Topic: Discerning between RCC and EOC: Contraception and Ecumenical Councils.

[stanley123]

It’s no different in its purpose from artificial contraception,

except that NFP can't be called contraception because there is never any contraception taking place.,

This is what is difficult to understand. If NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't the purpose of NFP and artificial  contraception be the same? Also, when NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't that involve the use of artificial man made objects such as the thermometer and the taking of notes and making charts with an artificially made pencil and artificially made paper? And of course, there is the artificially man made Gregorian calendar, which people use. When you consider all of the artificial things that go into NFP, it is difficult to see it as natural.

[sedevacantist]

The true Church of Christ, the traditional Catholic Church teaches that contraception is a mortal sin, you will go to hell for this, this is why most people today are going to hell, the traditional church also teaches that NFP is a mortal sin, the modern vatican 2 sect teaches that it's ok.

A sin is only mortal if done willfully and with knowledge that the act is wrong. Otherwise God is punishing people for doing something they don't even know is wrong.

Why is NFP wrong?
NFP is wrong because it’s birth control; it’s against conception. It’s a refusal on the part of those
who use it to be open to the children that God planned to send them.

This actually is erroneous. Couples practicing NFP are supposed to use the method prayerfully. If they pray about abstaining for a time and God doesn't tell them to do otherwise then it seems the couple is being perfectly open to God's will.

It’s no different in its purpose from artificial contraception,

except that NFP can't be called contraception because there is never any contraception taking place.

“And now, Venerable Brethren, we shall explain in detail the evils opposed to each of the benefits of matrimony. First
consideration is due to the offspring, which many have the boldness to call the disagreeable burden of matrimony and which they say is to be carefully avoided by married people not through virtuous continence (which Christian law permits in
matrimony when both parties consent) but by frustrating the marriage act. Some justify  this criminal abuse on the ground that they are weary of children and wish to gratify their desires without their consequent burden. Others say that they cannot on the one
hand remain continent nor on the other can they have children because of the difficulties whether on the part of the mother or on the part of the family circumstances. “But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically
against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good . Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural powers and purpose sin against nature
and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious. “Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death. As St. Augustine notes, ‘
Intercourse even with one’s legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of offspring is prevented.’
Onan, the son of Judah, did this and the Lord killed him for it (Gen. 38:8 -10).

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/42_NFP.pdf

The bolded portion seems to fit perfectly well with NFP. Further, this entire passage addresses not misusing the sexual act! It says nothing about abstaining to postpone children being evil.

nfp's purpose is the same as contraception, sorry....abstaining is a different matter, not sure why you are mixing the 2

Catholics must also know that all who die in mortal sin will go to Hell forever.  Mortal sins include: murder, fornication (i.e. sexual acts outside of marriage or acts leading up to sex outside of marriage), lying, drunkenness, consenting to impure thoughts, masturbation, looking at pornography, adultery, cheating, taking God’s name in vain, birth control (NFP) or artificial contraception, assisting the propagation of heresy, funding heretics, dishonoring the Sabbath, breaking the commandments, etc.  If someone were to commit a mortal sin and then go to Confession, he must have the firm resolution never to commit the sin again.  This is called the firm purpose of amendment.  If a person commits a mortal sin and doesn’t have the firm purpose of amendment when he goes to Confession, he commits a sacrilege and the Confession is invalid.  Most souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh.  Those who are committing sins of the flesh need to stop immediately if they don’t want to perish forever in the fires of Hell.

 

St. Alphonsus on the damnation of the impure: "Continue, O fool, says St. Peter Damian (speaking to the unchaste), continue to gratify the flesh; for the day will come in which thy impurities will become as pitch in thy entrails, to increase and aggravate the torments of the flame which will burn thee in Hell: 'The day will come, yea rather the night, when thy lust shall be turned into pitch, to feed in thy bowels the everlasting fire." (Preparation for Death, abridged version, p. 117)

[Papist]

It’s no different in its purpose from artificial contraception,

except that NFP can't be called contraception because there is never any contraception taking place.,

This is what is difficult to understand. If NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't the purpose of NFP and artificial  contraception be the same? Also, when NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't that involve the use of artificial man made objects such as the thermometer and the taking of notes and making charts with an artificially made pencil and artificially made paper? And of course, there is the artificially man made Gregorian calendar, which people use. When you consider all of the artificial things that go into NFP, it is difficult to see it as natural.

No, because in the face of NFP, one is avoiding conception on God's terms. It was God who designed human nature such that conception was only possible on certain days. Contraception, on the other hand, is avoiding conception on one's own terms, getting sex on demand, and removing the natural consequences. There is a very striking qualitative difference.

