Author Topic: On marrying a second wife  (Read 24391 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #450 on: June 26, 2017, 08:18:20 AM »
Just so you know I do not support restricting sexuality in marriage but I'm sure no one wants to hear my reasons now though they are good reasons in my opinion. I just will not support that position because it may cause harm to marriages but people may not need my opinion. And I still don't think God allows for any impurity but I think it is pure
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 08:18:50 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #451 on: June 26, 2017, 12:02:06 PM »
Yes I am a stumbling block but more so not being honest

Just because some Christians are hypocrites that does not mean Christianity is false for some are not and Jesus never had sin nor could any find a sin in Him so they are still responsible but we should not give them a flimsy reason to reject God. We are supposed to be the light of the world and by our good deeds let others praise God. We are the salt of the earth if we become as the world our preaching becomes useless and in other words trampled underfoot by men 

1 Peter 2:11-12

11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, 12 that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Woe to the world because of offenses. Offenses must come but woe through whom they come. They mostly come from those who reject God but we can also hurt our loved ones by not living godly and so encouraging them to do the same because of their love to you as well as praying for them. As Samuel said far be it from me to sin against God by ceasing to pray for you. But I will teach you the good way 

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #452 on: June 26, 2017, 06:06:46 PM »
I replied this to someone here
https://www.christianforums.com/blogs/other-peoples-sticks.54269/

I have written somewhere else on the net that a woman who commited adultery can not remarry but not the innocent one
I guess I could have understood Jesus words wrong. Jesus said a divorced woman who marries another commits adultery this includes a woman who divorces her husband and marries another and a woman divorced by her husband because of cheating. I think Jesus might have been saying an unlawful divorce and remarriage is adultery but not a lawful one but I could be wrong. I also think it is fair that a woman divorced by her husband can not remarry until her husband remarries. If a woman has not actually repented of adultery I don't think she is permitted to remarry. She can not think her former husband is less good than her new one. However my church the coptic church I thought seemed to teach the adulterer can never remarry but not the Eastern Orthodox. I think it is a more perfect repentance but not required. I hope I said no error
I thought for some reason it is good to punish the adulterer and they would have no temptation to sin but maybe not

Offline Sharbel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #453 on: July 03, 2017, 04:09:27 AM »
Are they actually blissfully ignorant of their marriages' invalidity in the eyes of God until such a time that sufficient marital strife reveals the truth?
Regrettably, the Roman Church will only look at the validity of a marriage after civil divorce.  A cynical might wonder why the Church recognizes the validity of civil divorce, but I won't go there.  A more genuine pastoral approach would be if the Church would help couples in struggle.  Not only by offering professional counseling respecting Catholic beliefs, which most dioceses fail to provide, but also by investigating the validity of marriage before divorce.  Methinks that more than zero couples would give up the idea of divorce if they found out that they had a valid marriage and perhaps decide to renew it.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #454 on: July 03, 2017, 04:13:16 AM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of.
I personally know of cases where a priest waived the vetitum , without consulting his bishop or anyone, or where it merely required the person to go to one counseling session before another marriage.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #455 on: July 03, 2017, 04:22:47 AM »
It's sophistry and legal fiction.
Accusing the Roman Church of sophistry would not be fair, but of favoring legal fictions, it would.  Of course, resorting to legal fictions might require sophistic actions which would contradict the spirit of the legal fictions.  For instance, the Church doesn't recognize divorce, but requires one to investigate the validity of the marriage dissolved civilly; the Church doesn't recognize remarriage, but requires the previous one to be declared null and void before marrying a couple again.  People inside and outside the Church do catch the sophistry in her actions and can hardly be blamed for questioning, in the face of them, her legal fiction as acrobatic rhetoric.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #456 on: July 04, 2017, 11:00:49 AM »
Pope Francis said Thursday that many sacramental marriages today are not valid, because couples do not enter into them with a proper understanding of permanence and commitment.

While he initially said in unscripted comments that “the great majority of our sacramental marriages are null,” he later approved a revision of these remarks.
Which begs the question whether Pope Francis was affirming the Magisterium at first, at last or in correcting the former.  But I digress...


However, Pope Francis may be tapping into his experience as a parish priest and diocesan bishop.  Methinks that the practice by the Latin American Catholic Church is not different from the American one when dealing with couples seeking the sacrament of marriage.  More than 90% of them are waddling in the mortal sin of fornication and more than 80% of them are committing the scandal of cohabitation.  The typical approach of parish priests is to marry them ASAP to remove them from a state of serious sin and scandal, often finding themselves unable to request even a modicum of repentance, such as refraining from sexual relations or living apart until marriage, lest the Christian couple be married by a justice of peace or forego marriage forthright.


In my opinion, this is a poor witness to the sacrament by the Catholic Church, for it's not a magic powder to be sprinkled over a relationship to turn it into a means of grace.  Without metanoia, how could the couple cooperate with grace?  To me, it's no surprise that most annulments are affirmed when 90% of the couples are rushed into marriage by well meaning, though imprudent priests.
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #457 on: July 15, 2017, 01:30:19 PM »
Can the Orthodox Way End the Divorce and Remarriage Debate? by INES A. MURZAKU
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2017/can-orthodox-way-end-debate-divorce-remarriage

The reason that Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarried because of the Byzantine Empire divorce law???
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #458 on: July 15, 2017, 01:40:08 PM »
Can the Orthodox Way End the Divorce and Remarriage Debate? by INES A. MURZAKU
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2017/can-orthodox-way-end-debate-divorce-remarriage

The reason that Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarried because of the Byzantine Empire divorce law???
Anthony, this is an important point. Marriage is a sacrament, indissoluble. The Orthodox got it wrong unfortunately. There's no way around facing that truth.
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Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #459 on: July 15, 2017, 01:42:04 PM »
Marriage is a sacrament, indissoluble. The Orthodox got it wrong unfortunately. There's no way around facing that truth.

I'm sure one of your marriage tribunals can find a way.
Quote
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #460 on: July 15, 2017, 01:44:54 PM »
Marriage is a sacrament, indissoluble. The Orthodox got it wrong unfortunately. There's no way around facing that truth.

I'm sure one of your marriage tribunals can find a way.
You know very well that this is not true. They may find that a valid marriage was not established in the first place, yes. You know all of this, probably much better than I do. Why do you keep repeating the same distortions of truth over and over again?
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #461 on: July 15, 2017, 01:45:20 PM »
Marriage is a sacrament, indissoluble. The Orthodox got it wrong unfortunately. There's no way around facing that truth.

