OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 23, 2014, 06:35:18 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Sin promoted in the Ladder of Divine Ascent?  (Read 1770 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 3,709


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« on: April 01, 2013, 12:08:20 AM »

While once again reading through The Ladder of Divine Ascent.....  my blood began to boil.

4:121, "It is better to sin against God than against our father"

Though a monk owes loyalty to his abbot, this seems like completely disastrous advice. This seems like idolatry, as one would hold a man more important than God.   

As we were commanded "Thou shalt have no God before me".   

I can't imagine anything worse than sinning against God.... How on Earth could this book/text be read aloud and given so much credence promoting that a sin against a man is worse than a sin against God? 

Is this book not promoting a sin itself, in placing the importance of man in front of God - thus breaking the first commandment?



Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,116


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2013, 12:11:01 AM »

While once again reading through The Ladder of Divine Ascent.....  my blood began to boil.

4:121, "It is better to sin against God than against our father"

Though a monk owes loyalty to his abbot, this seems like completely disastrous advice. This seems like idolatry, as one would hold a man more important than God.   

As we were commanded "Thou shalt have no God before me".   

I can't imagine anything worse than sinning against God.... How on Earth could this book/text be read aloud and given so much credence promoting that a sin against a man is worse than a sin against God? 

Is this book not promoting a sin itself, in placing the importance of man in front of God - thus breaking the first commandment?





I would be interested in seeing what the original text (Greek?) says before jumping to conclusions.
Logged
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 3,709


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2013, 12:15:20 AM »

While once again reading through The Ladder of Divine Ascent.....  my blood began to boil.

4:121, "It is better to sin against God than against our father"

Though a monk owes loyalty to his abbot, this seems like completely disastrous advice. This seems like idolatry, as one would hold a man more important than God.   

As we were commanded "Thou shalt have no God before me".   

I can't imagine anything worse than sinning against God.... How on Earth could this book/text be read aloud and given so much credence promoting that a sin against a man is worse than a sin against God? 

Is this book not promoting a sin itself, in placing the importance of man in front of God - thus breaking the first commandment?





I would be interested in seeing what the original text (Greek?) says before jumping to conclusions.

Good point LBK, I'd like to see it if anybody has it.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,949


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2013, 01:07:51 AM »

I think the context from which you pulled that line makes it fairly clear.  I don't think this is a translation issue.

St. John is basically implying that God is forgiving, whereas one's spiritual director may not be (as we know, this is written about a strict monastic rule).  Losing one's director can be very dangerous in this situation (beginners need prayer and guidance), and it must be avoided.  He says that the "father" can help correct and reconcile sins against God.  He never wrote that any man is more important than God; you just inferred that, almost certainly wrongly, from the passage.

But you're expected hyperbole and accusations aren't lost, yeshuaisiam.  It is an interesting comment, and I'm interested to read more commentary about it.

I'm more curious, however, as to why St. John prefaces his comment with "do not be surprised at what I am going to say (for I have Moses to support me)."
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 3,709


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2013, 01:11:30 PM »

I think the context from which you pulled that line makes it fairly clear.  I don't think this is a translation issue.

St. John is basically implying that God is forgiving, whereas one's spiritual director may not be (as we know, this is written about a strict monastic rule).  Losing one's director can be very dangerous in this situation (beginners need prayer and guidance), and it must be avoided.  He says that the "father" can help correct and reconcile sins against God.  He never wrote that any man is more important than God; you just inferred that, almost certainly wrongly, from the passage.

But you're expected hyperbole and accusations aren't lost, yeshuaisiam.  It is an interesting comment, and I'm interested to read more commentary about it.

I'm more curious, however, as to why St. John prefaces his comment with "do not be surprised at what I am going to say (for I have Moses to support me)."

Well yes...  it wasn't stated that a man was more important than God directly.   In the context though, I can't imagine it being worse to sin against a man period.

I would always consider that anything AGAINST God, would be far worse than anything against man.  Being Orthodox for many years, I also DO believe that Orthodox Christians would consider a sin against God worse than man.

This quote was just disturbing, and I believe most EO would find it disturbing as well.   Of course, this is in recognition that the book doesn't speak for the church itself.... So there is no challenge here.... More like I'm curious if this is completely erroneous - or - if other Orthodox Christians would agree that this should be looked at.

Would love to see the Greek.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Michał Kalina
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,465


WWW
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2013, 01:15:14 PM »

I think many Orthodox do not distinguish between "worse" and "better" sins.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Asteriktos
Protostrator
***************
Offline Offline

Faith: Like an arrow to the knee
Posts: 27,307


Happy 450th birthday, Mr. Shakespeare!


« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2013, 01:26:11 PM »

I think many Orthodox do not distinguish between "worse" and "better" sins.

Theological illiteracy shouldn't play a part here.
Logged
Cyrillic
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow
Posts: 7,970


The Reactionary Rebel


WWW
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2013, 01:27:29 PM »

He who sins against his father sins against God as well.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 01:39:32 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo

"Se vogliamo che tutto rimanga come è, bisogna che tutto cambi."
-G.T di Lampedusa

'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
jah777
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,605


« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2013, 01:42:21 PM »

You think St. John is promoting sin through these words?  You would have to ignore the words which immediately follow the ones you quoted in order to come to that conclusion.

Quote
It is better to sin against God than against our father; for when we anger God, our director can reconcile us; but when he is incensed against us, there is no one to propitiate him for us. But it seems to me that both cases amount to the same thing.

Do these very words not perfectly address the question?
Logged
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,905



« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2013, 01:42:38 PM »

Μὴ θαμβηθῇς, ἐφ᾿ ᾧ μέλλω λέγειν· Μωϋσῆν γὰρ ἔχω συνήγορον· συμφέρον εἰς Θεὸν, καὶ μὴ εἰς πατέρα ἡμῶν ἁμαρτῆσαι· Θεοῦ μὲν γὰρ παροργισθέντος, ὁ ἡμῶν ὁδηγὸς καταλλάξαι αὐτὸν πρὸς ὑμᾶς δύναται, τούτου δὲ ὑφ᾿ ἡμῶν παραχθέντος, τινὰ τὸν ἐξιλεούμενον λοιπὸν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν οὐκ ἔχομεν. Ἐμοὶ δὲ δοκεῖ εἰς μίαν δόξαν ἀνατρέχειν τὰ ἀμφότερα.

My off the cuff translation:

”Do not be baffled by what I am going to say: I have Moses to support me. It is better (easier to forgive?) to sin against God and not against our Father. If God is angered, our Guide is able to reconcile him with us, but if we cause the latter to be angry with us, we have no one to atone (appease Him) for us. It seems to me that both [offences] are reducible to one.”

The modern Greek paraphrasis explains that both offences (angering God and angering the Elder) are equally serious, because the Elder is the antiprosopos of God: cf. Exodus 7:1 ”And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made you a god (δέδωκά σε θεὸν) to Pharaoh”.

(In my edition - Hiera Mone Paraklitou, Oropos Attikes, 2009, this is Chapter 4 - On obedience, no.126).

 

 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 02:03:00 PM by Romaios » Logged
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,905



« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2013, 01:59:49 PM »

There is the following scholion by Archimandrite Ignatios (the editor of the referenced edition) to explain this:

"When the Israelites angered God, they were saved by the intercession of Moses (Ex. 32, 1-14). But when Kore, Dathan and Abiron rebelled against Moses, they could not escape the punishment of God, because there was no one to intercede (Numbers 16)." 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 02:00:07 PM by Romaios » Logged
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,949


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2013, 02:30:17 PM »

Thanks very much for your translation, Romaios, and particularly the bits explaining the Moses reference.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 3,709


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2013, 12:18:49 AM »

I think many Orthodox do not distinguish between "worse" and "better" sins.

