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Author Topic: is there any church father or early Christian saying that 'I believe in bible'?  (Read 2975 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 31, 2013, 01:27:59 PM »

Many Christians, church father and saints also believes in 'one holy, catholic and apostolic church' in Early Church . It is clearly shown in creeds and patrastic works.

However, is there any church fathers, saints or early Christians saying that 'I believe in the Bible'  in their written works or creed?
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2013, 01:37:19 PM »

Do you mean like Sola Scriptura protestants does today?
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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2013, 01:39:05 PM »

Many Christians, church father and saints also believes in 'one holy, catholic and apostolic church' in Early Church . It is clearly shown in creeds and patrastic works.

However, is there any church fathers, saints or early Christians saying that 'I believe in the Bible'  in their written works or creed?

I am going to be lazy and say reread the Nicene Creed, in it you will find the Scriptures mentioned as validating material, also affirmation of Who inspired them. of course to the Apostles the Scriptures are the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, for the Apostolic Fathers the Scriptures broaden to include the Gospels and the Epistles.


Edit: perhaps I am addressing a different point than what you are trying to make.
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« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2013, 01:45:34 PM »

I don't know of any that said it plainly like that, but St. Ignatius of Antioch is famous for saying:
 
Quote from: St. Ignatius of Antioch
For I heard some people say, “If I do not find it in the archives (= the Old Testament), I do not believe it in the gospel.” And when I said to them, “It is written,” they answered me, “That is precisely the question.” But for me, the “archives” are Jesus Christ, the inviolable archives are his cross and death and his resurrection and the faith which comes through him; by these things I want, through your prayers, to be justified.

Letter to the Philadelphians 8.

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« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2013, 01:53:58 PM »

Do you mean like Sola Scriptura protestants does today?

Yes. Believe in bible but do not believe in the Church
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« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2013, 01:59:44 PM »

"For my part, I should not believe the Gospels except as moved by the authority of the catholic (=Orthodox) Church"

- St. Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, ch. 5.

It doesn't get more explicit than this.
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2013, 02:03:22 PM »

Do you mean like Sola Scriptura protestants does today?

Yes. Believe in bible but do not believe in the Church

Not that I'm aware of...
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2013, 02:04:49 PM »

Do you mean like Sola Scriptura protestants does today?

Yes. Believe in bible but do not believe in the Church
No.  The bible as we know it didn't exist for a long time.  The Scriptures existed, but not in the way Protestants think.
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2013, 02:09:29 PM »

Do you mean like Sola Scriptura protestants does today?

Yes. Believe in bible but do not believe in the Church
No.  The bible as we know it didn't exist for a long time.  The Scriptures existed, but not in the way Protestants think.
What is the difference between the bible the Protestants use and the Scriptures which the early Christianity use?
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2013, 02:37:11 PM »

Do you mean like Sola Scriptura protestants does today?

Yes. Believe in bible but do not believe in the Church
No.  The bible as we know it didn't exist for a long time.  The Scriptures existed, but not in the way Protestants think.
What is the difference between the bible the Protestants use and the Scriptures which the early Christianity use?
difference is in the interpretation not of the context per se.
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2013, 02:42:15 PM »

Do you mean like Sola Scriptura protestants does today?

Yes. Believe in bible but do not believe in the Church
No.  The bible as we know it didn't exist for a long time.  The Scriptures existed, but not in the way Protestants think.
What is the difference between the bible the Protestants use and the Scriptures which the early Christianity use?

The Scriptural canon the early Christians (and modern Orthodox) use was not set in stone, nor the final authority. Not so for many who fall under the Protestant umbrella.
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2013, 02:44:02 PM »

Yeah, but they're lost. Because after Constantine, the Church became liturgical and started worshipping idols. The true Church--which consisted in random people with different beliefs coming together for 45 minutes every Sunday in someone's house for "Bible-studies"--was "forced underground" as the corrupted Constantinian Church started worshipping idols and indulging in all sorts of heretical doctrines like the literal presence, the concept of Sacraments, Monasticism and "traditions of man." The true Church wasn't rediscovered until the 16th century thanks to this German guy.
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2013, 02:49:27 PM »

Yeah, but they're lost. Because after Constantine, the Church became liturgical and started worshipping idols. The true Church--which consisted in random people with different beliefs coming together for 45 minutes every Sunday in someone's house for "Bible-studies"--was "forced underground" as the corrupted Constantinian Church started worshipping idols and indulging in all sorts of heretical doctrines like the literal presence, the concept of Sacraments, Monasticism and "traditions of man." The true Church wasn't rediscovered until the 16th century thanks to this German guy.

