if those are bad, you're dishonest if you say MJ isn't.

I do.
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« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2013, 08:11:23 PM »

Are you so very sure there will be no negative to consuming a drug used to get high and nothing else?

If it means pleasant buzz in the head and not passing out?
If it is done in circumstances nothing will require you perfectly sober (you are not driving, operating some machines, working...)?
If it is done in non-lenten period?  Not in the night before Eucharist?

Yeah.
Cocaine, heroin, opium, khat...all good and acceptable, huh?  Go for it, but you're gonna be shocked later.  Not surprised because you already know better, but shocked.

We are not taling about these, are we?

It would really be nice if you knew what are you talking about. Really.
I do.

You wrote you never tried it. That makes your opinion of no account.
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« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2013, 08:14:11 PM »

Are you so very sure there will be no negative to consuming a drug used to get high and nothing else?

If it means pleasant buzz in the head and not passing out?
If it is done in circumstances nothing will require you perfectly sober (you are not driving, operating some machines, working...)?
If it is done in non-lenten period?  Not in the night before Eucharist?

Yeah.
Cocaine, heroin, opium, khat...all good and acceptable, huh?  Go for it, but you're gonna be shocked later.  Not surprised because you already know better, but shocked.

We are not taling about these, are we?

It would really be nice if you knew what are you talking about. Really.
I do.

You wrote you never tried it. That makes your opinion of no account.
Well, that certainly is a useless statement.

I've also never robbed a bank.  So what?

I've also never worshipped false gods, or murdered someone, or had an abortion, or a long list of other bad things.  By your statement, there is a lot you yourself shouldn't talk about.  Care to be the bigger man and show me how it's done?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 08:16:25 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2013, 08:14:25 PM »

All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church?
No

One would ask, why are you so sure?
Why are you so sure?

I'm not going to debate potheads.  Just understand we are all going to be held accountable.  Are you so very sure there will be no negative to consuming a drug used to get high and nothing else?  You take the chance, but life has taught me to be a little smarter.
Same could be said for alcohol (as in "it is used to deter judgement and nothing else") or cigarettes ("it is used to keep you calm and fuel an addiction and nothing else")
We've been down this worn out road before.  Nothing new here.
Yep, pot-smokers always try to justify weed, cigarette-smokers always try to justify smoking cigarettes, alcohol-drinkers always try to justify drinking alcohol, fornicators always try to justify fornication, same with adulterers, militarists, porn-addicts, junkies, adulterers etc.  There's a reason why we fast twice a week.
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« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2013, 08:17:15 PM »

All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church?
No

One would ask, why are you so sure?
Why are you so sure?

I'm not going to debate potheads.  Just understand we are all going to be held accountable.  Are you so very sure there will be no negative to consuming a drug used to get high and nothing else?  You take the chance, but life has taught me to be a little smarter.
Same could be said for alcohol (as in "it is used to deter judgement and nothing else") or cigarettes ("it is used to keep you calm and fuel an addiction and nothing else")
We've been down this worn out road before.  Nothing new here.
Yep, pot-smokers always try to justify weed, cigarette-smokers always try to justify smoking cigarettes, alcohol-drinkers always try to justify drinking alcohol, fornicators always try to justify fornication, same with adulterers, militarists, porn-addicts, junkies, adulterers etc.  There's a reason why we fast twice a week.
Was there a point in there somewhere?
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« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2013, 08:18:01 PM »

I've also never robbed a bank.  So what?

Alleged evil of smoking marijuana depends of its effects on its body and mind. Alleged evil of robbing a ban is objective. You have never tried it that means you cannot compare to alcohol/nicotine/coffeine-theine intoxication. That means you have no clue what you are posting about.
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« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2013, 08:19:22 PM »

All legal aspects aside, is marijuana smoking acceptable to the Church?
No

One would ask, why are you so sure?
Why are you so sure?

I'm not going to debate potheads.  Just understand we are all going to be held accountable.  Are you so very sure there will be no negative to consuming a drug used to get high and nothing else?  You take the chance, but life has taught me to be a little smarter.
Same could be said for alcohol (as in "it is used to deter judgement and nothing else") or cigarettes ("it is used to keep you calm and fuel an addiction and nothing else")
We've been down this worn out road before.  Nothing new here.
There's a reason why we fast twice a week.
Was there a point in there somewhere?
Made it easier for you
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« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2013, 08:21:56 PM »

I've also never robbed a bank.  So what?

Alleged evil of smoking marijuana depends of its effects on its body and mind. Alleged evil of robbing a ban is objective. You have never tried it that means you cannot compare to alcohol/nicotine/coffeine-theine intoxication. That means you have no clue what you are posting about.
So, celibate priests shouldn't counsel people about family relations, sexual conduct, abortions, etc.  You continue to dig a hole which you cannot escape simply by attempting to justify recreational use of a drug.  Good luck with that.
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« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2013, 08:23:17 PM »

I've also never robbed a bank.  So what?

Alleged evil of smoking marijuana depends of its effects on its body and mind. Alleged evil of robbing a ban is objective. You have never tried it that means you cannot compare to alcohol/nicotine/coffeine-theine intoxication. That means you have no clue what you are posting about.
So, celibate priests shouldn't counsel people about family relations,

Right.

Quote
You continue to dig a hole which you cannot escape simply by attempting to justify recreational use of a drug.  Good luck with that.

Don't you drink alcohol?
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« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2013, 08:25:28 PM »

What did I say?
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« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2013, 08:27:58 PM »

I've also never robbed a bank.  So what?

Alleged evil of smoking marijuana depends of its effects on its body and mind. Alleged evil of robbing a ban is objective. You have never tried it that means you cannot compare to alcohol/nicotine/coffeine-theine intoxication. That means you have no clue what you are posting about.
So, celibate priests shouldn't counsel people about family relations, sexual conduct, abortions

Right.

Quote
You continue to dig a hole which you cannot escape simply by attempting to justify recreational use of a drug.  Good luck with that.

Don't you drink alcohol?
Wow!  

Cocaine, opium, heroin, khat and a long list of other drugs.  You still don't want to talk about those?  You certainly are selective in what you want to debate.  Rather than learn, grow and be honest, you'd rather dance in the same worn out pair of shoes.  

Do what you will, advocate for that which destroys, serve self rather than God.  The bottom line is you know better.  I just hope you're prepared to accept the consequences.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 08:29:49 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2013, 08:29:57 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
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« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2013, 08:32:40 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
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« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2013, 08:35:59 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
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« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2013, 08:38:28 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
Good for you.
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« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2013, 08:39:25 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
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« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2013, 08:42:41 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven. 
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« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2013, 08:46:59 PM »

I've also never robbed a bank.  So what?

Alleged evil of smoking marijuana depends of its effects on its body and mind. Alleged evil of robbing a ban is objective. You have never tried it that means you cannot compare to alcohol/nicotine/coffeine-theine intoxication. That means you have no clue what you are posting about.
So, celibate priests shouldn't counsel people about family relations,

Right.

Quote
You continue to dig a hole which you cannot escape simply by attempting to justify recreational use of a drug.  Good luck with that.

Don't you drink alcohol?
Wait, you didn't answer the question and support your claims.  Shouldn't you...oh, that's right.  Deflection and misdirection.  Sorry, I almost forgot the modern debating tactics.
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« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2013, 08:47:22 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven. 
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
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« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2013, 08:52:35 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven.  
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
Would you laugh at an off hand comment about someone having sex without consent with a passed out drunk young lady?  No?  Then why the double standard?  Wrong is wrong and finding humor in that wrong and voicing your pleasure at the humor does nothing good.

If you do not support it, then you may not want to encourage it either.

But it was mainly for DR.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 08:53:12 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2013, 09:00:07 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven.  
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
Would you laugh at an off hand comment about someone having sex without consent with a passed out drunk young lady?  No?  Then why the double standard?  Wrong is wrong and finding humor in that wrong and voicing your pleasure at the humor does nothing good.

If you do not support it, then you may not want to encourage it either.

But it was mainly for DR.
I do not support it for myself, I also don't go around telling people who do that they are going to go to hell.  Again, there are reasons we have fast days.
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« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2013, 09:00:59 PM »

Haha
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« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2013, 09:18:25 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven.  
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
Would you laugh at an off hand comment about someone having sex without consent with a passed out drunk young lady?  No?  Then why the double standard?  Wrong is wrong and finding humor in that wrong and voicing your pleasure at the humor does nothing good.

If you do not support it, then you may not want to encourage it either.

But it was mainly for DR.
I do not support it for myself, I also don't go around telling people who do that they are going to go to hell.  Again, there are reasons we have fast days.
That's good, but only half so.

Neither do I.

What does that have to do with what we are talking about?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 09:19:34 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2013, 10:32:14 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven.  
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
Would you laugh at an off hand comment about someone having sex without consent with a passed out drunk young lady?  No?  Then why the double standard?  Wrong is wrong and finding humor in that wrong and voicing your pleasure at the humor does nothing good.