Theological illiteracy shouldn't play a part here.

Well that's what the book says and it's Orthodox. ?  That's why I'm asking.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 3,709


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2013, 12:33:03 AM »

You think St. John is promoting sin through these words?  You would have to ignore the words which immediately follow the ones you quoted in order to come to that conclusion.

Quote
It is better to sin against God than against our father; for when we anger God, our director can reconcile us; but when he is incensed against us, there is no one to propitiate him for us. But it seems to me that both cases amount to the same thing.

Do these very words not perfectly address the question?

Absolutely not.

Unless you think a ticked off abbot/priest is worse than God that was angry with you and reconciled.   Wouldn't your rather have a man angry with you than to sin against God and have to be reconciled?

The man didn't create you and the entire universe, God did.  The man can't part the sea, God did....

So the message I'm seeing here is:
1) It is better to sin against God than the priest/abbot, which directly would mean that the abbot/priest is just as "important (or greater)" as God.  (Which is idolatry)
and/or
2) God is incapable of reconciling with a person without an abbot/priest.

Also where should we assume that God can't propitate and abbot/priest for us?  (it states no one)

I dunno I guess I could only assume that most Eastern Orthodox Christians would rather have their priest/abbot mad at them, than to make God mad at them (to be reconciled by a priest).   That's why I'm confused by the passage in this book.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 3,709


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2013, 12:46:18 AM »

Μὴ θαμβηθῇς, ἐφ᾿ ᾧ μέλλω λέγειν· Μωϋσῆν γὰρ ἔχω συνήγορον· συμφέρον εἰς Θεὸν, καὶ μὴ εἰς πατέρα ἡμῶν ἁμαρτῆσαι· Θεοῦ μὲν γὰρ παροργισθέντος, ὁ ἡμῶν ὁδηγὸς καταλλάξαι αὐτὸν πρὸς ὑμᾶς δύναται, τούτου δὲ ὑφ᾿ ἡμῶν παραχθέντος, τινὰ τὸν ἐξιλεούμενον λοιπὸν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν οὐκ ἔχομεν. Ἐμοὶ δὲ δοκεῖ εἰς μίαν δόξαν ἀνατρέχειν τὰ ἀμφότερα.

My off the cuff translation:

”Do not be baffled by what I am going to say: I have Moses to support me. It is better (easier to forgive?) to sin against God and not against our Father. If God is angered, our Guide is able to reconcile him with us, but if we cause the latter to be angry with us, we have no one to atone (appease Him) for us. It seems to me that both [offences] are reducible to one.”

The modern Greek paraphrasis explains that both offences (angering God and angering the Elder) are equally serious, because the Elder is the antiprosopos of God: cf. Exodus 7:1 ”And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made you a god (δέδωκά σε θεὸν) to Pharaoh”.

(In my edition - Hiera Mone Paraklitou, Oropos Attikes, 2009, this is Chapter 4 - On obedience, no.126).

 

 

Thank you very much for the translation!!!

The paraphrasis explanation is exactly what I was upset about Sad

As a sin against an elder could never be equal to a sin against God...
This would seem to bring an elder up to God status, not just the status of Moses over Pharoah. 

On further research of this passage (GOOGLE  Cry)  I found an excerpt of a monk that was sexually abused by his abbot part using this passage.  Disgusting.  Of course I know all of Orthodox condemns it... just sad.  I guess that's part of the problem as it makes the abbot seem like God.

Again, I respect the book, this excerpt throws me through loops.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,905



« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2013, 02:25:57 AM »

The paraphrasis explanation is exactly what I was upset about Sad

As a sin against an elder could never be equal to a sin against God...
This would seem to bring an elder up to God status, not just the status of Moses over Pharoah. 

On further research of this passage (GOOGLE  Cry)  I found an excerpt of a monk that was sexually abused by his abbot part using this passage.  Disgusting.  Of course I know all of Orthodox condemns it... just sad.  I guess that's part of the problem as it makes the abbot seem like God.

Again, I respect the book, this excerpt throws me through loops.

Well, long before that passage, there is this one:

Quote
When motives of humility and real longing for salvation decide us to bend our neck and entrust ourselves to another in the Lord, before entering upon this life, if there is any vice and pride in us, we ought first to question and examine, and even, so to speak, test our helmsman, so as not to mistake the sailor for the pilot, a sick man for a doctor, a passionate for a dispassionate man, the sea for a harbour, and so bring about the speedy shipwreck of our soul. But when once we have entered the arena of religion and obedience we must no longer judge our good manager in any way at all, even though we may perhaps see in him some slight failings, since he is only human. Otherwise, by sitting in judgment we shall get no profit from our subjection.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent IV, 6.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 02:27:19 AM by Romaios » Logged
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,905



« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2013, 03:41:18 AM »

As a sin against an elder could never be equal to a sin against God...
This would seem to bring an elder up to God status, not just the status of Moses over Pharoah.  

You seem to have the mind of Korah:

Quote from: Numbers 16:1-4; 23-50
Now Korah son of Izhar son of Kohath son of Levi, along with Dathan and Abiram sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—descendants of Reuben—took two hundred fifty Israelite men, leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men,a and they confronted Moses. They assembled against Moses and against Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone too far! All the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them. So why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?” When Moses heard it, he fell on his face. (...)

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 24 Say to the congregation: Get away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. 25 So Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram; the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He said to the congregation, “Turn away from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, or you will be swept away for all their sins.” 27 So they got away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the entrance of their tents, together with their wives, their children, and their little ones. 28 And Moses said, “This is how you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works; it has not been of my own accord: 29 If these people die a natural death, or if a natural fate comes on them, then the Lord has not sent me. 30 But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up, with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.”
31 As soon as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them was split apart. 32 The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with their households—everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. 33 So they with all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. 34 All Israel around them fled at their outcry, for they said, “The earth will swallow us too!” 35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred fifty men offering the incense.
36c Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 37 Tell Eleazar son of Aaron the priest to take the censers out of the blaze; then scatter the fire far and wide. 38 For the censers of these sinners have become holy at the cost of their lives. Make them into hammered plates as a covering for the altar, for they presented them before the Lord and they became holy. Thus they shall be a sign to the Israelites. 39 So Eleazar the priest took the bronze censers that had been presented by those who were burned; and they were hammered out as a covering for the altar—40 a reminder to the Israelites that no outsider, who is not of the descendants of Aaron, shall approach to offer incense before the Lord, so as not to become like Korah and his company—just as the Lord had said to him through Moses.
41 On the next day, however, the whole congregation of the Israelites rebelled against Moses and against Aaron, saying, “You have killed the people of the Lord.” 42 And when the congregation had assembled against them, Moses and Aaron turned toward the tent of meeting; the cloud had covered it and the glory of the Lord appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 45 “Get away from this congregation, so that I may consume them in a moment.” And they fell on their faces. 46 Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer, put fire on it from the altar and lay incense on it, and carry it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them. For wrath has gone out from the Lord; the plague has begun.” 47 So Aaron took it as Moses had ordered, and ran into the middle of the assembly, where the plague had already begun among the people. He put on the incense, and made atonement for the people. 48 He stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stopped. 49 Those who died by the plague were fourteen thousand seven hundred, besides those who died in the affair of Korah. 50 When the plague was stopped, Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance of the tent of meeting.

And if you think things changed in the New Testament, how do you explain the death of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5? They must have thought that deceiving the Apostles was no offence against God. Yet Peter said: "Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? (...) You did not lie to us but to God!” (So the Apostles were the antiprosopoi of God.)

