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Author Topic: Positive Step for the Right-To-Die Movement  (Read 2978 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: March 30, 2013, 06:10:18 AM »

Arizona man, 86, sentenced to probation after mercy killing of his ailing wife

There was no doubt 86-year-old George Sanders killed his ailing wife. Yet everyone in the small Arizona courtroom — the prosecutor, the judge and even the couple's family members — agreed it was a time for compassion, not punishment...
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2013, 06:28:36 AM »

Watch out with the right-to-die movement. You give them a finger and they take the whole hand.
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2013, 07:34:10 AM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2013, 07:48:16 AM »

Perhaps it's just the right time. There's a reason Amour has been such a runaway success.
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2013, 07:59:54 AM »

How to Die in Oregon (2011) is a good, albeit sometimes painful documentary about the right-to-die issue. Highly recommended.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1715802/
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2013, 10:55:07 AM »

My grandmother ended up with gangrene in her foot - my uncle decided to with-hold care - which is how she died...from gangrene poisoning.  She died an incredibly painful death - and my heart aches for that.  My uncle ended up with dementia and died in a nursing home in diapers. 

I don't know what the best decision would have been - only God sees the heart.  This man was acting in compassion to his wife, and in love. . . as much as he could, he probably did the hardest thing he ever did in his life because he loved her so much. . .but God sees more than I do, or anyone else for that matter.  What were the motives of my uncle ordering the treatment to be withheld from my grandmother so that she would die from the gangrene?  I don't know.  I wasn't there in his heart.  I try not to judge, but I confess, I'm not very good at it in this case.  There were too many things that he benefited from by her death.

But God sees the heart.  And He said 'vengence is mine, I will repay.'  I can trust that.  My uncle was a brilliant man - a doctor - and he died in diapers. 

This man who shot his wife - somehow I think Justice was served better with mercy.  What a beautiful painful thing to witness in the news.
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2013, 11:42:55 AM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2013, 11:49:41 AM »

Be careful, this is only an inch away from "You have a right to die, whether you want it or not."
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2013, 11:55:05 AM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

For us, I don't think that's even an argument. . . as Christians. . .as Orthodox Christians. . .we trust in something Higher.  But we are still to judge with mercy - judging correctly. 

For the world?  It doesn't have that hope.  Their understanding of life and the trampling down of death doesn't exist. 

But to live is Christ, to die is gain.  However it happens, for whatever reason it happens. . . mercy triumphs over judgement.  Love conquers a multitude of sin.  Even the most heinous acts . . . can be covered by His Grace. 
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2013, 12:32:51 PM »

Be careful, this is only an inch away from "You have a right to die, whether you want it or not."

This. It is already happening in Europe.
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2013, 12:40:45 PM »

Be careful, this is only an inch away from "You have a right to die, whether you want it or not."

This. It is already happening in Europe.

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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2013, 12:42:16 PM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2013, 01:07:53 PM »

Be careful, this is only an inch away from "You have a right to die, whether you want it or not."

This. It is already happening in Europe.



Which has been proven by experience.
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2013, 02:13:01 PM »

Grandma needs to die with dignity or we'll miss our cruise next week.
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2013, 02:37:57 PM »

If I were to ever develop dementia or Alzheimer's or any of the other mental conditions when I become an old person, I'd like to be put down than live without my right mind.
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2013, 05:02:14 PM »

decent palliative care is not as difficult as the proponents of euthanasia try to make out.
the first hospices were in the monasteries in europe, western asia and north africa, where terminally ill people would be treated with dignity (didn't involve premature death) and love, instead of being left to die in pain at home or on the street.

it's interesting how the generation that invented the widespread abortion of babies now risks being killed prematurely in old age.
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2013, 05:39:06 PM »

decent palliative care is not as difficult as the proponents of euthanasia try to make out.
the first hospices were in the monasteries in europe, western asia and north africa, where terminally ill people would be treated with dignity (didn't involve premature death) and love, instead of being left to die in pain at home or on the street.

it's interesting how the generation that invented the widespread abortion of babies now risks being killed prematurely in old age.
 Sad


In my experience, decent palliative care isn't always good enough.
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2013, 05:43:28 PM »

If I were to ever develop dementia or Alzheimer's or any of the other mental conditions when I become an old person, I'd like to be put down than live without my right mind.

If you ever develop dementia or alzheimers (God forbid), you probably won't care.
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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2013, 05:48:04 PM »

If I were to ever develop dementia or Alzheimer's or any of the other mental conditions when I become an old person, I'd like to be put down than live without my right mind.

What makes you so sure you are in your right mind now?
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2013, 05:51:03 PM »

it's interesting how the generation that invented the widespread abortion of babies now risks being killed prematurely in old age.
 Sad


I recently read that many more people are living far longer than what was previously deemed natural, and because of this, more people are experiencing greater amounts of old-age suffering. In ways, perhaps we're living too long nowadays. Also, I read that doctors often refuse to receive many of the life extending treatments that others receive automatically (unless they find ways to opt out). This is because they know that their suffering will only be protracted if they are kept alive. Some food for thought.
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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2013, 05:51:32 PM »

If I were to ever develop dementia or Alzheimer's or any of the other mental conditions when I become an old person, I'd like to be put down than live without my right mind.

If you ever develop dementia or alzheimers (God forbid), you probably won't care.

At least you get to meet new people every day.


A man goes to the doctor to get the results of some tests.

I have bad news. You have cancer.

That's terrible

But that's not all. You also have alzheimers.

Well.............. At least I dont have cancer.
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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2013, 06:01:09 PM »

"Death with dignity" is, to me, nothing more than a euphemism for control. "I'm taking control of my life away from God and into my own hands so I can die as I see fit." Because this desire for control focuses on "what I want", it's generally very selfish and in accordance with the mind of this fallen world, not with the mind of Christ. Who's to say, though, that one's life can't be a blessing to other people even in death (an unhastened death according solely to God's timing)?
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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2013, 06:04:35 PM »

"Death with dignity" is, to me, nothing more than a euphemism for control. "I'm taking control of my life away from God and into my own hands so I can die as I see fit." Because this desire for control focuses on "what I want", it's generally very selfish and in accordance with the mind of this fallen world, not with the mind of Christ. Who's to say, though, that one's life can't be a blessing to other people even in death (an unhastened death according solely to God's timing)?

If helping a loved one avoid days or weeks of terrible and unnecessary suffering is selfishness, then go ahead and call me a selfish man.  Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2013, 06:09:48 PM »

"Death with dignity" is, to me, nothing more than a euphemism for control. "I'm taking control of my life away from God and into my own hands so I can die as I see fit." Because this desire for control focuses on "what I want", it's generally very selfish and in accordance with the mind of this fallen world, not with the mind of Christ. Who's to say, though, that one's life can't be a blessing to other people even in death (an unhastened death according solely to God's timing)?

If helping a loved one avoid days or weeks of terrible and unnecessary suffering is selfishness, then go ahead and call me a selfish man.  Smiley
By whose standards are you judging someone's suffering terrible and unnecessary: the mind of this fallen world, or the mind of Christ?
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2013, 06:23:22 PM »

"Death with dignity" is, to me, nothing more than a euphemism for control. "I'm taking control of my life away from God and into my own hands so I can die as I see fit." Because this desire for control focuses on "what I want", it's generally very selfish and in accordance with the mind of this fallen world, not with the mind of Christ. Who's to say, though, that one's life can't be a blessing to other people even in death (an unhastened death according solely to God's timing)?

If helping a loved one avoid days or weeks of terrible and unnecessary suffering is selfishness, then go ahead and call me a selfish man.  Smiley
By whose standards are you judging someone's suffering terrible and unnecessary: the mind of this fallen world, or the mind of Christ?

Oh, what a load of hooey. In this case, I am judging someone's suffering terrible and unnecessary by her own words. And my own observations. Surely you don't think that all suffering has a point or is God-ordained? If it does, that is one warped God, isn't it? It would make Him complicit in the torture of millions of humans and animals.

