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Author Topic: Positive Step for the Right-To-Die Movement  (Read 2817 times) Average Rating: 0
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2013, 10:25:14 AM »

One more thing...

What I am advocating is not what others here seem to think I am advocating. I am not advocating any assisted suicide where the person dying is not in control of the decision. I am aware of many of the dangers of euthanasia and the ways it can be abused. What I am advocating are laws that would allow people with grievous, terminal illnesses to be able to avoid the suffering of the ends of their lives and their inevitable deaths. For instance, take ALS, otherwise know as Lou Gerrick's disease. When you are diagnosed, you are not given a long time to live. The muscles in your mouth and throat simply stop working, which makes it impossible to drink or eat or swallow. You must receive food through a feeding tube. You are told that you will likely eventually choke or suffocate to death. These people shouldn't have to wait around until that horrible day when they begin to choke to death! They should have the choice to legally end their lives.
That IS suicide.

I see an end of life procedure going something like this... the patient and a friend or relative have to sign some papers saying that the patient wants to undergo the life-ending treatment, a doctor or counselor has to consult with the patient to make sure that they are in their right mind and have good reason to want to end their life, a committee of doctors must ascertain that the patient is indeed terminal, and all of this is sent to a lawyer who oversees the case and makes sure that everything goes according to plan. Something like that.
What you are advocating is already practiced in Oregon. It's essentially nothing more than physician-assisted suicide. I voted against the law when it was introduced as a ballot measure several years ago, and I will vote for its repeal again and again if a repeal effort ever makes the ballot. I may not understand with my already feeble mind why God allows such suffering; I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"
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« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2013, 10:39:25 AM »

One more thing...

What I am advocating is not what others here seem to think I am advocating. I am not advocating any assisted suicide where the person dying is not in control of the decision. I am aware of many of the dangers of euthanasia and the ways it can be abused. What I am advocating are laws that would allow people with grievous, terminal illnesses to be able to avoid the suffering of the ends of their lives and their inevitable deaths. For instance, take ALS, otherwise know as Lou Gerrick's disease. When you are diagnosed, you are not given a long time to live. The muscles in your mouth and throat simply stop working, which makes it impossible to drink or eat or swallow. You must receive food through a feeding tube. You are told that you will likely eventually choke or suffocate to death. These people shouldn't have to wait around until that horrible day when they begin to choke to death! They should have the choice to legally end their lives.

That IS suicide.

I see an end of life procedure going something like this... the patient and a friend or relative have to sign some papers saying that the patient wants to undergo the life-ending treatment, a doctor or counselor has to consult with the patient to make sure that they are in their right mind and have good reason to want to end their life, a committee of doctors must ascertain that the patient is indeed terminal, and all of this is sent to a lawyer who oversees the case and makes sure that everything goes according to plan. Something like that.
What you are advocating is already practiced in Oregon. It's essentially nothing more than physician-assisted suicide. I voted against the law when it was introduced as a ballot measure several years ago, and I will vote for its repeal again and again if a repeal effort ever makes the ballot. I may not understand with my already feeble mind why God allows such suffering; I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

It could be argued that I shouldn't be taking insulin injections to sustain my life. I mean, I am doing something "unnatural" to myself to keep myself alive. Is this going against God's will? Did God want me dead five years ago? We do all kinds of things that could be argued to go against God's will, or the "natural order of things". Some discernment is needed. Sometimes, imo, the way isn't so clear. My conscience tells me that in some cases not relieving one's agony when they want you to is the wrong thing to do. The religious argument holds little value in individual cases, as far as I am concerned, because everyone's situation is different. Unless, of course, you claim to have special knowledge of what exactly constitutes the will of God in every individual life situation...?
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« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2013, 10:41:46 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"
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« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2013, 10:51:24 AM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern. If it goes against one's religious beliefs, then obviously one can opt to suffer right down to the last breath, and simply not request doctor assisted suicide. But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
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« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2013, 10:57:45 AM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

then there's that problem with eager heirs....

Then there is the problem of eager nursing homes who want to drain you of your last cent and keep you alive until they do.

If you are 65 years old today you have a 73% chance of eventually needing Long Term Care. They have turned keeping people alive, yet  debilitated into an Art form. They are artificially keeping people alive past any reasonable natural end.
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« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2013, 11:09:10 AM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern.
And you're making a secular argument for what is essentially a religious concern, for truth is truth regardless of what religion you are.