[truthseeker32]

This is what is difficult to understand. If NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't the purpose of NFP and artificial  contraception be the same?

The purpose is indeed the same, but as I brought up in an earlier example dieting and bulimia have the same goal as well, but we say dieting is better than bulimia because of the action itself. This is the key issue separating Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians and schismatics like the Sedevacantists is that Catholics do not think it is sinful to postpone children for good reason, but if such spacing is to take place it must be done without interfering with the sexual act itself. So plugging it back into my weight loss example: If you want to lose or maintain weight (space or postpone children for good reason) that is perfectly fine, but you should do it through healthy dieting (NFP) not bulimia (artificial contraception).

Also, when NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't that involve the use of artificial man made objects such as the thermometer and the taking of notes and making charts with an artificially made pencil and artificially made paper? And of course, there is the artificially man made Gregorian calendar, which people use. When you consider all of the artificial things that go into NFP, it is difficult to see it as natural.

The focus is on the sexual act itself. A thermometer and calendar do not prevent the man and the woman from coming together and using their sexual organs correctly.

The two questions that we should focus on are:

1. Do actions themselves, apart from their goal, have moral bearing?

I think there are several examples that demonstrate that assessing the morality depends on more than just an individual's goal. For instance, if one person wants to be a better athlete we wouldn't hold that reaching his goal through steroid use or cheating is morally equivalent to practicing to get better simply because the end goal is the same.

2. Is it sinful to postpone or space children for good reason?

I do not think that it is sinful if done for good reason; otherwise we emphasize the procreative over the unitive and human beings are little different from animals who are driven to reproduce solely for procreation.

[truthseeker32]

No, because in the face of NFP, one is avoiding conception on God's terms. It was God who designed human nature such that conception was only possible on certain days. Contraception, on the other hand, is avoiding conception on one's own terms, getting sex on demand, and removing the natural consequences. There is a very striking qualitative difference.

Well said

[truthseeker32]

nfp's purpose is the same as contraception, sorry....abstaining is a different matter, not sure why you are mixing the 2

And the purpose of steroid use and working out are the same. It doesn't mean they are morally equivalent. And abstaining is included in NFP because, as Papist said, it is done by utilizing the natural cycle God has given to women and practicing abstinence during fertile periods.

Catholics must also know that all who die in mortal sin will go to Hell forever.  Mortal sins include: murder, fornication (i.e. sexual acts outside of marriage or acts leading up to sex outside of marriage), lying, drunkenness, consenting to impure thoughts, masturbation, looking at pornography, adultery, cheating, taking God’s name in vain, birth control (NFP) or artificial contraception, assisting the propagation of heresy, funding heretics, dishonoring the Sabbath, breaking the commandments, etc.

You are confusing grave sins with mortal sins. A grave sin becomes a mortal sin only if it is done with full knowledge and willfully. For example, if a person is compelled to get drunk at gunpoint he is not as guilty as the man who gets drunk willfully.

[Father H]

Sorry, not to be thick, as I think you are sincere, but I don't really believe in unoccluded free will.

It's sorta a catch-22. Why would anyone due x? They would have to be crazy!

Yeah, they probably are.

So if God is all good and all powerful, how can he allow someone to choose hell who has done so with an imperfect knowledge or freedom?

You don't need to have perfect knowledge of everything, and you need to have freedom to choose, which we do.  You either desire to be in God's presence and synergize with Him, or you don't.  You either like synergizing with Him (doing good toward others, kenosis, etc.) or you don't.  I don't need to know everything about my wife to make the right choice to remain faithful to her and be content with what I have.  I don't need to know everything about my neighbor in order not to steal His stuff and be content with what I have.  One is hell, the other heaven, and we choose between the two daily and all day long, whether there is "perfect knowledge" or not.     

[sedevacantist]

nfp's purpose is the same as contraception, sorry....abstaining is a different matter, not sure why you are mixing the 2

And the purpose of steroid use and working out are the same. It doesn't mean they are morally equivalent. And abstaining is included in NFP because, as Papist said, it is done by utilizing the natural cycle God has given to women and practicing abstinence during fertile periods.

Catholics must also know that all who die in mortal sin will go to Hell forever.  Mortal sins include: murder, fornication (i.e. sexual acts outside of marriage or acts leading up to sex outside of marriage), lying, drunkenness, consenting to impure thoughts, masturbation, looking at pornography, adultery, cheating, taking God’s name in vain, birth control (NFP) or artificial contraception, assisting the propagation of heresy, funding heretics, dishonoring the Sabbath, breaking the commandments, etc.