This is also interesting:

Quote from: Numbers 12:1-15
While they were at Hazeroth, Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had indeed married a Cushite woman); and they said, “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?” And the Lord heard it. Now the man Moses was very humble, more so than anyone else on the face of the earth. Suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, “Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them came out. Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward.

And he said, “Hear my words: When there are prophets among you, I the Lord make myself known to them in visions; I speak to them in dreams. Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house. With him I speak face to face—clearly, not in riddles; and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them, and he departed.

When the cloud went away from over the tent, Miriam had become leprous, as white as snow. And Aaron turned towards Miriam and saw that she was leprous. Then Aaron said to Moses, “Oh, my lord, do not punish usc for a sin that we have so foolishly committed. Do not let her be like one stillborn, whose flesh is half consumed when it comes out of its mother’s womb.” And Moses cried to the Lord, “O God, please heal her.” But the Lord said to Moses, “If her father had but spit in her face, would she not bear her shame for seven days? Let her be shut out of the camp for seven days, and after that she may be brought in again.” So Miriam was shut out of the camp for seven days; and the people did not set out on the march until Miriam had been brought in again.

Quote from: 4 Kings 2:23-25
[Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!” When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 04:15:14 AM by Romaios » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,629



« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2013, 12:19:55 PM »

As a sin against an elder could never be equal to a sin against God...
This would seem to bring an elder up to God status, not just the status of Moses over Pharoah.  

You seem to have the mind of Korah:

Quote from: Numbers 16:1-4; 23-50
Now Korah son of Izhar son of Kohath son of Levi, along with Dathan and Abiram sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—descendants of Reuben—took two hundred fifty Israelite men, leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men,a and they confronted Moses. They assembled against Moses and against Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone too far! All the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them. So why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?” When Moses heard it, he fell on his face. (...)

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 24 Say to the congregation: Get away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. 25 So Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram; the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He said to the congregation, “Turn away from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, or you will be swept away for all their sins.” 27 So they got away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the entrance of their tents, together with their wives, their children, and their little ones. 28 And Moses said, “This is how you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works; it has not been of my own accord: 29 If these people die a natural death, or if a natural fate comes on them, then the Lord has not sent me. 30 But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up, with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.”
31 As soon as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them was split apart. 32 The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with their households—everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. 33 So they with all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. 34 All Israel around them fled at their outcry, for they said, “The earth will swallow us too!” 35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred fifty men offering the incense.
36c Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 37 Tell Eleazar son of Aaron the priest to take the censers out of the blaze; then scatter the fire far and wide. 38 For the censers of these sinners have become holy at the cost of their lives. Make them into hammered plates as a covering for the altar, for they presented them before the Lord and they became holy. Thus they shall be a sign to the Israelites. 39 So Eleazar the priest took the bronze censers that had been presented by those who were burned; and they were hammered out as a covering for the altar—40 a reminder to the Israelites that no outsider, who is not of the descendants of Aaron, shall approach to offer incense before the Lord, so as not to become like Korah and his company—just as the Lord had said to him through Moses.
41 On the next day, however, the whole congregation of the Israelites rebelled against Moses and against Aaron, saying, “You have killed the people of the Lord.” 42 And when the congregation had assembled against them, Moses and Aaron turned toward the tent of meeting; the cloud had covered it and the glory of the Lord appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 45 “Get away from this congregation, so that I may consume them in a moment.” And they fell on their faces. 46 Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer, put fire on it from the altar and lay incense on it, and carry it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them. For wrath has gone out from the Lord; the plague has begun.” 47 So Aaron took it as Moses had ordered, and ran into the middle of the assembly, where the plague had already begun among the people. He put on the incense, and made atonement for the people. 48 He stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stopped. 49 Those who died by the plague were fourteen thousand seven hundred, besides those who died in the affair of Korah. 50 When the plague was stopped, Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance of the tent of meeting.

And if you think things changed in the New Testament, how do you explain the death of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5? They must have thought that deceiving the Apostles was no offence against God. Yet Peter said: "Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? (...) You did not lie to us but to God!” (So the Apostles were the antiprosopoi of God.)

This is also interesting:

Quote from: Numbers 12:1-15
While they were at Hazeroth, Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had indeed married a Cushite woman); and they said, “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?” And the Lord heard it. Now the man Moses was very humble, more so than anyone else on the face of the earth. Suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, “Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them came out. Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward.

And he said, “Hear my words: When there are prophets among you, I the Lord make myself known to them in visions; I speak to them in dreams. Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house. With him I speak face to face—clearly, not in riddles; and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them, and he departed.

When the cloud went away from over the tent, Miriam had become leprous, as white as snow. And Aaron turned towards Miriam and saw that she was leprous. Then Aaron said to Moses, “Oh, my lord, do not punish usc for a sin that we have so foolishly committed. Do not let her be like one stillborn, whose flesh is half consumed when it comes out of its mother’s womb.” And Moses cried to the Lord, “O God, please heal her.” But the Lord said to Moses, “If her father had but spit in her face, would she not bear her shame for seven days? Let her be shut out of the camp for seven days, and after that she may be brought in again.” So Miriam was shut out of the camp for seven days; and the people did not set out on the march until Miriam had been brought in again.

Quote from: 4 Kings 2:23-25
[Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!” When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

LOL.  My godson (an adult) says that last story should be in all the children's Bibles.

The one before it I always bring up when this idea of sainthood equaling people to God comes up (esp. among Protestants).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 3,709


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2013, 07:48:49 PM »

As a sin against an elder could never be equal to a sin against God...
This would seem to bring an elder up to God status, not just the status of Moses over Pharoah.  

You seem to have the mind of Korah:

Quote from: Numbers 16:1-4; 23-50
Now Korah son of Izhar son of Kohath son of Levi, along with Dathan and Abiram sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—descendants of Reuben—took two hundred fifty Israelite men, leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men,a and they confronted Moses. They assembled against Moses and against Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone too far! All the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them. So why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?” When Moses heard it, he fell on his face. (...)

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 24 Say to the congregation: Get away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. 25 So Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram; the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He said to the congregation, “Turn away from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, or you will be swept away for all their sins.” 27 So they got away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the entrance of their tents, together with their wives, their children, and their little ones. 28 And Moses said, “This is how you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works; it has not been of my own accord: 29 If these people die a natural death, or if a natural fate comes on them, then the Lord has not sent me. 30 But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up, with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.”
31 As soon as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them was split apart. 32 The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with their households—everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. 33 So they with all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. 34 All Israel around them fled at their outcry, for they said, “The earth will swallow us too!” 35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred fifty men offering the incense.
36c Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 37 Tell Eleazar son of Aaron the priest to take the censers out of the blaze; then scatter the fire far and wide. 38 For the censers of these sinners have become holy at the cost of their lives. Make them into hammered plates as a covering for the altar, for they presented them before the Lord and they became holy. Thus they shall be a sign to the Israelites. 39 So Eleazar the priest took the bronze censers that had been presented by those who were burned; and they were hammered out as a covering for the altar—40 a reminder to the Israelites that no outsider, who is not of the descendants of Aaron, shall approach to offer incense before the Lord, so as not to become like Korah and his company—just as the Lord had said to him through Moses.
41 On the next day, however, the whole congregation of the Israelites rebelled against Moses and against Aaron, saying, “You have killed the people of the Lord.” 42 And when the congregation had assembled against them, Moses and Aaron turned toward the tent of meeting; the cloud had covered it and the glory of the Lord appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 45 “Get away from this congregation, so that I may consume them in a moment.” And they fell on their faces. 46 Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer, put fire on it from the altar and lay incense on it, and carry it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them. For wrath has gone out from the Lord; the plague has begun.” 47 So Aaron took it as Moses had ordered, and ran into the middle of the assembly, where the plague had already begun among the people. He put on the incense, and made atonement for the people. 48 He stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stopped. 49 Those who died by the plague were fourteen thousand seven hundred, besides those who died in the affair of Korah. 50 When the plague was stopped, Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance of the tent of meeting.