But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
If someone wants to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head or taking an overdose of pills, I suppose there's not a damn thing any law can do to stop him. Is such a person going to be concerned about the law at that point? When such a person calls for the assistance of a physician, however, then we can and should prohibit the physician from assisting in one's suicide and punish any physician who disobeys this prohibition.
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« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2013, 11:13:21 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"
Where is the trust in the mercy and grace of God, that grace that allows us to do all things by Him who gives us strength? By ending one's own life via suicide, one cuts himself off finally from receiving God's grace in this life and possibly even in the next.
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« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2013, 11:18:49 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"
Where is the trust in the mercy and grace of God, that grace that allows us to do all things by Him who gives us strength? By ending one's own life via suicide, one cuts himself off finally from receiving God's grace in this life and possibly even in the next.

Like I said, if this is your conviction, then no one could force you to accept life-ending treatment (with the right safeguards in place). But for many, many people, this is simply not a concern that they have. How can you dictate how much suffering someone should be willing to be subjected to before it becomes too much for them? Shouldn't it be up to them, and no one else, ultimately?
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2013, 11:21:03 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"
Where is the trust in the mercy and grace of God, that grace that allows us to do all things by Him who gives us strength? By ending one's own life via suicide, one cuts himself off finally from receiving God's grace in this life and possibly even in the next.

Like I said, if this is your conviction, then no one could force you to accept life-ending treatment (with the right safeguards in place). But for many, many people, this is simply not a concern that they have. How can you dictate how much suffering someone should be willing to be subjected to before it becomes too much for them? Shouldn't it be up to them, and no one else, ultimately?
As I said, if a person really wants to kill himself, there's really nothing much we can do to stop him. Just don't allow anyone to help the person commit suicide.
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« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2013, 11:24:54 AM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern.
And you're making a secular argument for what is essentially a religious concern, for truth is truth regardless of what religion you are.

But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
If someone wants to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head or taking an overdose of pills, I suppose there's not a damn thing any law can do to stop him. Is such a person going to be concerned about the law at that point? When such a person calls for the assistance of a physician, however, then we can and should prohibit the physician from assisting in one's suicide and punish any physician who disobeys this prohibition.

It's not always that simple. My mom sincerely wanted her life to be ended short, after months of pain and the inability to eat or drink. She told me that she could not end her own life, though, because it would have messed with her will and investments, etc. Besides, having medical experts on hand to make sure it is done effectively and painlessly, perhaps with friends and relatives around to "see the patient off", would be a lot better for most people than blowing their brains out with a gun, or some God-awful thing like that.
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« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2013, 11:30:42 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.
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« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2013, 11:37:18 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.

Hey, my point was simply that just because someone wants their agony ended doesn't necessarily mean that they're flipping God off.
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« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2013, 11:42:29 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.

Hey, my point was simply that just because someone wants their agony ended doesn't necessarily mean that they're flipping God off.

It doesn't matter what the consciousness says to justify an action. Actions retain their meaning. You can abort a child and say it's because they wouldn't have had a good life, but you are still "flipping God off" by rejecting life.
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« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2013, 11:45:10 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.

Hey, my point was simply that just because someone wants their agony ended doesn't necessarily mean that they're flipping God off.

It doesn't matter what the consciousness says to justify an action. Actions retain their meaning. You can abort a child and say it's because they wouldn't have had a good life, but you are still "flipping God off" by rejecting life.

Let's not bring abortion into this, please. An unborn child has no say in the matter. A suffering individual on the last leg of his life who finds his suffering unbearable is quite a different matter.
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« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2013, 11:47:17 AM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?
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« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2013, 11:48:00 AM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

In some cases, yes.
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« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2013, 11:53:24 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.

Hey, my point was simply that just because someone wants their agony ended doesn't necessarily mean that they're flipping God off.

It doesn't matter what the consciousness says to justify an action. Actions retain their meaning. You can abort a child and say it's because they wouldn't have had a good life, but you are still "flipping God off" by rejecting life.

Besides, some of what you see in palliative care units, hospices, and old age homes could hardly be called living. Is it really important to God to get those last few whimpers out of a person? What kind of deity are we worshiping here?  Undecided
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« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2013, 11:55:44 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.