If you do not support it, then you may not want to encourage it either.

But it was mainly for DR.
I do not support it for myself, I also don't go around telling people who do that they are going to go to hell.  Again, there are reasons we have fast days.
That's good, but only half so.

Neither do I.

What does that have to do with what we are talking about?
All I'm saying is that it is wrong to judge someone based on a single nasty habit.  If someone can't go two or three days a week and up to 138 other days a year without doing something, then it is a problem.  If every nasty habit and/or indulgence is a sin then stop drinking alcohol, smoking, consuming meat and dairy products, eating sugar, eating sweet fruits, eating rare foods, etc.
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« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2013, 06:48:08 AM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven.  
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
Would you laugh at an off hand comment about someone having sex without consent with a passed out drunk young lady?  No?  Then why the double standard?  Wrong is wrong and finding humor in that wrong and voicing your pleasure at the humor does nothing good.

If you do not support it, then you may not want to encourage it either.

But it was mainly for DR.
I do not support it for myself, I also don't go around telling people who do that they are going to go to hell.  Again, there are reasons we have fast days.
That's good, but only half so.

Neither do I.

What does that have to do with what we are talking about?
All I'm saying is that it is wrong to judge someone based on a single nasty habit.  If someone can't go two or three days a week and up to 138 other days a year without doing something, then it is a problem.  If every nasty habit and/or indulgence is a sin then stop drinking alcohol, smoking, consuming meat and dairy products, eating sugar, eating sweet fruits, eating rare foods, etc.
I will never understand how people completely miss the point and then make empty points in an attempt to support...nothing, apparently.

Is getting high right or wrong?  This is the question.  It matters not if a person uses MJ, cocaine, Meth, MDMA, Hash, Spice, Salvia or any other drug chosen from a very extensive list of substances people use to recreationally get wasted.  Are we taught the occasional drunk is ok or than drunkenness is wrong?  I laugh when I see folks compare MJ to alcohol, but refuse to associate drunkenness with it, which is extremely telling and reveals the truth.  What you don't say is just as important as what you do.

It is wrong, it has always been wrong, it will always be wrong regardless of any hipster SNL comments a person ignorantly spews it a failed attempt to justify its use. 
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« Reply #86 on: April 08, 2013, 06:58:19 AM »

SNL?
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« Reply #87 on: April 08, 2013, 06:58:32 AM »

I've also never robbed a bank.  So what?

Alleged evil of smoking marijuana depends of its effects on its body and mind. Alleged evil of robbing a ban is objective. You have never tried it that means you cannot compare to alcohol/nicotine/coffeine-theine intoxication. That means you have no clue what you are posting about.
So, celibate priests shouldn't counsel people about family relations,

Right.

Quote
You continue to dig a hole which you cannot escape simply by attempting to justify recreational use of a drug.  Good luck with that.

Don't you drink alcohol?
I remember the part of the bible where Jesus turned water into wine.

I must've missed the part where he rolled one doobie and multiplied it as he passed them around to his disciples.  Grin
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« Reply #88 on: April 08, 2013, 07:02:25 AM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
It would seem that way............if your were stoned.

Take another hit or pass that sucker. Grin

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« Reply #89 on: April 08, 2013, 07:05:56 AM »

Quote
I will never understand how people completely miss the point and then make empty points in an attempt to support...nothing, apparently.


That's what happens when you have a discussion with people who are high, man.

You ever try arguing with a drunk?  Wink
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« Reply #90 on: April 08, 2013, 09:45:52 AM »

Quote
I will never understand how people completely miss the point and then make empty points in an attempt to support...nothing, apparently.


That's what happens when you have a discussion with people who are high, man.

You ever try arguing with a drunk?  Wink

One big reason why I never did drugs. In my experience, (of course this was when I was in college, when dinosaurs roamed the earth) people who are stoned are boring. But perhaps drug users of today are more interesting and conversational.
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« Reply #91 on: April 08, 2013, 10:11:17 AM »

Quote
I will never understand how people completely miss the point and then make empty points in an attempt to support...nothing, apparently.


That's what happens when you have a discussion with people who are high, man.

You ever try arguing with a drunk?  Wink

One big reason why I never did drugs. In my experience, (of course this was when I was in college, when dinosaurs roamed the earth) people who are stoned are boring. But perhaps drug users of today are more interesting and conversational.
Not so much.
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« Reply #92 on: April 08, 2013, 02:20:58 PM »

Quote
I will never understand how people completely miss the point and then make empty points in an attempt to support...nothing, apparently.


That's what happens when you have a discussion with people who are high, man.

You ever try arguing with a drunk?  Wink

One big reason why I never did drugs. In my experience, (of course this was when I was in college, when dinosaurs roamed the earth) people who are stoned are boring. But perhaps drug users of today are more interesting and conversational.

KofD, you were smarter than I was. Wink

In my vast experience, also back slightly before dinosaurs roamed the earth, of drug use and abuse, those of us (and there were many, many of us!) who were stoned were so enthralled with being stoned and the ridiculous and absurd (and probably pretty stupid) humor we imbued each other's jokes or comments with, and the sensory effects of the drugs, that we paid no attention to the fact that we might appear boring to those who were not stoned.  In fact, we thought *they* were boring.  Go figure.  I doubt anything has changed much since then apart from the strength of the drugs.  The only drug users that I've come across who were "conversational" (but not necessarily "interesting"--unless you, too, are stoned) are the ones using coke or speed.
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« Reply #93 on: April 08, 2013, 03:17:24 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven.  
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
Would you laugh at an off hand comment about someone having sex without consent with a passed out drunk young lady?  No?  Then why the double standard?  Wrong is wrong and finding humor in that wrong and voicing your pleasure at the humor does nothing good.

If you do not support it, then you may not want to encourage it either.

But it was mainly for DR.
I do not support it for myself, I also don't go around telling people who do that they are going to go to hell.  Again, there are reasons we have fast days.

The problem here is the OP"s question; What is the position of the Church regarding consumption of marijuana, cannabis, THC, etc.? In other words, does the Church think that it is a good thing or that it is a shortcoming or a sin? To attack those who say that it is not a good thing or that it is a sin is not fair at all. Plus, nobody is saying that anyone in particular is going to hell. What an idea!

I am so happy that you do not go around judging folks during the Great Lent... s/
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 03:35:53 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: April 08, 2013, 04:04:40 PM »

On Saturday we had a neighborhood party as part of Orioles opening weekend at Camden Yards.

Had a bonfire in a neighborhood yard.  Had a beer and a single hit on a pipe.  (Not a fast day if I recall, as far as alcohol goes.)

One beer.  A single hit. 

You non-smokers can argue all you like about the effects.  From your non-experience.  Or your experience of overindulging.

After one beer and one hit, my wife and I walked home just fine.  I was barely buzzed.  After that I was able to continue on the rest of my evening perfectly fine.  Which included....competently grading student papers, carrying on coherent conversations with my wife, taking my dog for an evening walk, watching a little TV, reading a little of "A Theology of Liberation," and cuddling with my wife as we sent to sleep.  Oh, and I said my prayers before bed.

Here's the thing.  You can say that you still don't like it, but...I don't care.  I just told you what happened and you can't disagree with that.  It's what I did, and it's what I did competently, in my right mind, and without vice. 

I could have taken 3 or 4 hits, and I'd have been super high and sloppy and out of it.  But I didn't, because I exercised self control.

Get over it.
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« Reply #95 on: April 08, 2013, 04:32:21 PM »

On Saturday we had a neighborhood party as part of Orioles opening weekend at Camden Yards.

Had a bonfire in a neighborhood yard.  Had a beer and a single hit on a pipe.  (Not a fast day if I recall, as far as alcohol goes.)

One beer.  A single hit. 

You non-smokers can argue all you like about the effects.  From your non-experience.  Or your experience of overindulging.

After one beer and one hit, my wife and I walked home just fine.  I was barely buzzed.  After that I was able to continue on the rest of my evening perfectly fine.  Which included....competently grading student papers, carrying on coherent conversations with my wife, taking my dog for an evening walk, watching a little TV, reading a little of "A Theology of Liberation," and cuddling with my wife as we sent to sleep.  Oh, and I said my prayers before bed.

Here's the thing.  You can say that you still don't like it, but...I don't care.  I just told you what happened and you can't disagree with that.  It's what I did, and it's what I did competently, in my right mind, and without vice. 

I could have taken 3 or 4 hits, and I'd have been super high and sloppy and out of it.  But I didn't, because I exercised self control.

Get over it.

Good for you! Please tell me how that makes marijuana use something that the Church would approve of. Is it because Deep Roots has been able to exercise self-control and was able to walk home safely?
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« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2013, 04:37:26 PM »

On Saturday we had a neighborhood party as part of Orioles opening weekend at Camden Yards.