Let's be real, here...  Cry

In cases of terrible suffering, where all hope for survival is lost, by far the most merciful thing to do is give the sufferer the right to die on his/her own terms. Surely our great God wouldn't be eternally offended if we wrested control from Him for just a moment in order to end someone's agony.
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2013, 06:40:57 PM »

I am sorry for being snarky, Peter. The painful memories of my mom dying are still fresh and vivid for me, as it occurred two years ago around this time. It's hard for me not to take this discussion personally. So I should probably leave it alone. Forgive me, peeps!
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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2013, 06:54:22 PM »

Here's a thought; if someone had a really bad sin and truly could not stop doing it, would it be better for him to commit suicide so that he doesn't do it anymore, or to keep doing the sin?
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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2013, 07:33:40 PM »

Here's a thought; if someone had a really bad sin and truly could not stop doing it, would it be better for him to commit suicide so that he doesn't do it anymore, or to keep doing the sin?
Why compound the sin by committing the ultimate sin?
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2013, 07:43:48 PM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool
* is risen from vague spiritual unpleasantness,
Trampling down vague spiritual unpleasantness by vague spiritual unpleasantness,
And upon those in vague spiritual unpleasantness,
Bestowing vague spiritual pleasantness!
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« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2013, 07:49:55 PM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool
Was Christ's resurrection merely a spiritual resurrection, such that His bones can still be found in the tomb?
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« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2013, 08:24:43 PM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool
Was Christ's resurrection merely a spiritual resurrection, such that His bones can still be found in the tomb?

this reminds me, one time a person I know was invited to a birthday party where the folks were Bahai , and one guest was ridiculing the orthodox teaching of Christ's Resurrection saying' well the reason they did not find anything in the tomb was because Jesus had told his disciples that eating his flesh and drinking his blood would make them live forever.so they must have taken him at his word' and the person I know replied ' you are right Christ did teach that whoever eats his flesh and drinks of his blood shall have Eternal Life. but as you would recall, he never said anything about chewing his bones, so you see if they had come at night and cannibalized him , the Romans would have found his bones in the tomb.' the clown laughed then quickly changed the subject.
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« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2013, 09:19:09 PM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool
Was Christ's resurrection merely a spiritual resurrection, such that His bones can still be found in the tomb?

this reminds me, one time a person I know was invited to a birthday party where the folks were Bahai , and one guest was ridiculing the orthodox teaching of Christ's Resurrection saying' well the reason they did not find anything in the tomb was because Jesus had told his disciples that eating his flesh and drinking his blood would make them live forever.so they must have taken him at his word' and the person I know replied ' you are right Christ did teach that whoever eats his flesh and drinks of his blood shall have Eternal Life. but as you would recall, he never said anything about chewing his bones, so you see if they had come at night and cannibalized him , the Romans would have found his bones in the tomb.' the clown laughed then quickly changed the subject.
My Bahai friend, who is a very righteous person in conduct, maintains that Christ was a spirit, as "a spirit does not have flesh and bones as I have" leaves out "blood", which is the only real marker of a physical being.
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« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2013, 09:52:06 PM »

"Death with dignity" is, to me, nothing more than a euphemism for control. "I'm taking control of my life away from God and into my own hands so I can die as I see fit." Because this desire for control focuses on "what I want", it's generally very selfish and in accordance with the mind of this fallen world, not with the mind of Christ. Who's to say, though, that one's life can't be a blessing to other people even in death (an unhastened death according solely to God's timing)?

But one problem with that is we have already taken control and many times extend life way past it's natural end.

If you find yourself in a nursing home, they will keep you going even if you are little more than a husk. They will feeding tube you and reel you back from the brink over and over . The cost of a nursing home around here is about $7,300 per month. You are a virtual money machine to them.
My mother in law screamed every three or four minutes the last full year of her life, spent in a nursing home... I think a little too much morphine administered just right would have been far preferable.

So until I see an xray that shows a feeding tube as a natural God-Given appendage...............
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« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2013, 10:00:56 PM »

I find it very odd and twisted in society how we could legally kill the unconsenting unborn who haven't even started their life, but we can't kill the consenting old person in pain who's already lived most their life.
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« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2013, 12:04:41 AM »

We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too.

There is nothing dignified about what you're advocating.
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« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2013, 12:13:36 AM »

Since I've never taken drugs or anything like that...

I told my wife:

"If I'm ever terminally ill and can't hardly take care of myself, bring me up in an airplane, rig me with skydiving gear, give me 10,000 hits of LSD, and chunk me out of the plane."

At least it would be fun.... for a little while anyway. Wink
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« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2013, 12:19:19 AM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool

Pretty sure he actually died physically and rose physically.
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« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2013, 04:07:40 AM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool

I think He did trample down physical death as well as spiritual death. Won't we have physical bodies in heaven?


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« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2013, 04:10:08 AM »

I find it very odd and twisted in society how we could legally kill the unconsenting unborn who haven't even started their life, but we can't kill the consenting old person in pain who's already lived most their life.

Yes, that is twisted. But let's not kill any of them. Ease their suffering, provide comfort, work to heal, but don't kill.


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« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2013, 05:03:52 AM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

then there's that problem with eager heirs....
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« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2013, 07:22:58 AM »

All the scientific progress on prolonging life can easily cross into 'just because you can doesn't mean you should' territory. Life support is not something that should go on indefinitely. I feel living wills need to be more respected - legally binding, if necessary.
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« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2013, 07:26:10 AM »

I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

It's true. One of the few reasons why I'm ashamed to be Dutch. They'll sometimes pull the plug even without permission.
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« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2013, 07:54:25 AM »

My grandmother developed Alzheimers and lived at home with us for seven years until she died in her own bed.  My parents cared for her with love and patience, and I think they were on to something awesome.  They neither prolonged or shortened her life, and have never voiced any regrets in the twenty-five years since she died. 


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« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2013, 08:08:33 AM »

We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too.

There is nothing dignified about what you're advocating.

Why not? Where is the dignity in leaving someone to suffer, maxed out on morphine, wearing a diaper, moaning out in pain for someone to have the mercy and good sense to end their suffering?
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« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2013, 08:31:09 AM »

One more thing...

What I am advocating is not what others here seem to think I am advocating. I am not advocating any assisted suicide where the person dying is not in control of the decision. I am aware of many of the dangers of euthanasia and the ways it can be abused. What I am advocating are laws that would allow people with grievous, terminal illnesses to be able to avoid the suffering of the ends of their lives and their inevitable deaths. For instance, take ALS, otherwise know as Lou Gerrick's disease. When you are diagnosed, you are not given a long time to live. The muscles in your mouth and throat simply stop working, which makes it impossible to drink or eat or swallow. You must receive food through a feeding tube. You are told that you will likely eventually choke or suffocate to death. These people shouldn't have to wait around until that horrible day when they begin to choke to death! They should have the choice to legally end their lives.

I see an end of life procedure going something like this... the patient and a friend or relative have to sign some papers saying that the patient wants to undergo the life-ending treatment, a doctor or counselor has to consult with the patient to make sure that they are in their right mind and have good reason to want to end their life, a committee of doctors must ascertain that the patient is indeed terminal, and all of this is sent to a lawyer who oversees the case and makes sure that everything goes according to plan. Something like that.
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« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2013, 10:25:14 AM »

One more thing...

What I am advocating is not what others here seem to think I am advocating. I am not advocating any assisted suicide where the person dying is not in control of the decision. I am aware of many of the dangers of euthanasia and the ways it can be abused. What I am advocating are laws that would allow people with grievous, terminal illnesses to be able to avoid the suffering of the ends of their lives and their inevitable deaths. For instance, take ALS, otherwise know as Lou Gerrick's disease. When you are diagnosed, you are not given a long time to live. The muscles in your mouth and throat simply stop working, which makes it impossible to drink or eat or swallow. You must receive food through a feeding tube. You are told that you will likely eventually choke or suffocate to death. These people shouldn't have to wait around until that horrible day when they begin to choke to death! They should have the choice to legally end their lives.
That IS suicide.

I see an end of life procedure going something like this... the patient and a friend or relative have to sign some papers saying that the patient wants to undergo the life-ending treatment, a doctor or counselor has to consult with the patient to make sure that they are in their right mind and have good reason to want to end their life, a committee of doctors must ascertain that the patient is indeed terminal, and all of this is sent to a lawyer who oversees the case and makes sure that everything goes according to plan. Something like that.
What you are advocating is already practiced in Oregon. It's essentially nothing more than physician-assisted suicide. I voted against the law when it was introduced as a ballot measure several years ago, and I will vote for its repeal again and again if a repeal effort ever makes the ballot. I may not understand with my already feeble mind why God allows such suffering; I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"
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« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2013, 10:39:25 AM »

One more thing...

What I am advocating is not what others here seem to think I am advocating. I am not advocating any assisted suicide where the person dying is not in control of the decision. I am aware of many of the dangers of euthanasia and the ways it can be abused. What I am advocating are laws that would allow people with grievous, terminal illnesses to be able to avoid the suffering of the ends of their lives and their inevitable deaths. For instance, take ALS, otherwise know as Lou Gerrick's disease. When you are diagnosed, you are not given a long time to live. The muscles in your mouth and throat simply stop working, which makes it impossible to drink or eat or swallow. You must receive food through a feeding tube. You are told that you will likely eventually choke or suffocate to death. These people shouldn't have to wait around until that horrible day when they begin to choke to death! They should have the choice to legally end their lives.

That IS suicide.

I see an end of life procedure going something like this... the patient and a friend or relative have to sign some papers saying that the patient wants to undergo the life-ending treatment, a doctor or counselor has to consult with the patient to make sure that they are in their right mind and have good reason to want to end their life, a committee of doctors must ascertain that the patient is indeed terminal, and all of this is sent to a lawyer who oversees the case and makes sure that everything goes according to plan. Something like that.
What you are advocating is already practiced in Oregon. It's essentially nothing more than physician-assisted suicide. I voted against the law when it was introduced as a ballot measure several years ago, and I will vote for its repeal again and again if a repeal effort ever makes the ballot. I may not understand with my already feeble mind why God allows such suffering; I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

It could be argued that I shouldn't be taking insulin injections to sustain my life. I mean, I am doing something "unnatural" to myself to keep myself alive. Is this going against God's will? Did God want me dead five years ago? We do all kinds of things that could be argued to go against God's will, or the "natural order of things". Some discernment is needed. Sometimes, imo, the way isn't so clear. My conscience tells me that in some cases not relieving one's agony when they want you to is the wrong thing to do. The religious argument holds little value in individual cases, as far as I am concerned, because everyone's situation is different. Unless, of course, you claim to have special knowledge of what exactly constitutes the will of God in every individual life situation...?
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« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2013, 10:41:46 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"
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« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2013, 10:51:24 AM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern. If it goes against one's religious beliefs, then obviously one can opt to suffer right down to the last breath, and simply not request doctor assisted suicide. But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
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« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2013, 10:57:45 AM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

then there's that problem with eager heirs....