You are confusing grave sins with mortal sins. A grave sin becomes a mortal sin only if it is done with full knowledge and willfully. For example, if a person is compelled to get drunk at gunpoint he is not as guilty as the man who gets drunk willfully.

what are you talking about?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm#III
Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine (Reply to Faustus XXII.27) as "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam", i.e. something said, done or desired contrary to the eternal law, or a thought, word, or deed contrary to the eternal law. This is a definition of sin as it is a voluntary act. As it is a defect or privation it may be defined as an aversion from God, our true last end, by reason of the preference given to some mutable good. The definition of St. Augustine is accepted generally by theologians and is primarily a definition of actual mortal sin. It explains well the material and formal elements of sin. The words "dictum vel factum vel concupitum" denote the material element of sin, a human act: "contra legem æternam", the formal element. The act is bad because it transgresses the Divine law. St. Ambrose (De paradiso, viii) defines sin as a "prevarication of the Divine law". The definition of St. Augustine strictly considered, i.e. as sin averts us from our true ultimate end, does not comprehend venial sin, but in as much as venial sin is in a manner contrary to the Divine law, although not averting us from our last end, it may be said to be included in the definition as it stands. While primarily a definition of sins of commission, sins of omission may be included in the definition because they presuppose some positive act (St. Thomas, I-II:71:5) and negation and affirmation are reduced to the same genus. Sins that violate the human or the natural law are also included, for what is contrary to the human or natural law is also contrary to the Divine law, in as much as every just human law is derived from the Divine law, and is not just unless it is in conformity with the Divine law.

what you said here doesn't make sense
"And the purpose of steroid use and working out are the same. It doesn't mean they are morally equivalent "
because nfp and contraception's goals are the same evil, to have sex without having kids.......your analogy is wrong because the goal of getting in shape is not evil, do you understand?

[sedevacantist]

This is what is difficult to understand. If NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't the purpose of NFP and artificial  contraception be the same?

The purpose is indeed the same, but as I brought up in an earlier example dieting and bulimia have the same goal as well, but we say dieting is better than bulimia because of the action itself. This is the key issue separating Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians and schismatics like the Sedevacantists is that Catholics do not think it is sinful to postpone children for good reason,

you don't know what you're talking about , a sedevacantist is a Catholic, it's the only true position a traditional catholic can take, for the opposite would mean you don't think the pope is a heretic, so you actually believe the post vatican 2 popes not to be heretics?

[Aindriú]

[truthseeker32]

what you said here doesn't make sense
"And the purpose of steroid use and working out are the same. It doesn't mean they are morally equivalent "
because nfp and contraception's goals are the same evil, to have sex without having kids.......your analogy is wrong because the goal of getting in shape is not evil, do you understand?

What I was attempting to point out is that actions cannot be said to be morally equivalent because the end goal is the same. The actions themselves have moral bearing. I would agree with you that not wanting children is a bad thing, but this is quite different than recognizing that certain factors may make having children imprudent at a certain time. I do not think it is a sin to postpone conception for serious reasons. Thus from my perspective the question of focus would be whether there is a moral difference between NFP and contraceptives in the methods themselves.

This is what is difficult to understand. If NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't the purpose of NFP and artificial  contraception be the same?

The purpose is indeed the same, but as I brought up in an earlier example dieting and bulimia have the same goal as well, but we say dieting is better than bulimia because of the action itself. This is the key issue separating Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians and schismatics like the Sedevacantists is that Catholics do not think it is sinful to postpone children for good reason,

...a sedevacantist is a Catholic, it's the only true position a traditional catholic can take, for the opposite would mean you don't think the pope is a heretic, so you actually believe the post vatican 2 popes not to be heretics?

I believe the popes since vatican II have been legitimate successors of St. Peter. To believe otherwise undermines the Catholic faith's belief that Church will not be led into heresy. Schismatics such as the sedevacantists believe the Church was led into heresy under the successor of St. Peter. If this is the case then the Catholic position is proven false and either one of the Orthodox communions or the Mormons are right (assuming Christ is indeed the Messiah).

[sedevacantist]

what you said here doesn't make sense
"And the purpose of steroid use and working out are the same. It doesn't mean they are morally equivalent "
because nfp and contraception's goals are the same evil, to have sex without having kids.......your analogy is wrong because the goal of getting in shape is not evil, do you understand?

What I was attempting to point out is that actions cannot be said to be morally equivalent because the end goal is the same. The actions themselves have moral bearing. I would agree with you that not wanting children is a bad thing, but this is quite different than recognizing that certain factors may make having children imprudent at a certain time. I do not think it is a sin to postpone conception for serious reasons. Thus from my perspective the question of focus would be whether there is a moral difference between NFP and contraceptives in the methods themselves.

This is what is difficult to understand. If NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't the purpose of NFP and artificial  contraception be the same?