Had a bonfire in a neighborhood yard.  Had a beer and a single hit on a pipe.  (Not a fast day if I recall, as far as alcohol goes.)

One beer.  A single hit. 

You non-smokers can argue all you like about the effects.  From your non-experience.  Or your experience of overindulging.

After one beer and one hit, my wife and I walked home just fine.  I was barely buzzed.  After that I was able to continue on the rest of my evening perfectly fine.  Which included....competently grading student papers, carrying on coherent conversations with my wife, taking my dog for an evening walk, watching a little TV, reading a little of "A Theology of Liberation," and cuddling with my wife as we sent to sleep.  Oh, and I said my prayers before bed.

Here's the thing.  You can say that you still don't like it, but...I don't care.  I just told you what happened and you can't disagree with that.  It's what I did, and it's what I did competently, in my right mind, and without vice. 

I could have taken 3 or 4 hits, and I'd have been super high and sloppy and out of it.  But I didn't, because I exercised self control.

Get over it.

Good for you! Please tell me how that makes marijuana use something that the Church would approve of. Is it because Deep Roots has been able to exercise self-control and was able to walk home safely?
I'm not saying the Church should approve of it.  I'm saying the people on this forum, most anyway, are incredibly thick on this issue.  I was merely challenging some of the misconceptions and assumptions people on this board are making about what weed DOES, how it does it, what smokers are like, and what state it puts them in.

Beyond that, I don't care.  Just trying to correct some errors.
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« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2013, 05:03:06 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven.  
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
Would you laugh at an off hand comment about someone having sex without consent with a passed out drunk young lady?  No?  Then why the double standard?  Wrong is wrong and finding humor in that wrong and voicing your pleasure at the humor does nothing good.

If you do not support it, then you may not want to encourage it either.

But it was mainly for DR.
I do not support it for myself, I also don't go around telling people who do that they are going to go to hell.  Again, there are reasons we have fast days.
That's good, but only half so.

Neither do I.

What does that have to do with what we are talking about?
All I'm saying is that it is wrong to judge someone based on a single nasty habit.  If someone can't go two or three days a week and up to 138 other days a year without doing something, then it is a problem.  If every nasty habit and/or indulgence is a sin then stop drinking alcohol, smoking, consuming meat and dairy products, eating sugar, eating sweet fruits, eating rare foods, etc.
I will never understand how people completely miss the point and then make empty points in an attempt to support...nothing, apparently.

Is getting high right or wrong?  This is the question.  It matters not if a person uses MJ, cocaine, Meth, MDMA, Hash, Spice, Salvia or any other drug chosen from a very extensive list of substances people use to recreationally get wasted.  Are we taught the occasional drunk is ok or than drunkenness is wrong?  I laugh when I see folks compare MJ to alcohol, but refuse to associate drunkenness with it, which is extremely telling and reveals the truth.  What you don't say is just as important as what you do.

It is wrong, it has always been wrong, it will always be wrong regardless of any hipster SNL comments a person ignorantly spews it a failed attempt to justify its use. 

Actually, the question is what is the Church's teaching on marijuana. Seeing as how it has never come up in the canons and only recently in the teachings of Orthodox priests, it does not seem that the Church specifically has a traditional teaching on marijuana.

Following that, the only way to determine what the Church's teaching on marijuana might be is by analogy, hence the many comments on alcohol and your own use of the intoxication argument. Is it possible to use marijuana and not get "wasted" or "high"? Of course, different people are going to have different interpretations "high" and what the Church Fathers might have considered an acceptable level of alcohol use would probably be considered "binge drinking" by the American medical establishment. At what level of drinking does one go past having one's heart "gladdened" and being drunk? What separates a feast and celebration from an orgy and debauchery? The Fathers never give us a two drink limit, they only condemn drunkeness and relate it to the lack of self control that drunkeness brings. Is there an analogous level of marijuana use, or does just one hit bypass gladdening and go straight to "wasted"?

"It is wrong, it has always been wrong, yadda yadda, hipster reference, SNL bashing". This is not an argument- it's a proclamation from on high, with no reference to tradition, the Church Fathers, or even a comparable Scripture reference.
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« Reply #98 on: April 08, 2013, 05:06:26 PM »

On Saturday we had a neighborhood party as part of Orioles opening weekend at Camden Yards.

Had a bonfire in a neighborhood yard.  Had a beer and a single hit on a pipe.  (Not a fast day if I recall, as far as alcohol goes.)

One beer.  A single hit. 

You non-smokers can argue all you like about the effects.  From your non-experience.  Or your experience of overindulging.

After one beer and one hit, my wife and I walked home just fine.  I was barely buzzed.  After that I was able to continue on the rest of my evening perfectly fine.  Which included....competently grading student papers, carrying on coherent conversations with my wife, taking my dog for an evening walk, watching a little TV, reading a little of "A Theology of Liberation," and cuddling with my wife as we sent to sleep.  Oh, and I said my prayers before bed.

Here's the thing.  You can say that you still don't like it, but...I don't care.  I just told you what happened and you can't disagree with that.  It's what I did, and it's what I did competently, in my right mind, and without vice. 

I could have taken 3 or 4 hits, and I'd have been super high and sloppy and out of it.  But I didn't, because I exercised self control.

Get over it.
And what medical purpose did it serve you with a beer?
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« Reply #99 on: April 08, 2013, 05:09:41 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven.  
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
Would you laugh at an off hand comment about someone having sex without consent with a passed out drunk young lady?  No?  Then why the double standard?  Wrong is wrong and finding humor in that wrong and voicing your pleasure at the humor does nothing good.

If you do not support it, then you may not want to encourage it either.

But it was mainly for DR.
I do not support it for myself, I also don't go around telling people who do that they are going to go to hell.  Again, there are reasons we have fast days.
That's good, but only half so.

Neither do I.

What does that have to do with what we are talking about?
All I'm saying is that it is wrong to judge someone based on a single nasty habit.  If someone can't go two or three days a week and up to 138 other days a year without doing something, then it is a problem.  If every nasty habit and/or indulgence is a sin then stop drinking alcohol, smoking, consuming meat and dairy products, eating sugar, eating sweet fruits, eating rare foods, etc.
I will never understand how people completely miss the point and then make empty points in an attempt to support...nothing, apparently.

Is getting high right or wrong?  This is the question.  It matters not if a person uses MJ, cocaine, Meth, MDMA, Hash, Spice, Salvia or any other drug chosen from a very extensive list of substances people use to recreationally get wasted.  Are we taught the occasional drunk is ok or than drunkenness is wrong?  I laugh when I see folks compare MJ to alcohol, but refuse to associate drunkenness with it, which is extremely telling and reveals the truth.  What you don't say is just as important as what you do.

It is wrong, it has always been wrong, it will always be wrong regardless of any hipster SNL comments a person ignorantly spews it a failed attempt to justify its use. 

Actually, the question is what is the Church's teaching on marijuana. Seeing as how it has never come up in the canons and only recently in the teachings of Orthodox priests, it does not seem that the Church specifically has a traditional teaching on marijuana.

Following that, the only way to determine what the Church's teaching on marijuana might be is by analogy, hence the many comments on alcohol and your own use of the intoxication argument. Is it possible to use marijuana and not get "wasted" or "high"? Of course, different people are going to have different interpretations "high" and what the Church Fathers might have considered an acceptable level of alcohol use would probably be considered "binge drinking" by the American medical establishment. At what level of drinking does one go past having one's heart "gladdened" and being drunk? What separates a feast and celebration from an orgy and debauchery? The Fathers never give us a two drink limit, they only condemn drunkeness and relate it to the lack of self control that drunkeness brings. Is there an analogous level of marijuana use, or does just one hit bypass gladdening and go straight to "wasted"?

"It is wrong, it has always been wrong, yadda yadda, hipster reference, SNL bashing". This is not an argument- it's a proclamation from on high, with no reference to tradition, the Church Fathers, or even a comparable Scripture reference.
Maybe it would help you not to look for loopholes.
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« Reply #100 on: April 08, 2013, 05:11:33 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven.  
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
Would you laugh at an off hand comment about someone having sex without consent with a passed out drunk young lady?  No?  Then why the double standard?  Wrong is wrong and finding humor in that wrong and voicing your pleasure at the humor does nothing good.

If you do not support it, then you may not want to encourage it either.

But it was mainly for DR.
I do not support it for myself, I also don't go around telling people who do that they are going to go to hell.  Again, there are reasons we have fast days.
That's good, but only half so.

Neither do I.

What does that have to do with what we are talking about?
All I'm saying is that it is wrong to judge someone based on a single nasty habit.  If someone can't go two or three days a week and up to 138 other days a year without doing something, then it is a problem.  If every nasty habit and/or indulgence is a sin then stop drinking alcohol, smoking, consuming meat and dairy products, eating sugar, eating sweet fruits, eating rare foods, etc.
I will never understand how people completely miss the point and then make empty points in an attempt to support...nothing, apparently.