Then there is the problem of eager nursing homes who want to drain you of your last cent and keep you alive until they do.

If you are 65 years old today you have a 73% chance of eventually needing Long Term Care. They have turned keeping people alive, yet  debilitated into an Art form. They are artificially keeping people alive past any reasonable natural end.
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« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2013, 11:09:10 AM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern.
And you're making a secular argument for what is essentially a religious concern, for truth is truth regardless of what religion you are.

But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
If someone wants to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head or taking an overdose of pills, I suppose there's not a damn thing any law can do to stop him. Is such a person going to be concerned about the law at that point? When such a person calls for the assistance of a physician, however, then we can and should prohibit the physician from assisting in one's suicide and punish any physician who disobeys this prohibition.
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« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2013, 11:13:21 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"
Where is the trust in the mercy and grace of God, that grace that allows us to do all things by Him who gives us strength? By ending one's own life via suicide, one cuts himself off finally from receiving God's grace in this life and possibly even in the next.
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« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2013, 11:18:49 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"
Where is the trust in the mercy and grace of God, that grace that allows us to do all things by Him who gives us strength? By ending one's own life via suicide, one cuts himself off finally from receiving God's grace in this life and possibly even in the next.

Like I said, if this is your conviction, then no one could force you to accept life-ending treatment (with the right safeguards in place). But for many, many people, this is simply not a concern that they have. How can you dictate how much suffering someone should be willing to be subjected to before it becomes too much for them? Shouldn't it be up to them, and no one else, ultimately?
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« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2013, 11:21:03 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"
Where is the trust in the mercy and grace of God, that grace that allows us to do all things by Him who gives us strength? By ending one's own life via suicide, one cuts himself off finally from receiving God's grace in this life and possibly even in the next.

Like I said, if this is your conviction, then no one could force you to accept life-ending treatment (with the right safeguards in place). But for many, many people, this is simply not a concern that they have. How can you dictate how much suffering someone should be willing to be subjected to before it becomes too much for them? Shouldn't it be up to them, and no one else, ultimately?
As I said, if a person really wants to kill himself, there's really nothing much we can do to stop him. Just don't allow anyone to help the person commit suicide.
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« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2013, 11:24:54 AM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern.
And you're making a secular argument for what is essentially a religious concern, for truth is truth regardless of what religion you are.

But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
If someone wants to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head or taking an overdose of pills, I suppose there's not a damn thing any law can do to stop him. Is such a person going to be concerned about the law at that point? When such a person calls for the assistance of a physician, however, then we can and should prohibit the physician from assisting in one's suicide and punish any physician who disobeys this prohibition.

It's not always that simple. My mom sincerely wanted her life to be ended short, after months of pain and the inability to eat or drink. She told me that she could not end her own life, though, because it would have messed with her will and investments, etc. Besides, having medical experts on hand to make sure it is done effectively and painlessly, perhaps with friends and relatives around to "see the patient off", would be a lot better for most people than blowing their brains out with a gun, or some God-awful thing like that.
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« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2013, 11:30:42 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.
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« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2013, 11:37:18 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.

Hey, my point was simply that just because someone wants their agony ended doesn't necessarily mean that they're flipping God off.
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« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2013, 11:42:29 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.

Hey, my point was simply that just because someone wants their agony ended doesn't necessarily mean that they're flipping God off.

It doesn't matter what the consciousness says to justify an action. Actions retain their meaning. You can abort a child and say it's because they wouldn't have had a good life, but you are still "flipping God off" by rejecting life.
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« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2013, 11:45:10 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.

Hey, my point was simply that just because someone wants their agony ended doesn't necessarily mean that they're flipping God off.

It doesn't matter what the consciousness says to justify an action. Actions retain their meaning. You can abort a child and say it's because they wouldn't have had a good life, but you are still "flipping God off" by rejecting life.

Let's not bring abortion into this, please. An unborn child has no say in the matter. A suffering individual on the last leg of his life who finds his suffering unbearable is quite a different matter.
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« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2013, 11:47:17 AM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?
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« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2013, 11:48:00 AM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

In some cases, yes.
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« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2013, 11:53:24 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.

Hey, my point was simply that just because someone wants their agony ended doesn't necessarily mean that they're flipping God off.

It doesn't matter what the consciousness says to justify an action. Actions retain their meaning. You can abort a child and say it's because they wouldn't have had a good life, but you are still "flipping God off" by rejecting life.

Besides, some of what you see in palliative care units, hospices, and old age homes could hardly be called living. Is it really important to God to get those last few whimpers out of a person? What kind of deity are we worshiping here?  Undecided
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« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2013, 11:55:44 AM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.

Hey, my point was simply that just because someone wants their agony ended doesn't necessarily mean that they're flipping God off.

It doesn't matter what the consciousness says to justify an action. Actions retain their meaning. You can abort a child and say it's because they wouldn't have had a good life, but you are still "flipping God off" by rejecting life.

Let's not bring abortion into this, please. An unborn child has no say in the matter. A suffering individual on the last leg of his life who finds his suffering unbearable is quite a different matter.

I didn't bring abortion into this. I made an analogy to demonstrate that wrong actions cannot be justified simply because the perpetrator imparts a different meaning onto them.
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« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2013, 11:56:23 AM »

. . .after some thought.  

I pray with everything I have and am that I am not in so much pain that I will beg for someone I love to take my life for me.  I cannot imagine at this moment in my life, putting someone through carrying such a horrific burden for the rest of their lives.  Suicide is a violent act against those left behind. . . to make one of those the extension of that violent act in becoming the weapon. . . is such a harmful thing to someone I profess to love.

I don't know, honestly if I would have the strength - pain is something that can drive the sanest person absolutely insane and capable of doing the most horrific thing.  I would consider this an unbearable trial.  I do know I am to pray that I might be spared the last trial.

Lord have mercy on this man who carries this for the rest of his life. . .one day would be too much for me to bear.

My very real prayer NOW is that if I lose my mind to dementia - that I would not forget HIM.  That perhaps He would bring good out of it in some way, as He promised to do.  

The right to die?  This is odd to me.  There are a million and one ways to die - with or without the body ceasing to function.  Do I have a right to each?  As a Christian - as a believer in Christ, this isn't a right, it was a curse - one procured by the evil one in deception - and the fall of man.  ANY death.  . . is not the right death.  Whether naturally or by means of control.  

The law of the land:  There was a woman in the Temple where Jesus preached.  She was bent over for a very very long time - and when Jesus went to heal her, everyone got all persnickety about whether He should wait until the next day or not, as it was the Sabbath.  He said that this woman had been in pain for many years - and they had put their barn animals and their care ahead of her, a daughter of Israel.  Then He healed her.  

He recognized her pain - and had compassion on her.  

The law of the land is that it cannot heal those who are in tremendous pain because it is powerless.  It is powerless.  It has no power except the power that is given to it from His Throne.  

WE on the other hand.  WE HAVE THAT POWER TO HEAL, if we would pursue our responsibilities to pursue Him and let Him HEAL through us, instead of worrying about what law they come up with next.  If they make a law that says 'do not prosecute those who are driven to murder out of compassion' - then it's because WE haven't gone and done what WE are called to do:  Become Saints so that His power is made manifest in us so that HIS CHOICES are what is witnessed by the secular world.  

Do you think she would have begged to have her life ended if she had THAT hope?  To call the local Holy Man who walks in, with, and by Christ to heal her?  
Do you think he would have pulled the trigger if he had that hope?

Both had no hope.  Both despaired.  Lord have mercy on them both.

The government has nothing on us as the Body of Christ who would rather tend to our own things than reach out to touch those when He sends us to heal them.  

I speak this to myself very loudly.  Lord have mercy on us.  Lord have mercy on me, a sinner.  This situation convicts me down to my bones.
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« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2013, 11:56:47 AM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
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« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2013, 11:58:15 AM »

Is it really important to God to get those last few whimpers out of a person? What kind of deity are we worshiping here?  Undecided

The kind that gives worth to human life.
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« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2013, 12:32:05 PM »

I wish only that His will be done. Suicide is essentially man's way of saying, "I don't care about Your divine will! I'm doing this MY WAY!"

Or in some cases, it could be man's way of saying: "God, the pain and anxiety is too much for me too bear. I'm sorry. I tried. But this has become unbearable! I cannot take anymore. Lord have mercy!"

I'd stick with making secular arguments when you're arguing for a heretical position on a Christian forum.