Hey, my point was simply that just because someone wants their agony ended doesn't necessarily mean that they're flipping God off.

It doesn't matter what the consciousness says to justify an action. Actions retain their meaning. You can abort a child and say it's because they wouldn't have had a good life, but you are still "flipping God off" by rejecting life.

Let's not bring abortion into this, please. An unborn child has no say in the matter. A suffering individual on the last leg of his life who finds his suffering unbearable is quite a different matter.

I didn't bring abortion into this. I made an analogy to demonstrate that wrong actions cannot be justified simply because the perpetrator imparts a different meaning onto them.
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« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2013, 11:56:23 AM »

. . .after some thought.  

I pray with everything I have and am that I am not in so much pain that I will beg for someone I love to take my life for me.  I cannot imagine at this moment in my life, putting someone through carrying such a horrific burden for the rest of their lives.  Suicide is a violent act against those left behind. . . to make one of those the extension of that violent act in becoming the weapon. . . is such a harmful thing to someone I profess to love.

I don't know, honestly if I would have the strength - pain is something that can drive the sanest person absolutely insane and capable of doing the most horrific thing.  I would consider this an unbearable trial.  I do know I am to pray that I might be spared the last trial.

Lord have mercy on this man who carries this for the rest of his life. . .one day would be too much for me to bear.

My very real prayer NOW is that if I lose my mind to dementia - that I would not forget HIM.  That perhaps He would bring good out of it in some way, as He promised to do.  

The right to die?  This is odd to me.  There are a million and one ways to die - with or without the body ceasing to function.  Do I have a right to each?  As a Christian - as a believer in Christ, this isn't a right, it was a curse - one procured by the evil one in deception - and the fall of man.  ANY death.  . . is not the right death.  Whether naturally or by means of control.  

The law of the land:  There was a woman in the Temple where Jesus preached.  She was bent over for a very very long time - and when Jesus went to heal her, everyone got all persnickety about whether He should wait until the next day or not, as it was the Sabbath.  He said that this woman had been in pain for many years - and they had put their barn animals and their care ahead of her, a daughter of Israel.  Then He healed her.  

He recognized her pain - and had compassion on her.  

The law of the land is that it cannot heal those who are in tremendous pain because it is powerless.  It is powerless.  It has no power except the power that is given to it from His Throne.  

WE on the other hand.  WE HAVE THAT POWER TO HEAL, if we would pursue our responsibilities to pursue Him and let Him HEAL through us, instead of worrying about what law they come up with next.  If they make a law that says 'do not prosecute those who are driven to murder out of compassion' - then it's because WE haven't gone and done what WE are called to do:  Become Saints so that His power is made manifest in us so that HIS CHOICES are what is witnessed by the secular world.  

Do you think she would have begged to have her life ended if she had THAT hope?  To call the local Holy Man who walks in, with, and by Christ to heal her?  
Do you think he would have pulled the trigger if he had that hope?

Both had no hope.  Both despaired.  Lord have mercy on them both.

The government has nothing on us as the Body of Christ who would rather tend to our own things than reach out to touch those when He sends us to heal them.  

I speak this to myself very loudly.  Lord have mercy on us.  Lord have mercy on me, a sinner.  This situation convicts me down to my bones.
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« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2013, 11:56:47 AM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
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« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2013, 11:58:15 AM »

Is it really important to God to get those last few whimpers out of a person? What kind of deity are we worshiping here?  Undecided

The kind that gives worth to human life.
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« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2013, 12:32:05 PM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.

Hey, my point was simply that just because someone wants their agony ended doesn't necessarily mean that they're flipping God off.
Wanting their agony ended and taking active measures to achieve that desire, however, are two totally different things. Even Jesus asked that His cup of an excruciatingly painful death might be taken from Him, but in the end He said to His Father, "nevertheless, Thy will be done." I think this attitude that we see in the example of our Lord's Passion might be very instructive to us.
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« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2013, 12:37:24 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

In some cases, yes.
There was a time when medical doctors actually followed the Hippocratic Oath, one clause of which says (in English translation), "I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath
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« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2013, 12:45:50 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.
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« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2013, 01:11:29 PM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

then there's that problem with eager heirs....

Then there is the problem of eager nursing homes who want to drain you of your last cent and keep you alive until they do.

