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Author Topic: Positive Step for the Right-To-Die Movement  (Read 2858 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: March 30, 2013, 06:10:18 AM »

Arizona man, 86, sentenced to probation after mercy killing of his ailing wife

There was no doubt 86-year-old George Sanders killed his ailing wife. Yet everyone in the small Arizona courtroom — the prosecutor, the judge and even the couple's family members — agreed it was a time for compassion, not punishment...
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2013, 06:28:36 AM »

Watch out with the right-to-die movement. You give them a finger and they take the whole hand.
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2013, 07:34:10 AM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2013, 07:48:16 AM »

Perhaps it's just the right time. There's a reason Amour has been such a runaway success.
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2013, 07:59:54 AM »

How to Die in Oregon (2011) is a good, albeit sometimes painful documentary about the right-to-die issue. Highly recommended.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1715802/
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2013, 10:55:07 AM »

My grandmother ended up with gangrene in her foot - my uncle decided to with-hold care - which is how she died...from gangrene poisoning.  She died an incredibly painful death - and my heart aches for that.  My uncle ended up with dementia and died in a nursing home in diapers. 

I don't know what the best decision would have been - only God sees the heart.  This man was acting in compassion to his wife, and in love. . . as much as he could, he probably did the hardest thing he ever did in his life because he loved her so much. . .but God sees more than I do, or anyone else for that matter.  What were the motives of my uncle ordering the treatment to be withheld from my grandmother so that she would die from the gangrene?  I don't know.  I wasn't there in his heart.  I try not to judge, but I confess, I'm not very good at it in this case.  There were too many things that he benefited from by her death.

But God sees the heart.  And He said 'vengence is mine, I will repay.'  I can trust that.  My uncle was a brilliant man - a doctor - and he died in diapers. 

This man who shot his wife - somehow I think Justice was served better with mercy.  What a beautiful painful thing to witness in the news.
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2013, 11:42:55 AM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2013, 11:49:41 AM »

Be careful, this is only an inch away from "You have a right to die, whether you want it or not."
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2013, 11:55:05 AM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

For us, I don't think that's even an argument. . . as Christians. . .as Orthodox Christians. . .we trust in something Higher.  But we are still to judge with mercy - judging correctly. 

For the world?  It doesn't have that hope.  Their understanding of life and the trampling down of death doesn't exist. 

But to live is Christ, to die is gain.  However it happens, for whatever reason it happens. . . mercy triumphs over judgement.  Love conquers a multitude of sin.  Even the most heinous acts . . . can be covered by His Grace. 
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2013, 12:32:51 PM »

Be careful, this is only an inch away from "You have a right to die, whether you want it or not."

This. It is already happening in Europe.
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2013, 12:40:45 PM »

Be careful, this is only an inch away from "You have a right to die, whether you want it or not."

This. It is already happening in Europe.

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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2013, 12:42:16 PM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2013, 01:07:53 PM »

Be careful, this is only an inch away from "You have a right to die, whether you want it or not."

This. It is already happening in Europe.



Which has been proven by experience.
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2013, 02:13:01 PM »

Grandma needs to die with dignity or we'll miss our cruise next week.
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2013, 02:37:57 PM »

If I were to ever develop dementia or Alzheimer's or any of the other mental conditions when I become an old person, I'd like to be put down than live without my right mind.
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2013, 05:02:14 PM »

decent palliative care is not as difficult as the proponents of euthanasia try to make out.
the first hospices were in the monasteries in europe, western asia and north africa, where terminally ill people would be treated with dignity (didn't involve premature death) and love, instead of being left to die in pain at home or on the street.

it's interesting how the generation that invented the widespread abortion of babies now risks being killed prematurely in old age.
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2013, 05:39:06 PM »

decent palliative care is not as difficult as the proponents of euthanasia try to make out.
the first hospices were in the monasteries in europe, western asia and north africa, where terminally ill people would be treated with dignity (didn't involve premature death) and love, instead of being left to die in pain at home or on the street.

it's interesting how the generation that invented the widespread abortion of babies now risks being killed prematurely in old age.
 Sad


In my experience, decent palliative care isn't always good enough.
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2013, 05:43:28 PM »

If I were to ever develop dementia or Alzheimer's or any of the other mental conditions when I become an old person, I'd like to be put down than live without my right mind.