Hey, my point was simply that just because someone wants their agony ended doesn't necessarily mean that they're flipping God off.
Wanting their agony ended and taking active measures to achieve that desire, however, are two totally different things. Even Jesus asked that His cup of an excruciatingly painful death might be taken from Him, but in the end He said to His Father, "nevertheless, Thy will be done." I think this attitude that we see in the example of our Lord's Passion might be very instructive to us.
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« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2013, 12:37:24 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

In some cases, yes.
There was a time when medical doctors actually followed the Hippocratic Oath, one clause of which says (in English translation), "I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath
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« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2013, 12:45:50 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.
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« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2013, 01:11:29 PM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

then there's that problem with eager heirs....

Then there is the problem of eager nursing homes who want to drain you of your last cent and keep you alive until they do.

If you are 65 years old today you have a 73% chance of eventually needing Long Term Care. They have turned keeping people alive, yet  debilitated into an Art form. They are artificially keeping people alive past any reasonable natural end.
That too, though at that point you are dealing with the end of the nursing home industry where they are just mausuleums for the living, and even the heirs have given up and there is nothing left.  I seem to remember seeing something about a stay averaging less than 6 months, not enough to go through the average estate.

I also recall that recent case in, was it MN?, where the home wanted to pull the plug but the husband didn't want to, and he had the funds to keep it going.
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« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2013, 01:11:29 PM »

If I were to ever develop dementia or Alzheimer's or any of the other mental conditions when I become an old person, I'd like to be put down than live without my right mind.
You'd be surprised how your opinion can change when the possibility approaches.  My step father, a multi-stroke survivor almost two decades before, was adamant that he didn't want to be intubated, but you should have seen the vehemence with which he struggled to prevent him to take the tube out (he was well enough, we were not pulling the plug).  He wanted me to wheel him in the bed to the pay phone (in ICC there was no phone) to call the police.  He was discharged later after a week, and lived for another month (unrelated to his hospital stay, directly at least: he choked on a sandwich).
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« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2013, 01:11:29 PM »

decent palliative care is not as difficult as the proponents of euthanasia try to make out.
the first hospices were in the monasteries in europe, western asia and north africa, where terminally ill people would be treated with dignity (didn't involve premature death) and love, instead of being left to die in pain at home or on the street.

it's interesting how the generation that invented the widespread abortion of babies now risks being killed prematurely in old age.
 Sad

yes, isn't it?
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« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2013, 01:11:29 PM »

I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

It's true. One of the few reasons why I'm ashamed to be Dutch. They'll sometimes pull the plug even without permission.
Actually, were it not for what seems a deeply ingrained work ethic and residual morality, the place would have collapsed into a pile of libertinism.  That it hasn't says much for the resilience of Dutch culture.
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« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2013, 01:13:13 PM »


Wanting their agony ended and taking active measures to achieve that desire, however, are two totally different things. Even Jesus asked that His cup of an excruciatingly painful death might be taken from Him, but in the end He said to His Father, "nevertheless, Thy will be done." I think this attitude that we see in the example of our Lord's Passion might be very instructive to us.

The point, IMHO. (and before we get into it, yes, I have sat with and watched and prayed for suffering and dying loved ones.)
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« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2013, 02:01:27 PM »

Just for some greater perspective on the issue, Fr. Stanley Harakas has written this:
Quote
Euthanasia

The Church accompanies its faithful from even before birth, through all the steps of life to death and beyond, with its prayers, rites, sacraments, preaching, teaching, and its love, faith and hope. All of life, and even death itself, are drawn into the realm of the life of the Church. Death is seen as evil in itself, and symbolic of all those forces which oppose God-given life and its fulfillment. Salvation and redemption are normally understood in Eastern Christianity in terms of sharing in Jesus Christ's victory over death, sin and evil through His crucifixion and His resurrection. The Orthodox Church has a very strong pro-life stand which in part expresses itself in opposition to doctrinaire advocacy of euthanasia.

Euthanasia is understood to be the view or practice which holds that a person has the right, and even the moral obligation, to end his or her life when it is considered to be - for whatever subjectively accepted reason "not worth living." Euthanasia advocates nearly always include in this assertion the right and duty of others, including medical personnel, to assist the person in fulfilling this purpose. Needless to say, the Orthodox Church rejects such a view, seeing such behavior as a form of suicide on the part of the individual, and a form of murder on a part of others who assist in this practice, both of which are seen as sins.

Thus the Orthodox Church, in the words of 1976 Christmas encyclical of former Archbishop Iakovos, considers "euthanasia and abortion, along with homosexuality ... a ... moral alienation." Modern medical practice, however, has affected another part of the Church's perspective. The Church does not expect that excessive and heroic means must be used at all costs to prolong dying, as has now become possible through technical medical advances. As current Orthodox theology expresses it:

    "The Church distinguishes between euthanasia and the withholding of extraordinary means to prolong life. It affirms the sanctity of human life and man's God-given responsibility to preserve life. But it rejects an attitude which disregards the inevitability of physical death."

This means that the Church may even pray that terminally ill persons die, without insisting that they be subjected to unnecessary and extraordinary medical efforts. At the same time, the Church rejects as morally wrong any willed action on the part of an individual to cause his or her own death or the death of another, when it otherwise would not occur.
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/controversialissues
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« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2013, 03:59:46 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)
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« Reply #76 on: April 01, 2013, 04:04:47 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?
Quit your hair splitting, orthonorm.

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)
I don't know what world you live in, orthonorm, but in my world, we buried a priest from my parish just last year. This side of the great Parousia, everyone dies eventually.
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« Reply #77 on: April 01, 2013, 04:08:48 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?
Quit your hair splitting, orthonorm.

I am not. How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary.

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)
I don't know what world you live in, orthonorm, but in my world, we buried a priest from my parish just last year. This side of the great Parousia, everyone dies eventually.

Let the dead bury the dead.

If you think your Priest is dead, then I have no idea what sorta Christianity you could possibly be believing in. I need help with names of the various heresies, I am not good with that stuff.

Why do you pray to the saints, even perhaps your Priest, if he is dead?
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« Reply #78 on: April 01, 2013, 04:11:58 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?
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« Reply #79 on: April 01, 2013, 04:18:37 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?

We have a term called death which is a nebulous state of being poorly define by many if at all.

But you have Christian belief.

If those who died are dead, then why do you pray to them? What did Christ trample down again?
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« Reply #80 on: April 01, 2013, 04:30:45 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?

We have a term called death which is a nebulous state of being poorly define by many if at all.

But you have Christian belief.

If those who died are dead, then why do you pray to them? What did Christ trample down again?

I really don't know what point you're trying to make.  Whatever it is, it's obviously over my head.  I thought the topic of this thread was the so-called "Right-To-Die Movement", and then you go and get all filosofacal and meddafizzicul on us.

Someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die."


And someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary."

By my admittedly poor and probably quite faulty reckoning, there's gotta be more than one personality here calling itself "orthonorm".
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« Reply #81 on: April 01, 2013, 04:31:12 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?
Quit your hair splitting, orthonorm.

I am not. How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary.

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)
I don't know what world you live in, orthonorm, but in my world, we buried a priest from my parish just last year. This side of the great Parousia, everyone dies eventually.

Let the dead bury the dead.

If you think your Priest is dead, then I have no idea what sorta Christianity you could possibly be believing in. I need help with names of the various heresies, I am not good with that stuff.

Why do you pray to the saints, even perhaps your Priest, if he is dead?

You should know the answer if you're Orthodox.
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« Reply #82 on: April 01, 2013, 04:33:57 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?
Quit your hair splitting, orthonorm.

I am not. How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary.

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)
I don't know what world you live in, orthonorm, but in my world, we buried a priest from my parish just last year. This side of the great Parousia, everyone dies eventually.

Let the dead bury the dead.

If you think your Priest is dead, then I have no idea what sorta Christianity you could possibly be believing in. I need help with names of the various heresies, I am not good with that stuff.

Why do you pray to the saints, even perhaps your Priest, if he is dead?

You should know the answer if you're Orthodox.

They aren't dead. See above.

EDIT: Or see the following:

« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 04:35:37 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #83 on: April 01, 2013, 04:37:24 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?

We have a term called death which is a nebulous state of being poorly define by many if at all.

But you have Christian belief.

If those who died are dead, then why do you pray to them? What did Christ trample down again?

I really don't know what point you're trying to make.  Whatever it is, it's obviously over my head.  I thought the topic of this thread was the so-called "Right-To-Die Movement", and then you go and get all filosofacal and meddafizzicul on us.

Someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die."


And someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary."

By my admittedly poor and probably quite faulty reckoning, there's gotta be more than one personality here calling itself "orthonorm".

And I explain the what lies in between.

There are deaths without dying. And dying without death.

The problem that you are going to run into is orthopraxis, not orthonorm.
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« Reply #84 on: April 01, 2013, 04:44:28 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?
Quit your hair splitting, orthonorm.

I am not. How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary.

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)
I don't know what world you live in, orthonorm, but in my world, we buried a priest from my parish just last year. This side of the great Parousia, everyone dies eventually.

Let the dead bury the dead.