I doubt that any educated person holds this view.
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2013, 02:50:47 PM »

Yeah, but they're lost. Because after Constantine, the Church became liturgical and started worshipping idols. The true Church--which consisted in random people with different beliefs coming together for 45 minutes every Sunday in someone's house for "Bible-studies"--was "forced underground" as the corrupted Constantinian Church started worshipping idols and indulging in all sorts of heretical doctrines like the literal presence, the concept of Sacraments, Monasticism and "traditions of man." The true Church wasn't rediscovered until the 16th century thanks to this German guy.

I doubt that any educated person holds this view.

No, but many Evangelical "Bible Scholars" do Cheesy
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2013, 02:57:32 PM »

Yeah, but they're lost. Because after Constantine, the Church became liturgical and started worshipping idols. The true Church--which consisted in random people with different beliefs coming together for 45 minutes every Sunday in someone's house for "Bible-studies"--was "forced underground" as the corrupted Constantinian Church started worshipping idols and indulging in all sorts of heretical doctrines like the literal presence, the concept of Sacraments, Monasticism and "traditions of man." The true Church wasn't rediscovered until the 16th century thanks to this German guy.

I doubt that any educated person holds this view.

No, but many Evangelical "Bible Scholars" do Cheesy

LOL. I see what you did there.
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2013, 03:23:01 PM »

Belief in the Church entails belief in all her traditions collectively, whether Scripturally, liturgically, sacramentally, canonically, conciliarly, historically through saints, etc.  (if I left anything else out, feel free to add).
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2013, 03:26:49 PM »

Many Christians, church father and saints also believes in 'one holy, catholic and apostolic church' in Early Church . It is clearly shown in creeds and patrastic works.

However, is there any church fathers, saints or early Christians saying that 'I believe in the Bible'  in their written works or creed?

I am going to be lazy and say reread the Nicene Creed, in it you will find the Scriptures mentioned as validating material, also affirmation of Who inspired them. of course to the Apostles the Scriptures are the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, for the Apostolic Fathers the Scriptures broaden to include the Gospels and the Epistles.


Edit: perhaps I am addressing a different point than what you are trying to make.

From the Nicene Creed:

"...And on the third day, he rose from the dead according to the Scriptures.  He ascended..."
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2013, 03:36:52 PM »

Yeah, but they're lost. Because after Constantine, the Church became liturgical and started worshipping idols. The true Church--which consisted in random people with different beliefs coming together for 45 minutes every Sunday in someone's house for "Bible-studies"--was "forced underground" as the corrupted Constantinian Church started worshipping idols and indulging in all sorts of heretical doctrines like the literal presence, the concept of Sacraments, Monasticism and "traditions of man." The true Church wasn't rediscovered until the 16th century thanks to this German guy.
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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2013, 03:45:22 PM »

Yeah, but they're lost. Because after Constantine, the Church became liturgical and started worshipping idols. The true Church--which consisted in random people with different beliefs coming together for 45 minutes every Sunday in someone's house for "Bible-studies"--was "forced underground" as the corrupted Constantinian Church started worshipping idols and indulging in all sorts of heretical doctrines like the literal presence, the concept of Sacraments, Monasticism and "traditions of man." The true Church wasn't rediscovered until the 16th century thanks to this German guy.
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2013, 04:03:59 PM »

Yeah, but they're lost. Because after Constantine, the Church became liturgical and started worshipping idols. The true Church--which consisted in random people with different beliefs coming together for 45 minutes every Sunday in someone's house for "Bible-studies"--was "forced underground" as the corrupted Constantinian Church started worshipping idols and indulging in all sorts of heretical doctrines like the literal presence, the concept of Sacraments, Monasticism and "traditions of man." The true Church wasn't rediscovered until the 16th century thanks to this German guy.
LOL!!!
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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2013, 05:00:28 PM »

Yeah, but they're lost. Because after Constantine, the Church became liturgical and started worshipping idols. The true Church--which consisted in random people with different beliefs coming together for 45 minutes every Sunday in someone's house for "Bible-studies"--was "forced underground" as the corrupted Constantinian Church started worshipping idols and indulging in all sorts of heretical doctrines like the literal presence, the concept of Sacraments, Monasticism and "traditions of man." The true Church wasn't rediscovered until the 16th century thanks to this German guy.
LOL!!!