If you ever develop dementia or alzheimers (God forbid), you probably won't care.
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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2013, 05:48:04 PM »

If I were to ever develop dementia or Alzheimer's or any of the other mental conditions when I become an old person, I'd like to be put down than live without my right mind.

What makes you so sure you are in your right mind now?
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2013, 05:51:03 PM »

it's interesting how the generation that invented the widespread abortion of babies now risks being killed prematurely in old age.
 Sad


I recently read that many more people are living far longer than what was previously deemed natural, and because of this, more people are experiencing greater amounts of old-age suffering. In ways, perhaps we're living too long nowadays. Also, I read that doctors often refuse to receive many of the life extending treatments that others receive automatically (unless they find ways to opt out). This is because they know that their suffering will only be protracted if they are kept alive. Some food for thought.
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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2013, 05:51:32 PM »

If I were to ever develop dementia or Alzheimer's or any of the other mental conditions when I become an old person, I'd like to be put down than live without my right mind.

If you ever develop dementia or alzheimers (God forbid), you probably won't care.

At least you get to meet new people every day.


A man goes to the doctor to get the results of some tests.

I have bad news. You have cancer.

That's terrible

But that's not all. You also have alzheimers.

Well.............. At least I dont have cancer.
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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2013, 06:01:09 PM »

"Death with dignity" is, to me, nothing more than a euphemism for control. "I'm taking control of my life away from God and into my own hands so I can die as I see fit." Because this desire for control focuses on "what I want", it's generally very selfish and in accordance with the mind of this fallen world, not with the mind of Christ. Who's to say, though, that one's life can't be a blessing to other people even in death (an unhastened death according solely to God's timing)?
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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2013, 06:04:35 PM »

"Death with dignity" is, to me, nothing more than a euphemism for control. "I'm taking control of my life away from God and into my own hands so I can die as I see fit." Because this desire for control focuses on "what I want", it's generally very selfish and in accordance with the mind of this fallen world, not with the mind of Christ. Who's to say, though, that one's life can't be a blessing to other people even in death (an unhastened death according solely to God's timing)?

If helping a loved one avoid days or weeks of terrible and unnecessary suffering is selfishness, then go ahead and call me a selfish man.  Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2013, 06:09:48 PM »

"Death with dignity" is, to me, nothing more than a euphemism for control. "I'm taking control of my life away from God and into my own hands so I can die as I see fit." Because this desire for control focuses on "what I want", it's generally very selfish and in accordance with the mind of this fallen world, not with the mind of Christ. Who's to say, though, that one's life can't be a blessing to other people even in death (an unhastened death according solely to God's timing)?

If helping a loved one avoid days or weeks of terrible and unnecessary suffering is selfishness, then go ahead and call me a selfish man.  Smiley
By whose standards are you judging someone's suffering terrible and unnecessary: the mind of this fallen world, or the mind of Christ?
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2013, 06:23:22 PM »

"Death with dignity" is, to me, nothing more than a euphemism for control. "I'm taking control of my life away from God and into my own hands so I can die as I see fit." Because this desire for control focuses on "what I want", it's generally very selfish and in accordance with the mind of this fallen world, not with the mind of Christ. Who's to say, though, that one's life can't be a blessing to other people even in death (an unhastened death according solely to God's timing)?

If helping a loved one avoid days or weeks of terrible and unnecessary suffering is selfishness, then go ahead and call me a selfish man.  Smiley
By whose standards are you judging someone's suffering terrible and unnecessary: the mind of this fallen world, or the mind of Christ?

Oh, what a load of hooey. In this case, I am judging someone's suffering terrible and unnecessary by her own words. And my own observations. Surely you don't think that all suffering has a point or is God-ordained? If it does, that is one warped God, isn't it? It would make Him complicit in the torture of millions of humans and animals.