Is getting high right or wrong?  This is the question.  It matters not if a person uses MJ, cocaine, Meth, MDMA, Hash, Spice, Salvia or any other drug chosen from a very extensive list of substances people use to recreationally get wasted.  Are we taught the occasional drunk is ok or than drunkenness is wrong?  I laugh when I see folks compare MJ to alcohol, but refuse to associate drunkenness with it, which is extremely telling and reveals the truth.  What you don't say is just as important as what you do.

It is wrong, it has always been wrong, it will always be wrong regardless of any hipster SNL comments a person ignorantly spews it a failed attempt to justify its use. 

Actually, the question is what is the Church's teaching on marijuana. Seeing as how it has never come up in the canons and only recently in the teachings of Orthodox priests, it does not seem that the Church specifically has a traditional teaching on marijuana.

Following that, the only way to determine what the Church's teaching on marijuana might be is by analogy, hence the many comments on alcohol and your own use of the intoxication argument. Is it possible to use marijuana and not get "wasted" or "high"? Of course, different people are going to have different interpretations "high" and what the Church Fathers might have considered an acceptable level of alcohol use would probably be considered "binge drinking" by the American medical establishment. At what level of drinking does one go past having one's heart "gladdened" and being drunk? What separates a feast and celebration from an orgy and debauchery? The Fathers never give us a two drink limit, they only condemn drunkeness and relate it to the lack of self control that drunkeness brings. Is there an analogous level of marijuana use, or does just one hit bypass gladdening and go straight to "wasted"?

"It is wrong, it has always been wrong, yadda yadda, hipster reference, SNL bashing". This is not an argument- it's a proclamation from on high, with no reference to tradition, the Church Fathers, or even a comparable Scripture reference.
Maybe it would help you not to look for loopholes.
Before I even worry about loopholes, I want proof that there's a loop to be worried about to begin with!  laugh
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« Reply #101 on: April 08, 2013, 05:12:41 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven.  
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
Would you laugh at an off hand comment about someone having sex without consent with a passed out drunk young lady?  No?  Then why the double standard?  Wrong is wrong and finding humor in that wrong and voicing your pleasure at the humor does nothing good.

If you do not support it, then you may not want to encourage it either.

But it was mainly for DR.
I do not support it for myself, I also don't go around telling people who do that they are going to go to hell.  Again, there are reasons we have fast days.
That's good, but only half so.

Neither do I.

What does that have to do with what we are talking about?
All I'm saying is that it is wrong to judge someone based on a single nasty habit.  If someone can't go two or three days a week and up to 138 other days a year without doing something, then it is a problem.  If every nasty habit and/or indulgence is a sin then stop drinking alcohol, smoking, consuming meat and dairy products, eating sugar, eating sweet fruits, eating rare foods, etc.
I will never understand how people completely miss the point and then make empty points in an attempt to support...nothing, apparently.

Is getting high right or wrong?  This is the question.  It matters not if a person uses MJ, cocaine, Meth, MDMA, Hash, Spice, Salvia or any other drug chosen from a very extensive list of substances people use to recreationally get wasted.  Are we taught the occasional drunk is ok or than drunkenness is wrong?  I laugh when I see folks compare MJ to alcohol, but refuse to associate drunkenness with it, which is extremely telling and reveals the truth.  What you don't say is just as important as what you do.

It is wrong, it has always been wrong, it will always be wrong regardless of any hipster SNL comments a person ignorantly spews it a failed attempt to justify its use. 

Actually, the question is what is the Church's teaching on marijuana. Seeing as how it has never come up in the canons and only recently in the teachings of Orthodox priests, it does not seem that the Church specifically has a traditional teaching on marijuana.

Following that, the only way to determine what the Church's teaching on marijuana might be is by analogy, hence the many comments on alcohol and your own use of the intoxication argument. Is it possible to use marijuana and not get "wasted" or "high"? Of course, different people are going to have different interpretations "high" and what the Church Fathers might have considered an acceptable level of alcohol use would probably be considered "binge drinking" by the American medical establishment. At what level of drinking does one go past having one's heart "gladdened" and being drunk? What separates a feast and celebration from an orgy and debauchery? The Fathers never give us a two drink limit, they only condemn drunkeness and relate it to the lack of self control that drunkeness brings. Is there an analogous level of marijuana use, or does just one hit bypass gladdening and go straight to "wasted"?

"It is wrong, it has always been wrong, yadda yadda, hipster reference, SNL bashing". This is not an argument- it's a proclamation from on high, with no reference to tradition, the Church Fathers, or even a comparable Scripture reference.
Maybe it would help you not to look for loopholes.
Before I even worry about loopholes, I want proof that there's a loop to be worried about to begin with!  laugh
Maybe it would help you not to look for loopholes.
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« Reply #102 on: April 08, 2013, 05:19:37 PM »


nobody is saying that anyone in particular is going to hell. What an idea!



Do what you will, advocate for that which destroys, serve self rather than God.  The bottom line is you know better.  I just hope you're prepared to accept the consequences.
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« Reply #103 on: April 08, 2013, 05:21:34 PM »

On Saturday we had a neighborhood party as part of Orioles opening weekend at Camden Yards.

Had a bonfire in a neighborhood yard.  Had a beer and a single hit on a pipe.  (Not a fast day if I recall, as far as alcohol goes.)

One beer.  A single hit. 

You non-smokers can argue all you like about the effects.  From your non-experience.  Or your experience of overindulging.

After one beer and one hit, my wife and I walked home just fine.  I was barely buzzed.  After that I was able to continue on the rest of my evening perfectly fine.  Which included....competently grading student papers, carrying on coherent conversations with my wife, taking my dog for an evening walk, watching a little TV, reading a little of "A Theology of Liberation," and cuddling with my wife as we sent to sleep.  Oh, and I said my prayers before bed.

Here's the thing.  You can say that you still don't like it, but...I don't care.  I just told you what happened and you can't disagree with that.  It's what I did, and it's what I did competently, in my right mind, and without vice. 

I could have taken 3 or 4 hits, and I'd have been super high and sloppy and out of it.  But I didn't, because I exercised self control.

Get over it.

Good for you! Please tell me how that makes marijuana use something that the Church would approve of. Is it because Deep Roots has been able to exercise self-control and was able to walk home safely?
I'm not saying the Church should approve of it.  I'm saying the people on this forum, most anyway, are incredibly thick on this issue.  I was merely challenging some of the misconceptions and assumptions people on this board are making about what weed DOES, how it does it, what smokers are like, and what state it puts them in.

Beyond that, I don't care.  Just trying to correct some errors.

Fair enough. OTOH, the topic is about the Church and the weed. What do you think the Church's position is or should be?

May I ask also if you would accept, strictly for the sake of arriving to an unthick position on this subject, scientific studies if they do not agree with your own experience?
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« Reply #104 on: April 08, 2013, 05:23:17 PM »

On Saturday we had a neighborhood party as part of Orioles opening weekend at Camden Yards.

Had a bonfire in a neighborhood yard.  Had a beer and a single hit on a pipe.  (Not a fast day if I recall, as far as alcohol goes.)

One beer.  A single hit. 

You non-smokers can argue all you like about the effects.  From your non-experience.  Or your experience of overindulging.

After one beer and one hit, my wife and I walked home just fine.  I was barely buzzed.  After that I was able to continue on the rest of my evening perfectly fine.  Which included....competently grading student papers, carrying on coherent conversations with my wife, taking my dog for an evening walk, watching a little TV, reading a little of "A Theology of Liberation," and cuddling with my wife as we sent to sleep.  Oh, and I said my prayers before bed.

Here's the thing.  You can say that you still don't like it, but...I don't care.  I just told you what happened and you can't disagree with that.  It's what I did, and it's what I did competently, in my right mind, and without vice. 

I could have taken 3 or 4 hits, and I'd have been super high and sloppy and out of it.  But I didn't, because I exercised self control.

Get over it.
And what medical purpose did it serve you with a beer?
none whatsoever. who cares?
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« Reply #105 on: April 08, 2013, 05:23:48 PM »


nobody is saying that anyone in particular is going to hell. What an idea!



Do what you will, advocate for that which destroys, serve self rather than God.  The bottom line is you know better.  I just hope you're prepared to accept the consequences.
And?
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« Reply #106 on: April 08, 2013, 05:25:06 PM »

On Saturday we had a neighborhood party as part of Orioles opening weekend at Camden Yards.

Had a bonfire in a neighborhood yard.  Had a beer and a single hit on a pipe.  (Not a fast day if I recall, as far as alcohol goes.)

One beer.  A single hit. 

You non-smokers can argue all you like about the effects.  From your non-experience.  Or your experience of overindulging.