This Great Apostasy or Landmark theory is still far too common among groups that trace their heritage back to the Radical Reformers, and includes a great deal of modern Evangelicals. It's rather sad, and was essentially what I was taught until I studied theology at a Methodist school (even though it led me to become Presbyterian, they don't hold to such silliness either).
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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2013, 05:40:29 PM »

Is there anyone here willing to actually answer Walter's question? So far I've seen none.
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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2013, 05:44:26 PM »

Is there anyone here willing to actually answer Walter's question? So far I've seen none.

Several people have cited Fathers teaching the opposite. I think that's about as good as you're going to get. We can't really post a lack of evidence.
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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2013, 06:10:45 PM »

Is there anyone here willing to actually answer Walter's question? So far I've seen none.

See reply #6.
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2013, 06:51:09 PM »

Belief in the Church entails belief in all her traditions collectively, whether Scripturally, liturgically, sacramentally, canonically, conciliarly, historically through saints, etc.  (if I left anything else out, feel free to add).

The one issue I think that many Orthodox Christians have when defining the Holy Tradition is that they mostly confine it to history--such as the scriptures, patristics or writings from the past but tend to ignore the fact that the Holy Tradition is an eternal process. It is not a group of patristics, scriptures and writings from the past, but the dynamic life of the Holy Spirit within the Church. The age of the patristics did not end, and the possibility of having new theologians on the level of St. Athanasius for example is still there. The reason I say this is because I know many Orthodox Christians who are always trying to "recreate the past" for lack of a better phrase, and take the writings of modern Saints or theologians less seriously than they do with the old ones. In a way, it's the same kind of logic as Protestant Sola Scriptura.
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2013, 06:53:06 PM »

In response to the original question, St. John Chrysostom highly revered the Scriptures and urged people to read them in his homilies all the time and talked about the importance of them, but he never really said anything to suggest sola Scriptura or that the Scriptures come first.
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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2013, 07:06:48 PM »

I think, JamesR, that your comments are good and helpful. We have to keep in mind that when we speak of the Holy Tradition and Patristics, that we're referring not to a closed, historical period but rather that living and growing Body of Christ that to this day produces saints, and that it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Church that produces truth, particularly through those hallowed men and women who have been revealed to us as resting in the Bosom of Abraham and awaiting with anticipation their resurrection, that the Age to Come be ushered in. All of these men and women, from the Apostles and the Theotokos to the modern saints such as John the Wonderworker, Nicholai of Zicha and Nektarios of Aegina...even, in some ways, those elders yet to be formally canonized, such as Paisios of the Holy Mountain or Pat. Pavle of Serbia.

To your second point, certainly many of the Fathers venerate, and rightfully so, the Scriptures. There's no question that the Orthodox love the Scriptures, particularly the Gospels. Have you seen what we do with them? We adorn their pages with icons and calligraphy, bind them in books of precious metals and stones, and hold them high, parading them around the Church. We kiss them, and lay them upon our bishops as we consecrate them. Have you seen in Baptists do this? Any Presbyterians? Surely not, for if they did, they would appear as the ones worshiping the idol of a book, rather than Christ Himself.

However, us Orthodox, place such veneration in a context that allows it to be so. Along with the veneration we give to saints, the worship giving to Christ (especially the way we treat the relics of His Cross, and even moreso Himself as present in the Holy Eucharist!). Surely our method of venerating the Scriptures would be greatly out of place in a Protestant setting, but it is the Church who can properly give the context for such veneration, who can give context to the Scriptures themselves, as part (even so, the cornerstone) of the Holy Tradition given by Christ and once delivered to the saints.
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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2013, 09:30:44 PM »

They are pretty adament about the authority and power of scripture (saint John Chrysostom comes to mind saying scripture and knowledge of it would solve all of our problems, right or wrong he may be). But that specific phrase? I don't know.
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2013, 10:06:17 PM »

They are pretty adament about the authority and power of scripture (saint John Chrysostom comes to mind saying scripture and knowledge of it would solve all of our problems, right or wrong he may be). But that specific phrase? I don't know.