If you think your Priest is dead, then I have no idea what sorta Christianity you could possibly be believing in. I need help with names of the various heresies, I am not good with that stuff.

Why do you pray to the saints, even perhaps your Priest, if he is dead?

You should know the answer if you're Orthodox.

They aren't dead. See above.

Their body is in a grave.  We pray to God to intercede with the soul of the departed servant.  That's not the point of this thread.
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« Reply #85 on: April 01, 2013, 04:54:02 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?

We have a term called death which is a nebulous state of being poorly define by many if at all.

But you have Christian belief.

If those who died are dead, then why do you pray to them? What did Christ trample down again?

I really don't know what point you're trying to make.  Whatever it is, it's obviously over my head.  I thought the topic of this thread was the so-called "Right-To-Die Movement", and then you go and get all filosofacal and meddafizzicul on us.

Someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die."


And someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary."

By my admittedly poor and probably quite faulty reckoning, there's gotta be more than one personality here calling itself "orthonorm".

And I explain the what lies in between.

There are deaths without dying. And dying without death.

The problem that you are going to run into is orthopraxis, not orthonorm.

I don't think I have a problem with orthopraxis (other than not always praxising it properly).  But...I could be deluding myself. Or I could just be far less intelligent than I already give myself credit (??) for being.  I do have a problem understanding at least one of those personalities calling itself "orthonorm".  But...as SolEX01 said, "That's not the point of this thread."
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« Reply #86 on: April 01, 2013, 04:57:25 PM »

I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

It's true. One of the few reasons why I'm ashamed to be Dutch. They'll sometimes pull the plug even without permission.
Actually, were it not for what seems a deeply ingrained work ethic and residual morality, the place would have collapsed into a pile of libertinism.  That it hasn't says much for the resilience of Dutch culture.

That's the result of centuries of calvinism. It's indeed still deep within the Dutch, even if they're not religious anymore. It's curious that the secularisation of the Netherlands was mostly because of the Americanisation of society.
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« Reply #87 on: April 01, 2013, 05:47:16 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?

We have a term called death which is a nebulous state of being poorly define by many if at all.

But you have Christian belief.

If those who died are dead, then why do you pray to them? What did Christ trample down again?

I really don't know what point you're trying to make.  Whatever it is, it's obviously over my head.  I thought the topic of this thread was the so-called "Right-To-Die Movement", and then you go and get all filosofacal and meddafizzicul on us.

Someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die."


And someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary."

By my admittedly poor and probably quite faulty reckoning, there's gotta be more than one personality here calling itself "orthonorm".

And I explain the what lies in between.

There are deaths without dying. And dying without death.

The problem that you are going to run into is orthopraxis, not orthonorm.
When I recite the Creed, I state that I believe in the resurrection of the dead, not the resurrection of the undead.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 05:48:09 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2013, 06:00:50 PM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern.
And you're making a secular argument for what is essentially a religious concern, for truth is truth regardless of what religion you are.

But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
If someone wants to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head or taking an overdose of pills, I suppose there's not a damn thing any law can do to stop him. Is such a person going to be concerned about the law at that point? When such a person calls for the assistance of a physician, however, then we can and should prohibit the physician from assisting in one's suicide and punish any physician who disobeys this prohibition.

Here is a dirty little secret.. if you go to a hospice or even sometimes if you are still in the hospital, they will wait until the family arrives, good byes are said if possible. Then they crank up the morphine..

Ask any nurse..

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« Reply #89 on: April 01, 2013, 06:11:47 PM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

then there's that problem with eager heirs....

Then there is the problem of eager nursing homes who want to drain you of your last cent and keep you alive until they do.

If you are 65 years old today you have a 73% chance of eventually needing Long Term Care. They have turned keeping people alive, yet  debilitated into an Art form. They are artificially keeping people alive past any reasonable natural end.
That too, though at that point you are dealing with the end of the nursing home industry where they are just mausuleums for the living, and even the heirs have given up and there is nothing left.  I seem to remember seeing something about a stay averaging less than 6 months, not enough to go through the average estate.

I also recall that recent case in, was it MN?, where the home wanted to pull the plug but the husband didn't want to, and he had the funds to keep it going.

The average stay is 3 years.. Longer for women.. Longer still if you cut out people who die in the first three months they are there.There is often a period of home care and sometimes Assisted Living before going to a skilled nursing home that is also expensive.

Long Term Care claims run on average between $250,000 and $700,000. $450,000 is what we advise people to have ready. That wipes out most estates and can leave the surviving spouse impoverished or the kids without a meaningful inheritance.
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« Reply #90 on: April 01, 2013, 06:13:16 PM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern.
And you're making a secular argument for what is essentially a religious concern, for truth is truth regardless of what religion you are.

But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
If someone wants to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head or taking an overdose of pills, I suppose there's not a damn thing any law can do to stop him. Is such a person going to be concerned about the law at that point? When such a person calls for the assistance of a physician, however, then we can and should prohibit the physician from assisting in one's suicide and punish any physician who disobeys this prohibition.

Here is a dirty little secret.. if you go to a hospice or even sometimes if you are still in the hospital, they will wait until the family arrives, good byes are said if possible. Then they crank up the morphine..

Ask any nurse..

A family friend spent his final 63 days in the hospital after suffering from mesothelioma.  I don't believe his life was unnecessarily prolonged.  He was alert to the very end.  He couldn't leave the hospital because he couldn't breathe without receiving oxygen through the nose due to having fluid on the lungs.  The nurses at that hospital provided basic care to keep him alive.  This was 2004.

Now you're saying that medical facilities are prolonging the lives of the nearly-dead just to get a few more dollars from the government / private insurance?  Is that trend the reason why my church handed out Living Will documents and a refresher course on how the Orthodox view death?
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« Reply #91 on: April 01, 2013, 06:16:22 PM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

then there's that problem with eager heirs....

Then there is the problem of eager nursing homes who want to drain you of your last cent and keep you alive until they do.

If you are 65 years old today you have a 73% chance of eventually needing Long Term Care. They have turned keeping people alive, yet  debilitated into an Art form. They are artificially keeping people alive past any reasonable natural end.
That too, though at that point you are dealing with the end of the nursing home industry where they are just mausuleums for the living, and even the heirs have given up and there is nothing left.  I seem to remember seeing something about a stay averaging less than 6 months, not enough to go through the average estate.

I also recall that recent case in, was it MN?, where the home wanted to pull the plug but the husband didn't want to, and he had the funds to keep it going.

The average stay is 3 years.. Longer for women.. Longer still if you cut out people who die in the first three months they are there.There is often a period of home care and sometimes Assisted Living before going to a skilled nursing home that is also expensive.

Long Term Care claims run on average between $250,000 and $700,000. $450,000 is what we advise people to have ready. That wipes out most estates and can leave the surviving spouse impoverished or the kids without a meaningful inheritance.

I'm sure the same is true everywhere, estate attorneys are getting a lot of phone calls from people who can't afford Long Term Care and advising people to put assets in trusts in order to become eligible for Medicaid (because Medicaid has some 3 year asset depletion rule for people over 65).
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« Reply #92 on: April 01, 2013, 06:25:22 PM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern.
And you're making a secular argument for what is essentially a religious concern, for truth is truth regardless of what religion you are.

But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
If someone wants to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head or taking an overdose of pills, I suppose there's not a damn thing any law can do to stop him. Is such a person going to be concerned about the law at that point? When such a person calls for the assistance of a physician, however, then we can and should prohibit the physician from assisting in one's suicide and punish any physician who disobeys this prohibition.

Here is a dirty little secret.. if you go to a hospice or even sometimes if you are still in the hospital, they will wait until the family arrives, good byes are said if possible. Then they crank up the morphine..

Ask any nurse..

A family friend spent his final 63 days in the hospital after suffering from mesothelioma.  I don't believe his life was unnecessarily prolonged.  He was alert to the very end.  He couldn't leave the hospital because he couldn't breathe without receiving oxygen through the nose due to having fluid on the lungs.  The nurses at that hospital provided basic care to keep him alive.  This was 2004.

Now you're saying that medical facilities are prolonging the lives of the nearly-dead just to get a few more dollars from the government / private insurance?  Is that trend the reason why my church handed out Living Will documents and a refresher course on how the Orthodox view death?

Things like a do not resuscitate order within a living will or some such is for sudden dramatic situations. However, in my experience, if someone is choking they will step in or if they have the flu they will give anti-biotics no matter what your living will says. There are big bucks at stake.

But the main thing is the feeding tube. They will find a way to get one in and then you have bought a couple of years of twilite life.

I have unfortunately spent a lot of time in nursing homes, plus it is also related to my business ( I am a Long Term Care Insurance Specialist).

People start to atrophy. Their hands curl up. They permanently assume the fetal position. They are fed by tube. Sometime they vocalize little screams every few minutes..... Too often they are more dead than alive.

 People deserve a better end than that.

"Dear kids,

Have them hit me up with a lots of morphine when the time comes

God will understand. "

Marc
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« Reply #93 on: April 01, 2013, 06:35:29 PM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern.
And you're making a secular argument for what is essentially a religious concern, for truth is truth regardless of what religion you are.