The purpose is indeed the same, but as I brought up in an earlier example dieting and bulimia have the same goal as well, but we say dieting is better than bulimia because of the action itself. This is the key issue separating Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians and schismatics like the Sedevacantists is that Catholics do not think it is sinful to postpone children for good reason,

...a sedevacantist is a Catholic, it's the only true position a traditional catholic can take, for the opposite would mean you don't think the pope is a heretic, so you actually believe the post vatican 2 popes not to be heretics?

I believe the popes since vatican II have been legitimate successors of St. Peter. To believe otherwise undermines the Catholic faith's belief that Church will not be led into heresy. Schismatics such as the sedevacantists believe the Church was led into heresy under the successor of St. Peter. If this is the case then the Catholic position is proven false and either one of the Orthodox communions or the Mormons are right (assuming Christ is indeed the Messiah).

you can believe what you want but you are wrong
study the catholic faith and understand the sede position
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/21_Objections.pdf

[Papist]

This is what is difficult to understand. If NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't the purpose of NFP and artificial  contraception be the same?

The purpose is indeed the same, but as I brought up in an earlier example dieting and bulimia have the same goal as well, but we say dieting is better than bulimia because of the action itself. This is the key issue separating Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians and schismatics like the Sedevacantists is that Catholics do not think it is sinful to postpone children for good reason,

you don't know what you're talking about , a sedevacantist is a Catholic, it's the only true position a traditional catholic can take, for the opposite would mean you don't think the pope is a heretic, so you actually believe the post vatican 2 popes not to be heretics?

No, sedevacantists are most certainly not Catholics.

[truthseeker32]

you can believe what you want but you are wrong
study the catholic faith and understand the sede position
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/21_Objections.pdf

Thanks, but no thanks. If anything those 21 objections made me more certain that you are mistaken. I wish you well and will be ending our conversation now so that the thread can get back on topic.

[ialmisry]

It’s no different in its purpose from artificial contraception,

except that NFP can't be called contraception because there is never any contraception taking place.,

This is what is difficult to understand. If NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't the purpose of NFP and artificial  contraception be the same? Also, when NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't that involve the use of artificial man made objects such as the thermometer and the taking of notes and making charts with an artificially made pencil and artificially made paper? And of course, there is the artificially man made Gregorian calendar, which people use. When you consider all of the artificial things that go into NFP, it is difficult to see it as natural.

No, because in the face of NFP, one is avoiding conception on God's terms. It was God who designed human nature such that conception was only possible on certain days. Contraception, on the other hand, is avoiding conception on one's own terms, getting sex on demand, and removing the natural consequences. There is a very striking qualitative difference.

Тhe "very striking qualitative difference" lies between Humanae Vitae and the weak patristics its defenders try to use to apologize for it.  On this sedevacantist has you-you are avoiding having sex on God's terms.  Your presuppositions would demand sex only on those certain days when conception is possible.  As Noonan says, it is ironic that HV chooses to bless the rhythm method (or basal temperature or whatever-the principle is the same) when the meagre patristric evidence that HV depends on explicitly condemns it.

This "sex on demand" supposition-only the celibate could dream it up.

[ialmisry]

This is what is difficult to understand. If NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't the purpose of NFP and artificial  contraception be the same?

The purpose is indeed the same, but as I brought up in an earlier example dieting and bulimia have the same goal as well, but we say dieting is better than bulimia because of the action itself. This is the key issue separating Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians and schismatics like the Sedevacantists is that Catholics do not think it is sinful to postpone children for good reason,

you don't know what you're talking about , a sedevacantist is a Catholic, it's the only true position a traditional catholic can take, for the opposite would mean you don't think the pope is a heretic, so you actually believe the post vatican 2 popes not to be heretics?

No, sedevacantists are most certainly not Catholics.

as Catholic as those who accept Vatican II.

[sedevacantist]

This is what is difficult to understand. If NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't the purpose of NFP and artificial  contraception be the same?

The purpose is indeed the same, but as I brought up in an earlier example dieting and bulimia have the same goal as well, but we say dieting is better than bulimia because of the action itself. This is the key issue separating Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians and schismatics like the Sedevacantists is that Catholics do not think it is sinful to postpone children for good reason,

you don't know what you're talking about , a sedevacantist is a Catholic, it's the only true position a traditional catholic can take, for the opposite would mean you don't think the pope is a heretic, so you actually believe the post vatican 2 popes not to be heretics?

No, sedevacantists are most certainly not Catholics.

No you are wrong and don't know what you are talking about.

[Justin Kissel]

Shall we add Papist vs. sedevacantist to our WrestleMania-OC.net card?

[#1Sinner]

This is what is difficult to understand. If NFP is used to avoid having children, wouldn't the purpose of NFP and artificial  contraception be the same?