I'm aware of that quote, I think it's from his On Wealth and Poverty. It's fair to mention that St. John Chrysostom was notorious for his use of hyperbole, and that he was probably referring to personal problems opposed to doctrinal Church problems.
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« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2013, 11:30:57 PM »

Belief in the Church entails belief in all her traditions collectively, whether Scripturally, liturgically, sacramentally, canonically, conciliarly, historically through saints, etc.  (if I left anything else out, feel free to add).

The one issue I think that many Orthodox Christians have when defining the Holy Tradition is that they mostly confine it to history--such as the scriptures, patristics or writings from the past but tend to ignore the fact that the Holy Tradition is an eternal process. It is not a group of patristics, scriptures and writings from the past, but the dynamic life of the Holy Spirit within the Church. The age of the patristics did not end, and the possibility of having new theologians on the level of St. Athanasius for example is still there. The reason I say this is because I know many Orthodox Christians who are always trying to "recreate the past" for lack of a better phrase, and take the writings of modern Saints or theologians less seriously than they do with the old ones. In a way, it's the same kind of logic as Protestant Sola Scriptura.
Youre absolutely correct.  My intention was not on history alone, but an ongoing dynamic process in the Church.  But of course many have used the past as a foundation, not necessarily to recreate the past, but to help in it's direction to evolve into something more mature in the future, using the spirit of the Fathers.

I also hoped that by writing that post that I actually did answer Walter's question.
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« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2013, 02:04:55 AM »

Yeah, but they're lost. Because after Constantine, the Church became liturgical and started worshipping idols. The true Church--which consisted in random people with different beliefs coming together for 45 minutes every Sunday in someone's house for "Bible-studies"--was "forced underground" as the corrupted Constantinian Church started worshipping idols and indulging in all sorts of heretical doctrines like the literal presence, the concept of Sacraments, Monasticism and "traditions of man." The true Church wasn't rediscovered until the 16th century thanks to this German guy.
LOL!!!

This Great Apostasy or Landmark theory is still far too common among groups that trace their heritage back to the Radical Reformers, and includes a great deal of modern Evangelicals. It's rather sad, and was essentially what I was taught until I studied theology at a Methodist school (even though it led me to become Presbyterian, they don't hold to such silliness either).

What is so objectionable to the idea of a "Great Apostasy", though? People really seem to have a problem with the idea more than anything, despite that their own church teaches there was another great apostasy (when the majority of Christians were Arians). It happened at least once according to everyone.
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« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2013, 02:44:13 AM »

Yeah, but they're lost. Because after Constantine, the Church became liturgical and started worshipping idols. The true Church--which consisted in random people with different beliefs coming together for 45 minutes every Sunday in someone's house for "Bible-studies"--was "forced underground" as the corrupted Constantinian Church started worshipping idols and indulging in all sorts of heretical doctrines like the literal presence, the concept of Sacraments, Monasticism and "traditions of man."

I doubt that any educated person holds this view.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2013, 02:48:06 AM »

People really seem to have a problem with the idea more than anything, despite that their own church teaches there was another great apostasy (when the majority of Christians were Arians). It happened at least once according to everyone.
Yes, but that was a (technically) minor variation in belief, compared to the notion that within a few decades, thousands of people who had hitherto been willing to die for a minority religion would permit it to be abominated on nearly every level into something totally opposing its previous structure, belief and practice. The historical record bears out no such transformation in the 4th Century, as the standard Great Apostasy theory claims.

It is worth mentioning that those who created the Great Apostasy hypothesis had serious ethos problems.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
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« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2013, 09:20:54 AM »

"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith."

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« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2013, 09:27:43 AM »

Bunch more from a quick Google search:

St. Athanasius (c.296-373):

The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.

(Against the Heathen, I:3, quoted in Carl A. Volz, Faith and Practice in the Early Church [Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1983], p. 147.)




St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c.310-386):

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

(Catechetical Lectures, IV:17, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1983 reprint], Second Series, Vol. VII, p. 23.)




St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395):

...we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.

(On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)




St. Gregory of Nyssa:

Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.

(On the Holy Trinity, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. V, p. 327.)





St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430):

Let them show their church if they can, not by the speeches and mumblings of the Africans, not by the councils of their bishops, not by the writings of any of their champions, not by fraudulent signs and wonders, because we have been prepared and made cautious also against these things by the Word of the Lord; but [let them show their church] by a command of the Law, by the predictions of the prophets, by songs from the Psalms, by the words of the Shepherd Himself, by the preaching and labors of the evangelists; that is, by all the canonical authorities of the sacred books.