After one beer and one hit, my wife and I walked home just fine.  I was barely buzzed.  After that I was able to continue on the rest of my evening perfectly fine.  Which included....competently grading student papers, carrying on coherent conversations with my wife, taking my dog for an evening walk, watching a little TV, reading a little of "A Theology of Liberation," and cuddling with my wife as we sent to sleep.  Oh, and I said my prayers before bed.

Here's the thing.  You can say that you still don't like it, but...I don't care.  I just told you what happened and you can't disagree with that.  It's what I did, and it's what I did competently, in my right mind, and without vice. 

I could have taken 3 or 4 hits, and I'd have been super high and sloppy and out of it.  But I didn't, because I exercised self control.

Get over it.
And what medical purpose did it serve you with a beer?
none whatsoever. who cares?
That's what I thought. That's pretty much what I said when everyone was beating the medicinal marijuana drum, but thanks for the confirmation.
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« Reply #107 on: April 08, 2013, 05:26:49 PM »


nobody is saying that anyone in particular is going to hell. What an idea!



Do what you will, advocate for that which destroys, serve self rather than God.  The bottom line is you know better.  I just hope you're prepared to accept the consequences.
And?
the post was not meant for you, but for Carl Kraeff and only to clarify my statement, it was not an attack in any way
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« Reply #108 on: April 08, 2013, 05:28:21 PM »


nobody is saying that anyone in particular is going to hell. What an idea!



Do what you will, advocate for that which destroys, serve self rather than God.  The bottom line is you know better.  I just hope you're prepared to accept the consequences.
To paraphrase Dirty Harry: well, do ya punk? Kerdy only asked you if you are prepared to accept the consequences. He did not condemn you to hell; indeed no Orthodox would. That is a different thing than discussing whether something is sinful or constitutes what we Orthodox describe as "falling short." As you may recall, we are not supposed to to certain things and we are supposed to do other things. One of the things we must do is to treat our bodies as temples for the Holy Spirit. A corollary is that we should not do things that harm our bodies. This is something that most of us do not do well. Indeed, all of us are sinners. Does that mean that we are doomed to go to hell? Please quit being self-defensive and cease accusing folks of judging you when nobody has.
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« Reply #109 on: April 08, 2013, 05:30:06 PM »


nobody is saying that anyone in particular is going to hell. What an idea!



Do what you will, advocate for that which destroys, serve self rather than God.  The bottom line is you know better.  I just hope you're prepared to accept the consequences.
And?
the post was not meant for you, but for Carl Kraeff and only to clarify my statement, it was not an attack in any way
It gives the appearance you are suggesting I am saying people will burn in hell for consuming MJ, which clearly I have not. 
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« Reply #110 on: April 08, 2013, 05:32:19 PM »

On Saturday we had a neighborhood party as part of Orioles opening weekend at Camden Yards.

Had a bonfire in a neighborhood yard.  Had a beer and a single hit on a pipe.  (Not a fast day if I recall, as far as alcohol goes.)

One beer.  A single hit. 

You non-smokers can argue all you like about the effects.  From your non-experience.  Or your experience of overindulging.

After one beer and one hit, my wife and I walked home just fine.  I was barely buzzed.  After that I was able to continue on the rest of my evening perfectly fine.  Which included....competently grading student papers, carrying on coherent conversations with my wife, taking my dog for an evening walk, watching a little TV, reading a little of "A Theology of Liberation," and cuddling with my wife as we sent to sleep.  Oh, and I said my prayers before bed.

Here's the thing.  You can say that you still don't like it, but...I don't care.  I just told you what happened and you can't disagree with that.  It's what I did, and it's what I did competently, in my right mind, and without vice. 

I could have taken 3 or 4 hits, and I'd have been super high and sloppy and out of it.  But I didn't, because I exercised self control.

Get over it.
And what medical purpose did it serve you with a beer?
none whatsoever. who cares?
That's what I thought. That's pretty much what I said when everyone was beating the medicinal marijuana drum, but thanks for the confirmation.
i havent said anything about medical.
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« Reply #111 on: April 08, 2013, 05:38:42 PM »


nobody is saying that anyone in particular is going to hell. What an idea!



Do what you will, advocate for that which destroys, serve self rather than God.  The bottom line is you know better.  I just hope you're prepared to accept the consequences.
To paraphrase Dirty Harry: well, do ya punk? Kerdy only asked you if you are prepared to accept the consequences. He did not condemn you to hell; indeed no Orthodox would. That is a different thing than discussing whether something is sinful or constitutes what we Orthodox describe as "falling short." As you may recall, we are not supposed to to certain things and we are supposed to do other things. One of the things we must do is to treat our bodies as temples for the Holy Spirit. A corollary is that we should not do things that harm our bodies. This is something that most of us do not do well. Indeed, all of us are sinners. Does that mean that we are doomed to go to hell? Please quit being self-defensive and cease accusing folks of judging you when nobody has.
IIRC the quote was directed at DR not me.
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« Reply #112 on: April 08, 2013, 05:40:56 PM »

On Saturday we had a neighborhood party as part of Orioles opening weekend at Camden Yards.

Had a bonfire in a neighborhood yard.  Had a beer and a single hit on a pipe.  (Not a fast day if I recall, as far as alcohol goes.)

One beer.  A single hit. 

You non-smokers can argue all you like about the effects.  From your non-experience.  Or your experience of overindulging.

After one beer and one hit, my wife and I walked home just fine.  I was barely buzzed.  After that I was able to continue on the rest of my evening perfectly fine.  Which included....competently grading student papers, carrying on coherent conversations with my wife, taking my dog for an evening walk, watching a little TV, reading a little of "A Theology of Liberation," and cuddling with my wife as we sent to sleep.  Oh, and I said my prayers before bed.

Here's the thing.  You can say that you still don't like it, but...I don't care.  I just told you what happened and you can't disagree with that.  It's what I did, and it's what I did competently, in my right mind, and without vice. 

I could have taken 3 or 4 hits, and I'd have been super high and sloppy and out of it.  But I didn't, because I exercised self control.

Get over it.
And what medical purpose did it serve you with a beer?
none whatsoever. who cares?
That's what I thought. That's pretty much what I said when everyone was beating the medicinal marijuana drum, but thanks for the confirmation.
i havent said anything about medical.
It simply proves what I said some time ago, and we all knew to be, was accurate.  The argument of medical use was a lie to get recreational use passed.  Somehow, I don't see the Church promoting people getting high.  And surprisingly (or not) people shy away from discussion of other drugs for recreational use because they know the same arguments would fail.  I wonder if Jesus would approve of lighting up a joint, getting high and stupid, just because it makes a person fell good.  I'm leaning toward His response being a no.  He never did so for anything else.
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« Reply #113 on: April 08, 2013, 05:42:37 PM »

My friend used pot when he was a teenager and dying (so the doctors told him) of cancer. Seemed to help him.
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« Reply #114 on: April 08, 2013, 05:46:52 PM »

I wonder if Jesus would approve of lighting up a joint, getting high and stupid, just because it makes a person fell good.  I'm leaning toward His response being a no.  He never did so for anything else.

He gave the wine to wedding guests who were already drunk (in a state they could not taste the difference between good and bad wine). Luckily, Jesus and Apostles were not Puritans.
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« Reply #115 on: April 08, 2013, 05:50:30 PM »


nobody is saying that anyone in particular is going to hell. What an idea!



Do what you will, advocate for that which destroys, serve self rather than God.  The bottom line is you know better.  I just hope you're prepared to accept the consequences.
To paraphrase Dirty Harry: well, do ya punk? Kerdy only asked you if you are prepared to accept the consequences. He did not condemn you to hell; indeed no Orthodox would. That is a different thing than discussing whether something is sinful or constitutes what we Orthodox describe as "falling short." As you may recall, we are not supposed to to certain things and we are supposed to do other things. One of the things we must do is to treat our bodies as temples for the Holy Spirit. A corollary is that we should not do things that harm our bodies. This is something that most of us do not do well. Indeed, all of us are sinners. Does that mean that we are doomed to go to hell? Please quit being self-defensive and cease accusing folks of judging you when nobody has.
IIRC the quote was directed at DR not me.

You are right. I had directed my comment to your post of yesterday where you said "I do not support it for myself, I also don't go around telling people who do that they are going to go to hell.  Again, there are reasons we have fast days." Since then it seems that I did confuse you with Deep Roots and I do apologize for that. Do you mind if I ask you what you think the Church's position is (or should be)?
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« Reply #116 on: April 08, 2013, 05:51:16 PM »

I wonder if Jesus would approve of lighting up a joint, getting high and stupid, just because it makes a person fell good.  I'm leaning toward His response being a no.  He never did so for anything else.

He gave the wine to wedding guests who were already drunk (in a state they could not taste the difference between good and bad wine). Luckily, Jesus and Apostles were not Puritans.
Ah, the old "Jesus made wine" argument, which thus far has really said nothing at all.  Care to try again rather than avoid what I posted or is this your only defense?
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« Reply #117 on: April 08, 2013, 05:54:03 PM »

I wonder if Jesus would approve of lighting up a joint, getting high and stupid, just because it makes a person fell good.  I'm leaning toward His response being a no.  He never did so for anything else.