The purpose is indeed the same, but as I brought up in an earlier example dieting and bulimia have the same goal as well, but we say dieting is better than bulimia because of the action itself. This is the key issue separating Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians and schismatics like the Sedevacantists is that Catholics do not think it is sinful to postpone children for good reason,

you don't know what you're talking about , a sedevacantist is a Catholic, it's the only true position a traditional catholic can take, for the opposite would mean you don't think the pope is a heretic, so you actually believe the post vatican 2 popes not to be heretics?

No, sedevacantists are most certainly not Catholics.

Nonsense. Rather the Conciliar Religion is not Catholic.

But this isn't my fight anymore, thanks be to God 

[#1Sinner]

Shall we add Papist vs. sedevacantist to our WrestleMania-OC.net card?

Please no. Bad enough that the fight seems to be spilling over from the Catholic boards to here.

[truthseeker32]

If I can re-steer this conversation I would like to focus on these questions in order:

1. Is it ever permissible for a married couple to space children or intend to not have children? Explain.

2. Is there a moral difference between NFP and artificial contraception in the actions themselves, apart from the goal/ intent? Explain.

[Cyrillic]

Shall we add Papist vs. sedevacantist to our WrestleMania-OC.net card?

OC.net trading cards?

[Papist]

Shall we add Papist vs. sedevacantist to our WrestleMania-OC.net card?

Lol. I'm one of those who thinks that the sede view is just so looney that I'm probably not going to get in a wrestling match over it. I mean sede is here defending the Catholic view of the Papacy, while denying that there has actually been a Pope since VII. I can't imagine the cognitive dissonance that being a sede causes.

[sedevacantist]

Shall we add Papist vs. sedevacantist to our WrestleMania-OC.net card?

Lol. I'm one of those who thinks that the sede view is just so looney that I'm probably not going to get in a wrestling match over it. I mean sede is here defending the Catholic view of the Papacy, while denying that there has actually been a Pope since VII. I can't imagine the cognitive dissonance that being a sede causes.

what's looney is believing in a pope who has gone against the magisterium and thinking that he's a catholic, you shouldn't get in a wrestling match since you don't know what you are talking about ,

The Vatican II sect and its Antipopes want you to be in communion with Devils

 
The Catholic Church teaches that there is only one true religion and the rest are false.  The Catholic Church teaches that pagan religions (such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Voodooism, etc.), which worship various “gods,” actually worship demons, since all the gods of the heathen are the devils.

 
Psalms 95:5- “For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils…”

 1 Cor. 10:20- “But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God.  And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils.”

 St. Paul says that when the pagans worship their gods they are worshipping devils, and he doesn’t want you to be in communion with devils.  The Vatican II sect, however, endorses these false religions which commit idolatry and worship devils.  This is unspeakably evil; it is a total rejection of the teaching of the Gospel and the Catholic Church, and it is condemned as apostasy by Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos.

At the notorious interfaith “ecumenical prayer gatherings” – the most well-known occurring at Assisi in 1986 and 2002 – religious leaders from all the major false religions were invited to pray alongside John Paul II at a “Catholic” church. 
Each religion was invited to offer its own prayer for peace – blasphemous prayers, for instance, as the Hindu prayer said: “Peace be on all gods.”  But their gods are devils, as we saw above, so peace was being prayed for all the devils (who created these false religions) at the Vatican-sponsored World Day of Prayer for Peace.  The Vatican II religion wants you to be in communion with devils.

 The Vatican II Sect on Islam

 
Then we have the Vatican II sect’s teaching on the false religion of Islam, which rejects the Holy Trinity and the Divinity of Jesus Christ.  Benedict XVI and John Paul have praised Islam, a false religion of the devil.  Here we see John Paul II in the Temple of infidelity (the mosque), endorsing their false religion.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, Session 19, Sept. 7, 1434:

“Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”

 

The Catholic Church teaches that Islam is “an abominable sect” of infidels (unbelievers).  An “abomination” is something that God abhors; it is something that He has no esteem for and no respect for.

 

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312: “It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (i.e., The followers of Islam, also called Muslims) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful.      These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty.  We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands.  We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all.. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet… Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.”

 for pictures and the rest of the article
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/VaticanII_mainpage.php

if this was  a wrestling match you would be Mean Gene Okerlund and I would be Andre the Giant....(mean Gene was a commentator)

[TheMathematician]

I hate to be that person, but mind varying your sources? A nice selection makes it so your position is stronger, rather than jsut the ramblings of a single site, whose bias is unmistakable

[ialmisry]

If I can re-steer this conversation I would like to focus on these questions in order:

1. Is it ever permissible for a married couple to space children or intend to not have children? Explain.

2. Is there a moral difference between NFP and artificial contraception in the actions themselves, apart from the goal/ intent? Explain.