(On the Unity of the Church, 16, quoted in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part I [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971], p. 159.)




St. Augustine of Hippo:

What more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For Holy Scripture sets a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behooves to be wise,” but be wise, as he says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God has allotted the measure of faith.”

(On the Good of Widowhood, 2, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. III, p. 442. The quotation is from Romans 12:3.)




St. John Chrysostom (c.347-407):

Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer to [our own] calculation; but in calculating upon [theological] facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and rule for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things...

(Homily 13 on 2 Corinthians, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. XII, p. 346.)




St. John Chrysostom:

Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.

(Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 96, p. 118.)





St. John Chrysostom:

They say that we are to understand the things concerning Paradise not as they are written but in a different way. But when Scripture wants to teach us something like that, it interprets itself and does not permit the hearer to err. I therefore beg and entreat that we close our eyes to all things and follow the canon of Holy Scripture exactly.

(Homily 13 on Genesis.)





St. John Chrysostom:

There comes a heathen and says, "I wish to become a Christian, but I know not whom to join: there is much fighting and faction among you, much confusion: which doctrine am I to choose?" How shall we answer him? "Each of you" (says he) "asserts, 'I speak the truth.'" No doubt: this is in our favor. For if we told you to be persuaded by arguments, you might well be perplexed: but if we bid you believe the Scriptures, and these are simple and true, the decision is easy for you. If any agree with the Scriptures, he is the Christian; if any fight against them, he is far from this rule.

(Homily 33 on the Acts of the Apostles [NPNF 1, 11:210-11; PG 60.243-44])





St. Basil the Great (c.329-379):

They are charging me with innovation, and base their charge on my confession of three hypostases [persons], and blame me for asserting one Goodness, one Power, one Godhead. In this they are not wide of the truth, for I do so assert. Their complaint is that their custom does not accept this, and that Scripture does not agree. What is my reply? I do not consider it fair that the custom which obtains among them should be regarded as a law and rule of orthodoxy. If custom is to be taken in proof of what is right, then it is certainly competent for me to put forward on my side the custom which obtains here. If they reject this, we are clearly not bound to follow them. Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the Word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth.

(Letter 189 [to Eustathius the physician], 3, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. VIII, p. 229.)




St. Basil the Great:

What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if “all that is not of faith is sin” as the Apostle says, and “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,” everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.

(The Morals, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 9, p. 204.)





St. Basil the Great:

We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.

(On the Holy Spirit, 7:16.)





St. John of Damascus (c.675-c.749):

It is impossible either to say or fully to understand anything about God beyond what has been divinely proclaimed to us, whether told or revealed, by the sacred declarations of the Old and New Testaments.

(On the Orthodox Faith, I:2, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 37.)




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« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2013, 10:32:53 AM »

 Smiley I think we have a winner!
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« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2013, 10:51:52 AM »

It seems that St. Agustine contradicts himself in the quotes posted here?
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« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2013, 10:58:13 AM »

The OP asked for:

Yes. Believe in bible but do not believe in the Church

The long list of quotes doesn't address this.
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« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2013, 11:06:28 AM »

Bunch more from a quick Google search:

St. Athanasius (c.296-373):

The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.

(Against the Heathen, I:3, quoted in Carl A. Volz, Faith and Practice in the Early Church [Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1983], p. 147.)




St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c.310-386):

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

(Catechetical Lectures, IV:17, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1983 reprint], Second Series, Vol. VII, p. 23.)




St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395):

...we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.

(On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)




St. Gregory of Nyssa:

Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.

(On the Holy Trinity, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. V, p. 327.)





St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430):

Let them show their church if they can, not by the speeches and mumblings of the Africans, not by the councils of their bishops, not by the writings of any of their champions, not by fraudulent signs and wonders, because we have been prepared and made cautious also against these things by the Word of the Lord; but [let them show their church] by a command of the Law, by the predictions of the prophets, by songs from the Psalms, by the words of the Shepherd Himself, by the preaching and labors of the evangelists; that is, by all the canonical authorities of the sacred books.

(On the Unity of the Church, 16, quoted in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part I [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971], p. 159.)




St. Augustine of Hippo:

What more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For Holy Scripture sets a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behooves to be wise,” but be wise, as he says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God has allotted the measure of faith.”

