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Question: Is quitting this way acceptable for now?
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Author Topic: Overcoming my porn problem in parts?  (Read 6370 times) Average Rating: 0
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BalmungSama
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« on: March 30, 2013, 03:14:11 AM »

Okay, I'll spare the overly detailed talks abut my guilt, ambivalence, loathing, and various embarassing stories.
I have a porn problem, and I've had it for years. Which is saying something, since I'm only 21. I want to stop it, but time and time again I feel a very powerful urge which grows quickly.
I have one idea which may lighten the burden of quitting... but I don't know if it's right or not.
Basically, my idea is to do it in steps. The urge to watch porn comes when I'm aroused, and usually I can fight it. Sometimes I give in. ...That happens a lot. But what if I simply masturbated, without the porn? Keep in mind that the masturbation will be resisted as well. But if I can maybe break the association between porn and masturbating, my enemies decrease in number.

I understand that it's also a sin, and a very serious one. I just want to know if my strategy would be permitted. If not, I'll go back to trying to stop both at once. I just need to know.
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2013, 03:19:20 AM »

And yes, I realize how terrible it is that i'm asking this during Lent of all times.
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2013, 03:26:41 AM »

I'm in the same boat and it really sucks. God won't let us do anything fun.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2013, 03:35:52 AM »

I'm not complaining that He doesn't let me do these things. At least.... not now, I don't think.
Yes, it's fun, but it's nothing compared to real intimacy. God blessed me with a wonderful girlfriend, and while we're semi-long-distance (we go to schol in different cities, so we mostly see each other during breaks), just being around her satisfies me more than this garbage does. That's the love we're mean for. Not the disgusting things that I get off on...
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2013, 07:51:28 AM »

In my humble opinion, it would be better to "relieve pressure" immediately than to indulge in worse forms of perversity (pornography), but I don't think this is necessarily a good long-term approach. Kind of the lesser of two evils, I suppose. Alas, what you've already exposed yourself to in the way of pornography is fairly easily retrievable in your mind, but perhaps it could help you create distance from the pornography.
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2013, 11:15:54 AM »

Sounds to me like you need a Savior. Smiley
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ting ting ting


« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2013, 12:01:20 PM »

Here here. Its a difficult problem to deal with. I've quit smoking twice. I could do it a thousand times before I could go two weeks without masturbating. In all seriousness its not an easy thing to over come. I'm struggling too. The guilt and what not. 25 year old single male with access to the internet.

Lord, have mercy. Please. Tongue
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2013, 12:07:36 PM »

A few things I'd like to add:

1) I think Lent is the perfect time to approach this.

2) Are there any priests or spiritual fathers on the forum that could give us some advice? This is a really good one to help with. Even a good stern talking to and waging of the finger would be nice. I think we all feel a little isolated and embarrassed about this one.

3) I've been tackling the Philokalia the last few days to find what I can in there on the subject. I went into the back of the book and wrote out the subjects and page numbers.
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2013, 02:24:08 PM »

I've never been a drug addict, but I really think that quitting drugs is easier than quitting masturbation.
I had several attempts to do it before I realized that it is probably impossible for a human being, and so I took a one-week fast and during that week I tried to avoid looking at women as much as I could, and I prayed to God to purge me of this passion.

And so He did. During that week I had a couple of fits, where I had to jump under cold shower to suppress desire, but now I'm clean for more than three years, and I'm still single and I'm still very much attracted by the opposite sex.

The same way I quit smoking and drinking, or more proprely, God cleared me from these passions.

Also, if you hear somebody arguing that masturbation isn't a sin (some people will do this occasionally, because it is so hard to suppress it that they start to think it's natural), you don't believe them, since if it wasn't a sin you wouldn't feel remorse every time you do it.