1. Yes.  To think otherwise makes the couple nothing but passive instruments of breeding.  Yes, in some extreme cases-for instance, when the wife is undergoing continuous chemo treatments.

2. No, not for non-abortofacients-they both involve intercourse when the womb is inhospitable to conception.

[stanley123]

what's looney is believing in a pope who has gone against the magisterium and thinking that he's a catholic, ...

Has a pre-Vatican II Roman Pope ever gone against previous teaching before? For example, on the issue of slavery?

[truthseeker32]

1. Yes.  To think otherwise makes the couple nothing but passive instruments of breeding.  Yes, in some extreme cases-for instance, when the wife is undergoing continuous chemo treatments.

So in your view, would such spacing require total abstinence, or are other methods permissible?

2. No, not for non-abortofacients-they both involve intercourse when the womb is inhospitable to conception.

I hate to nitpick, but this is false. When a couple uses a non-abortifacient contraceptive, such as a condom, the womb may be perfectly hospitable; a device merely gets in the way of conception. In contrast, NFP uses charting techniques which may allow a couple to have sexual intercourse when the womb isn't "hospitable" as you put it. Nothing gets in the way.

[ialmisry]

1. Yes.  To think otherwise makes the couple nothing but passive instruments of breeding.  Yes, in some extreme cases-for instance, when the wife is undergoing continuous chemo treatments.

So in your view, would such spacing require total abstinence, or are other methods permissible?

In my opinion (and the statement of the Russian Orthodox Church) non-abortifacient methods are permissible.

2. No, not for non-abortofacients-they both involve intercourse when the womb is inhospitable to conception.

I hate to nitpick, but this is false. When a couple uses a non-abortifacient contraceptive, such as a condom, the womb may be perfectly hospitable; a device merely gets in the way of conception.

I blocked womb is an inhospitable womb.

In contrast, NFP uses charting techniques which may allow a couple to have sexual intercourse when the womb isn't "hospitable" as you put it. Nothing gets in the way.

Just the timing.  It's like promising to mail a college application, and waiting to do so after the due date passes.

[orthonorm]

No idea why, but this the funniest thing I've seen in a while!

Thanks.

[orthonorm]

I hate to be that person

What's wrong with That Person? He's seems pretty decent even if he is from the Dayton area.

[TheMathematician]

I hate to be that person

What's wrong with That Person? He's seems pretty decent even if he is from the Dayton area.

It gladdens me to see that you mpicked up on that word play, haha

[truthseeker32]

I blocked womb is an inhospitable womb.

Once again, false. An analogy: Lets say there is a very hospitable inn at the end of a road. If the road is blocked off and people are prevented from partaking of this hospitality it does not change the fact that the inn is still hospitable.

NFP, in this analogy, may be likened to the off season when nobody is at the inn. People may still go to the place where the inn is, but the staff is not there to greet visitors with hospitality.

Is it wrong to prevent people from partaking of the inn's hospitality? Is it wrong to visit the inn when it isn't open?

[sedevacantist]

what's looney is believing in a pope who has gone against the magisterium and thinking that he's a catholic, ...

Has a pre-Vatican II Roman Pope ever gone against previous teaching before? For example, on the issue of slavery?

yes there have been 40 or so antipopes in history, you shouldn't follow their teachings and you shouldn't follow these vatican 2 popes, do you believe in ecumenism?

[sedevacantist]

I hate to be that person, but mind varying your sources? A nice selection makes it so your position is stronger, rather than jsut the ramblings of a single site, whose bias is unmistakable

you shouldn't hate to be that person if you had a point, but seeing that my source is quoting from what popes have said and done in the past you clearly have no point, so how about you find one instance where my source quoted a past pope and it wasn't true, or else I would just consider your question as the ramblings of a person who has no argument

[ialmisry]

I blocked womb is an inhospitable womb.

Once again, false. An analogy: Lets say there is a very hospitable inn at the end of a road. If the road is blocked off and people are prevented from partaking of this hospitality it does not change the fact that the inn is still hospitable.

Irrelevant: you aren't going down the road when the inn is open, only when you know it is closed.  Whether you go when the entrance to the road is blocked, or you go when the door is locked, in either case, you are going when you know you can't get in.
=

Better yet, imagine it is like the partition door between two hotel rooms. Whether one locks the door from the outside, or locks it from the inside, in either case, you aren't going to get into the other room.

NFP, in this analogy, may be likened to the off season when nobody is at the inn. People may still go to the place where the inn is, but the staff is not there to greet visitors with hospitality.

You don't need the staff or the greeting.  Just to get in.