(On the Good of Widowhood, 2, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. III, p. 442. The quotation is from Romans 12:3.)




St. John Chrysostom (c.347-407):

Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer to [our own] calculation; but in calculating upon [theological] facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and rule for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things...

(Homily 13 on 2 Corinthians, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. XII, p. 346.)




St. John Chrysostom:

Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.

(Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 96, p. 118.)





St. John Chrysostom:

They say that we are to understand the things concerning Paradise not as they are written but in a different way. But when Scripture wants to teach us something like that, it interprets itself and does not permit the hearer to err. I therefore beg and entreat that we close our eyes to all things and follow the canon of Holy Scripture exactly.

(Homily 13 on Genesis.)





St. John Chrysostom:

There comes a heathen and says, "I wish to become a Christian, but I know not whom to join: there is much fighting and faction among you, much confusion: which doctrine am I to choose?" How shall we answer him? "Each of you" (says he) "asserts, 'I speak the truth.'" No doubt: this is in our favor. For if we told you to be persuaded by arguments, you might well be perplexed: but if we bid you believe the Scriptures, and these are simple and true, the decision is easy for you. If any agree with the Scriptures, he is the Christian; if any fight against them, he is far from this rule.

(Homily 33 on the Acts of the Apostles [NPNF 1, 11:210-11; PG 60.243-44])





St. Basil the Great (c.329-379):

They are charging me with innovation, and base their charge on my confession of three hypostases [persons], and blame me for asserting one Goodness, one Power, one Godhead. In this they are not wide of the truth, for I do so assert. Their complaint is that their custom does not accept this, and that Scripture does not agree. What is my reply? I do not consider it fair that the custom which obtains among them should be regarded as a law and rule of orthodoxy. If custom is to be taken in proof of what is right, then it is certainly competent for me to put forward on my side the custom which obtains here. If they reject this, we are clearly not bound to follow them. Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the Word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth.

(Letter 189 [to Eustathius the physician], 3, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. VIII, p. 229.)




St. Basil the Great:

What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if “all that is not of faith is sin” as the Apostle says, and “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,” everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.

(The Morals, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 9, p. 204.)





St. Basil the Great:

We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.

(On the Holy Spirit, 7:16.)





St. John of Damascus (c.675-c.749):

It is impossible either to say or fully to understand anything about God beyond what has been divinely proclaimed to us, whether told or revealed, by the sacred declarations of the Old and New Testaments.

(On the Orthodox Faith, I:2, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 37.)





It's interesting that everyone of the Church fathers also believe in Tradition, the Councils, the ordained Priesthood, etc.
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« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2013, 01:39:19 PM »

That's because it's all Scriptural.

Bunch more from a quick Google search:

St. Athanasius (c.296-373):

The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.

(Against the Heathen, I:3, quoted in Carl A. Volz, Faith and Practice in the Early Church [Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1983], p. 147.)




St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c.310-386):

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

(Catechetical Lectures, IV:17, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1983 reprint], Second Series, Vol. VII, p. 23.)




St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395):

...we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.

(On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)




St. Gregory of Nyssa:

Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.

(On the Holy Trinity, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. V, p. 327.)





St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430):

Let them show their church if they can, not by the speeches and mumblings of the Africans, not by the councils of their bishops, not by the writings of any of their champions, not by fraudulent signs and wonders, because we have been prepared and made cautious also against these things by the Word of the Lord; but [let them show their church] by a command of the Law, by the predictions of the prophets, by songs from the Psalms, by the words of the Shepherd Himself, by the preaching and labors of the evangelists; that is, by all the canonical authorities of the sacred books.

(On the Unity of the Church, 16, quoted in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part I [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971], p. 159.)




St. Augustine of Hippo:

What more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For Holy Scripture sets a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behooves to be wise,” but be wise, as he says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God has allotted the measure of faith.”

(On the Good of Widowhood, 2, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. III, p. 442. The quotation is from Romans 12:3.)




St. John Chrysostom (c.347-407):

Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer to [our own] calculation; but in calculating upon [theological] facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and rule for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things...

(Homily 13 on 2 Corinthians, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. XII, p. 346.)




St. John Chrysostom:

Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.

(Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 96, p. 118.)





St. John Chrysostom:

They say that we are to understand the things concerning Paradise not as they are written but in a different way. But when Scripture wants to teach us something like that, it interprets itself and does not permit the hearer to err. I therefore beg and entreat that we close our eyes to all things and follow the canon of Holy Scripture exactly.