The majority of Russian Christians believe that in Corinthians 6:9 (Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind), by effeminates Paul means people who masturbate. It's probably hard to draw such conclusion from the English translation, but the original Greek word 'malakia' (which means 'soft', 'easily compressed', elastic) in Russian theology is strongly associated with masturbation.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 02:36:10 PM by Nikolai Sergeev » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2013, 02:49:50 PM »

The Jesuit way:

Quote
PARTICULAR AND DAILY EXAMEN

It contains in it three times, and two to examine oneself.

The first time is in the morning, immediately on rising, when one ought to propose to guard himself with diligence against that particular sin or defect which he wants to correct and amend.

The second time is after dinner, when one is to ask of God our Lord what one wants, namely, grace to remember how many times he has fallen into that particular sin or defect, and to amend himself in the future. Then let him make the first Examen, asking account of his soul of that particular thing proposed, which he wants to correct and amend. Let him go over hour by hour, or period by period, commencing at the hour he rose, and continuing up to the hour and instant of the present examen, and let him make in the first line of the G==== as many dots as were the times he has fallen into that particular sin or defect. Then let him resolve anew to amend himself up to the second Examen which he will make.

The third time: After supper, the second Examen will be made, in the same way, hour by hour, commencing at the first Examen and continuing up to the present (second) one, and let him make in the second line of the same G==== as many dots as were the times he has fallen into that particular sin or defect.

FOUR ADDITIONS FOLLOW TO RID ONESELF SOONER OF THAT PARTICULAR SIN OR DEFECT

First Addition. The first Addition is that each time one falls into that particular sin or defect, let him put his hand on his breast, grieving for having fallen: which can be done even in the presence of many, without their perceiving what he is doing.

Second Addition. The second: As the first line of the G==== means the first Examen, and the second line the second Examen, let him look at night if there is amendment from the first line to the second, that is, from the first Examen to the second.

Third Addition. The third: To compare the second day with the first; that is, the two Examens of the present day with the other two Examens of the previous day, and see if he has amended himself from one day to the other.

Fourth Addition. The fourth Addition: To compare one week with another, and see if he has amended himself in the present week over the week past.

Note. It is to be noted that the first (large) G==== which follows means the Sunday: the second (smaller), the Monday: the third, the Tuesday, and so on.



(The Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola 22)
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2013, 03:45:38 PM »

The majority of Russian Christians believe that in Corinthians 6:9 (Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind), by effeminates Paul means people who masturbate. It's probably hard to draw such conclusion from the English translation, but the original Greek word 'malakia' (which means 'soft', 'easily compressed', elastic) in Russian theology is strongly associated with masturbation.

To elaborate on this: malaka in modern Greek means 'wanker'.
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2013, 03:48:24 PM »

To elaborate on this: malaka in modern Greek means 'wanker'.

The most popular word in the Greek language, generally replacing punctuation. In Greece it's used so much that in practice it basically means "dude", "guy", "buddy".
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2013, 03:49:54 PM »

"Ouwe rukker" - "old wanker" in Dutch - means "buddy" as well.
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2013, 04:53:02 PM »

What's the "abusers of themselves" mean then?  So is the word "effeminate" a wrong translation?  Because obviously it has a completely different meaning and association in the English language.
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2013, 04:53:30 PM »

I cannot put my two cents in since this is in Convert Issues. Though perhaps that's for the best  angel
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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2013, 04:54:54 PM »

So is the word "effeminate" a wrong translation?  Because obviously it has a completely different meaning and association in the English language.

Nah. Only since the medieval Byzantine canonists has the word malaka come to mean masturbator.
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2013, 05:26:20 PM »

What's the "abusers of themselves" mean then?  So is the word "effeminate" a wrong translation?  Because obviously it has a completely different meaning and association in the English language.

The root verb of malakos is malasso - "to soften (leather/skin), appease, relieve". In the Gospels malakos is used to describe the "soft clothes" of the entourage at Herod's court.  

There's a plant called malache, ~ "mellow" (Lat. malva), because it was used as a laxative. It's usually macerated and it's all gooey.