I'm sure one of your marriage tribunals can find a way.
You know very well that this is not true. They may find that a valid marriage was not established in the first place, yes. You know all of this, probably much better than I do. Why do you keep repeating the same distortions of truth over and over again?

And there it is!
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #462 on: July 15, 2017, 01:48:24 PM »
Marriage is a sacrament, indissoluble. The Orthodox got it wrong unfortunately. There's no way around facing that truth.

I'm sure one of your marriage tribunals can find a way.
You know very well that this is not true. They may find that a valid marriage was not established in the first place, yes. You know all of this, probably much better than I do. Why do you keep repeating the same distortions of truth over and over again?

And there it is!
There is ... what? I assume this is some kind of joke which I fail to grasp.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #463 on: July 15, 2017, 01:56:03 PM »
Marriage is a sacrament, indissoluble. The Orthodox got it wrong unfortunately. There's no way around facing that truth.

I'm sure one of your marriage tribunals can find a way.
You know very well that this is not true. They may find that a valid marriage was not established in the first place, yes. You know all of this, probably much better than I do. Why do you keep repeating the same distortions of truth over and over again?

And there it is!
There is ... what? I assume this is some kind of joke which I fail to grasp.

Annulment acts like a joke, but it's more of a sacrilegious manipulation.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #464 on: July 15, 2017, 02:10:15 PM »
Divorce and Remarriage from Augustine to Zwingli
ow Christian understanding about marriage has changed—and stayed the same—through history.
BY MICHAEL GORMAN| AUGUST 31, 2000
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/augustweb-only/46.0c.htm
"Marriage as a sacrament

Augustine was the first theologian to call Christian marriage a sacrament, or means of grace. He based his argument in part on the use of the Latin word sacramentum for the Greek word mysterion in Ephesians 5. He opposed those who wanted to allow marriage of the innocent party in cases of adultery and made the indissolubility of Christian marriage, even after adultery, the standard of the Western church.

The Eastern churches, under the influence of imperial legislation, were more lenient. They generally permitted divorce and remarriage for adultery and other serious offenses. For a while during the early Middle Ages, a few church councils in the West began allowing remarriage after adultery or lengthy separations.

Augustine's position, however, eventually carried the day in the West, and a medieval consensus on marital sacramentality and indissolubility developed, receiving Thomas Aquinas's stamp of approval in the thirteenth century. During the same period, a very limited alternative to divorce developed. This was the procedure of "annulment," the official pronouncement that a marriage bond never existed, despite outward appearances to the contrary."
l

There is an essay from Christianity Today. Well, this essay was written by Protestant. However, I think this essay is kind of interesting  for us to understand the marriage.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 02:11:17 PM by Anthony1986 »
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #465 on: July 15, 2017, 02:12:08 PM »
Christianity Today isn't the source you want.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #466 on: July 15, 2017, 02:13:01 PM »
Christianity Today isn't the source you want.

Why not? Because it is a Protestant magazine???
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #467 on: July 15, 2017, 02:14:21 PM »
The Orthodox position is perfectly biblical and has been discussed in such terms earlier in the thread. Regardless, Rome does not treat marriages as indissoluble, at all; they merely add deceit and confusion to the dissolution.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #468 on: July 15, 2017, 02:15:06 PM »
Christianity Today isn't the source you want.

Why not? Because it is a Protestant magazine???

Because it's a clueless rag, not an orthodox journal or chronicle.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Sharbel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #469 on: July 16, 2017, 12:41:06 AM »
They may find that a valid marriage was not established in the first place, yes.
Still, we need to recognize that, since Eastern Catholic Churches still hold the theological understanding of the sacrament of marriage as ministered by a priest and not by the betrothed, most causes for annulment make no sense to these Churches.  Especially, when Pope Francis acknowledged this by the recent change in Roman Canon Law about requiring a priest when one of the connubial party is not Roman.  It reeks of legal fiction, IMO.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #470 on: July 16, 2017, 04:18:33 AM »
The Orthodox position is perfectly biblical and has been discussed in such terms earlier in the thread. Regardless, Rome does not treat marriages as indissoluble, at all; they merely add deceit and confusion to the dissolution.
Perfectly biblical, is it? Then let's go Protestant-mode: Exactly where does the bible say you can marry up to three times, but not more?
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #471 on: July 16, 2017, 06:37:33 AM »
They may find that a valid marriage was not established in the first place, yes.
Still, we need to recognize that, since Eastern Catholic Churches still hold the theological understanding of the sacrament of marriage as ministered by a priest and not by the betrothed, most causes for annulment make no sense to these Churches.  Especially, when Pope Francis acknowledged this by the recent change in Roman Canon Law about requiring a priest when one of the connubial party is not Roman.  It reeks of legal fiction, IMO.

I am always curious, how does the annulment system works in Eastern Rite Catholic Churches???
 
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #472 on: July 16, 2017, 11:57:33 AM »
The Orthodox position is perfectly biblical and has been discussed in such terms earlier in the thread. Regardless, Rome does not treat marriages as indissoluble, at all; they merely add deceit and confusion to the dissolution.
Perfectly biblical, is it? Then let's go Protestant-mode: Exactly where does the bible say you can marry up to three times, but not more?

You really can't be bothered to read the thread you're posting in, huh? This is discussed even with references above.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #473 on: July 16, 2017, 12:06:29 PM »
The Orthodox position is perfectly biblical and has been discussed in such terms earlier in the thread. Regardless, Rome does not treat marriages as indissoluble, at all; they merely add deceit and confusion to the dissolution.
Perfectly biblical, is it? Then let's go Protestant-mode: Exactly where does the bible say you can marry up to three times, but not more?

You really can't be bothered to read the thread you're posting in, huh? This is discussed even with references above.
Sure. I read most of this thread and also posted sporadically. I don't want a lengthy explanation how you guys understand marriage or which council or church father has what to say on the matter. If you provide here the bible quote which allows up to exactly three marriages, I will shut up for good in this thread.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #474 on: July 16, 2017, 01:08:23 PM »
The Orthodox position is perfectly biblical and has been discussed in such terms earlier in the thread. Regardless, Rome does not treat marriages as indissoluble, at all; they merely add deceit and confusion to the dissolution.
Perfectly biblical, is it? Then let's go Protestant-mode: Exactly where does the bible say you can marry up to three times, but not more?