(Homily 13 on Genesis.)





St. John Chrysostom:

There comes a heathen and says, "I wish to become a Christian, but I know not whom to join: there is much fighting and faction among you, much confusion: which doctrine am I to choose?" How shall we answer him? "Each of you" (says he) "asserts, 'I speak the truth.'" No doubt: this is in our favor. For if we told you to be persuaded by arguments, you might well be perplexed: but if we bid you believe the Scriptures, and these are simple and true, the decision is easy for you. If any agree with the Scriptures, he is the Christian; if any fight against them, he is far from this rule.

(Homily 33 on the Acts of the Apostles [NPNF 1, 11:210-11; PG 60.243-44])





St. Basil the Great (c.329-379):

They are charging me with innovation, and base their charge on my confession of three hypostases [persons], and blame me for asserting one Goodness, one Power, one Godhead. In this they are not wide of the truth, for I do so assert. Their complaint is that their custom does not accept this, and that Scripture does not agree. What is my reply? I do not consider it fair that the custom which obtains among them should be regarded as a law and rule of orthodoxy. If custom is to be taken in proof of what is right, then it is certainly competent for me to put forward on my side the custom which obtains here. If they reject this, we are clearly not bound to follow them. Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the Word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth.

(Letter 189 [to Eustathius the physician], 3, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. VIII, p. 229.)




St. Basil the Great:

What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if “all that is not of faith is sin” as the Apostle says, and “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,” everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.

(The Morals, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 9, p. 204.)





St. Basil the Great:

We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.

(On the Holy Spirit, 7:16.)





St. John of Damascus (c.675-c.749):

It is impossible either to say or fully to understand anything about God beyond what has been divinely proclaimed to us, whether told or revealed, by the sacred declarations of the Old and New Testaments.

(On the Orthodox Faith, I:2, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 37.)





It's interesting that everyone of the Church fathers also believe in Tradition, the Councils, the ordained Priesthood, etc.
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« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2013, 01:40:16 PM »

Stop quoting the entire list.
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« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2013, 01:41:25 PM »

It's interesting that everyone of the Church fathers also believe in Tradition, the Councils, the ordained Priesthood, etc.

Those things are Scriptural as well.
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« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2013, 02:00:45 PM »

It's interesting that everyone of the Church fathers also believe in Tradition, the Councils, the ordained Priesthood, etc.

Like Papal Infallibility or the Immaculate Conception? What council's? Rome has had many the Eastern churches reject. Who's tradition?  RC, OO, EO, Assyrian, other churches that broke away from these over corruption like selling salvation and Inquisitions?

I think Saint John Chrysostom put it best when he stated:

There comes a heathen and says, "I wish to become a Christian, but I know not whom to join: there is much fighting and faction among you, much confusion: which doctrine am I to choose?" How shall we answer him? "Each of you" (says he) "asserts, 'I speak the truth.'" No doubt: this is in our favor. For if we told you to be persuaded by arguments, you might well be perplexed: but if we bid you believe the Scriptures, and these are simple and true, the decision is easy for you. If any agree with the Scriptures, he is the Christian; if any fight against them, he is far from this rule.

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« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2013, 02:06:26 PM »

Who's tradition? 

Whose tradition? Well, the one of the Fathers you just quoted of course.
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« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2013, 02:21:58 PM »

It's interesting that everyone of the Church fathers also believe in Tradition, the Councils, the ordained Priesthood, etc.

Like Papal Infallibility or the Immaculate Conception? What council's? Rome has had many the Eastern churches reject. Who's tradition?  RC, OO, EO, Assyrian, other churches that broke away from these over corruption like selling salvation and Inquisitions?

I think Saint John Chrysostom put it best when he stated:

There comes a heathen and says, "I wish to become a Christian, but I know not whom to join: there is much fighting and faction among you, much confusion: which doctrine am I to choose?" How shall we answer him? "Each of you" (says he) "asserts, 'I speak the truth.'" No doubt: this is in our favor. For if we told you to be persuaded by arguments, you might well be perplexed: but if we bid you believe the Scriptures, and these are simple and true, the decision is easy for you. If any agree with the Scriptures, he is the Christian; if any fight against them, he is far from this rule.
What good does it do, however, to merely "believe the Scriptures" when by merely "believing the Scriptures", you Protestants have splintered into numerous different sects?
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