[i width=300]http://planteraremedicinale.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Malva-sylvestris-Nalba-.jpg[/i]

The Vulgate translates with molles ("soft ones"), while the Peshitta has mchable from the vb. ܚܒܠ - "to corrupt".

How about "metrosexuals"?

Some context:

Quote
"[The Nervii] allowed no wine or other luxury goods to be brought into their territory, because they judged that by these things their spirits were relaxed and their virtue lessened; they, on the other hand, were fierce folk of great virtue."

...nihil pati vini reliquarumque rerum ad luxuriam pertinentium inferri, quod his rebus relanguescere animos eorum et remitti virtutem existimarent; esse homines feros magnaeque virtutis.

(Iulius Caesar, De bello Gallico 2.15.4)

***

"[The Suebi] do not permit wine to be imported to themselves at all, because they think that by this thing men  grow soft and effeminate in putting up with labor."

Vinum omnino ad se importari non patiuntur, quod ea re ad laborem ferendum remollescere homines atque effeminari arbitrantur.

(Ibidem 4.2.6)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 06:00:07 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2013, 05:26:44 PM »

What my priest told me, I will with humbleness share:

- Try to gain selfcontrol and pick up your chotki (or just pray it on the fingers, the Jesusprayer).
- He also stressed the importance of getting occupied with other things when those attacks sets in
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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2013, 11:52:08 AM »

See what I've found on Yahoo Answers:

Quote
SO it means
Malakia" (abstract noun, plural "malakies") is used as

The literal act of masturbation
A slang word for semen specifically produced by that act.
It also can be used to describe nonsense.
An item considered worthless, a whatchamacallit (cadigan).
A mistake, or (ironically and degradingly) a time-consuming non-productive action. The parallel exists since these actions are a way to consume excessive energy and satisfy a desire, more or less like wanking.
It's stupid. When someone says, "you are doing malakies", it translates into "you are being stupid".
In many cases, when someone wants to refer to acts classifying as "Malakia" or to a person classifying as "Malakas" this can by implied by the up-and-down movement of a closed fist (clear allusion to the act of masturbation).

The use of "malakia" to mean "masturbation" traces back to Medieval Greek. It is used in this sense in the Life of St. Andrew the Fool and in the Life of St. Niphon, both of which date to the tenth century.[12]
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 11:54:58 AM by Nikolai Sergeev » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2013, 06:35:23 PM »

What my priest told me, I will with humbleness share:

- Try to gain selfcontrol and pick up your chotki (or just pray it on the fingers, the Jesusprayer).
- He also stressed the importance of getting occupied with other things when those attacks sets in

Very solid advice.  If you exhaust yourself in work, discipline, prayer every day, you will soon find you'll go weeks without even feeling an urge.  It's when you have free time that problems arise. 
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ting ting ting


« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2013, 08:12:43 PM »

Thanks for the advice so far. And the information on wankers (heeee... Grin).

It's encouraging and helpful.
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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2013, 08:14:24 PM »

If you are burning with this urge, its better to plan a marriage soon.
There are ways to block adult sites using 3rd party DNS resolvers but it takes will power if you want to stay away from the filth completely.
Also remember that these girls you are seeing are somebodies daughters.
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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2013, 11:22:52 PM »

And yes, I realize how terrible it is that i'm asking this during Lent of all times.
Actually, Lent is the perfect time to ask this Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2013, 11:25:13 PM »

There is no way that that method is okay.
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2013, 11:32:01 PM »

Something that might help you is to install this program on your computer, and have it linked to a trusted friend's email address so that only that friend has the password. You'll have to fidget with the initial setting a little bit, or else it'll basically just block half the Internet.
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2013, 02:20:35 AM »

How embarrassing would it be if your mother saw you, how much more is it that God and the angels see it, every time? Just stop.
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2013, 09:38:43 PM »

you won't be able to stop on your own, you need help, I strongly suggest you begin praying the rosary, 15 decades a day
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ting ting ting


« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2013, 10:12:20 PM »

Something that might help you is to install this program on your computer, and have it linked to a trusted friend's email address so that only that friend has the password. You'll have to fidget with the initial setting a little bit, or else it'll basically just block half the Internet.