You really can't be bothered to read the thread you're posting in, huh? This is discussed even with references above.
Sure. I read most of this thread and also posted sporadically. I don't want a lengthy explanation how you guys understand marriage or which council or church father has what to say on the matter. If you provide here the bible quote which allows up to exactly three marriages, I will shut up for good in this thread.

So you've already read the biblical exegesis in the thread (supposedly), and so you (supposedly) are already in possession of the knowledge you're pretending you require, and you just want to be clever?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #475 on: July 16, 2017, 01:33:36 PM »
The Orthodox position is perfectly biblical and has been discussed in such terms earlier in the thread. Regardless, Rome does not treat marriages as indissoluble, at all; they merely add deceit and confusion to the dissolution.
Perfectly biblical, is it? Then let's go Protestant-mode: Exactly where does the bible say you can marry up to three times, but not more?

You really can't be bothered to read the thread you're posting in, huh? This is discussed even with references above.
Sure. I read most of this thread and also posted sporadically. I don't want a lengthy explanation how you guys understand marriage or which council or church father has what to say on the matter. If you provide here the bible quote which allows up to exactly three marriages, I will shut up for good in this thread.

So you've already read the biblical exegesis in the thread (supposedly), and so you (supposedly) are already in possession of the knowledge you're pretending you require, and you just want to be clever?
No. But I let it drop. It's no use unfortunately.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #476 on: July 16, 2017, 05:02:31 PM »
Can the Orthodox Way End the Divorce and Remarriage Debate? by INES A. MURZAKU
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2017/can-orthodox-way-end-debate-divorce-remarriage

The reason that Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarried because of the Byzantine Empire divorce law???
Ultramontanist sanctimony projected.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #477 on: July 16, 2017, 06:13:05 PM »
I'm pretty sure the "Byzantine Empire divorce law" was put in the hands of the Church, not vice-versa.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Sharbel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #478 on: July 16, 2017, 06:44:29 PM »
I am always curious, how does the annulment system works in Eastern Rite Catholic Churches???
AFAIK, the very same way as in the Latin Church.  While this systems agrees with Latin theology of the sacrament of marriage, it does not agree with the Eastern one.


Just like Americanism was famously condemned as a heresy by Leo XIII, the Latin Church often resorts to the same methods and tenets.  Of course, I will not hold my breath until the day that Latinism is condemned as heresy.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #479 on: July 20, 2017, 08:48:03 AM »
Marriage, Divorce & Remarriage in Orthodoxy
Bishop Athenagoras (Peckstadt) of Sinope[1]

International Congress
Catholic University of Leuven (18-20 April 2005)

1. INTRODUCTION

The question is often asked what the Orthodox position is on marriage. The answer to this question should be sought in the Orthodox teaching on the “mystery or the sacrament” of marriage. We also know that the Roman Catholic Church considers marriage as a sacrament. There is however a very important difference which should be clarified here. In the first place, the Roman Catholic Church holds that the bride and bridegroom execute the marriage themselves, in their vows to each other. In the Orthodox Church it is the priest or the bishop who consecrates the marriage, who calls upon God in the name of the community, and asks that the Holy Spirit be sent down (epiclesis) on the man and woman and in this way make them “into one flesh”. In addition marriage is for the Orthodox Church rather a spiritual path, a seeking after God, the mystery of oneness and love, the preparatory portrayal of the Kingdom of God, than a necessity for reproduction.

2. THE CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE: MYSTERY — SACRAMENT[2]

Marriage is a mystery or sacrament that has been instituted with God’s blessing during creation. The chosen people saw it then as a mystery that had its beginnings at the divine creation. This is confirmed by Christ who says: “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female’. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and two will become one flesh”. (Mark 10, 6-8).

According to the Holy Scriptures marriage is built on:

the distinction, at the first creation of man, between man and woman (“Also God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them”, Gen. 1:27)
the creation of the woman out of Adam’s rib (Gen 2:21-24);
the blessing of God on the first created with the words: “be fruitful and increase in number” (Gen. 1:27-28).


These three elements make marriage a spiritual praxis par excellence, not only due to the simple covenant between two people, but especially due to the fact that it is an expression of God’s will. The natural covenant of marriage becomes as it were also a divine covenant, hence also its fully mystical character which the church emphasizes. The principal and therefore the most essential element of marriage is the joining of each person with one single person of the opposite sex. This element of one single person in marriage is maintained even after the fall of the first created creatures in the Old Testament, although this may not always have been adhered to in practise.[3] This element of marriage assumes a resemblance to the relationship between God and the chosen people. This element of one single person in marriage is confirmed by Christ’s teaching on marriage.

Paul is the first to understand the essence of Christ’s teaching on marriage and its sanctity. He describes it as “a great mystery in Christ and in the Church” (Eph. 5, 32) The definition “in Christ and in the Church” means, according to Paul, that the spiritual bond of love, of commitment, and of the reciprocal submission of the partners — which is the bond of their complete oneness — only exists when it conforms to the love of Christ for His Church (Eph. 5, 22-33). The relationship of the partners that grows out of marriage is, in other words, so essential, so intense and so spiritual, as the existing relationship between Christ and the Church.[4] The oneness of the Church — as community of the baptised — with Christ, and its maintenance, takes place through the sacrament of the Divine Eucharist. This is the centre of all the sacraments and puts mankind in an eschatological perspective. In this way marriage also “transfigures” the oneness of man and wife into a new reality, namely, seen in the perspective of life in Christ.[5] This is why the apostle Paul does not hesitate to call this decisive step in human existence “mystery” (or … sacrament) in the image of Christ and His Church. This is the only reason why a truly Christian marriage can be unique, “because it is a Mystery of God’s Kingdom, that introduces mankind to eternal joy and eternal love”.[6] This oneness — brought about with the sacrament of marriage — is no one-sided action of the Church. Man is not called after all to participate passively in the grace of God, but as God’s co-worker. And even when man becomes a co-worker, he remains subject to the weakness and sinfulness of human existence.

In this light even reproduction (1 Tim. 2, 15) is seen as man’s co-operation with creation. The mystery or sacrament of marriage becomes immediately related to the mystery of life, of the birth of human souls, of immortality and of their death.