Is it wrong to prevent people from partaking of the inn's hospitality? Is it wrong to visit the inn when it isn't open?

two different questions with the same answer.  Hence the identity of "NFP" and "artificial contraception."

[truthseeker32]

Are you a consequentialist, Ialmisry? Do you believe the means don't matter if the objective is the same?

[ialmisry]

Are you a consequentialist, Ialmisry? Do you believe the means don't matter if the objective is the same?

No, but I don't have to be at the issue at hand.

[truthseeker32]

No, but I don't have to be at the issue at hand.

Maybe so. Can you give an explanation of why NFP and artificial contraception are morally equivalent without appeal to the intended consequence?

[Cavaradossi]

No, but I don't have to be at the issue at hand.

Maybe so. Can you give an explanation of why NFP and artificial contraception are morally equivalent without appeal to the intended consequence?

That is a rather specific constraint. Perhaps you should like to prove contraception is sinful without appealing either to the Fathers or to Moral Law.

Morally they are equivalent because they involve using sexual intercourse while also trying to prevent the conception of a child. How the prevention occurs is immaterial. This is why the fathers condemn both practices. I am curious, what is it that you believe justifies saying that the manner by which the prevention of conception occurs is significant in distinguishing the two acts?

[truthseeker32]

No, but I don't have to be at the issue at hand.

Maybe so. Can you give an explanation of why NFP and artificial contraception are morally equivalent without appeal to the intended consequence?

That is a rather specific constraint. Perhaps you should like to prove contraception is sinful without appealing either to the Fathers or to Moral Law.

Morally they are equivalent because they involve using sexual intercourse while also trying to prevent the conception of a child. How the prevention occurs is immaterial. This is why the fathers condemn both practices. I am curious, what is it that you believe justifies saying that the manner by which the prevention of conception occurs is significant in distinguishing the two acts?

Trying to prove something is sinful without moral law is like trying to prove to someone that 2+2=4 without using mathematics; moral law is absolutely necessary for discussions of morality. I don't think the same is true regarding the Fathers, although they are very important. A dialogue about what is morally right and wrong can take place without appeal to the Fathers, whereas it cannot take place without a standard of morality.

Your explanation above relies on the intended objective. I am hoping to find ways of discussing the acts themselves without appeal to the intended objective.

I personally think there is a difference between the two because when a couple has sexual intercourse during an infertile period they are in no way changing the sexual act itself. Nothing artificial is put in the way. When artificial contraception is used the act is completely changed because something foreign to the natural sexual act has been added.

There is a difference between active prevention and passive prevention. For instance, if you were a spy and needed to prevent a guard from revealing your whereabouts you could simply stay hidden until you have a moment to flee safely. This may be a difficult endeavor that requires patience. The alternative may be harming or killing the guard so that he will not draw attention to your presence. While in both cases your intent is to prevent being found out the two ways of accomplishing this have significant moral difference. In this case we can say that it is better to wait and escape undetected than to kill someone to remain undetected. Can we also say it is better to have sex without changing/ interfering with the act without appealing to the intent? In other words, are actions moral or immoral in and of themselves, regardless of the intent?

[ialmisry]

No, but I don't have to be at the issue at hand.

Maybe so. Can you give an explanation of why NFP and artificial contraception are morally equivalent without appeal to the intended consequence?

That is a rather specific constraint. Perhaps you should like to prove contraception is sinful without appealing either to the Fathers or to Moral Law.

Morally they are equivalent because they involve using sexual intercourse while also trying to prevent the conception of a child. How the prevention occurs is immaterial. This is why the fathers condemn both practices. I am curious, what is it that you believe justifies saying that the manner by which the prevention of conception occurs is significant in distinguishing the two acts?

Trying to prove something is sinful without moral law is like trying to prove to someone that 2+2=4 without using mathematics; moral law is absolutely necessary for discussions of morality. I don't think the same is true regarding the Fathers, although they are very important. A dialogue about what is morally right and wrong can take place without appeal to the Fathers, whereas it cannot take place without a standard of morality.

Your explanation above relies on the intended objective. I am hoping to find ways of discussing the acts themselves without appeal to the intended objective.

I personally think there is a difference between the two because when a couple has sexual intercourse during an infertile period they are in no way changing the sexual act itself. Nothing artificial is put in the way. When artificial contraception is used the act is completely changed because something foreign to the natural sexual act has been added.

An artificial distinction.  LOL.  You're talking as if there were a check list for a "natural sexual act." Your model, for instance, wouldn't deal with coitus interruptus, which I'm assUming you would also see as "artificial."