But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
If someone wants to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head or taking an overdose of pills, I suppose there's not a damn thing any law can do to stop him. Is such a person going to be concerned about the law at that point? When such a person calls for the assistance of a physician, however, then we can and should prohibit the physician from assisting in one's suicide and punish any physician who disobeys this prohibition.

Here is a dirty little secret.. if you go to a hospice or even sometimes if you are still in the hospital, they will wait until the family arrives, good byes are said if possible. Then they crank up the morphine..

Ask any nurse..



No doubt.
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« Reply #94 on: April 01, 2013, 06:35:59 PM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

then there's that problem with eager heirs....

Then there is the problem of eager nursing homes who want to drain you of your last cent and keep you alive until they do.

If you are 65 years old today you have a 73% chance of eventually needing Long Term Care. They have turned keeping people alive, yet  debilitated into an Art form. They are artificially keeping people alive past any reasonable natural end.
That too, though at that point you are dealing with the end of the nursing home industry where they are just mausuleums for the living, and even the heirs have given up and there is nothing left.  I seem to remember seeing something about a stay averaging less than 6 months, not enough to go through the average estate.

I also recall that recent case in, was it MN?, where the home wanted to pull the plug but the husband didn't want to, and he had the funds to keep it going.

The average stay is 3 years.. Longer for women.. Longer still if you cut out people who die in the first three months they are there.There is often a period of home care and sometimes Assisted Living before going to a skilled nursing home that is also expensive.

Long Term Care claims run on average between $250,000 and $700,000. $450,000 is what we advise people to have ready. That wipes out most estates and can leave the surviving spouse impoverished or the kids without a meaningful inheritance.

I'm sure the same is true everywhere, estate attorneys are getting a lot of phone calls from people who can't afford Long Term Care and advising people to put assets in trusts in order to become eligible for Medicaid (because Medicaid has some 3 year asset depletion rule for people over 65).

Putting on my professional hat for a moment..

There is no dodgy way around the costs of Long Term Care anymore. Things like "putting your money into a trust", is no longer allowable.

There is now a five year look back period for dis allowed transfers of money ( attempt's hide it or give it away so you can get on Medicaide).
If they find any, the penalty period BEGINS from when you get sick enough to need care. There are no more tricky ways around paying your bill unless you give everything away to your kids five years or more before needing care..Good luck with that.

If someone is too poor to purchase Long Term Care Insurance then they have no business going to an estate attorney. If they are poor, then they run through all their money until it gets down to $2,500. in most States and then they go on welfare, Medicaid. If there is a well spouse involved than there is some allowances made for his or her upkeep. Medicaid only pays for Nursing Homes, no home care or assisted living.

Only three things pay for Long Term Care: 1. Your own cash 2. Welfare 3. Insurance
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« Reply #95 on: April 01, 2013, 06:37:20 PM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern.
And you're making a secular argument for what is essentially a religious concern, for truth is truth regardless of what religion you are.

But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
If someone wants to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head or taking an overdose of pills, I suppose there's not a damn thing any law can do to stop him. Is such a person going to be concerned about the law at that point? When such a person calls for the assistance of a physician, however, then we can and should prohibit the physician from assisting in one's suicide and punish any physician who disobeys this prohibition.

Here is a dirty little secret.. if you go to a hospice or even sometimes if you are still in the hospital, they will wait until the family arrives, good byes are said if possible. Then they crank up the morphine..

Ask any nurse..

A family friend spent his final 63 days in the hospital after suffering from mesothelioma.  I don't believe his life was unnecessarily prolonged.  He was alert to the very end.  He couldn't leave the hospital because he couldn't breathe without receiving oxygen through the nose due to having fluid on the lungs.  The nurses at that hospital provided basic care to keep him alive.  This was 2004.

Now you're saying that medical facilities are prolonging the lives of the nearly-dead just to get a few more dollars from the government / private insurance?  Is that trend the reason why my church handed out Living Will documents and a refresher course on how the Orthodox view death?

Things like a do not resuscitate order within a living will or some such is for sudden dramatic situations. However, in my experience, if someone is choking they will step in or if they have the flu they will give anti-biotics no matter what your living will says. There are big bucks at stake.

But the main thing is the feeding tube. They will find a way to get one in and then you have bought a couple of years of twilite life.

The medical facility will do what it wants to do independent of my wishes or the wishes of my "Health Care Agent" specified in my living will.

I have unfortunately spent a lot of time in nursing homes, plus it is also related to my business ( I am a Long Term Care Insurance Specialist).

People start to atrophy. Their hands curl up. They permanently assume the fetal position. They are fed by tube. Sometime they vocalize little screams every few minutes..... Too often they are more dead than alive.

 People deserve a better end than that.

Was it the Terri Schiavo case that gave medical facilities the right to use these life prolonging measures?

"Dear kids,

Have them hit me up with a lots of morphine when the time comes

God will understand. "

Marc

Is that allowed for a living will, to die from a morphine overdose?
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« Reply #96 on: April 01, 2013, 06:44:12 PM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

then there's that problem with eager heirs....

Then there is the problem of eager nursing homes who want to drain you of your last cent and keep you alive until they do.

If you are 65 years old today you have a 73% chance of eventually needing Long Term Care. They have turned keeping people alive, yet  debilitated into an Art form. They are artificially keeping people alive past any reasonable natural end.
That too, though at that point you are dealing with the end of the nursing home industry where they are just mausuleums for the living, and even the heirs have given up and there is nothing left.  I seem to remember seeing something about a stay averaging less than 6 months, not enough to go through the average estate.

I also recall that recent case in, was it MN?, where the home wanted to pull the plug but the husband didn't want to, and he had the funds to keep it going.

The average stay is 3 years.. Longer for women.. Longer still if you cut out people who die in the first three months they are there.There is often a period of home care and sometimes Assisted Living before going to a skilled nursing home that is also expensive.

Long Term Care claims run on average between $250,000 and $700,000. $450,000 is what we advise people to have ready. That wipes out most estates and can leave the surviving spouse impoverished or the kids without a meaningful inheritance.

I'm sure the same is true everywhere, estate attorneys are getting a lot of phone calls from people who can't afford Long Term Care and advising people to put assets in trusts in order to become eligible for Medicaid (because Medicaid has some 3 year asset depletion rule for people over 65).

Putting on my professional hat for a moment..

There is no dodgy way around the costs of Long Term Care anymore. Things like "putting your money into a trust", is no longer allowable.

What's changed?
 
There is now a five year look back period for dis allowed transfers of money ( attempt's hide it or give it away so you can get on Medicaide).
If they find any, the penalty period BEGINS from when you get sick enough to need care. There are no more tricky ways around paying your bill unless you give everything away to your kids five years or more before needing care..Good luck with that.

I thought the trust allowed one to give away all assets while continuing to receive income, or sell them (e.g. property).

If someone is too poor to purchase Long Term Care Insurance then they have no business going to an estate attorney. If they are poor, then they run through all their money until it gets down to $2,500. in most States and then they go on welfare, Medicaid. If there is a well spouse involved than there is some allowances made for his or her upkeep. Medicaid only pays for Nursing Homes, no home care or assisted living.

Only three things pay for Long Term Care: 1. Your own cash 2. Welfare 3. Insurance

Welfare = Medicaid which is not covered anywhere else but a Nursing Home?
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« Reply #97 on: April 01, 2013, 06:46:51 PM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern.
And you're making a secular argument for what is essentially a religious concern, for truth is truth regardless of what religion you are.

But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
If someone wants to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head or taking an overdose of pills, I suppose there's not a damn thing any law can do to stop him. Is such a person going to be concerned about the law at that point? When such a person calls for the assistance of a physician, however, then we can and should prohibit the physician from assisting in one's suicide and punish any physician who disobeys this prohibition.

Here is a dirty little secret.. if you go to a hospice or even sometimes if you are still in the hospital, they will wait until the family arrives, good byes are said if possible. Then they crank up the morphine..

Ask any nurse..

A family friend spent his final 63 days in the hospital after suffering from mesothelioma.  I don't believe his life was unnecessarily prolonged.  He was alert to the very end.  He couldn't leave the hospital because he couldn't breathe without receiving oxygen through the nose due to having fluid on the lungs.  The nurses at that hospital provided basic care to keep him alive.  This was 2004.

Now you're saying that medical facilities are prolonging the lives of the nearly-dead just to get a few more dollars from the government / private insurance?  Is that trend the reason why my church handed out Living Will documents and a refresher course on how the Orthodox view death?

Things like a do not resuscitate order within a living will or some such is for sudden dramatic situations. However, in my experience, if someone is choking they will step in or if they have the flu they will give anti-biotics no matter what your living will says. There are big bucks at stake.

But the main thing is the feeding tube. They will find a way to get one in and then you have bought a couple of years of twilite life.

The medical facility will do what it wants to do independent of my wishes or the wishes of my "Health Care Agent" specified in my living will.

I have unfortunately spent a lot of time in nursing homes, plus it is also related to my business ( I am a Long Term Care Insurance Specialist).

People start to atrophy. Their hands curl up. They permanently assume the fetal position. They are fed by tube. Sometime they vocalize little screams every few minutes..... Too often they are more dead than alive.