3. THE PURPOSE OF MARRIAGE

Here it becomes evident that the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church differ in their understanding of the purpose of marriage. In orthodox theological thinking this is firstly the reciprocal love, the relationship and the help between the marriage partners with view to their completion in Christ. Only subsequently comes the restraining of their sexual passion[7] and the reproduction of the human race.[8] It is remarkable that in the New Testament we find no reference relating marriage to reproduction. In the Roman Catholic Church it is evident that the ultimate purpose of marriage is “procreation” or reproduction. To see reproduction as the principal purpose of marriage is a narrow perspective on the conjugal life of man and wife. What value does sexual intercourse have between man and wife in the case of sterility or after the menopause, or if the wife is medically unable to have any more children? It is certain that the married couple have precedence above the family, however praiseworthy the purpose of family is.[9] The story of the establishing of marriage is found in the second chapter of the book Genesis, which deals with the fact that “a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh” (Gen. 2, 24), without mention of reproduction. The Holy John Chrysostom refers to this: “There are two reasons for which marriage was established …to cause the man to be satisfied with one single wife and to give him children, but it is the first which is the most important…As for reproduction, marriage does not necessarily include this…the proof is to be found in the many marriages for which having children is not possible. This is why the primary reason for marriage is to regulate the sexual life, especially now that the human race has already populated the whole world". [10]

4. MARRIAGE AS THE HOUSE CHURCH

The Church Fathers say it characteristically: “Where Christ is, there is the Church”, which demonstrates that the marriage relationship has a church character. This is why Paul speaks of “the church that meets at their house” Rom. 16, 5) and John Chrysostom of the “small Church”.[11] At Cana in Galilee Jesus “revealed his glory” (John 2, 11) in the womb of a “house church”. Paul Evdokimov suggests, “this marriage, as it were, is the marriage of the bridal couple with Christ. He is the one who leads and – according to the Church Fathers   does so in all Christian marriages".[12] The reciprocal love of man and wife is a communal love for God. Every moment of their lives becomes a glorifying of God. John Chrysostom says it this way: “Marriage is a mystical icon of the Church”.[13]

5. HOLINESS AND INDISSOLUBILITY OF MARRIAGE

We have already said that marriage in its purest form is a natural order according to divine intention. It is the basis of the family, which is the community where man’s noblest feelings are able to develop. Marriage is in its essence a holy institution and its holiness has been sealed through the Church, which views marriage as a divine institution and mystery.[14] It is not therefore the agreement and free will of the marriage partners that establishes the marriage, but it is the grace of God in particular which is essential, and this is given through the approval of the Church, in the person of the bishop.[15]

Doctrine regarding the indissolubility of marriage is based on its holiness. The holiness and indissolubility of marriage exalt monogamy. References are often made to the Old Testament in this regard (Mal. 2, 14).

But as mystery or sacrament the Christian marriage is undoubtedly confronted with the “fallen” state of mankind. It is presented as the unachievable ideal. But there is a distinct difference between a “sacrament” and an “ideal”, for the first is “an experience involving not only man, but one in which he acts in communion with God”, in this he becomes a partner of the Holy Spirit while remaining human with his weaknesses and faults.[16]

The theory of the indissolubility of marriage has a strong pedagogical significance. The motivation Christ gives is a command. Those who commit themselves to the covenant of marriage should do all they can not to separate, as they have God to thank for their oneness. But the additional motivation: “Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” (Mark 10, 9; Math. 19, 6) does not signify a magical adherence. In every mystery or sacrament, excluding baptism, the exertion of man’s free will is required. The “not separate” is a divine request, as is “do not kill”. But man is free and can dissolve his marriage and kill his fellow man. In both cases he commits grievous sin.[17]

The Church has been faithful throughout the centuries to the principle referred to by Paul, that a second marriage is an aberration of the Christian statute. In this sense the orthodox doctrine confirms not only the “indissolubility” of marriage, but also its uniqueness. Every true marriage can be uniquely the “only” one.

6. DIVORCE

The problem of divorce is a very delicate question as it often touches on a painful human reality.

The tradition of the Church of the first centuries — which continues to have authority for the Orthodox Church — put the emphasis very strongly on two related points:

the “uniqueness” of the authentic Christian marriage,
the permanence of married conjugal life.
We may recall here the analogy that Paul makes between the unity of Christ and his Church and that of the bride and bridegroom. This analogy that is as it were at the root of the mystery assumes the real and continuing unity of the married couple, which therefore totally excludes a simultaneous polygamy and views one single marriage as the ideal.

Divorce does not heal the diseased marriage but kills it. It is not a positive action or intervention. It is about dissolving the “mini-Church” that has been formed through the marriage relationship.[18] The Holy Scripture attributes divorce to the callousness of man.[19] This is seen as a fall and sin. And yet the Orthodox Church can however permit divorce and remarriage on the grounds of interpretation of what the Lord says in Matt. 19:9: “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.” According to Bishop Kallistos Ware divorce is an action of “economia” and “expression of compassion” of the Church toward sinful man. “Since Christ, according to the Matthaean account, allowed an exception to His general ruling about the indissolubility of marriage, the Orthodox Church also is willing to allow an exception”.[20]

A question we can ask ourselves is whether Christ considered marriage as being indissoluble? We need to be very clear in this as when Christ teaches that marriage may not be dissolved that does not mean that He is stating that it cannot occur. The completeness of the marriage relationship can be tainted by erroneous behaviour. In other words, it is the offence that breaks the bond. The divorce is ultimately a result of this break. This is also the teaching of the Eastern Church fathers. A quotation from the testimony of Cyril of Alexandria will be sufficient to make our point here: “It is not the letters of divorce that dissolve the marriage in relation God but the errant behaviour”.[21]

The violation of a marriage relationship is divided into two groups:

those resulting from adultery (unfaithfulness and immoral behaviour)
those proceeding from the absence of one of the partners (this absence must however have certain distinctives).
According to the spirit of Orthodoxy the unity of the married couple cannot be maintained through the virtue of juridical obligation alone; the formal unity must be consistent with an internal symphony.[22] The problem arises when it is no longer possible to salvage anything of this symphony, for “then the bond that was originally considered indissoluble is already dissolved and the law can offer nothing to replace grace and can neither heal nor resurrect, nor say: ‘Stand up and go’”.[23]

The Church recognizes that there are cases in which marriage life has no content or may even lead to loss of the soul. The Holy John Chrysostom says in this regard that: “better to break the covenant than to lose one’s soul”.[24] Nevertheless, the Orthodox Church sees divorce as a tragedy due to human weakness and sin.

