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Author Topic: Demetrios Kydones and the Reformation  (Read 502 times) Average Rating: 0
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Luckster
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« on: April 01, 2013, 09:35:02 PM »

Yesterday was St. Gregory Palamas. In order to prepare for the feast, I decided to do some research on the Archbishop. It turns out that one of his worst critics was a former Orthodox, later Catholic theologian named Demetrios Kydones. Kydones wrote several dissertations about why the Empire should "return" to the Papacy. Among them was a statement from Apologia which he describes the "final authority" argument still used by Catholics to this day. But, what he touches on indirectly references the Protestant Reformation:

Quote
Would not every matter of faith have to end with a question mark if there indeed be no final seat of authority in the Church? There can be no certitude anywhere, if none is worthy of credibility. Then we are no longer talking about the religion which St. Paul described as one; rather there will be as many religions as there are leaders, or worse still, none at all! Every believer will suspect everyone else and will proceed to pick and choose whatever belief suits him. Then, as in a battle fought in the dark, we will be striking at our own friends, and they at us. How the non-believers will enjoy our antics, because we Christians are now engaged in endless bickering among ourselves, since none of us wants to concede anything to anyone else.

The bolded sections are truly prophetic when you consider that the 15th and 16th centuries devolved Europe into a series of religious wars. Thankfully, as Orthodox Christians, we know how to answer this questions, but, to date, Protestants do not.
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Jason.Wike
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2013, 10:36:13 PM »

How do Orthodox answer it? It seems it is still a problem. For many things there is a "Slavic tradition" answer as well as a "Greek tradition" answer, if not also a Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopian other ones... which evidences that they are not Apostolic tradition, which is one, but something later.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2013, 01:53:04 AM »

Yesterday was St. Gregory Palamas. In order to prepare for the feast, I decided to do some research on the Archbishop. It turns out that one of his worst critics was a former Orthodox, later Catholic theologian named Demetrios Kydones. Kydones wrote several dissertations about why the Empire should "return" to the Papacy. Among them was a statement from Apologia which he describes the "final authority" argument still used by Catholics to this day. But, what he touches on indirectly references the Protestant Reformation:

Quote
Would not every matter of faith have to end with a question mark if there indeed be no final seat of authority in the Church? There can be no certitude anywhere, if none is worthy of credibility. Then we are no longer talking about the religion which St. Paul described as one; rather there will be as many religions as there are leaders, or worse still, none at all! Every believer will suspect everyone else and will proceed to pick and choose whatever belief suits him. Then, as in a battle fought in the dark, we will be striking at our own friends, and they at us. How the non-believers will enjoy our antics, because we Christians are now engaged in endless bickering among ourselves, since none of us wants to concede anything to anyone else.

The bolded sections are truly prophetic when you consider that the 15th and 16th centuries devolved Europe into a series of religious wars. Thankfully, as Orthodox Christians, we know how to answer this questions, but, to date, Protestants do not.
1324 - 1398?
Which pope did he pick?

He should have known better.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2013, 01:53:04 AM »

How do Orthodox answer it? It seems it is still a problem. For many things there is a "Slavic tradition" answer as well as a "Greek tradition" answer, if not also a Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopian other ones... which evidences that they are not Apostolic tradition, which is one, but something later.
in dogma there is no tradition, only Tradition.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2013, 07:25:05 AM »

Dimitrios Kydonis was the one who translated the Summa Theologica into Greek, right?
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2013, 07:37:25 AM »

How do Orthodox answer it? It seems it is still a problem. For many things there is a "Slavic tradition" answer as well as a "Greek tradition" answer, if not also a Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopian other ones... which evidences that they are not Apostolic tradition, which is one, but something later.

There are differing traditions within Orthodoxy regarding Church praxis (frequency of confession and communion, whether beer is permissible on "no wine" days, whether Matins should be said prior to Divine Liturgy or combined with Vespers, etc.), but not concerning dogmatic belief.  The differences in local traditions concerning Church praxis are not a problem for the Orthodox.  They just choose a spiritual father and follow what guidance he gives them without judging those whose practices differ. 
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2013, 08:59:15 AM »

Some reported that, late in life, Kydones considered returning to Orthodoxy as he found the Catholic communion less unified than he expected.
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 08:49:52 AM »

Some reported that, late in life, Kydones considered returning to Orthodoxy as he found the Catholic communion less unified than he expected.

Do you have those reports, sources?
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