 People deserve a better end than that.

Was it the Terri Schiavo case that gave medical facilities the right to use these life prolonging measures?

"Dear kids,

Have them hit me up with a lots of morphine when the time comes

God will understand. "

Marc

Is that allowed for a living will, to die from a morphine overdose?


Living wills are good. You should have one. Just don't be naive about it. Having a strong family advocate that hovers over you like a hawk is really the best thing IMHO.

Also, money talks. Having enough either through your savings or Insurance to throw at the situation can keep you out of the nursing home by being able to afford lots of home care and then an assisted living facility.. Assisted Living facilities are rather nice places most of the time.
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« Reply #98 on: April 01, 2013, 06:53:51 PM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

then there's that problem with eager heirs....

Then there is the problem of eager nursing homes who want to drain you of your last cent and keep you alive until they do.

If you are 65 years old today you have a 73% chance of eventually needing Long Term Care. They have turned keeping people alive, yet  debilitated into an Art form. They are artificially keeping people alive past any reasonable natural end.
That too, though at that point you are dealing with the end of the nursing home industry where they are just mausuleums for the living, and even the heirs have given up and there is nothing left.  I seem to remember seeing something about a stay averaging less than 6 months, not enough to go through the average estate.

I also recall that recent case in, was it MN?, where the home wanted to pull the plug but the husband didn't want to, and he had the funds to keep it going.

The average stay is 3 years.. Longer for women.. Longer still if you cut out people who die in the first three months they are there.There is often a period of home care and sometimes Assisted Living before going to a skilled nursing home that is also expensive.

Long Term Care claims run on average between $250,000 and $700,000. $450,000 is what we advise people to have ready. That wipes out most estates and can leave the surviving spouse impoverished or the kids without a meaningful inheritance.

I'm sure the same is true everywhere, estate attorneys are getting a lot of phone calls from people who can't afford Long Term Care and advising people to put assets in trusts in order to become eligible for Medicaid (because Medicaid has some 3 year asset depletion rule for people over 65).

Putting on my professional hat for a moment..

There is no dodgy way around the costs of Long Term Care anymore. Things like "putting your money into a trust", is no longer allowable.

What's changed?
 
There is now a five year look back period for dis allowed transfers of money ( attempt's hide it or give it away so you can get on Medicaide).
If they find any, the penalty period BEGINS from when you get sick enough to need care. There are no more tricky ways around paying your bill unless you give everything away to your kids five years or more before needing care..Good luck with that.

I thought the trust allowed one to give away all assets while continuing to receive income, or sell them (e.g. property).

If someone is too poor to purchase Long Term Care Insurance then they have no business going to an estate attorney. If they are poor, then they run through all their money until it gets down to $2,500. in most States and then they go on welfare, Medicaid. If there is a well spouse involved than there is some allowances made for his or her upkeep. Medicaid only pays for Nursing Homes, no home care or assisted living.

Only three things pay for Long Term Care: 1. Your own cash 2. Welfare 3. Insurance

Welfare = Medicaid which is not covered anywhere else but a Nursing Home?

They turned the screws down about 2 years ago. They have put many Medicaid Planning Attorneys out of business, though there is still a narrow use for them.

No trusts. No annuities... no giving your stuff away. Not only is there a FIVE YEAR look back, but if you incur a penalty  period ( a time period that you cant get on medicaid) it used to run from when you made the illegal transfer. NOW, it starts from when you actually need the care. 

Medicaid only pays for a skilled Nursing Home. No Home Care. No assisted living, There are  some very very minor exceptions.
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« Reply #99 on: April 01, 2013, 07:04:09 PM »

Another thing... You are making a religious argument for a secular concern.
And you're making a secular argument for what is essentially a religious concern, for truth is truth regardless of what religion you are.

But why should those who have a different understanding of God, or perhaps no faith in God at all, be forced to comply with specific religious dogmas when it comes to one of the most important parts of their lives: dying?
If someone wants to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head or taking an overdose of pills, I suppose there's not a damn thing any law can do to stop him. Is such a person going to be concerned about the law at that point? When such a person calls for the assistance of a physician, however, then we can and should prohibit the physician from assisting in one's suicide and punish any physician who disobeys this prohibition.

Here is a dirty little secret.. if you go to a hospice or even sometimes if you are still in the hospital, they will wait until the family arrives, good byes are said if possible. Then they crank up the morphine..

Ask any nurse..


Yes, there is a very fine line between giving someone enough morphine to alleviate the intense pain some experience in their last days and giving someone a morphine overdose. I'm not going to judge any nurse that does this since that line is different for each patient. There's just no way of knowing that the morphine you think is enough to ease the pain is actually just a tad too much.
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« Reply #100 on: April 02, 2013, 01:53:04 AM »

I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

It's true. One of the few reasons why I'm ashamed to be Dutch. They'll sometimes pull the plug even without permission.
Actually, were it not for what seems a deeply ingrained work ethic and residual morality, the place would have collapsed into a pile of libertinism.  That it hasn't says much for the resilience of Dutch culture.

That's the result of centuries of calvinism. It's indeed still deep within the Dutch, even if they're not religious anymore. It's curious that the secularisation of the Netherlands was mostly because of the Americanisation of society.
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« Reply #101 on: April 02, 2013, 05:08:15 AM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

Quote
55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?

We have a term called death which is a nebulous state of being poorly define by many if at all.

But you have Christian belief.

If those who died are dead, then why do you pray to them? What did Christ trample down again?

I really don't know what point you're trying to make.  Whatever it is, it's obviously over my head.  I thought the topic of this thread was the so-called "Right-To-Die Movement", and then you go and get all filosofacal and meddafizzicul on us.

Someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die."


And someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary."

By my admittedly poor and probably quite faulty reckoning, there's gotta be more than one personality here calling itself "orthonorm".

And I explain the what lies in between.

There are deaths without dying. And dying without death.

The problem that you are going to run into is orthopraxis, not orthonorm.
When I recite the Creed, I state that I believe in the resurrection of the dead, not the resurrection of the undead.

Quote
52 And the kevarim (graves) were opened, and many gufot (bodies) of the kadoshim who had fallen asleep were made to stand up alive.
53 And coming out of the kevarim after the Techiyas HaMoshiach, they entered the Ir Hakodesh (Holy City) and appeared to many.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027&version=OJB
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« Reply #102 on: April 02, 2013, 01:15:03 PM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool
Was Christ's resurrection merely a spiritual resurrection, such that His bones can still be found in the tomb?

this reminds me, one time a person I know was invited to a birthday party where the folks were Bahai , and one guest was ridiculing the orthodox teaching of Christ's Resurrection saying' well the reason they did not find anything in the tomb was because Jesus had told his disciples that eating his flesh and drinking his blood would make them live forever.so they must have taken him at his word' and the person I know replied ' you are right Christ did teach that whoever eats his flesh and drinks of his blood shall have Eternal Life. but as you would recall, he never said anything about chewing his bones, so you see if they had come at night and cannibalized him , the Romans would have found his bones in the tomb.' the clown laughed then quickly changed the subject.
My Bahai friend, who is a very righteous person in conduct, maintains that Christ was a spirit, as "a spirit does not have flesh and bones as I have" leaves out "blood", which is the only real marker of a physical being.

hehehe, Nicholas, its incredible how grown up people reason this way. those present in that event were older mature people who appear for the most part very devout people. that man was at some point Orthodox he knew few words here and there in the liturgical language, he had gray hair. the person that answers him was only 19 yrs old at time and trying hard to be respectful as a guest and towards the man, while this man was going all out to prove his knowledge of the christian Bible and orthodoxy and his disdain for what he called all those who misunderstood Christ. his argument was irrational, it was all over the place, the cannibalism theory was said in a joke but the point was made to reaffirm the previous one he made about the apostles being totally ignorant of what Christ meant. he said Christ told them that his words are spirit and the flesh counts for nothing  on John 6 and they still continued thinking he was talking about his flesh and blood.