7. REMARRIAGE

Despite the fact that the Church condemns sin, she also desires to be an aid to those who suffer and for whom she may allow a second marriage. This is certainly the case when the marriage has ceased to be a reality. A possible second marriage is therefore only permitted because of “human weakness”. As the apostle Paul says concerning the unmarried and widows: “If they can not control themselves, they should marry” (1 Cor. 7, 9). It is permitted as a pastoral concession in the context of “economia,” to the human weakness and the corrupt world in which we live.

There is in other words a close relationship in every dimension between divorce and the possibility of remarriage. It is important here to explain a fundamental element of the Orthodox Church’s doctrine, namely that the dissolving of a marriage relationship does not ipso facto grant the right to enter into another marriage. As we look back to the time of the primitive Church, the Church of the first centuries, then we will have to agree that the Church did not have any juridical authority with regard to marriage, and did not therefore, make any statement concerning their validity. The Holy Basil the Great, for example, referred not to a rule but to usage, as far as this problem was concerned.[25] Speaking concerning the man who had been cheated by his wife, he declares that the man is “pardonable” (to be excused) should he remarry. It is good to remember that the Orthodox Church has in general always had a sense of reluctance regarding second marriages. It would subsequently be completely wrong to assert that orthodox Christians may marry two or three times!

Orthodox canon law can permit a second and even a third marriage “in economia”, but strictly forbids a fourth. In theory divorce is only recognized in the case of adultery, but in practise is also recognised in light of other reasons. There is a list of causes of divorce acceptable to the Orthodox Church. In practise the bishops sometimes apply “economia” in a liberal way. By the way, divorce and remarriage are only permitted in the context of “economia”, that is, out of pastoral care, out of understanding for weakness. A second or third marriage will always be a deviation from the “ideal and unique marriage”, but often a fresh opportunity[26] to correct a mistake”.[27]

8. ECONOMIA

The question arises here, what is this “economia”[28] exactly? In a theological, scholarly contribution, the present Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos, while still the Metropolitan of Philadelphia, explained in a clear and concise way what “economia” is. He suggests that it is generally accepted that the ecclesiastical economia is an image of the divine economia and love and kindness. That the economia is as old as the Church itself is evident from a reading of the New Testament. This is very clear for example in Acts 16, 3 “so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek”. However the economia in the Orthodox Church has never been systematically or officially defined. “It concerns a characteristic, a true privilege and precious treasure of the Church”.[29] In the pan orthodox meetings of the 20th Century there have been attempts to give a definition to economia, but in the end this has been abandoned, “because economia is something that is rather experienced than described and defined…in the Orthodox Church, in which it is a characteristic and ancient privilege".[30]

But now the question remains, what is “economia”? Well, according to the canon law of the Orthodox Church economia is “the suspension of the absolute and strict applications of canon and church regulations in the governing and the life of the Church, without subsequently compromising the dogmatic limitations. The application of economia only takes place through the official church authorities and is only applicable for a particular case.”[31] This is allowed for exceptional and severe reasons, but creates no precedent. The Church, which continues to extend Christ’s redeeming work in the world, has on the basis of the Lord’s commandments, and of the apostles, determined a number of canons. Through these the Church helps the believers to come to salvation. But it should be noticed that these rules are not applied on a juridical basis, for the Church always holds in mind what the Lord Himself has said: “The Sabbath is made for man, and not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2, 27).

A canon is a “rule” or “guide” for the service of worship, the sacraments, and the governing of the Church. There are canons determined by the apostles, the Church Fathers, the local, regional and the general or ecumenical councils. Only the bishop, as head of the local Church, enforces them. He can enforce them rigidly (“akrivia”), or flexibly (“economia”), but “precision” is the norm. Once the particular circumstance has past - that demanded a conceding and accommodating judgement – “akrivia” assumes once again her full force. It cannot be that the “economia”, which was necessary in a specific situation, should become an example and should be later be retained as the rule.[32] The “economia” is for the Orthodox Church a notion that cannot be compared to “dispensation” in the Roman Catholic Church. Dispensation is an anticipated exception, which provides a juridical norm parallel to the official regulation.

Economia is based on Christ’s command to his apostles: “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven” (John 20, 22-23). This is the case when the human marriage experience becomes impossible, due to the spiritual death of love. It is then that the Church – as the Body of Christ – with understanding and compassion and out of personal concern, can apply the “economia” “by accepting the divorce and not rejecting the sinful humanly weak believers, or depriving them from God’s mercy and further grace.”[33] It is the precise goal of economia that the weak person not be irrevocably banned from the church communion, according to Christ’s example, who came, after all, to save the lost.

9. PASTORAL COUNSELING

Before the church authorities acknowledge the divorce in the context of economia, pastoral counselling should be given in each and every case, through which attempt is made to reconcile the married partners. Only when this is no longer possible should permission for remarriage be referred to, provided a form of penance can be imposed, in light of each individual case. In this way the Orthodox Church should take a clear point of view regarding this problem, and priests should be more motivated to take a greater role regarding explanation, counselling and psychological healing.[34]

a. Preparation for marriage

In his book “Marriage: an orthodox perspective” Father John Meyendorff points out the danger of enforced marriages, where the couple themselves have no desire for a positive commitment. It may have been desired as a social happening or whatever. This, and many others, are problems that the priest needs to discuss when he meets the couple to help them prepare for their marriage. He has the responsibility of helping them to understand the meaning and significance of Christian marriage. This meeting may by no means be, or seem to be, an exclusively administrative matter, in which many documents are collected together with the intention of ascertaining the approval of the bishop for the marriage celebration. He also must be on the alert to ensure that no marriages are consecrated where the married couple does not accept its true significance. This is a problem that one frequently encounters with mixed marriages. Strictly speaking, the responsibility for the preparation of marriage lies not only with the priest, but also with the teachers, the parents, and certainly, first and foremost, with the young engaged couple themselves.[35]

For marriage to live, and possibly also to survive, there is need of spiritual life. This spirituality is experienced firstly in the school of the Church itself, where we can participate par excellence in the gifts of grace of the Holy Spirit in the celebration of the sacraments. It is by the way in one of these sacraments, that man and wife become one, or “house-Church”, through the grace of the Holy Spirit. “In the ecclesiological and spiritual perspective which we just referred to, marriage enters into a dynamic action”.[36] The path taken is determined in particular by the married couple themselves, any yet they find themselves in a world “of surprises and miracles”. The path becomes narrower and narrower as it is walked side-by-side, with 2 or 3 children following behind. The path of orthodox spiritual life is “a path of liturgy, mystique, asceticism, and eschatology”.[37] It is the life of and in the Church and this life gives to the married couple and the whole family, another dimension, and another approach to life and to the problems one has to face.