And if you think things changed in the New Testament, how do you explain the death of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5? They must have thought that deceiving the Apostles was no offence against God. Yet Peter said: "Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? (...) You did not lie to us but to God!” (So the Apostles were the antiprosopoi of God.)

This is also interesting:

Quote from: Numbers 12:1-15
While they were at Hazeroth, Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had indeed married a Cushite woman); and they said, “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?” And the Lord heard it. Now the man Moses was very humble, more so than anyone else on the face of the earth. Suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, “Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them came out. Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward.

And he said, “Hear my words: When there are prophets among you, I the Lord make myself known to them in visions; I speak to them in dreams. Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house. With him I speak face to face—clearly, not in riddles; and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them, and he departed.

When the cloud went away from over the tent, Miriam had become leprous, as white as snow. And Aaron turned towards Miriam and saw that she was leprous. Then Aaron said to Moses, “Oh, my lord, do not punish usc for a sin that we have so foolishly committed. Do not let her be like one stillborn, whose flesh is half consumed when it comes out of its mother’s womb.” And Moses cried to the Lord, “O God, please heal her.” But the Lord said to Moses, “If her father had but spit in her face, would she not bear her shame for seven days? Let her be shut out of the camp for seven days, and after that she may be brought in again.” So Miriam was shut out of the camp for seven days; and the people did not set out on the march until Miriam had been brought in again.

Quote from: 4 Kings 2:23-25
[Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!” When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.


I'm trying to get your point, but the explanation seems to steer away from the subject matter a bit.   Though the book in previously describes the abbot/priest as only human, later it describes that it is better to sin against God than him.   Huh

better to sin against God than a human.

Seems exalting to a human above God.

Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2013, 08:07:52 PM »

As a sin against an elder could never be equal to a sin against God...
This would seem to bring an elder up to God status, not just the status of Moses over Pharoah.  

You seem to have the mind of Korah:

Quote from: Numbers 16:1-4; 23-50
Now Korah son of Izhar son of Kohath son of Levi, along with Dathan and Abiram sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—descendants of Reuben—took two hundred fifty Israelite men, leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men,a and they confronted Moses. They assembled against Moses and against Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone too far! All the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them. So why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?” When Moses heard it, he fell on his face. (...)

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 24 Say to the congregation: Get away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. 25 So Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram; the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He said to the congregation, “Turn away from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, or you will be swept away for all their sins.” 27 So they got away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the entrance of their tents, together with their wives, their children, and their little ones. 28 And Moses said, “This is how you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works; it has not been of my own accord: 29 If these people die a natural death, or if a natural fate comes on them, then the Lord has not sent me. 30 But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up, with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.”
31 As soon as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them was split apart. 32 The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with their households—everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. 33 So they with all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. 34 All Israel around them fled at their outcry, for they said, “The earth will swallow us too!” 35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred fifty men offering the incense.
36c Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 37 Tell Eleazar son of Aaron the priest to take the censers out of the blaze; then scatter the fire far and wide. 38 For the censers of these sinners have become holy at the cost of their lives. Make them into hammered plates as a covering for the altar, for they presented them before the Lord and they became holy. Thus they shall be a sign to the Israelites. 39 So Eleazar the priest took the bronze censers that had been presented by those who were burned; and they were hammered out as a covering for the altar—40 a reminder to the Israelites that no outsider, who is not of the descendants of Aaron, shall approach to offer incense before the Lord, so as not to become like Korah and his company—just as the Lord had said to him through Moses.
41 On the next day, however, the whole congregation of the Israelites rebelled against Moses and against Aaron, saying, “You have killed the people of the Lord.” 42 And when the congregation had assembled against them, Moses and Aaron turned toward the tent of meeting; the cloud had covered it and the glory of the Lord appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 45 “Get away from this congregation, so that I may consume them in a moment.” And they fell on their faces. 46 Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer, put fire on it from the altar and lay incense on it, and carry it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them. For wrath has gone out from the Lord; the plague has begun.” 47 So Aaron took it as Moses had ordered, and ran into the middle of the assembly, where the plague had already begun among the people. He put on the incense, and made atonement for the people. 48 He stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stopped. 49 Those who died by the plague were fourteen thousand seven hundred, besides those who died in the affair of Korah. 50 When the plague was stopped, Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance of the tent of meeting.

And if you think things changed in the New Testament, how do you explain the death of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5? They must have thought that deceiving the Apostles was no offence against God. Yet Peter said: "Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? (...) You did not lie to us but to God!” (So the Apostles were the antiprosopoi of God.)

This is also interesting:

Quote from: Numbers 12:1-15
While they were at Hazeroth, Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had indeed married a Cushite woman); and they said, “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?” And the Lord heard it. Now the man Moses was very humble, more so than anyone else on the face of the earth. Suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, “Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them came out. Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward.

And he said, “Hear my words: When there are prophets among you, I the Lord make myself known to them in visions; I speak to them in dreams. Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house. With him I speak face to face—clearly, not in riddles; and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them, and he departed.

When the cloud went away from over the tent, Miriam had become leprous, as white as snow. And Aaron turned towards Miriam and saw that she was leprous. Then Aaron said to Moses, “Oh, my lord, do not punish usc for a sin that we have so foolishly committed. Do not let her be like one stillborn, whose flesh is half consumed when it comes out of its mother’s womb.” And Moses cried to the Lord, “O God, please heal her.” But the Lord said to Moses, “If her father had but spit in her face, would she not bear her shame for seven days? Let her be shut out of the camp for seven days, and after that she may be brought in again.” So Miriam was shut out of the camp for seven days; and the people did not set out on the march until Miriam had been brought in again.

Quote from: 4 Kings 2:23-25
[Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!” When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.


I'm trying to get your point, but the explanation seems to steer away from the subject matter a bit. 



I hope you are not trying hard, because the point is very clear. And the explanation is thorough and to the point.

Really, he is using your ol' tyme religion to explain to you the problem.

So what gives?
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 3,709


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2013, 06:27:41 PM »

As a sin against an elder could never be equal to a sin against God...
This would seem to bring an elder up to God status, not just the status of Moses over Pharoah.  

You seem to have the mind of Korah:

Quote from: Numbers 16:1-4; 23-50
Now Korah son of Izhar son of Kohath son of Levi, along with Dathan and Abiram sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—descendants of Reuben—took two hundred fifty Israelite men, leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men,a and they confronted Moses. They assembled against Moses and against Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone too far! All the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them. So why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?” When Moses heard it, he fell on his face. (...)