He gave the wine to wedding guests who were already drunk (in a state they could not taste the difference between good and bad wine). Luckily, Jesus and Apostles were not Puritans.
Ah, the old "Jesus made wine" argument, which thus far has really said nothing at all.  Care to try again rather than avoid what I posted or is this your only defense?

That overthrows your theory that moderate intoxication from time to time is sinful since Christ helped others to get it.

I don't care about your other "arguments". I do not consider your spiritual advice important in any way.
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« Reply #118 on: April 08, 2013, 05:55:25 PM »

Do you mind if I ask you what you think the Church's position is (or should be)?
Same as with alcohol, don't get so wasted you can't remember what happened the next day and none on any fast days
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« Reply #119 on: April 08, 2013, 06:25:04 PM »

I wonder if Jesus would approve of lighting up a joint, getting high and stupid, just because it makes a person fell good.  I'm leaning toward His response being a no.  He never did so for anything else.

He gave the wine to wedding guests who were already drunk (in a state they could not taste the difference between good and bad wine). Luckily, Jesus and Apostles were not Puritans.
Ah, the old "Jesus made wine" argument, which thus far has really said nothing at all.  Care to try again rather than avoid what I posted or is this your only defense?

That overthrows your theory that moderate intoxication from time to time is sinful since Christ helped others to get it.

I don't care about your other "arguments". I do not consider your spiritual advice important in any way.
I more than adequately refuted your faulty claim in another thread.  No need to do it again here.

And according to your post in this thread, you apparently do not consider the spiritual advice of priests important either, so I take comfort to be in good company.
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« Reply #120 on: April 08, 2013, 06:27:27 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven.  
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
Would you laugh at an off hand comment about someone having sex without consent with a passed out drunk young lady?  No?  Then why the double standard?  Wrong is wrong and finding humor in that wrong and voicing your pleasure at the humor does nothing good.

If you do not support it, then you may not want to encourage it either.

But it was mainly for DR.
I do not support it for myself, I also don't go around telling people who do that they are going to go to hell.  Again, there are reasons we have fast days.
That's good, but only half so.

Neither do I.

What does that have to do with what we are talking about?
All I'm saying is that it is wrong to judge someone based on a single nasty habit.  If someone can't go two or three days a week and up to 138 other days a year without doing something, then it is a problem.  If every nasty habit and/or indulgence is a sin then stop drinking alcohol, smoking, consuming meat and dairy products, eating sugar, eating sweet fruits, eating rare foods, etc.
I will never understand how people completely miss the point and then make empty points in an attempt to support...nothing, apparently.

Is getting high right or wrong?  This is the question.  It matters not if a person uses MJ, cocaine, Meth, MDMA, Hash, Spice, Salvia or any other drug chosen from a very extensive list of substances people use to recreationally get wasted.  Are we taught the occasional drunk is ok or than drunkenness is wrong?  I laugh when I see folks compare MJ to alcohol, but refuse to associate drunkenness with it, which is extremely telling and reveals the truth.  What you don't say is just as important as what you do.

It is wrong, it has always been wrong, it will always be wrong regardless of any hipster SNL comments a person ignorantly spews it a failed attempt to justify its use. 

Actually, the question is what is the Church's teaching on marijuana. Seeing as how it has never come up in the canons and only recently in the teachings of Orthodox priests, it does not seem that the Church specifically has a traditional teaching on marijuana.

Following that, the only way to determine what the Church's teaching on marijuana might be is by analogy, hence the many comments on alcohol and your own use of the intoxication argument. Is it possible to use marijuana and not get "wasted" or "high"? Of course, different people are going to have different interpretations "high" and what the Church Fathers might have considered an acceptable level of alcohol use would probably be considered "binge drinking" by the American medical establishment. At what level of drinking does one go past having one's heart "gladdened" and being drunk? What separates a feast and celebration from an orgy and debauchery? The Fathers never give us a two drink limit, they only condemn drunkeness and relate it to the lack of self control that drunkeness brings. Is there an analogous level of marijuana use, or does just one hit bypass gladdening and go straight to "wasted"?

"It is wrong, it has always been wrong, yadda yadda, hipster reference, SNL bashing". This is not an argument- it's a proclamation from on high, with no reference to tradition, the Church Fathers, or even a comparable Scripture reference.
Maybe it would help you not to look for loopholes.
Before I even worry about loopholes, I want proof that there's a loop to be worried about to begin with!  laugh
Maybe it would help you not to look for loopholes.
And what a merry-go-round we find ourselves on.

If it helps at all, my problem is not with your final position, merely the route you're taking to get there. You've been making a lot of proclamations without any convincing arguments, such dogmatic statements without a rational position detracts from the point you are trying to make.

I have no need of loopholes. Yes, I used to smoke pot. Yes, at one point I was even a pot-head. I don't now, and haven't for close to three years. Even if it magically became legal overnight I wouldn't.

The reason your argument fails isn't because everyone is trying to rationalize something they enjoy, but quite frankly because the actual effects of marijuana have yet to be discussed without your interjecting the DEA dogmatic line. Now, were we all good citizens before becoming Orthodox or Christian, and just flat out never tried the stuff because Uncle Sam told us it was bad and would have us raping women and hanging out with black people, your argument might work. But we weren't- or some us just don't come from countries where marijuana has the stigma and illegality it does here in the US. This means that our experiences are different- we know for a fact that it is possible to smoke without getting "high" or wasted or any level of buzzed past one or two drinks. We know that for the majority of people who use marijuana exclusively do not end up in the type of debauchery that the Fathers condemned drunkeness as leading to, that marijuana use does not lead to the loss of self control that alcohol and other drugs lead to. The fact of the matter is that marijuana use is not analogous to all the drugs you mentioned in its effect- as far as the consequences of its use goes, it is more benign than alcohol. Either accept that this is the case, or stay out of the argument, otherwise you are making your own position appear ridiculous.

There are plenty of factual arguments you can use- the link between marijuana use and chromosonal damage along with Second Chance's argument about damaging the body.

I speak from experience when I say that marijuana used even occasionally can become a crutch if the use of becomes associated with certain activities almost exclusively. There are certain albums I just can't listen to anymore, and certain types of movies that I don't find enjoyable, not because I had to be high to enjoy them but because the usage was so associated with the activity that it was impossible to enjoy for several years afterward. I only just recently started to be able to play video games all the way through again.
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« Reply #121 on: April 08, 2013, 06:30:49 PM »

Spiral of insanity and Kerdy is driving the train
Actually, I'm attempting to use the breaks, but the other passengers seem to enjoy the ride.
i enjoy the ride with a nice bowl of organic californian bud.
lol
Without knowingly doing so, my points are being proven.  
What, you think I'm trying to justify weed?
Would you laugh at an off hand comment about someone having sex without consent with a passed out drunk young lady?  No?  Then why the double standard?  Wrong is wrong and finding humor in that wrong and voicing your pleasure at the humor does nothing good.

If you do not support it, then you may not want to encourage it either.

But it was mainly for DR.
I do not support it for myself, I also don't go around telling people who do that they are going to go to hell.  Again, there are reasons we have fast days.
That's good, but only half so.

Neither do I.

What does that have to do with what we are talking about?
All I'm saying is that it is wrong to judge someone based on a single nasty habit.  If someone can't go two or three days a week and up to 138 other days a year without doing something, then it is a problem.  If every nasty habit and/or indulgence is a sin then stop drinking alcohol, smoking, consuming meat and dairy products, eating sugar, eating sweet fruits, eating rare foods, etc.
I will never understand how people completely miss the point and then make empty points in an attempt to support...nothing, apparently.

Is getting high right or wrong?  This is the question.  It matters not if a person uses MJ, cocaine, Meth, MDMA, Hash, Spice, Salvia or any other drug chosen from a very extensive list of substances people use to recreationally get wasted.  Are we taught the occasional drunk is ok or than drunkenness is wrong?  I laugh when I see folks compare MJ to alcohol, but refuse to associate drunkenness with it, which is extremely telling and reveals the truth.  What you don't say is just as important as what you do.

It is wrong, it has always been wrong, it will always be wrong regardless of any hipster SNL comments a person ignorantly spews it a failed attempt to justify its use.  

Actually, the question is what is the Church's teaching on marijuana. Seeing as how it has never come up in the canons and only recently in the teachings of Orthodox priests, it does not seem that the Church specifically has a traditional teaching on marijuana.