It is very important that the Church provides the correct reflection of everything related to marriage and the family, and their value from the perspective of faith, especially to the youth and future bridal couples and their parents. There are for example, in many diocese of the Orthodox Church in Greece, “schools for parents”, where attention is given specifically to the preparation of their children for marriage. This is also possible through a lecture on this subject.[38]

b. What is the best way to respond to those who are living together and are not yet married?

This problem was cited in a discussion that Metropolitan Stephanos of Tallinn and all Estonia had with Olivier Clément concerning this subject, which has been published in the book “Office and charismas in the Orthodox Church”: “it is true that many young people no longer have this Christian identity to be able to say: “We love each other, therefore we will marry”. They have not as yet committed themselves completely enough to say: “We are going to get married because we as a couple, as a future family, will be a core-group of the Church, and will give an example of evangelical commitment. (…) It happens that young people in this sense experience something worthwhile, something that prepares them for lasting love. For a true love demands that one does not compromise. Each needs to be able to retain his own identity, have his own structure, to be able to truly meet the other. Whatever is at hand, it happens that young people who find themselves in a similar situation, convert and in the end seek a closer relationship with the Church”, so speaks Olivier Clément. And the renown French orthodox theologian continues, saying that the role of the priest is of infinite importance here, immensely in explaining the meaning of love and marriage, immensely in explaining that love is possible, immensely in explaining that the sacrament of marriage can give them great strength, “this will be a strength in receiving the other, in forgiving the other, and therefore of permanence with the other.”[39] What is certain is that one should not be moralising or too severe in these situations with regard to the youth, otherwise one will certainly not be heard.

c. Pastoral approach to the problem of divorce

The church community needs to be vigilant and give sufficient attention to married couples and families that have been affected and disabled by divorce. The married partner who has been abandoned by the other partner finds themself subsequently in a situation of discouragement and loneliness. The fate of the children is often much worse. From pastoral experience we know that the social and psychological assistance is insufficient. They especially need strengthening through a “spiritual and pastoral” approach, which will hopefully again give meaning and significance to their lives.

The Church, as community, can continue to involve them in the liturgical gatherings. It is clear that a discrete commission of love[40] is reserved for every Christian towards those who are divorced. This too is consistent with what the Holy John Chrysostom has called “the sacrament of the brother”. One must certainly avoid judging or condemning one’s brother or sister.

10. CONCLUSION

From what has been said, we bear in mind that marriage is a sacrament or mystery, because it is a living experience of the Kingdom of God. It is an entry into a new life, a communal growth in the Holy Spirit. This new life enters as a gift, not as an obligation. Man is free to enter into this new life through this door or not. But this new life only has meaning if it actually leads to entry into the sacramental life of the Church. Marriage gains perfection when the married couple regularly share in the Eucharist, in the Body of Christ. In this way marriage gains a sanctifying character. This holiness of marriage should however be protected by certain canons, not because this is the spirit of the Church, but in order to demonstrate the ideal for Christians. The Christian doctrine of marriage is a “joyful responsibility”.[41] It demonstrates what it means to be truly human, through which one receives the joy of giving life, in the image of the Creator.

Concerning on the other hand the orthodox perspective on the subtle problem area of divorce and possible remarriage, one needs to say that this is steeped in wisdom. It confirms the primary value of the steadfast and unique Christian marriage, which does not mean that this steadfastness should be seen, in all of life’s circumstances, as the downright irrevocable preservation of a juridical affirmation. The Orthodox Church does not want to shut the door of mercy inexorably, but holds still, to the teaching of the New Testament.[42]

NOTES:

[1] Mgr Athenagoras Peckstadt is the assistant Bishop of the Orthodox Archdiocese of Belgium and Exarch of the Netherlands and Luxembourg (Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople) and studied theology at the Aristoteles University of Thessalonica and at the Ecumenical Institute of Bossey in Geneva.

[2] In Greek mystery has the meaning of sacrament.

[3] It is good to be reminded here of the fact that, in the story of creation, monogamy is assumed to be the norm.

[4] The apostle Paul sees therefore the parallel between the marriage relationship of man and wife and the oneness between the bride the Church and the bridegroom Christ. This is not only as descriptive picture, but also an explanation of the real and essential oneness in the sacrament of marriage. See N. Matsoukas, Dogmatic and symbolic theology, Thessalonica, 1988, pp. 496-497 (in Greek).

[5] G. Mantzaridis, Christian Ethics, Thessalonica, 1995, p. 321 (In Greek).

[6] J. Meyendorff, Marriage: an orthodox perspective, New York, 1975, p.21.

[7] The physical unity — of which the apostle Paul says that they are “temples of the Holy Spirit — is a great deal more than simple pleasure or a remedy for the sexual urge! See Ign. Peckstadt, in Het orthodox huwelijk in Een open venster op de Orthodoxe Kerk, (The orthodox marriage in An open window on the Orthodox Church), Averbode, 2005.

[8] Ch. Catzopoulos, The holy sacrament of marriage — mixed marriages, Athens, 1990, p.39 (in Greek). See also Ch. Vantsos, Marriage and her preparation from an orthodox pastoral point of view, Athens, 1977, pp.83-99 (in Greek).

[9] Ign. Peckstadt, Het orthodox huwelijk in Een open venster op de Orthodoxe Kerk, (The orthodox marriage in An open window on the Orthodox Church), Averbode, 2005.

[10] Speech on marriage. See P. Evdokimov, Le sacerdoce conjugal — essai de théologie orthodoxe du mariage, in Le mariage – églises en dialogue, (The conjugal priesthood – essay on the orthodox theology of marriage, in The marriage – churches and dialogue), Paris, 1966, p. 94.

[11] Homilie 20 on Ephesians; P.G., 62, 143.

[12] P. Evdokimov, Sacrement de l’amour — le mystère conjugal à la manière de la tradition orthodoxe, (Sacrament of love – the conjugal mystery according to the orthodox tradition), Paris, 1962, p. 170.

[13] P.G. 62, 387.

[14] P. Rodopoulos (Metropolitan), Lessons in canon law, Thessalonica, 1993, p. 216 (in Greek).

[15] The Holy Ignatius of Antioch said in his letter to Polycarp: “The men and women who marry, should enter into their unity with the approval of the bishop”, see Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrne, Letters, in coll. Sources Chrétiennes, (Christian Sources) Paris, 1958, p. 177 (A Polycarpe V, 2).