There is a difference between active prevention and passive prevention. For instance, if you were a spy and needed to prevent a guard from revealing your whereabouts you could simply stay hidden until you have a moment to flee safely. This may be a difficult endeavor that requires patience. The alternative may be harming or killing the guard so that he will not draw attention to your presence. While in both cases your intent is to prevent being found out the two ways of accomplishing this have significant moral difference. In this case we can say that it is better to wait and escape undetected than to kill someone to remain undetected.

and what do you do if detected?

See?  No difference.

Can we also say it is better to have sex without changing/ interfering with the act without appealing to the intent? In other words, are actions moral or immoral in and of themselves, regardless of the intent?

That's like the "difference" between beheading someone, and driving him into the wilderness where he dies.  He still ends up dead. To think otherwise is to engage in casuistry (or Jesuitry) to convince a guilty conscience it is innocent.

[truthseeker32]

An artificial distinction.  LOL.  You're talking as if there were a check list for a "natural sexual act." Your model, for instance, wouldn't deal with coitus interruptus, which I'm assUming you would also see as "artificial."

I wouldn't use the term artificial in such a case, but compromised, but this isn't very important.

and what do you do if detected?

See?  No difference.

Claiming that there is no difference is jumping ahead a little bit, dont you think? A situation where one can either escape when the coast is clear or instead murder a guard to save time is completely different than a situation where a person's life is in immediate danger, and thus the moral dilemma is different.

That's like the "difference" between beheading someone, and driving him into the wilderness where he dies.  He still ends up dead. To think otherwise is to engage in casuistry (or Jesuitry) to convince a guilty conscience it is innocent.

I disagree. In your analogy beheading is akin to artificial contraception, leaving him to die as NFP, where intending his death is akin to the intent to avoid conception. In both cases you are actively doing something to lead a man to his death. A better analogy would be Personally beheading someone vs. standing by and letting someone else do the beheading. In both cases you may be held morally culpable, but my inclination is to think most people would say the person actually ctting off another person's head is more in the wrong than the person merely not preventing the beheading.

Because we have agreed that there is nothing wrong with aiming to avoid conception for good reasons I think a better analogy would be  that of losing weight that I brought up earlier. We both agree that it may be at times good or permissible to lose weight, but losing weight through dieting is good whereas losing weight through bulimia is bad and harmful. In this case we see that the morality of the actions is not determined by the intent, but by the means itself. The question in this analogy is whether bulimia is bad only because of the physical harm it causes, or if there is something bad about interfering with the eating and digestion process itself. Are things only moral if they are beneficial? Are we to be utilitarians?

[stanley123]

No, but I don't have to be at the issue at hand.

Maybe so. Can you give an explanation of why NFP and artificial contraception are morally equivalent without appeal to the intended consequence?

That is a rather specific constraint. Perhaps you should like to prove contraception is sinful without appealing either to the Fathers or to Moral Law.

Morally they are equivalent because they involve using sexual intercourse while also trying to prevent the conception of a child. How the prevention occurs is immaterial. This is why the fathers condemn both practices. I am curious, what is it that you believe justifies saying that the manner by which the prevention of conception occurs is significant in distinguishing the two acts?

Trying to prove something is sinful without moral law is like trying to prove to someone that 2+2=4 without using mathematics; moral law is absolutely necessary for discussions of morality. I don't think the same is true regarding the Fathers, although they are very important. A dialogue about what is morally right and wrong can take place without appeal to the Fathers, whereas it cannot take place without a standard of morality.

Your explanation above relies on the intended objective. I am hoping to find ways of discussing the acts themselves without appeal to the intended objective.

I personally think there is a difference between the two because when a couple has sexual intercourse during an infertile period they are in no way changing the sexual act itself. Nothing artificial is put in the way. When artificial contraception is used the act is completely changed because something foreign to the natural sexual act has been added.

There is a difference between active prevention and passive prevention. For instance, if you were a spy and needed to prevent a guard from revealing your whereabouts you could simply stay hidden until you have a moment to flee safely. This may be a difficult endeavor that requires patience. The alternative may be harming or killing the guard so that he will not draw attention to your presence. While in both cases your intent is to prevent being found out the two ways of accomplishing this have significant moral difference. In this case we can say that it is better to wait and escape undetected than to kill someone to remain undetected. Can we also say it is better to have sex without changing/ interfering with the act without appealing to the intent? In other words, are actions moral or immoral in and of themselves, regardless of the intent?

But are you not actively preventing conception of a child when you actively use artificially man made thermometers to determine when is the best time to avoid conception?

[truthseeker32]

But are you not actively preventing conception of a child when you actively use artificially man made thermometers to determine when is the best time to avoid conception?

There is no action you are committing that prevents conception. It is the absence of an action that prevents conception. It is sort of like a hole. A hole exists when there is an absence of something. When a couple uses NFP their actions are never contraceptive, only their intent.