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 24 Say to the congregation: Get away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. 25 So Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram; the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He said to the congregation, “Turn away from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, or you will be swept away for all their sins.” 27 So they got away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the entrance of their tents, together with their wives, their children, and their little ones. 28 And Moses said, “This is how you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works; it has not been of my own accord: 29 If these people die a natural death, or if a natural fate comes on them, then the Lord has not sent me. 30 But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up, with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.”
31 As soon as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them was split apart. 32 The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with their households—everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. 33 So they with all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. 34 All Israel around them fled at their outcry, for they said, “The earth will swallow us too!” 35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred fifty men offering the incense.
36c Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 37 Tell Eleazar son of Aaron the priest to take the censers out of the blaze; then scatter the fire far and wide. 38 For the censers of these sinners have become holy at the cost of their lives. Make them into hammered plates as a covering for the altar, for they presented them before the Lord and they became holy. Thus they shall be a sign to the Israelites. 39 So Eleazar the priest took the bronze censers that had been presented by those who were burned; and they were hammered out as a covering for the altar—40 a reminder to the Israelites that no outsider, who is not of the descendants of Aaron, shall approach to offer incense before the Lord, so as not to become like Korah and his company—just as the Lord had said to him through Moses.
41 On the next day, however, the whole congregation of the Israelites rebelled against Moses and against Aaron, saying, “You have killed the people of the Lord.” 42 And when the congregation had assembled against them, Moses and Aaron turned toward the tent of meeting; the cloud had covered it and the glory of the Lord appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 45 “Get away from this congregation, so that I may consume them in a moment.” And they fell on their faces. 46 Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer, put fire on it from the altar and lay incense on it, and carry it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them. For wrath has gone out from the Lord; the plague has begun.” 47 So Aaron took it as Moses had ordered, and ran into the middle of the assembly, where the plague had already begun among the people. He put on the incense, and made atonement for the people. 48 He stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stopped. 49 Those who died by the plague were fourteen thousand seven hundred, besides those who died in the affair of Korah. 50 When the plague was stopped, Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance of the tent of meeting.

And if you think things changed in the New Testament, how do you explain the death of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5? They must have thought that deceiving the Apostles was no offence against God. Yet Peter said: "Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? (...) You did not lie to us but to God!” (So the Apostles were the antiprosopoi of God.)

This is also interesting:

Quote from: Numbers 12:1-15
While they were at Hazeroth, Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had indeed married a Cushite woman); and they said, “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?” And the Lord heard it. Now the man Moses was very humble, more so than anyone else on the face of the earth. Suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, “Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them came out. Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward.

And he said, “Hear my words: When there are prophets among you, I the Lord make myself known to them in visions; I speak to them in dreams. Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house. With him I speak face to face—clearly, not in riddles; and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them, and he departed.

When the cloud went away from over the tent, Miriam had become leprous, as white as snow. And Aaron turned towards Miriam and saw that she was leprous. Then Aaron said to Moses, “Oh, my lord, do not punish usc for a sin that we have so foolishly committed. Do not let her be like one stillborn, whose flesh is half consumed when it comes out of its mother’s womb.” And Moses cried to the Lord, “O God, please heal her.” But the Lord said to Moses, “If her father had but spit in her face, would she not bear her shame for seven days? Let her be shut out of the camp for seven days, and after that she may be brought in again.” So Miriam was shut out of the camp for seven days; and the people did not set out on the march until Miriam had been brought in again.

Quote from: 4 Kings 2:23-25
[Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!” When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.


I'm trying to get your point, but the explanation seems to steer away from the subject matter a bit. 



I hope you are not trying hard, because the point is very clear. And the explanation is thorough and to the point.

Really, he is using your ol' tyme religion to explain to you the problem.

So what gives?

No it is not clear, and I am trying very hard to see the point. 

The subject matter of this thread deals with an excerpt in the ladder of divine ascent.  (not entirely the EO faith)

Romaios's explanation was to label my thinkig as Korah who accused Moses of exaltation for COMPLETELY different reasons.   It's a "scripture sound bite", which does not apply in the context of this passage from the book... AT ALL.  It's not dealing with sins against God vs. Man.

From Romaios's other quote he gives the explanation quote: The modern Greek paraphrasis explains that both offences (angering God and angering the Elder) are equally serious, because the Elder is the antiprosopos of God: cf. Exodus 7:1 ”And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made you a god (δέδωκά σε θεὸν) to Pharaoh”.

"A God to Pharaoh" is the explanation of a sin against God to be better than a sin against man?   Also his explanation used the words "equally serious", but the ladder of divine ascent uses the word "better" suggesting inequality. 

Next:  The story of a bear mauling the group of children..... Okay, but that doesn't explain anything of sins against God being better than a sin against man.  Now, let me put it into context of this twisted logic and WHY IT IS NOT CLEAR.   In his logic, I would compare the mauling of a bear when I sin against a man working for God.  Or you could be like Lot's wife and "look back" - when you sin against God.   Who made out better?   Mauled children or death?

Do any of you SERIOUSLY agree that:
It is better to sin against God than against your priest/abbot/man?

Anyway, I may just have to sharpie this part out of my book and leave it be.  Otherwise I do like it...  May be more simple.  Smiley
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,183



« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2013, 06:46:35 PM »

Yeshuaisiam--We are talking about this aren't we?

 "It is better to sin against God than against our father; for when we anger God, our director can reconcile us; but when he is incensed against us, there is no one to propitiate him for us. But it seems to me that both cases amount to the same thing."

Nothing in that passage rises to the level of dogma for Orthodox Christians. We do not substitute the above passage for the Orthodox approach to asking for the Lord's forgiveness and our reconciliation to Him and His Body, with which you must be familiar. Therefore, I just fail to see why it is that important to you.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,633


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2013, 06:53:36 PM »

Do any of you SERIOUSLY agree that:
It is better to sin against God than against your priest/abbot/man?
It is a statement of hyperbole referring to the functional consequences.

YiM,

Quote from: Exodus 7
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Quote from: Psalm 82
God standeth in the congregation of the gods; he judgeth among the gods... I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Quote from: Matthew 23
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Quote from: John 10
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Logged

"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."

-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 3,709


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2013, 11:30:41 PM »

Yeshuaisiam--We are talking about this aren't we?

 "It is better to sin against God than against our father; for when we anger God, our director can reconcile us; but when he is incensed against us, there is no one to propitiate him for us. But it seems to me that both cases amount to the same thing."

Nothing in that passage rises to the level of dogma for Orthodox Christians. We do not substitute the above passage for the Orthodox approach to asking for the Lord's forgiveness and our reconciliation to Him and His Body, with which you must be familiar. Therefore, I just fail to see why it is that important to you.

I agree with you in the fact that the Orthodox approach is to ask the Lord's forgiveness and reconciliation to him...   Absolutely no doubt about it.

I just found this excerpt in this book to be misleading, and places God in a box as well (as if God needs a director to reconcile us) and also that God doesn't "propitiate" a director (no one to propitiate)...    Also as the context read, and explanation of others here (it is equally as bad to sin against God as a director/abbot/priest) it is baffling.  I just found the excerpt to be erroneous to Eastern Orthodox understanding.

Fundamentally and at the root, Orthodox Christians worship God, hold God as the most important "everything" of the church.  To sin against God would be the worst thing you can do...   To sin against a director/abbot being worse, I can't imagine that.   

It's not a huge deal, just something I noticed.   I know this book is one of text that is admired, and it is a good book.... was taken back by it on this excerpt.

Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 3,709


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2013, 11:44:20 PM »

Do any of you SERIOUSLY agree that:
It is better to sin against God than against your priest/abbot/man?
It is a statement of hyperbole referring to the functional consequences.

YiM,

Quote from: Exodus 7
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Quote from: Psalm 82
God standeth in the congregation of the gods; he judgeth among the gods... I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Quote from: Matthew 23
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Quote from: John 10
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?



But he offered what you are calling a hyperbole saying "what I'm going to say to you must not shock you"...
Apparently, he was making an outrageous statement.

Also, this is a different subject, but some of the scriptures you excerpted, are the ones that gnostics (twist) use to convince others that you can "make yourself as God / exalted"....  These scriptures just don't explain exactly why it is better to sin against God than a man.  Of course, they don't also tell us that man can become God either (which I'm pretty sure you agree with)

Hopefully it was a hyperbole as you are saying.... But it sounds as if he was telling us "you can mess with God - because the abbot is here, but if you jack with the abbot, ain't nobody sticking up for you".   It sort of makes the abbot seem exalted, as it directly states "better to sin against God, than your director".