[16] J. Meyendorff, Marriage: an orthodox perspective, New York, 1975, p. 21.

[17] N. Matsoukas, Dogmatic and symbolic theology, Thessalonica, 1988, p. 497 (in Greek).

[18] G. Patronos, Marriage in theology and in life, Athens, 1981, p.119 (in Greek).

[19] “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning” (Matt. 19, 8).

[20] T. Ware (Bishop Kallistos), L’Orthodoxie — l’Eglise des septs conciles, (Orthodoxy – The Church of seven councils), Paris 1997, pp. 380-381.

[21] P.G. 72, 380 D.

[22] See P. L’Huillier (Archbishop), Le divorce selon la théologie et le droit canonique de l’Eglise orthodoxe, in Messager de l’Exarchat du Patriarcat Russe en Europe occidentale, (Divorce according to theology and cannon law in the Orthodox Church in Messenger of the Exarch of the Patriarch of Russia and Western Europe) (no 65), Paris, 1969, pp. 25-36.

[23] P. Evdokimov, Sacrement de l’amour — le mystère conjugal à la manière de la tradition orthodoxe, (Sacrament of love – the conjugal mystery according to the orthodox tradition), Paris, 1962, p. 264.

[24] P.G. 61, 155.

[25] P. L’Huillier (Archbishop), Les sources canoniques de saint Basile, in Messager de l’Exarchat du Patriarcat Russe en Europe occidentale (no 44), (The canon origins of saint Basil, in Messenger of the Exarchat of the Patriarch of Russia and Western Europe), Paris, 1963, pp. 210-217.

[26] Father Meyendorff explained concerning this that: “the Church neither ‘recognised’ nor ‘granted’ divorce. It is seen as a great sin, but the Church has never ceased to offer sinners a ‘new opportunity’ and she was always prepared to receive them again, as long as they were penitent”. See J. Meyendorff, Marriage: an orthodox perspective, New York, 1975, p. 64.

[27] Ign. Peckstadt, Het orthodox huwelijk in Een open venster op de Orthodoxe Kerk, (The orthodox marriage in An open window on the Orthodox Church), Averbode, 2005.

[28] One finds the term “economia” or “oikonomia” — as it is here understood – in the New Testament and in the texts of the Church Fathers and church authors. Even although one does not find a systematic writing concerning this subject by the Church Fathers, it was used by them frequently all the same in the sense of deviating from the precision of the rule. See P. Rodopoulos (Metropolitan), Introduction to the topics of the fifth international congress of the Society for the Law of the Eastern Churches — I. Oikonomia, II Mixed marriages, in Studies I — canon, pastoral, liturgical and various (in Greek), Thessalonica, 1993, p.244. It is a theological concept unique to the Orthodox Church.

[29] B. Archondonis (Ecumenical Patriarch), The problem of oikonomia today, in Kanon, Jahrbuch der Gesellschaft fur das recht der Ostkirchen, (Yearbook of the Society for the law of the Eastern Churches) Vienna, 1987, p. 42.

[30] Ibid., p.40.

[31] P. Rodopoulos (Metropolitan), Oikonomia nach orthodoxem Kirchenricht, (Economia according to the Orthodox Church law), in Studies I — canon, pastoral, liturgical, ecumenical and various (in Greek), Thessalonica, 1993, p. 231.

[32] P. Trembelas, Dogmatique de l”Eglise orthodox catholique, (Dogmatics of the catholic orthodox Church, part III), deel III, Chevetogne 1968, p. 61.

[33] Ign. Peckstadt, Het orthodox huwelijk in Een open venster op de Orthodoxe Kerk, (The orthodox marriage in An open window on the Orthodox Church), Averbode, 2005. See also: Ign. Peckstadt, De economia in de Orthodoxe Kerk, in 25 jaar Orthodoxe Communauteit Heilige Apostel Andreas Gent (1972-1997), (The economia in the Orthodox Church, in 25 years Orthodox Community Holy Apostle Andreas Gent (1972-1997), Gent 1975, p. 65.

[34] J. Meyendorff, Marriage: an orthodox perspective, New York, 1975, p. 65.

[35] Ibid., p. 54-56.

[36] A. Stavropoulos, Concerning marriage and the family, in Snapshots and excursions on paths of pastoral service, part 3, Athens, 1985, p. 116 (in Greek).

[37] Ibid., p. 117.

[38] Ibid., p.118.

[39] S. Charalambidis (Metropolite), Ministères et charismes dans l‘Eglise orthodoxe, (Office and Charismas in the Orthodox Church), Paris, 1988, p. 129-130.

[40] Ign. Peckstadt, Het orthodox huwelijk in Een open venster op de Orthodoxe Kerk, (The orthodox marriage in An open window on the Orthodox Church), Averbode, 2005.

[41] J. Meyendorff, Marriage: an orthodox perspective, New York, 1975, p. 84.

[42] P. L’Huillier (Archbishop), Le divorce selon la théologie et le droit canonique de l’Eglise orthodox, in Messager de l’Exarchat du Patriarcat Russe en Europe occidentale (Divorce according to theology and cannon law in the Orthodox Church in Messenger of the Exarch of the Patriach of Russia and Western Europe) (no 65), Paris, 1969, p. 36.

http://www.uaocamerica.org/sources-of-orthodox-teachin/marriage-divorce--remarriag.html

Very interesting article that explain the Eastern Orthodox view on marriage.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #480 on: July 20, 2017, 11:30:38 AM »
Thanks for this, Anthony 1986.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #481 on: July 21, 2017, 11:08:32 PM »
The Orthodox position is perfectly biblical and has been discussed in such terms earlier in the thread. Regardless, Rome does not treat marriages as indissoluble, at all; they merely add deceit and confusion to the dissolution.
You hit that nail on the head.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #482 on: July 30, 2017, 08:06:23 PM »
Marriage, Divorce & Remarriage in Orthodoxy
Bishop Athenagoras (Peckstadt) of Sinope
Very elucidating.