If you are 65 years old today you have a 73% chance of eventually needing Long Term Care. They have turned keeping people alive, yet  debilitated into an Art form. They are artificially keeping people alive past any reasonable natural end.
That too, though at that point you are dealing with the end of the nursing home industry where they are just mausuleums for the living, and even the heirs have given up and there is nothing left.  I seem to remember seeing something about a stay averaging less than 6 months, not enough to go through the average estate.

I also recall that recent case in, was it MN?, where the home wanted to pull the plug but the husband didn't want to, and he had the funds to keep it going.
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« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2013, 01:11:29 PM »

If I were to ever develop dementia or Alzheimer's or any of the other mental conditions when I become an old person, I'd like to be put down than live without my right mind.
You'd be surprised how your opinion can change when the possibility approaches.  My step father, a multi-stroke survivor almost two decades before, was adamant that he didn't want to be intubated, but you should have seen the vehemence with which he struggled to prevent him to take the tube out (he was well enough, we were not pulling the plug).  He wanted me to wheel him in the bed to the pay phone (in ICC there was no phone) to call the police.  He was discharged later after a week, and lived for another month (unrelated to his hospital stay, directly at least: he choked on a sandwich).
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« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2013, 01:11:29 PM »

decent palliative care is not as difficult as the proponents of euthanasia try to make out.
the first hospices were in the monasteries in europe, western asia and north africa, where terminally ill people would be treated with dignity (didn't involve premature death) and love, instead of being left to die in pain at home or on the street.

it's interesting how the generation that invented the widespread abortion of babies now risks being killed prematurely in old age.
 Sad

yes, isn't it?
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« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2013, 01:11:29 PM »

I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

It's true. One of the few reasons why I'm ashamed to be Dutch. They'll sometimes pull the plug even without permission.
Actually, were it not for what seems a deeply ingrained work ethic and residual morality, the place would have collapsed into a pile of libertinism.  That it hasn't says much for the resilience of Dutch culture.
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« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2013, 01:13:13 PM »


Wanting their agony ended and taking active measures to achieve that desire, however, are two totally different things. Even Jesus asked that His cup of an excruciatingly painful death might be taken from Him, but in the end He said to His Father, "nevertheless, Thy will be done." I think this attitude that we see in the example of our Lord's Passion might be very instructive to us.

The point, IMHO. (and before we get into it, yes, I have sat with and watched and prayed for suffering and dying loved ones.)
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« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2013, 02:01:27 PM »

Just for some greater perspective on the issue, Fr. Stanley Harakas has written this:
Quote
Euthanasia

The Church accompanies its faithful from even before birth, through all the steps of life to death and beyond, with its prayers, rites, sacraments, preaching, teaching, and its love, faith and hope. All of life, and even death itself, are drawn into the realm of the life of the Church. Death is seen as evil in itself, and symbolic of all those forces which oppose God-given life and its fulfillment. Salvation and redemption are normally understood in Eastern Christianity in terms of sharing in Jesus Christ's victory over death, sin and evil through His crucifixion and His resurrection. The Orthodox Church has a very strong pro-life stand which in part expresses itself in opposition to doctrinaire advocacy of euthanasia.

Euthanasia is understood to be the view or practice which holds that a person has the right, and even the moral obligation, to end his or her life when it is considered to be - for whatever subjectively accepted reason "not worth living." Euthanasia advocates nearly always include in this assertion the right and duty of others, including medical personnel, to assist the person in fulfilling this purpose. Needless to say, the Orthodox Church rejects such a view, seeing such behavior as a form of suicide on the part of the individual, and a form of murder on a part of others who assist in this practice, both of which are seen as sins.

Thus the Orthodox Church, in the words of 1976 Christmas encyclical of former Archbishop Iakovos, considers "euthanasia and abortion, along with homosexuality ... a ... moral alienation." Modern medical practice, however, has affected another part of the Church's perspective. The Church does not expect that excessive and heroic means must be used at all costs to prolong dying, as has now become possible through technical medical advances. As current Orthodox theology expresses it:

    "The Church distinguishes between euthanasia and the withholding of extraordinary means to prolong life. It affirms the sanctity of human life and man's God-given responsibility to preserve life. But it rejects an attitude which disregards the inevitability of physical death."