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« Reply #103 on: April 12, 2013, 10:25:20 AM »

Quote
Debates about medically-assisted suicide usually obsess about whether suicide itself is ever justifiable. Religious people, medical folks, lawyers and others weigh in with high-sounding moral opinion, usually grounded more in emotion than reason. Obviously, suicide is a sad business; we do well to throw every possible resource at staving it off, particularly among the young. But people end their own lives, despite our best efforts and whether or not we approve. The real question about the medically-assisted version is not whether it’s good or bad, but rather, who gets to make the final decision about a particular life — the person or the state. I’ve watched some terrible endings — and don’t let doctors tell you they can always control pain these days. Still, I don’t know if I could counsel someone else to end their life prematurely; that sets up significant ethical dissonance in me. But I do know that the decision properly belongs to the person directly involved, not to disinterested bystanders obsessed with legal, financial or moral niceties.

http://www.thestar.com/life/2013/04/11/susan_griffiths_case_highlights_need_for_assisted_suicide_in_canada.html
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« Reply #104 on: April 12, 2013, 10:31:22 AM »

Quote
Debates about medically-assisted suicide usually obsess about whether suicide itself is ever justifiable. Religious people, medical folks, lawyers and others weigh in with high-sounding moral opinion, usually grounded more in emotion than reason. Obviously, suicide is a sad business; we do well to throw every possible resource at staving it off, particularly among the young. But people end their own lives, despite our best efforts and whether or not we approve. The real question about the medically-assisted version is not whether it’s good or bad, but rather, who gets to make the final decision about a particular life — the person or the state. I’ve watched some terrible endings — and don’t let doctors tell you they can always control pain these days. Still, I don’t know if I could counsel someone else to end their life prematurely; that sets up significant ethical dissonance in me. But I do know that the decision properly belongs to the person directly involved, not to disinterested bystanders obsessed with legal, financial or moral niceties.

http://www.thestar.com/life/2013/04/11/susan_griffiths_case_highlights_need_for_assisted_suicide_in_canada.html

Well, I suppose any response to that that might be seen to disagree could be discredited and dismissed as being high-sounding opinion, grounded in emotion.  Wink

Not sure what point you were trying to make.
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« Reply #105 on: April 12, 2013, 10:38:57 AM »

Quote
Debates about medically-assisted suicide usually obsess about whether suicide itself is ever justifiable. Religious people, medical folks, lawyers and others weigh in with high-sounding moral opinion, usually grounded more in emotion than reason. Obviously, suicide is a sad business; we do well to throw every possible resource at staving it off, particularly among the young. But people end their own lives, despite our best efforts and whether or not we approve. The real question about the medically-assisted version is not whether it’s good or bad, but rather, who gets to make the final decision about a particular life — the person or the state. I’ve watched some terrible endings — and don’t let doctors tell you they can always control pain these days. Still, I don’t know if I could counsel someone else to end their life prematurely; that sets up significant ethical dissonance in me. But I do know that the decision properly belongs to the person directly involved, not to disinterested bystanders obsessed with legal, financial or moral niceties.

http://www.thestar.com/life/2013/04/11/susan_griffiths_case_highlights_need_for_assisted_suicide_in_canada.html

Well, I suppose any response to that that might be seen to disagree could be discredited and dismissed as being high-sounding opinion, grounded in emotion.  Wink

Not sure what point you were trying to make.

Just sharing a relevant-to-this-thread news article - which I think makes some salient points - for peoples' consideration.
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« Reply #106 on: April 12, 2013, 10:45:02 AM »

Quote
Debates about medically-assisted suicide usually obsess about whether suicide itself is ever justifiable. Religious people, medical folks, lawyers and others weigh in with high-sounding moral opinion, usually grounded more in emotion than reason. Obviously, suicide is a sad business; we do well to throw every possible resource at staving it off, particularly among the young. But people end their own lives, despite our best efforts and whether or not we approve. The real question about the medically-assisted version is not whether it’s good or bad, but rather, who gets to make the final decision about a particular life — the person or the state. I’ve watched some terrible endings — and don’t let doctors tell you they can always control pain these days. Still, I don’t know if I could counsel someone else to end their life prematurely; that sets up significant ethical dissonance in me. But I do know that the decision properly belongs to the person directly involved, not to disinterested bystanders obsessed with legal, financial or moral niceties.

http://www.thestar.com/life/2013/04/11/susan_griffiths_case_highlights_need_for_assisted_suicide_in_canada.html

Well, I suppose any response to that that might be seen to disagree could be discredited and dismissed as being high-sounding opinion, grounded in emotion.  Wink

Not sure what point you were trying to make.

Just sharing a relevant-to-this-thread news article - which I think makes some salient points - for peoples' consideration.

Okee dokee  Wink.
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Daedelus1138
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« Reply #107 on: May 13, 2013, 09:43:17 AM »

   It's nice to see a diversity of opinions here among Orthodox Christians on this topic.

  This is obvious to me: technology has given us godlike powers but this same technology brings its own slavery- the medicalization of death is an obvious example of this-  we cannot avoid it and it leads to conflicts of our deepest values.

 After homosexuality, euthanasia will be the next big issue Christias must face and think about theologically and try to come up with new answers to new problems, especially as baby boomers start to approach their golden years and the social safety nets of post-industrial nations are strained.

  I find it noteworthy that the Stoics had alot in common with Christians in their ethos, yet they did not condemn suicide in extraordinary circumstances.
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« Reply #108 on: May 13, 2013, 06:18:30 PM »

  It's nice to see a diversity of opinions here among Orthodox Christians on this topic.

There is no diversity of opinions. There is one rogue poster advocating euthanasia who does not even claim he is representing authentic Orthodox teaching.
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« Reply #109 on: May 13, 2013, 06:22:29 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

In some cases, yes.

It's okay to ask someone else to commit a serious sin (murder) that God will judge them for?
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« Reply #110 on: May 24, 2013, 09:43:35 PM »

The debate is a tough one, from the both the loved ones perspective and the one who is going through it. To many families decide to soon I think, because of their emotions, while some will keep their loved one alive longer than should be..due to emotions also...........  I've had the pleasure of the majority of my work being in long term care, sitting with many who are passing......with no family or friends around......I think some make the decision too early to end a life due to age , condition, disease, etc.  I know my life has been blessed by being there with all those I have been with during their last weeks, days, hours minutes, seconds,  It has made me more aware of God more than any theological debates ever, He is there. Kind of interesting to me that it never mattered what the persons own beliefs or lack of belief was.......and many I have had the pleasure of knowing and taking care of during that time period in their life-you can tell-  they know God and His Angels are there.... I've been very surprised by who-and how they were able to communicate it. Would they have been better off going before natural death in this life took place? (I don't believe so...........well, thats not exactly right- I know so............no, they would not of been better off having someone make that decision for them at an earlier time )
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« Reply #111 on: November 21, 2013, 01:16:58 PM »

At a time of national debate over health care costs and insurance, a Pew Research Center survey on end-of-life decisions finds most Americans say there are some circumstances in which doctors and nurses should allow a patient to die. At the same time, however, a growing minority says that medical professionals should do everything possible to save a patient’s life in all circumstances.
....
About half of white evangelical Protestants and black Protestants reject the idea that a person has a moral right to suicide in all four circumstances described in the survey. By comparison, the religiously unaffiliated, white mainline Protestants and white Catholics are more likely to say there is a moral right to commit suicide in each of the four situations considered.
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« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 01:21:38 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #112 on: November 21, 2013, 02:10:11 PM »

Do you really think it's ok to ask someone else, family member, friend, or "medical expert" to kill you?

Anything less is barbaric...  though it should either be a doctor or yourself who does the deed.
Death is barbaric.

I am going to agree with no one here likely since it seems maybe two poster have even a ballpark notion of what is going on, but how on earth I must ask is death barbaric?

That comment makes no sense Peter. Death is something alien to the Greeks?

And guess what folks, if you are Christian, you ain't dying. It's OK.

You either believe this or you don't. Most here don't. Hard to argue with a corpse I know and yet that is what it seems to me to be the radical break made in Christianity is.

You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die.

As St. Paul writes:

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55EHI DEVARECHA MAVET EHI KATAVECHA SHEOL? ("Where are your plagues, O Death? Where is your destruction, O Sheol?" HOSHEA 13:14) 56Now the sting of death is chet (sin) and the ko'ach (power) of chet (sin) is chukkat haTorah [see Dt 27:26; Ga 3:113; Ro 7:7-13]. 57But Baruch Hashem, Who is giving us the nitzachon (victory) through Adoneinu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach.

http://ojb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm

The last shofar has sounded! chukkat haTorah is broken! Chet is forgiven! (And so is everyone else.)

What do you call it when all of a person's biological functions permanently (well, this side of the Parousia, referring to the second coming of Christ, anyway) cease?

We have a term called death which is a nebulous state of being poorly define by many if at all.

But you have Christian belief.

If those who died are dead, then why do you pray to them? What did Christ trample down again?

I really don't know what point you're trying to make.  Whatever it is, it's obviously over my head.  I thought the topic of this thread was the so-called "Right-To-Die Movement", and then you go and get all filosofacal and meddafizzicul on us.

Someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "You don't die.

Not physically.
Not spiritually.

You don't die."


And someone called "orthonorm" wrote this: "How is death barbaric? Sometimes it is quite wonderful for many. It is certainly necessary."

By my admittedly poor and probably quite faulty reckoning, there's gotta be more than one personality here calling itself "orthonorm".

And I explain the what lies in between.

There are deaths without dying. And dying without death.

The problem that you are going to run into is orthopraxis, not orthonorm.
When I recite the Creed, I state that I believe in the resurrection of the dead, not the resurrection of the undead.

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52 And the kevarim (graves) were opened, and many gufot (bodies) of the kadoshim who had fallen asleep were made to stand up alive.
53 And coming out of the kevarim after the Techiyas HaMoshiach, they entered the Ir Hakodesh (Holy City) and appeared to many.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027&version=OJB

Wow. I kill myself!

LOL!
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« Reply #113 on: November 22, 2013, 03:48:04 AM »

dont worry guys some time soon ill post a homily from St. John Chrysostom about a certain martyr who drowned her own daughters!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 03:48:14 AM by Gunnarr » Logged

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