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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #483 on: August 13, 2017, 08:46:00 AM »
Forgive this as it is badly written and long but I make important points to me
I don't know what I will do or the correct thing to do and what was meant by sexual immorality because in other gospels it states simply if anyone divorces and marries another he commits adultery
In the Catholic Church if I understand correctly if you have a prenuptial agreement that if you divorce you won't divide money equally then your marriage was never valid and I guess they will give an annulment. Even real abuse is not a reason for divorce in the Catholic Church but maybe  they will find a reason to give an annulment. I think it should be a reason but it is not fair to change Church teaching for catholic members who didn't expect to be divorced who got divorced from supposed real abuse which wasn't real.
So if the correct response is to never divorce until death of spouse I hope God don't smite the sinner spouse and maybe make his chances of repentance less. So expect not to be remarried for a long time if ever.
Thankfully there is the option of civil divorce. Therefore you don't have to live with an abuser and maybe you can obtain civil divorce for adultery too as a way of discipline to only accept them back if they live clean lives.
The problem is then the innocent party has not the beneficial use of marriage to control sexual desire since he can not remarry even the abused one. I don't mind taking up that cross but jesus could have made the exception for adultery as sexual immorality. If sexual immorality is defined in the Catholic Church as hidden premarital sex even though the Catholic found true love and should therefore some think would be a valid marriage I don't know if I think that is valid or good to approve of because then people will abuse it and immorality will be more but if the reason they think it is immorality because they don't want them to be forced to marry someone they don't really know then why should not the same reason apply to adultery since one is forced to live with someone who may not be right for them but they both seem to have had true love so you can't say their marriage was invalid
Maybe it is best to teach no remarriage even after adultery if that doesn't lead to abuse of the rule so that people can not be disciplined to repent. Civil divorce seems to solve the problem if you can live without sex which I would strive to be celibate so that they are forced to change their ways because they won't be allowed to have communion living in sin of adultery through remarriage. But now the Catholic Church allows them to have communion if they already have kids but I suppose they have to be celibate with new spouse. But that is very difficult if you are living together. Since they are not one flesh anymore since one broke it through remarriage would the Catholic Church allow the innocent spouse to remarry if the other does ?
Marriage is not to be taken lightly adultery is the destruction of many souls who die unready
But if you live together with an adulterous spouse who continues to sin would you be responsible for not helping her Repent ?
You could love her unconditionally and she could be moved by that and love you but she won't repent
We don't control Single people's sins so do we need to control married people's sins ? Should we not teach them they are responsible for themselves ? But didn't paul teach not to eat with a brother maybe enable is also meant someone named a brother who is living in sin ?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 08:46:50 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #484 on: September 10, 2017, 03:38:30 PM »
I only won't remarry if she bears me children. If she doesn't it could be she trying to ruin God plan
I can't say it solves all problems of world and is solution but it seems good to me
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 03:43:22 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Indocern

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #485 on: September 10, 2017, 04:02:57 PM »
I think that everyone can marry second one if the first one die.

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #486 on: September 10, 2017, 04:15:26 PM »
I think that everyone can marry second one if the first one die.

We get the solutuon.

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #487 on: September 10, 2017, 04:31:18 PM »
Thanks Indocern and youssef for your reply. In regard to non death but adultery. I think in some cases if you don't remarry you are seen as weak and maybe help them not repent and some people are kept from cheating for fear their spouse remarries. Maybe everyone personality is different. But I don't know if any I just wrote is true
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 04:35:00 PM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #488 on: September 10, 2017, 07:07:10 PM »
You worry too much about what others may or may not think.  Worry not even about what God may think or not think.  He loves you, warts and all!  ;)
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #489 on: September 11, 2017, 12:31:47 AM »
You worry too much about what others may or may not think.  Worry not even about what God may think or not think.  He loves you, warts and all!  ;)

Thankyou dear brother :)

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #490 on: September 11, 2017, 04:43:07 AM »
"Thus, St. John Chrysostom wrote to the young widow of Tarasius, a deceased nobleman of Constantinople, counseling her not to enter into marriage for the second time. The Church blesses first marriages with joy but the second marriage with sorrow. Eupraxia the elder, the mother of St. Eupraxia and relative of Emperor Theodosius the Great, remained a young widow following the death of her husband Antigonus, with whom she lived in physical contact for only two years and three months, and further lived one more year as brother and sister by mutual pledge. The emperor and empress counseled her to enter into marriage with another nobleman. She would not hear of it, but took her child Eupraxia and together they fled to Egypt. What can we say about St. Olympias and St. Eupraxia the younger? As with St. Macrina, not only was she also betrothed as a virgin but when her betrothed died, she considered herself a widow and would not even in her thoughts consider entering into marriage. What purity of heart! What fidelity to one's betrothed! What fear of God! What obvious faith in the future life in which the betrothed maiden hopes to see her betrothed."

I believe the bolded is a good summary on how our Church views second marriages :) It's better not to, but our church blesses it sorrowfully if truly needed and one isn't strong enough to take the better path of honouring their marriage until "death unites them completely"
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 04:47:34 AM by Alxandra »
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #491 on: September 11, 2017, 08:16:26 AM »
Thankyou Alxandra :)

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #492 on: September 11, 2017, 08:20:33 AM »
Wait I only agree for innocent ones. Better for any to remarry than give up hope but they shouldn't have no hope. Besides what is the reason they want a second marriage ? Shouldn't their goal be heaven?

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #493 on: September 25, 2017, 08:37:56 AM »
Here is my opinion

Divorce is not permitted but some people remarried with kids can not all practically leave their family or kids will suffer. They shouldn't be forbidden communion which is needed for salvation. Salvation is not guarantee for those who remarry as they may die unexpectadly. You can't sin wilfully and delay repentance. And they may simply have less reward.
Not everyone who remarries is guilty. If a relationship doesn't work out because a person has no remorse and wants that person not to fulfill will of God and be happy. No one has the right to make one person childless or without children who honor him
If it didn't work out it doesn't mean God didn't want you to have a child. You can't refuse to reconcile with someone to cause them to suffer. God doesn't want to force all men to be alone but to choose but some must be alone. It is not wrong to be kind to marry a divorced person who is innocent who you and her are ones suitable for each other to live a holy life and no baggage from previous relationships that will make it fail. That was the essence of not marrying a divorced woman. If you marry a guilty divorced one you are both defiling yourselves and living in adultery because you have given up on a relationship which should have worked for your lusts
A happy married relationship may help one to serve God more and the poor. Everyone has to fulfill their own calling and what they are able to do
In the end days people will both marry and forbid marriage. You can't say they are all sinning because they married in the last days if they don't know the end of the world signs have come as preached by the church and not by just people who think of questionable evidences

Maybe many should not get remarried and will bring judgement if they do as jesus said in those days many will be caught up giving themselves in marriage and that can include single people too but more them

« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 08:40:55 AM by mikeforjesus »