Following that, the only way to determine what the Church's teaching on marijuana might be is by analogy, hence the many comments on alcohol and your own use of the intoxication argument. Is it possible to use marijuana and not get "wasted" or "high"? Of course, different people are going to have different interpretations "high" and what the Church Fathers might have considered an acceptable level of alcohol use would probably be considered "binge drinking" by the American medical establishment. At what level of drinking does one go past having one's heart "gladdened" and being drunk? What separates a feast and celebration from an orgy and debauchery? The Fathers never give us a two drink limit, they only condemn drunkeness and relate it to the lack of self control that drunkeness brings. Is there an analogous level of marijuana use, or does just one hit bypass gladdening and go straight to "wasted"?

"It is wrong, it has always been wrong, yadda yadda, hipster reference, SNL bashing". This is not an argument- it's a proclamation from on high, with no reference to tradition, the Church Fathers, or even a comparable Scripture reference.
Maybe it would help you not to look for loopholes.
Before I even worry about loopholes, I want proof that there's a loop to be worried about to begin with!  laugh
Maybe it would help you not to look for loopholes.
And what a merry-go-round we find ourselves on.

If it helps at all, my problem is not with your final position, merely the route you're taking to get there. You've been making a lot of proclamations without any convincing arguments, such dogmatic statements without a rational position detracts from the point you are trying to make.

I have no need of loopholes. Yes, I used to smoke pot. Yes, at one point I was even a pot-head. I don't now, and haven't for close to three years. Even if it magically became legal overnight I wouldn't.

The reason your argument fails isn't because everyone is trying to rationalize something they enjoy, but quite frankly because the actual effects of marijuana have yet to be discussed without your interjecting the DEA dogmatic line. Now, were we all good citizens before becoming Orthodox or Christian, and just flat out never tried the stuff because Uncle Sam told us it was bad and would have us raping women and hanging out with black people, your argument might work. But we weren't- or some us just don't come from countries where marijuana has the stigma and illegality it does here in the US. This means that our experiences are different- we know for a fact that it is possible to smoke without getting "high" or wasted or any level of buzzed past one or two drinks. We know that for the majority of people who use marijuana exclusively do not end up in the type of debauchery that the Fathers condemned drunkeness as leading to, that marijuana use does not lead to the loss of self control that alcohol and other drugs lead to. The fact of the matter is that marijuana use is not analogous to all the drugs you mentioned in its effect- as far as the consequences of its use goes, it is more benign than alcohol. Either accept that this is the case, or stay out of the argument, otherwise you are making your own position appear ridiculous.

There are plenty of factual arguments you can use- the link between marijuana use and chromosonal damage along with Second Chance's argument about damaging the body.

I speak from experience when I say that marijuana used even occasionally can become a crutch if the use of becomes associated with certain activities almost exclusively. There are certain albums I just can't listen to anymore, and certain types of movies that I don't find enjoyable, not because I had to be high to enjoy them but because the usage was so associated with the activity that it was impossible to enjoy for several years afterward. I only just recently started to be able to play video games all the way through again.
You'll must forgive me for not reading all of your post.  I will simply say if you can't take the entirety of Scripture and Tradition and draw a logical conclusion for a position of the Church rather than cherry pick what you like and look for loopholes to justify your wants, you (and others) have more serious problems than MJ.
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« Reply #122 on: April 08, 2013, 06:38:59 PM »

And according to your post in this thread, you apparently do not consider the spiritual advice of priests important either, so I take comfort to be in good company.

AFAIR, you are not a priest but a convert with a probation in Orthodoxy about 19 year shorter than mine. I won't tread your "spiritual advice" seriously since you certainly have problems in leaving your Evangelical mentality so stop pretending to be an elder to everyone.

If you provide some opinion by actual Orthodox theologian that alcohol intoxication is always a sin, I'll reconsider my opinion. But now, stop pretending you are a spiritual guide and know what is sinful and what is not.
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« Reply #123 on: April 08, 2013, 06:44:47 PM »

But now, stop pretending you are a spiritual guide and know what is sinful and what is not.
did you mean to post this just to him, or..to 80% of the members of this message board?
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« Reply #124 on: April 08, 2013, 06:51:25 PM »

And according to your post in this thread, you apparently do not consider the spiritual advice of priests important either, so I take comfort to be in good company.

AFAIR, you are not a priest but a convert with a probation in Orthodoxy about 19 year shorter than mine. I won't tread your "spiritual advice" seriously since you certainly have problems in leaving your Evangelical mentality so stop pretending to be an elder to everyone.

If you provide some opinion by actual Orthodox theologian that alcohol intoxication is always a sin, I'll reconsider my opinion. But now, stop pretending you are a spiritual guide and know what is sinful and what is not.
It hurts when your own words return to haunt you, doesn't it...
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« Reply #125 on: April 09, 2013, 09:21:22 AM »

Quote
We know that for the majority of people who use marijuana exclusively do not end up in the type of debauchery that the Fathers condemned drunkeness as leading to, that marijuana use does not lead to the loss of self control that alcohol and other drugs lead to.

We do?
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« Reply #126 on: April 09, 2013, 09:48:52 AM »

Do you mind if I ask you what you think the Church's position is (or should be)?
Same as with alcohol, don't get so wasted you can't remember what happened the next day and none on any fast days
Sorry, Carl, somehow I missed this question that you asked of me.  I agree in general with pmpn.  Weed ought to be in the same category as alcohol.
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« Reply #127 on: April 09, 2013, 10:20:32 AM »

Do you mind if I ask you what you think the Church's position is (or should be)?
Same as with alcohol, don't get so wasted you can't remember what happened the next day and none on any fast days
Sorry, Carl, somehow I missed this question that you asked of me.  I agree in general with pmpn.  Weed ought to be in the same category as alcohol.
Unless, of course, we consider some people enjoy a drink now and again without getting intoxicated and enjoy the flavor.  I know of no one who has ever smoke pot not to get high, and I've met hundreds.  Everyone i have met who smokes it gets high.  If they didnt, they wouldnt smoke it.  If your claim is true (doubtful at besy) someone can smoke and not get high, there is no point in smoking it.  Even heavy users admit it stinks and tastes bad and the only reason is for the high, not flavor...so now what?  Any other foolish claims to be made or are we just going to stick to the same ones.

Still waiting on what what the EFC's, Apostles or Jesus would say...and why. 
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« Reply #128 on: April 09, 2013, 10:41:01 AM »

If your claim is true (doubtful at besy) someone can smoke and not get high, there is no point in smoking it.
Did I say that people smoke not to get high?

There are degrees of being high, Kerdy.  My experience on saturday was a high that was equivalent to roughly 2 beers (Dogfish, not Coors).  I was BARELY HIGH. 

I don't know if you've ever smoked or not, so you may not know about degrees of being high.

I have been high as a friggin kite before.  Because I smoked a lot.  That was bad.
On the other hand there is a whole range of high-ness, just as there is a range of experiencing the effects of alcohol.
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« Reply #129 on: April 09, 2013, 10:54:28 AM »

I have this vision in my head of Kerdy looking like Sgt. Joe Friday.
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« Reply #130 on: April 09, 2013, 11:23:54 AM »

I have this vision in my head of Kerdy looking like Sgt. Joe Friday.
in his mind, I think he thinks he looks like this:

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« Reply #131 on: April 09, 2013, 11:35:49 AM »

There are degrees of being high, Kerdy.  My experience on saturday was a high that was equivalent to roughly 2 beers (Dogfish, not Coors).  I was BARELY HIGH. 

I don't know if you've ever smoked or not, so you may not know about degrees of being high.

I have been high as a friggin kite before.  Because I smoked a lot.  That was bad.
On the other hand there is a whole range of high-ness, just as there is a range of experiencing the effects of alcohol.

The Ladder of Potty Descent... Hardly Orthodox.   
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« Reply #132 on: April 09, 2013, 11:37:46 AM »

There are degrees of being high, Kerdy.  My experience on saturday was a high that was equivalent to roughly 2 beers (Dogfish, not Coors).  I was BARELY HIGH. 

I don't know if you've ever smoked or not, so you may not know about degrees of being high.

I have been high as a friggin kite before.  Because I smoked a lot.  That was bad.
On the other hand there is a whole range of high-ness, just as there is a range of experiencing the effects of alcohol.

The Ladder of Potty Descent... "Barely" Orthodox.   Roll Eyes
Please Father, forgive me my sins.  Please give me your mystical advice.
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« Reply #133 on: April 09, 2013, 11:41:51 AM »

Please Father, forgive me my sins.  Please give me your mystical advice.

Pot seems to be mystical enough for you. 
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« Reply #134 on: April 09, 2013, 11:53:46 AM »

Please Father, forgive me my sins.  Please give me your mystical advice.

Pot seems to be mystical enough for you. 
that doesn't even make sense.  You high?
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« Reply #135 on: April 09, 2013, 12:02:22 PM »

I don't know if you've ever smoked or not, so you may not know about degrees of being high.

He hasn't. He has no idea what he is talking about.
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« Reply #136 on: April 09, 2013, 12:04:00 PM »

Please Father, forgive me my sins.  Please give me your mystical advice.

Pot seems to be mystical enough for you. 
that doesn't even make sense.  You high?