I dunno... I probably should just ignore it.   Just a few lines in the book.  I know the EO faith does not hold an abbot more important than God.  The excerpt just reads very strange to me.


Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2013, 02:00:05 AM »

"you can mess with God - because the abbot is here, but if you jack with the abbot, ain't nobody sticking up for you". 

Thus began YIM's foray into his paraphrase of the Ladder of Divine Ascent.

Very Messagey. I support your efforts.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,949


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2013, 03:27:44 AM »

"you can mess with God - because the abbot is here, but if you jack with the abbot, ain't nobody sticking up for you".

Thus began YIM's foray into his paraphrase of the Ladder of Divine Ascent.

Very Messagey. I support your efforts.

That's two guffaws in 24hrs.  Thanks again.

I know the EO faith does not hold an abbot more important than God.  The excerpt just reads very strange to me.


It may read strange, but I think you can rest assured that St. John does not hold abbots more important than God either.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but all sin is against God.  I don't think he's saying to direct sin towards God instead of people, but rather to avoid the further (not more important) ramifications of angering/alienating the director.  

Glancing at 1 Samuel 2:25, it doesn't seem to work well with St. John's advice, but I need to look into that further.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 03:30:03 AM by Cognomen » Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Shiny
Site Supporter
Banned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2013, 03:30:57 AM »

"you can mess with God - because the abbot is here, but if you jack with the abbot, ain't nobody sticking up for you".

Thus began YIM's foray into his paraphrase of the Ladder of Divine Ascent.

Very Messagey. I support your efforts.
If the Message is anything like the above I will have to get a copy.

I really want an idiomatic Bible that gets as close to pasadi as possible.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 03:33:41 AM by Achronos » Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,116


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2013, 03:50:43 AM »

"you can mess with God - because the abbot is here, but if you jack with the abbot, ain't nobody sticking up for you".

Thus began YIM's foray into his paraphrase of the Ladder of Divine Ascent.

Very Messagey. I support your efforts.
If the Message is anything like the above I will have to get a copy.

I really want an idiomatic Bible that gets as close to pasadi as possible.

Nah. Get yourself this one: http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Banned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2013, 03:51:49 AM »

"you can mess with God - because the abbot is here, but if you jack with the abbot, ain't nobody sticking up for you".

Thus began YIM's foray into his paraphrase of the Ladder of Divine Ascent.

Very Messagey. I support your efforts.
If the Message is anything like the above I will have to get a copy.

I really want an idiomatic Bible that gets as close to pasadi as possible.

Nah. Get yourself this one: http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
I can't stand that.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
TheTrisagion
Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of none
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,974



« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2013, 08:41:23 AM »

I have a copy of the Message.  I can only say that its "interpretations" of various passages leave me scratching my head.  I would say it is more of a commentary on Scripture from a post-modern perspective than an actual copy of Scripture.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,183



« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2013, 10:26:29 AM »

Yeshuaisiam--We are talking about this aren't we?

 "It is better to sin against God than against our father; for when we anger God, our director can reconcile us; but when he is incensed against us, there is no one to propitiate him for us. But it seems to me that both cases amount to the same thing."

Nothing in that passage rises to the level of dogma for Orthodox Christians. We do not substitute the above passage for the Orthodox approach to asking for the Lord's forgiveness and our reconciliation to Him and His Body, with which you must be familiar. Therefore, I just fail to see why it is that important to you.

I agree with you in the fact that the Orthodox approach is to ask the Lord's forgiveness and reconciliation to him...   Absolutely no doubt about it.

I just found this excerpt in this book to be misleading, and places God in a box as well (as if God needs a director to reconcile us) and also that God doesn't "propitiate" a director (no one to propitiate)...    Also as the context read, and explanation of others here (it is equally as bad to sin against God as a director/abbot/priest) it is baffling.  I just found the excerpt to be erroneous to Eastern Orthodox understanding.

Fundamentally and at the root, Orthodox Christians worship God, hold God as the most important "everything" of the church.  To sin against God would be the worst thing you can do...   To sin against a director/abbot being worse, I can't imagine that.   

It's not a huge deal, just something I noticed.   I know this book is one of text that is admired, and it is a good book.... was taken back by it on this excerpt.



I look at the Ladder as practical advice, a spiritual manual for to monastics. St John wrote it for both anchorites and those living in monasteries. As you may know, spiritual fathers (elders) are a cornerstone of monasticism. As you may also know, some people are so ashamed of their sins that they cannot face the Lord Himself and need an intermediary, somebody to propitiate for them. I see nothing odd here, in context. But, i would agree with you that the passage does seem odd in passing. However, after thorough examination and reflection, the bottom line is provided by St John himself: "both cases amount to the same thing."
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2013, 10:32:48 AM »

I have a copy of the Message.  I can only say that its "interpretations" of various passages leave me scratching my head.  I would say it is more of a commentary on Scripture from a post-modern perspective than an actual copy of Scripture.

For the 87th time. The Message is a translation. Not a paraphrase. It is certainly not "post-modern" in any sense a lay person would use the term.

It is humorous at times given its voice, but revelatory at times as well.

Highly recommended.

Eugene Peterson who did this version in English translation is a remarkable fellow. I've heard a couple interviews with him over the years and he always across as an extremely earnest, humble, and good humored fellow.

He has a trait which I cannot help find endearing in anyone. When asked any question, it is as if he is being asked it for the first time. He responds to questions with a childlike spontaneity and generosity.

I don't come from the evo background that thumped this version of the Bible. I first heard about it here from people mocking it. Hoping to find some humor, which I did, I also found more than a few interesting and helpful renderings into English of Scripture.

The Orthodox Jewish Bible is not recommended. The occasional googling of a verse or using it as your Bible for internet quoting gets 99% of the joy of that paraphrase.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,905



« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2013, 10:41:40 AM »

Hopefully it was a hyperbole as you are saying.... But it sounds as if he was telling us "you can mess with God - because the abbot is here, but if you jack with the abbot, ain't nobody sticking up for you".   It sort of makes the abbot seem exalted, as it directly states "better to sin against God, than your director".

I dunno... I probably should just ignore it.   Just a few lines in the book.  I know the EO faith does not hold an abbot more important than God.  The excerpt just reads very strange to me.

It's all about infallible ("immortal") obedience, not about infallible authority - St. John illustrates this point well with the story of Akakios (Chapter 4, 110):

Quote
I will not be silent about something which it is not right to leave in silence, lest I should inhumanly keep to myself what ought to be made known. The famous John the Sabbaite told me things worth hearing. And that he was detached and above all falsehood, and free from words and deeds of evil, you know from your experience, holy father. This man told me:

"In my monastery in Asia (for that is where the good man came from), there was a certain elder who was extremely careless and dissolute. I say this without passing judgment on him, but simply to state the truth. He obtained, I do not know how, a disciple, a youth called Akakios, simple-hearted but prudent in thought. And he endured so much from this elder, that to many people it will perhaps seem incredible. For the elder tormented him daily, not only with insults and indignities, but even with blows. But his patience was not mere senseless endurance.

And so, seeing him daily in wretched plight like the lowest slave, I would ask him when I met him: 'What is the matter, Brother Akakios, how are you today?' And he would at once show me a black eye, or a scarred neck or head. But knowing that he was a worker, I would say to him: 'Well done, well done; endure and it will be for your good.'

Having spent nine years with this pitiless elder, he departed to the Lord. Five days after his burial in the cemetery of the fathers, Akakios’s master went to a certain great elder living there and said to him: 'Father, Brother Akakios is dead.'