This means that the Church may even pray that terminally ill persons die, without insisting that they be subjected to unnecessary and extraordinary medical efforts. At the same time, the Church rejects as morally wrong any willed action on the part of an individual to cause his or her own death or the death of another, when it otherwise would not occur.
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/controversialissues
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« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2013, 03:59:46 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)
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« Reply #76 on: April 01, 2013, 04:04:47 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?
Quit your hair splitting, orthonorm.

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)
I don't know what world you live in, orthonorm, but in my world, we buried a priest from my parish just last year. This side of the great Parousia, everyone dies eventually.
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« Reply #77 on: April 01, 2013, 04:08:48 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?
Quit your hair splitting, orthonorm.

I am not. How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary.

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)
I don't know what world you live in, orthonorm, but in my world, we buried a priest from my parish just last year. This side of the great Parousia, everyone dies eventually.

Let the dead bury the dead.

If you think your Priest is dead, then I have no idea what sorta Christianity you could possibly be believing in. I need help with names of the various heresies, I am not good with that stuff.

Why do you pray to the saints, even perhaps your Priest, if he is dead?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 04:10:02 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #78 on: April 01, 2013, 04:11:58 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?
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« Reply #79 on: April 01, 2013, 04:18:37 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?

We have a term called death which is a nebulous state of being poorly define by many if at all.

But you have Christian belief.

If those who died are dead, then why do you pray to them? What did Christ trample down again?
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« Reply #80 on: April 01, 2013, 04:30:45 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?

We have a term called death which is a nebulous state of being poorly define by many if at all.

But you have Christian belief.

If those who died are dead, then why do you pray to them? What did Christ trample down again?

I really don't know what point you're trying to make.  Whatever it is, it's obviously over my head.  I thought the topic of this thread was the so-called "Right-To-Die Movement", and then you go and get all filosofacal and meddafizzicul on us.

Someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die."


And someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary."

By my admittedly poor and probably quite faulty reckoning, there's gotta be more than one personality here calling itself "orthonorm".
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« Reply #81 on: April 01, 2013, 04:31:12 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?
Quit your hair splitting, orthonorm.

I am not. How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary.

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)
I don't know what world you live in, orthonorm, but in my world, we buried a priest from my parish just last year. This side of the great Parousia, everyone dies eventually.

Let the dead bury the dead.

If you think your Priest is dead, then I have no idea what sorta Christianity you could possibly be believing in. I need help with names of the various heresies, I am not good with that stuff.

Why do you pray to the saints, even perhaps your Priest, if he is dead?

You should know the answer if you're Orthodox.
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« Reply #82 on: April 01, 2013, 04:33:57 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?
Quit your hair splitting, orthonorm.

I am not. How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary.

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)
I don't know what world you live in, orthonorm, but in my world, we buried a priest from my parish just last year. This side of the great Parousia, everyone dies eventually.

Let the dead bury the dead.

If you think your Priest is dead, then I have no idea what sorta Christianity you could possibly be believing in. I need help with names of the various heresies, I am not good with that stuff.

Why do you pray to the saints, even perhaps your Priest, if he is dead?

You should know the answer if you're Orthodox.

They aren't dead. See above.

EDIT: Or see the following:

« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 04:35:37 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #83 on: April 01, 2013, 04:37:24 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?

We have a term called death which is a nebulous state of being poorly define by many if at all.

But you have Christian belief.

If those who died are dead, then why do you pray to them? What did Christ trample down again?

I really don't know what point you're trying to make.  Whatever it is, it's obviously over my head.  I thought the topic of this thread was the so-called "Right-To-Die Movement", and then you go and get all filosofacal and meddafizzicul on us.

Someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die."


And someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary."

By my admittedly poor and probably quite faulty reckoning, there's gotta be more than one personality here calling itself "orthonorm".

And I explain the what lies in between.

There are deaths without dying. And dying without death.

The problem that you are going to run into is orthopraxis, not orthonorm.
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« Reply #84 on: April 01, 2013, 04:44:28 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?
Quit your hair splitting, orthonorm.

I am not. How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary.

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)
I don't know what world you live in, orthonorm, but in my world, we buried a priest from my parish just last year. This side of the great Parousia, everyone dies eventually.

Let the dead bury the dead.

If you think your Priest is dead, then I have no idea what sorta Christianity you could possibly be believing in. I need help with names of the various heresies, I am not good with that stuff.

Why do you pray to the saints, even perhaps your Priest, if he is dead?

You should know the answer if you're Orthodox.