Let's be real, here...  Cry

In cases of terrible suffering, where all hope for survival is lost, by far the most merciful thing to do is give the sufferer the right to die on his/her own terms. Surely our great God wouldn't be eternally offended if we wrested control from Him for just a moment in order to end someone's agony.
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2013, 06:40:57 PM »

I am sorry for being snarky, Peter. The painful memories of my mom dying are still fresh and vivid for me, as it occurred two years ago around this time. It's hard for me not to take this discussion personally. So I should probably leave it alone. Forgive me, peeps!
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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2013, 06:54:22 PM »

Here's a thought; if someone had a really bad sin and truly could not stop doing it, would it be better for him to commit suicide so that he doesn't do it anymore, or to keep doing the sin?
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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2013, 07:33:40 PM »

Here's a thought; if someone had a really bad sin and truly could not stop doing it, would it be better for him to commit suicide so that he doesn't do it anymore, or to keep doing the sin?
Why compound the sin by committing the ultimate sin?
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2013, 07:43:48 PM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool
* is risen from vague spiritual unpleasantness,
Trampling down vague spiritual unpleasantness by vague spiritual unpleasantness,
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« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2013, 07:49:55 PM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool
Was Christ's resurrection merely a spiritual resurrection, such that His bones can still be found in the tomb?
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« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2013, 08:24:43 PM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool
Was Christ's resurrection merely a spiritual resurrection, such that His bones can still be found in the tomb?

this reminds me, one time a person I know was invited to a birthday party where the folks were Bahai , and one guest was ridiculing the orthodox teaching of Christ's Resurrection saying' well the reason they did not find anything in the tomb was because Jesus had told his disciples that eating his flesh and drinking his blood would make them live forever.so they must have taken him at his word' and the person I know replied ' you are right Christ did teach that whoever eats his flesh and drinks of his blood shall have Eternal Life. but as you would recall, he never said anything about chewing his bones, so you see if they had come at night and cannibalized him , the Romans would have found his bones in the tomb.' the clown laughed then quickly changed the subject.
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« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2013, 09:19:09 PM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool
Was Christ's resurrection merely a spiritual resurrection, such that His bones can still be found in the tomb?

this reminds me, one time a person I know was invited to a birthday party where the folks were Bahai , and one guest was ridiculing the orthodox teaching of Christ's Resurrection saying' well the reason they did not find anything in the tomb was because Jesus had told his disciples that eating his flesh and drinking his blood would make them live forever.so they must have taken him at his word' and the person I know replied ' you are right Christ did teach that whoever eats his flesh and drinks of his blood shall have Eternal Life. but as you would recall, he never said anything about chewing his bones, so you see if they had come at night and cannibalized him , the Romans would have found his bones in the tomb.' the clown laughed then quickly changed the subject.
My Bahai friend, who is a very righteous person in conduct, maintains that Christ was a spirit, as "a spirit does not have flesh and bones as I have" leaves out "blood", which is the only real marker of a physical being.
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« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2013, 09:52:06 PM »

"Death with dignity" is, to me, nothing more than a euphemism for control. "I'm taking control of my life away from God and into my own hands so I can die as I see fit." Because this desire for control focuses on "what I want", it's generally very selfish and in accordance with the mind of this fallen world, not with the mind of Christ. Who's to say, though, that one's life can't be a blessing to other people even in death (an unhastened death according solely to God's timing)?

But one problem with that is we have already taken control and many times extend life way past it's natural end.

If you find yourself in a nursing home, they will keep you going even if you are little more than a husk. They will feeding tube you and reel you back from the brink over and over . The cost of a nursing home around here is about $7,300 per month. You are a virtual money machine to them.
My mother in law screamed every three or four minutes the last full year of her life, spent in a nursing home... I think a little too much morphine administered just right would have been far preferable.