As soon as the elder heard this, he said: 'Believe me, elder, I do not believe it.'

The other replied: 'Come and see.'

The elder at once rose and went to the cemetery with the master of the blessed athlete. And he called as to a living person to him who was truly alive in his falling asleep, and said: 'Are you dead, Brother Akakios?'

And the good doer of obedience, showing his obedience even after his death, replied to the great elder: 'How is it possible, Father, for a man who is a doer of obedience to die?'

Then the elder who had been Akakios’ master became terrified and fell on his face in tears. Afterwards he asked the abbot of the Lavra for a cell near the tomb, and lived in it devoutly, always saying to the fathers: 'I have committed murder.’"

And it seemed to me, Father John that the one who spoke to the dead man was the great John himself. For that blessed soul told me another story as if it were about someone else, when it was really about himself, as I was afterwards able to learn for certain.

Source
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 10:48:39 AM by Romaios » Logged
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 1,955



« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2013, 10:54:57 AM »

"you can mess with God - because the abbot is here, but if you jack with the abbot, ain't nobody sticking up for you".

Thus began YIM's foray into his paraphrase of the Ladder of Divine Ascent.

Very Messagey. I support your efforts.
If the Message is anything like the above I will have to get a copy.

I really want an idiomatic Bible that gets as close to pasadi as possible.

Nah. Get yourself this one: http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
I can't stand that.
Perhaps you would enjoy the Phat News of Mark?

http://www.logoschristian.org/mark/

Quote
Mark 1:
1. The phat[1] news of Jesus Christ,[2] the Son of God.
2. As it was written and prophesied:[3] “Behold, I send My seed camp,[4] who will setup a Welcome Home[5] before Him.”
3. “The voice of one focalizing[6] in the National Forest: ‘Get prepared for the coming of the Christ, get His main circle[7] ready
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 10:58:31 AM by Agabus » Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL ORTHODOX CHURCH
TheTrisagion
Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of none
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,974



« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2013, 12:10:23 PM »

I have a copy of the Message.  I can only say that its "interpretations" of various passages leave me scratching my head.  I would say it is more of a commentary on Scripture from a post-modern perspective than an actual copy of Scripture.

For the 87th time. The Message is a translation. Not a paraphrase. It is certainly not "post-modern" in any sense a lay person would use the term.

It is humorous at times given its voice, but revelatory at times as well.

Highly recommended.

Eugene Peterson who did this version in English translation is a remarkable fellow. I've heard a couple interviews with him over the years and he always across as an extremely earnest, humble, and good humored fellow.

He has a trait which I cannot help find endearing in anyone. When asked any question, it is as if he is being asked it for the first time. He responds to questions with a childlike spontaneity and generosity.

I don't come from the evo background that thumped this version of the Bible. I first heard about it here from people mocking it. Hoping to find some humor, which I did, I also found more than a few interesting and helpful renderings into English of Scripture.

The Orthodox Jewish Bible is not recommended. The occasional googling of a verse or using it as your Bible for internet quoting gets 99% of the joy of that paraphrase.


I don't think I ever said it was a paraphrase, did I?  Anyone who is translating has to "interpret" whatever they are translating, particularly if it is 2000 years later.  I think his translation is lacking at least in what are the standard understandings of passages.  I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but I have read numerous passages thinking, I never heard this before and then reading a different translation which said something completely different.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2013, 12:20:04 PM »

I have a copy of the Message.  I can only say that its "interpretations" of various passages leave me scratching my head.  I would say it is more of a commentary on Scripture from a post-modern perspective than an actual copy of Scripture.

For the 87th time. The Message is a translation. Not a paraphrase. It is certainly not "post-modern" in any sense a lay person would use the term.

It is humorous at times given its voice, but revelatory at times as well.

Highly recommended.

Eugene Peterson who did this version in English translation is a remarkable fellow. I've heard a couple interviews with him over the years and he always across as an extremely earnest, humble, and good humored fellow.

He has a trait which I cannot help find endearing in anyone. When asked any question, it is as if he is being asked it for the first time. He responds to questions with a childlike spontaneity and generosity.

I don't come from the evo background that thumped this version of the Bible. I first heard about it here from people mocking it. Hoping to find some humor, which I did, I also found more than a few interesting and helpful renderings into English of Scripture.

The Orthodox Jewish Bible is not recommended. The occasional googling of a verse or using it as your Bible for internet quoting gets 99% of the joy of that paraphrase.


I don't think I ever said it was a paraphrase, did I?  Anyone who is translating has to "interpret" whatever they are translating, particularly if it is 2000 years later.

I can do this too, I didn't say you said it was a paraphrase. You are not the only person being addressed on the board within a post.

And as far as every translation is an interpretation, well I am your man.

All is interpretation. There are no facts as such. Nietzsche was correct in a manner.

So we agree. Fantastic.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Banned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2013, 12:24:22 PM »

All is interpretation. There are no facts as such. Nietzsche was correct in a manner.
Somehow I feel this belongs in that Sola Scriptura thread too.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,905



« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2013, 12:42:07 PM »

Fundamentally and at the root, Orthodox Christians worship God, hold God as the most important "everything" of the church.  To sin against God would be the worst thing you can do...   To sin against a director/abbot being worse, I can't imagine that.   

"Whoever is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much; and whoever is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much." (Luke 16:10)

"One who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Paraphrase: One who does not obey his Father ... (biological parents also function as antiprosopoi of God, hence the commandment to honour them - Our Lord is disgusted with those who use God as a pretext to not help their parents, cf. the korban issue in Mark 7:10).

Moral: There is no such thing as important and less important when it comes to the commandments of God and one's salvation.

Just like venerating an Icon is venerating its Prototype, honouring God's antiprosopoi (spiritual and physical parents, one's neighbour, etc.) means honouring God. Refusing to do so is twice the offence to God (you dishonour Him and his antiprosopos with whom he identifies). It's absurd to fear exalting him above God. An Icon can have slight imperfections, but it still represents the Prototype it depicts (if canonical) and can never exalted "above it".   

« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 01:01:17 PM by Romaios » Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2013, 12:48:15 PM »

Romaios,

I am glad to know that others benefit from your effort, cause YiM might never.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,905



« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2013, 01:09:00 PM »

Romaios,

I am glad to know that others benefit from your effort, cause YiM might never.

My hunch is that YiM understands these things, but he's just seeking for "Biblical" grounds (excuses) to justify his separation from the Church. Which I find absurd. 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 01:12:24 PM by Romaios » Logged
Virtual Paradise
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225



« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2013, 01:13:31 PM »

As a sin against an elder could never be equal to a sin against God...
This would seem to bring an elder up to God status, not just the status of Moses over Pharoah.  

You seem to have the mind of Korah:

Quote from: Numbers 16:1-4; 23-50
Now Korah son of Izhar son of Kohath son of Levi, along with Dathan and Abiram sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—descendants of Reuben—took two hundred fifty Israelite men, leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men,a and they confronted Moses. They assembled against Moses and against Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone too far! All the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them. So why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?” When Moses heard it, he fell on his face. (...)