They aren't dead. See above.

Their body is in a grave.  We pray to God to intercede with the soul of the departed servant.  That's not the point of this thread.
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« Reply #85 on: April 01, 2013, 04:54:02 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?

We have a term called death which is a nebulous state of being poorly define by many if at all.

But you have Christian belief.

If those who died are dead, then why do you pray to them? What did Christ trample down again?

I really don't know what point you're trying to make.  Whatever it is, it's obviously over my head.  I thought the topic of this thread was the so-called "Right-To-Die Movement", and then you go and get all filosofacal and meddafizzicul on us.

Someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die."


And someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary."

By my admittedly poor and probably quite faulty reckoning, there's gotta be more than one personality here calling itself "orthonorm".

And I explain the what lies in between.

There are deaths without dying. And dying without death.

The problem that you are going to run into is orthopraxis, not orthonorm.

I don't think I have a problem with orthopraxis (other than not always praxising it properly).  But...I could be deluding myself. Or I could just be far less intelligent than I already give myself credit (??) for being.  I do have a problem understanding at least one of those personalities calling itself "orthonorm".  But...as SolEX01 said, "That's not the point of this thread."
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« Reply #86 on: April 01, 2013, 04:57:25 PM »

I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

It's true. One of the few reasons why I'm ashamed to be Dutch. They'll sometimes pull the plug even without permission.
Actually, were it not for what seems a deeply ingrained work ethic and residual morality, the place would have collapsed into a pile of libertinism.  That it hasn't says much for the resilience of Dutch culture.

That's the result of centuries of calvinism. It's indeed still deep within the Dutch, even if they're not religious anymore. It's curious that the secularisation of the Netherlands was mostly because of the Americanisation of society.
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« Reply #87 on: April 01, 2013, 05:47:16 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?

We have a term called death which is a nebulous state of being poorly define by many if at all.

But you have Christian belief.

If those who died are dead, then why do you pray to them? What did Christ trample down again?

I really don't know what point you're trying to make.  Whatever it is, it's obviously over my head.  I thought the topic of this thread was the so-called "Right-To-Die Movement", and then you go and get all filosofacal and meddafizzicul on us.

Someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die."


And someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary."

By my admittedly poor and probably quite faulty reckoning, there's gotta be more than one personality here calling itself "orthonorm".

And I explain the what lies in between.

There are deaths without dying. And dying without death.

The problem that you are going to run into is orthopraxis, not orthonorm.
When I recite the Creed, I state that I believe in the resurrection of the dead, not the resurrection of the undead.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 05:48:09 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Marc1152
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« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2013, 06:00:50 PM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern.
And you're making a secular argument for what is essentially a religious concern, for truth is truth regardless of what religion you are.

But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
If someone wants to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head or taking an overdose of pills, I suppose there's not a damn thing any law can do to stop him. Is such a person going to be concerned about the law at that point? When such a person calls for the assistance of a physician, however, then we can and should prohibit the physician from assisting in one's suicide and punish any physician who disobeys this prohibition.

Here is a dirty little secret.. if you go to a hospice or even sometimes if you are still in the hospital, they will wait until the family arrives, good byes are said if possible. Then they crank up the morphine..

Ask any nurse..

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« Reply #89 on: April 01, 2013, 06:11:47 PM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

then there's that problem with eager heirs....

Then there is the problem of eager nursing homes who want to drain you of your last cent and keep you alive until they do.

If you are 65 years old today you have a 73% chance of eventually needing Long Term Care. They have turned keeping people alive, yet  debilitated into an Art form. They are artificially keeping people alive past any reasonable natural end.
That too, though at that point you are dealing with the end of the nursing home industry where they are just mausuleums for the living, and even the heirs have given up and there is nothing left.  I seem to remember seeing something about a stay averaging less than 6 months, not enough to go through the average estate.

I also recall that recent case in, was it MN?, where the home wanted to pull the plug but the husband didn't want to, and he had the funds to keep it going.

The average stay is 3 years.. Longer for women.. Longer still if you cut out people who die in the first three months they are there.There is often a period of home care and sometimes Assisted Living before going to a skilled nursing home that is also expensive.

Long Term Care claims run on average between $250,000 and $700,000. $450,000 is what we advise people to have ready. That wipes out most estates and can leave the surviving spouse impoverished or the kids without a meaningful inheritance.
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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