So until I see an xray that shows a feeding tube as a natural God-Given appendage...............
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« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2013, 10:00:56 PM »

I find it very odd and twisted in society how we could legally kill the unconsenting unborn who haven't even started their life, but we can't kill the consenting old person in pain who's already lived most their life.
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« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2013, 12:04:41 AM »

We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too.

There is nothing dignified about what you're advocating.
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« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2013, 12:13:36 AM »

Since I've never taken drugs or anything like that...

I told my wife:

"If I'm ever terminally ill and can't hardly take care of myself, bring me up in an airplane, rig me with skydiving gear, give me 10,000 hits of LSD, and chunk me out of the plane."

At least it would be fun.... for a little while anyway. Wink
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« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2013, 12:19:19 AM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool

Pretty sure he actually died physically and rose physically.
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« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2013, 04:07:40 AM »

Trampling down death to give us the right to die?

Not really relevant since the death he trampled down was not physical death, but hey, you still get marks for being clever.  Cool

I think He did trample down physical death as well as spiritual death. Won't we have physical bodies in heaven?


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« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2013, 04:10:08 AM »

I find it very odd and twisted in society how we could legally kill the unconsenting unborn who haven't even started their life, but we can't kill the consenting old person in pain who's already lived most their life.

Yes, that is twisted. But let's not kill any of them. Ease their suffering, provide comfort, work to heal, but don't kill.


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« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2013, 05:03:52 AM »

That is a very sad story. My mother was forced to endure waaay too much suffering at the end of her life, and wanted to have her life ended a month before she finally starved to death and her organs failed (Pancreatic Cancer). A year before her, my grandmother died of ALS, and would have probably accepted assisted suicide. Shortly after my mom passed, I joined this group: http://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/ We show mercy to suffering animals. We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too. The entire process would have to be as airtight and secure as possible so that it doesn't get abused. But things need to change.
I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

then there's that problem with eager heirs....
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« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2013, 07:22:58 AM »

All the scientific progress on prolonging life can easily cross into 'just because you can doesn't mean you should' territory. Life support is not something that should go on indefinitely. I feel living wills need to be more respected - legally binding, if necessary.
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« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2013, 07:26:10 AM »

I seem to recall a study in the Netherlands that 40% of the time the doctors didn't tell the patient when they were cashing in their chips.

It's true. One of the few reasons why I'm ashamed to be Dutch. They'll sometimes pull the plug even without permission.
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« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2013, 07:54:25 AM »

My grandmother developed Alzheimers and lived at home with us for seven years until she died in her own bed.  My parents cared for her with love and patience, and I think they were on to something awesome.  They neither prolonged or shortened her life, and have never voiced any regrets in the twenty-five years since she died. 


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« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2013, 08:08:33 AM »

We need to allow humans to die with dignity, too.

There is nothing dignified about what you're advocating.

Why not? Where is the dignity in leaving someone to suffer, maxed out on morphine, wearing a diaper, moaning out in pain for someone to have the mercy and good sense to end their suffering?
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« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2013, 08:31:09 AM »

One more thing...

What I am advocating is not what others here seem to think I am advocating. I am not advocating any assisted suicide where the person dying is not in control of the decision. I am aware of many of the dangers of euthanasia and the ways it can be abused. What I am advocating are laws that would allow people with grievous, terminal illnesses to be able to avoid the suffering of the ends of their lives and their inevitable deaths. For instance, take ALS, otherwise know as Lou Gerrick's disease. When you are diagnosed, you are not given a long time to live. The muscles in your mouth and throat simply stop working, which makes it impossible to drink or eat or swallow. You must receive food through a feeding tube. You are told that you will likely eventually choke or suffocate to death. These people shouldn't have to wait around until that horrible day when they begin to choke to death! They should have the choice to legally end their lives.

I see an end of life procedure going something like this... the patient and a friend or relative have to sign some papers saying that the patient wants to undergo the life-ending treatment, a doctor or counselor has to consult with the patient to make sure that they are in their right mind and have good reason to want to end their life, a committee of doctors must ascertain that the patient is indeed terminal, and all of this is sent to a lawyer who oversees the case and makes sure that everything goes according to plan. Something like that.
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