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 24 Say to the congregation: Get away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. 25 So Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram; the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He said to the congregation, “Turn away from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, or you will be swept away for all their sins.” 27 So they got away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the entrance of their tents, together with their wives, their children, and their little ones. 28 And Moses said, “This is how you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works; it has not been of my own accord: 29 If these people die a natural death, or if a natural fate comes on them, then the Lord has not sent me. 30 But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up, with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.”
31 As soon as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them was split apart. 32 The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with their households—everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. 33 So they with all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. 34 All Israel around them fled at their outcry, for they said, “The earth will swallow us too!” 35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred fifty men offering the incense.
36c Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 37 Tell Eleazar son of Aaron the priest to take the censers out of the blaze; then scatter the fire far and wide. 38 For the censers of these sinners have become holy at the cost of their lives. Make them into hammered plates as a covering for the altar, for they presented them before the Lord and they became holy. Thus they shall be a sign to the Israelites. 39 So Eleazar the priest took the bronze censers that had been presented by those who were burned; and they were hammered out as a covering for the altar—40 a reminder to the Israelites that no outsider, who is not of the descendants of Aaron, shall approach to offer incense before the Lord, so as not to become like Korah and his company—just as the Lord had said to him through Moses.
41 On the next day, however, the whole congregation of the Israelites rebelled against Moses and against Aaron, saying, “You have killed the people of the Lord.” 42 And when the congregation had assembled against them, Moses and Aaron turned toward the tent of meeting; the cloud had covered it and the glory of the Lord appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 45 “Get away from this congregation, so that I may consume them in a moment.” And they fell on their faces. 46 Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer, put fire on it from the altar and lay incense on it, and carry it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them. For wrath has gone out from the Lord; the plague has begun.” 47 So Aaron took it as Moses had ordered, and ran into the middle of the assembly, where the plague had already begun among the people. He put on the incense, and made atonement for the people. 48 He stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stopped. 49 Those who died by the plague were fourteen thousand seven hundred, besides those who died in the affair of Korah. 50 When the plague was stopped, Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance of the tent of meeting.

And if you think things changed in the New Testament, how do you explain the death of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5? They must have thought that deceiving the Apostles was no offence against God. Yet Peter said: "Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? (...) You did not lie to us but to God!” (So the Apostles were the antiprosopoi of God.)

This is also interesting:

Quote from: Numbers 12:1-15
While they were at Hazeroth, Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had indeed married a Cushite woman); and they said, “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?” And the Lord heard it. Now the man Moses was very humble, more so than anyone else on the face of the earth. Suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, “Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them came out. Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward.

And he said, “Hear my words: When there are prophets among you, I the Lord make myself known to them in visions; I speak to them in dreams. Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house. With him I speak face to face—clearly, not in riddles; and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them, and he departed.

When the cloud went away from over the tent, Miriam had become leprous, as white as snow. And Aaron turned towards Miriam and saw that she was leprous. Then Aaron said to Moses, “Oh, my lord, do not punish usc for a sin that we have so foolishly committed. Do not let her be like one stillborn, whose flesh is half consumed when it comes out of its mother’s womb.” And Moses cried to the Lord, “O God, please heal her.” But the Lord said to Moses, “If her father had but spit in her face, would she not bear her shame for seven days? Let her be shut out of the camp for seven days, and after that she may be brought in again.” So Miriam was shut out of the camp for seven days; and the people did not set out on the march until Miriam had been brought in again.

Quote from: 4 Kings 2:23-25
[Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!” When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.


I'm trying to get your point, but the explanation seems to steer away from the subject matter a bit.   Though the book in previously describes the abbot/priest as only human, later it describes that it is better to sin against God than him.   Huh

better to sin against God than a human.

Seems exalting to a human above God.



Perhaps he means that it is better not to upset a virtuos priest/abbot found so after judging his ways and that you should listen to him more than your conscience of God, in that that he being more spiritually advanced knows God better than you? I don't know I am just saying , I did not read anything about the context.
Logged
TheTrisagion
Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of none
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,974



« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2013, 01:20:48 PM »

I have a copy of the Message.  I can only say that its "interpretations" of various passages leave me scratching my head.  I would say it is more of a commentary on Scripture from a post-modern perspective than an actual copy of Scripture.

For the 87th time. The Message is a translation. Not a paraphrase. It is certainly not "post-modern" in any sense a lay person would use the term.

It is humorous at times given its voice, but revelatory at times as well.

Highly recommended.

Eugene Peterson who did this version in English translation is a remarkable fellow. I've heard a couple interviews with him over the years and he always across as an extremely earnest, humble, and good humored fellow.

He has a trait which I cannot help find endearing in anyone. When asked any question, it is as if he is being asked it for the first time. He responds to questions with a childlike spontaneity and generosity.

I don't come from the evo background that thumped this version of the Bible. I first heard about it here from people mocking it. Hoping to find some humor, which I did, I also found more than a few interesting and helpful renderings into English of Scripture.

The Orthodox Jewish Bible is not recommended. The occasional googling of a verse or using it as your Bible for internet quoting gets 99% of the joy of that paraphrase.


I don't think I ever said it was a paraphrase, did I?  Anyone who is translating has to "interpret" whatever they are translating, particularly if it is 2000 years later.

I can do this too, I didn't say you said it was a paraphrase. You are not the only person being addressed on the board within a post.

And as far as every translation is an interpretation, well I am your man.

All is interpretation. There are no facts as such. Nietzsche was correct in a manner.

So we agree. Fantastic.

Cute.  Except for the fact that you did quote me and respond to what I wrote.  I don’t really care how your best buddy Peterson is such a nice guy, his translation is sub-par.  That isn’t something I had to read on this forum to figure out.   Not quite sure what the point is on the rest of your post, but it sounds astute.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,905



« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2013, 01:21:55 PM »

Perhaps he means that it is better not to upset a virtuos priest/abbot found so after judging his ways and that you should listen to him more than your conscience of God, in that that he being more spiritually advanced knows God better than you? I don't know I am just saying , I did not read anything about the context.

In the passage from the Ladder I referenced above, the disciple (Akakios) was clearly more "spiritually advanced" than his Elder, yet he persevered in obedience to him. Doing otherwise would have meant spiritual death for him. As a matter of fact, indulging in the thought that one is "more spiritually advanced" than anyone else means spiritual death for any body.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 01:39:31 PM by Romaios » Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Banned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2013, 01:28:10 PM »

I have a copy of the Message.  I can only say that its "interpretations" of various passages leave me scratching my head.  I would say it is more of a commentary on Scripture from a post-modern perspective than an actual copy of Scripture.

For the 87th time. The Message is a translation. Not a paraphrase. It is certainly not "post-modern" in any sense a lay person would use the term.

It is humorous at times given its voice, but revelatory at times as well.

Highly recommended.

Eugene Peterson who did this version in English translation is a remarkable fellow. I've heard a couple interviews with him over the years and he always across as an extremely earnest, humble, and good humored fellow.

He has a trait which I cannot help find endearing in anyone. When asked any question, it is as if he is being asked it for the first time. He responds to questions with a childlike spontaneity and generosity.

I don't come from the evo background that thumped this version of the Bible. I first heard about it here from people mocking it. Hoping to find some humor, which I did, I also found more than a few interesting and helpful renderings into English of Scripture.

The Orthodox Jewish Bible is not recommended. The occasional googling of a verse or using it as your Bible for internet quoting gets 99% of the joy of that paraphrase.


I don't think I ever said it was a paraphrase, did I?  Anyone who is translating has to "interpret" whatever they are translating, particularly if it is 2000 years later.

I can do this too, I didn't say you said it was a paraphrase. You are not the only person being addressed on the board within a post.

And as far as every translation is an interpretation, well I am your man.

All is interpretation. There are no facts as such. Nietzsche was correct in a manner.

So we agree. Fantastic.

Cute.  Except for the fact that you did quote me and respond to what I wrote.  I don’t really care how your best buddy Peterson is such a nice guy, his translation is sub-par.  That isn’t something I had to read on this forum to figure out.   Not quite sure what the point is on the rest of your post, but it sounds astute.
Angry much?

Relax.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.225 seconds with 73 queries.