Now do you see what's wrong with pot? It impairs communication, since people will always be at different "altitudes".

Forgive my lowliness, your highness. Or whichever way around.  Tongue 
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« Reply #137 on: April 09, 2013, 12:12:53 PM »

Please Father, forgive me my sins.  Please give me your mystical advice.

Pot seems to be mystical enough for you. 
that doesn't even make sense.  You high?

Now do you see what's wrong with pot? It impairs communication, since people will always be at different "altitudes".

Forgive my lowliness, your highness. Or whichever way around.  Tongue 
Yes
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« Reply #138 on: April 09, 2013, 12:28:40 PM »

If your claim is true (doubtful at besy) someone can smoke and not get high, there is no point in smoking it.
Did I say that people smoke not to get high?

There are degrees of being high, Kerdy.  My experience on saturday was a high that was equivalent to roughly 2 beers (Dogfish, not Coors).  I was BARELY HIGH.  

I don't know if you've ever smoked or not, so you may not know about degrees of being high.

I have been high as a friggin kite before.  Because I smoked a lot.  That was bad.
On the other hand there is a whole range of high-ness, just as there is a range of experiencing the effects of alcohol.
You are correct.  There are two degrees of high.  High and not high.  Everything else is semantics.  It's like saying someone is only a little bit pregnant or you only murdered someone half way, or anything else.  Doesn't make any sense in the real world.  But I forget, your 19 years of life and pseudo-wisdom is better than my more than 19 years of adult experiences and knowledge.
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« Reply #139 on: April 09, 2013, 12:30:47 PM »

There are degrees of being high, Kerdy.  My experience on saturday was a high that was equivalent to roughly 2 beers (Dogfish, not Coors).  I was BARELY HIGH. 

I don't know if you've ever smoked or not, so you may not know about degrees of being high.

I have been high as a friggin kite before.  Because I smoked a lot.  That was bad.
On the other hand there is a whole range of high-ness, just as there is a range of experiencing the effects of alcohol.

The Ladder of Potty Descent... "Barely" Orthodox.   Roll Eyes
Please Father, forgive me my sins.  Please give me your mystical advice.
Sarcasm and stupidity are many times the same thing.  Something to think about, not that you will.
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« Reply #140 on: April 09, 2013, 12:31:45 PM »

Please Father, forgive me my sins.  Please give me your mystical advice.

Pot seems to be mystical enough for you. 
that doesn't even make sense.  You high?
Sure it does.
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« Reply #141 on: April 09, 2013, 12:34:08 PM »

I don't know if you've ever smoked or not, so you may not know about degrees of being high.

He hasn't. He has no idea what he is talking about.
Have you ever been Protestant?  No?  Ever been pregnant?  Ever piloted an aircraft, run a bank, been President, been a priest or bishop?  So we should never expect to hear anything from you about anything related to the topics, right?
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« Reply #142 on: April 09, 2013, 12:42:16 PM »

You are correct.  There are two degrees of high.  High and not high.

Don't you really see the difference between 3 beers and 0.5 l of vodka?

You must have extremely strong head.

Or unimaginably weak.
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« Reply #143 on: April 09, 2013, 12:45:35 PM »

If your claim is true (doubtful at besy) someone can smoke and not get high, there is no point in smoking it.
Did I say that people smoke not to get high?

There are degrees of being high, Kerdy.  My experience on saturday was a high that was equivalent to roughly 2 beers (Dogfish, not Coors).  I was BARELY HIGH.  

I don't know if you've ever smoked or not, so you may not know about degrees of being high.

I have been high as a friggin kite before.  Because I smoked a lot.  That was bad.
On the other hand there is a whole range of high-ness, just as there is a range of experiencing the effects of alcohol.
You are correct.  There are two degrees of high.  High and not high.  Everything else is semantics.  It's like saying someone is only a little bit pregnant or you only murdered someone half way, or anything else.  Doesn't make any sense in the real world.  But I forget, your 19 years of life and pseudo-wisdom is better than my more than 19 years of adult experiences and knowledge.
19 years of adult experience?
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« Reply #144 on: April 09, 2013, 12:46:00 PM »

You are correct.  There are two degrees of high.  High and not high.

Don't you really see the difference between 3 beers and 0.5 l of vodka?

You must have extremely strong head.

Or unimaginably weak.

don't question His Eminence. He's meditating.  Or something.
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« Reply #145 on: April 09, 2013, 01:26:00 PM »

I wonder if Jesus would approve of lighting up a joint, getting high and stupid, just because it makes a person fell good.  I'm leaning toward His response being a no.  He never did so for anything else.

He gave the wine to wedding guests who were already drunk (in a state they could not taste the difference between good and bad wine). Luckily, Jesus and Apostles were not Puritans.
Ah, the old "Jesus made wine" argument, which thus far has really said nothing at all.  Care to try again rather than avoid what I posted or is this your only defense?

That overthrows your theory that moderate intoxication from time to time is sinful since Christ helped others to get it.

I don't care about your other "arguments". I do not consider your spiritual advice important in any way.

No need to get confrontational. We should all consider each other's advice, spiritual or other, carefully lest we do not discern that it is the Lord speaking to us through our interlocutors.
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« Reply #146 on: April 09, 2013, 01:28:05 PM »

I wonder if Jesus would approve of lighting up a joint, getting high and stupid, just because it makes a person fell good.  I'm leaning toward His response being a no.  He never did so for anything else.

He gave the wine to wedding guests who were already drunk (in a state they could not taste the difference between good and bad wine). Luckily, Jesus and Apostles were not Puritans.
Ah, the old "Jesus made wine" argument, which thus far has really said nothing at all.  Care to try again rather than avoid what I posted or is this your only defense?

That overthrows your theory that moderate intoxication from time to time is sinful since Christ helped others to get it.

I don't care about your other "arguments". I do not consider your spiritual advice important in any way.

No need to get confrontational. We should all consider each other's advice, spiritual or other, carefully lest we do not discern that it is the Lord speaking to us through our interlocutors.
Then perhaps Kerdy can take our advice in the same manner?  How's that sound?
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« Reply #147 on: April 09, 2013, 01:36:45 PM »

And according to your post in this thread, you apparently do not consider the spiritual advice of priests important either, so I take comfort to be in good company.

AFAIR, you are not a priest but a convert with a probation in Orthodoxy about 19 year shorter than mine. I won't tread your "spiritual advice" seriously since you certainly have problems in leaving your Evangelical mentality so stop pretending to be an elder to everyone.

If you provide some opinion by actual Orthodox theologian that alcohol intoxication is always a sin, I'll reconsider my opinion. But now, stop pretending you are a spiritual guide and know what is sinful and what is not.

I have no idea if Kerdy responded to this. I just feel compelled to say that it is astounding to me that cradles are insulting converts, especially with bringing to the table some sort of Evangelical mentality.

Do you think that heterodox Christians are 100% wrong? Don't we have the same foundational source? The problem here I suspect is the usual Northern European defensiveness about alcohol intoxication. In my part of Orthodoxy, it was a tragedy for someone to be so intoxicated--not common place at all. Would you consider and damn my little part of Orthodoxy for having Evangelical mentality?

That said, intoxication is falling short. Smoking cigarettes is falling short. Smoking marijuana is falling short. Cutting yourself is falling short. Not guarding your mouth is falling short. Needlessly insulting others is falling short. I am a sinner; I have and will probably continue to fall short. I so declare as a cradle. I assure you that I will bring to the table citations from the Holy Scriptures and the Fathers to back me up.
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« Reply #148 on: April 09, 2013, 01:38:12 PM »


You are correct.  There are two degrees of high.  High and not high.  Everything else is semantics.  

I feel like an anesthesiologist should be able to verify or discredit this statement fairly easily. Does anyone know an Anesthesiologist so we can at least put this part of the never-ending debate to rest?
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« Reply #149 on: April 09, 2013, 01:38:29 PM »

Since even the moderator himself (me) is losing his cool, I am going to lock this up until passions cool down. Recessed until after Pascha. Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #150 on: May 08, 2013, 11:19:43 AM »

This topic is unlocked as promised. Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #151 on: May 08, 2013, 04:27:27 PM »

Hey! whut whut  Tongue .....  laugh
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« Reply #152 on: May 08, 2013, 04:33:12 PM »

Hey! whut whut  Tongue .....  laugh

Welcome back to this thread. Here, have a complimentary joint.
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« Reply #153 on: May 08, 2013, 04:38:21 PM »

Whould pascha be complete without a joint?
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« Reply #154 on: May 08, 2013, 06:30:51 PM »

Whould pascha be complete without a joint?
Why stop there?  Why not a few lines of cocaine or a needle full of heroin?  Maybe if you are high enough you will hear the voice of God.  Or it could be your mind thinking it hears God, but what difference does it make?
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« Reply #155 on: May 08, 2013, 08:33:14 PM »

Lulz
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