I downloaded this. I tested it. It barks at me. Love it ^____^
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« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2013, 11:33:12 PM »

you won't be able to stop on your own, you need help, I strongly suggest you begin praying the rosary, 15 decades a day

I am a little picky here and instead I do advice the Jesusprayer and be occupied with other things. The Lord himself said that fasting and praying is the only way to overcome certain evil things (I know the passage these lines where taken from, but the point is): freetime makes you an easy target for "the ole bad one"
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« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2013, 12:29:44 AM »

you won't be able to stop on your own, you need help, I strongly suggest you begin praying the rosary, 15 decades a day
Please do not advocate Roman Catholic rituals on the Convert Issues board. Thank you.

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« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2013, 08:35:00 PM »

The majority of Russian Christians believe that in Corinthians 6:9 (Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind), by effeminates Paul means people who masturbate. It's probably hard to draw such conclusion from the English translation, but the original Greek word 'malakia' (which means 'soft', 'easily compressed', elastic) in Russian theology is strongly associated with masturbation.

To elaborate on this: malaka in modern Greek means 'wanker'.
im pretty sure malako or something like that means soft, but your right that word does mean wanker
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« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2013, 08:40:09 PM »

Another thing, that I have on the right to my computer, is a icon of Christ The Teacher. He stares right at me, at least for me, this has been very effective and indeed helpful.
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2013, 12:57:37 AM »

Okay, I'll spare the overly detailed talks abut my guilt, ambivalence, loathing, and various embarassing stories.
I have a porn problem, and I've had it for years. Which is saying something, since I'm only 21. I want to stop it, but time and time again I feel a very powerful urge which grows quickly.
I have one idea which may lighten the burden of quitting... but I don't know if it's right or not.
Basically, my idea is to do it in steps. The urge to watch porn comes when I'm aroused, and usually I can fight it. Sometimes I give in. ...That happens a lot. But what if I simply masturbated, without the porn? Keep in mind that the masturbation will be resisted as well. But if I can maybe break the association between porn and masturbating, my enemies decrease in number.

I understand that it's also a sin, and a very serious one. I just want to know if my strategy would be permitted. If not, I'll go back to trying to stop both at once. I just need to know.

You should discuss this with an experienced confessor.

That being said, my completely unprofessional and personal opinion is that it's better that you struggle to fight both. As you seem already to be aware, pornography and masturbation are really two degrees of the same impulse to sin, one which indulges the mind, and the other which indulges the body. Of these, pornography is closer in proximity to the original assault of temptation upon the mind than the act of masturbation is. Once one has reached the point of masturbation, even without pornography, his mind will have provided the thoughts necessary in order to arouse the body into sin, such that at the point of masturbation, abstaining from pornography will not contribute to breaking the underlying sickness which causes both the sin of watching pornography and the sin of masturbation.

If anything, you probably have the order reversed. In combatting sin, one needs to go in the reverse order that sin progresses, that is, by stopping sinful thoughts before they can become sinful acts, and attempting to cut off temptations when they first begin to assault the mind before they can lead us into sinful thoughts.
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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2013, 10:43:54 AM »

The following blog deals with the problem of addictions including porn:

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2013, 10:54:22 AM »

The following blog deals with the problem of addictions including porn:

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com

The owner of the blog also happens to be one of the more insightful posters on this forum. I don't think he posts during fasts, though.
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« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2013, 04:29:10 PM »

Wouldn't God rather we look at porn and masturbate than really go out and fornicate and commit adultery? I mean, what gives? If He didn't want us to do it then He shouldn't have gave us the urges to do it all the time.
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Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2013, 04:41:10 PM »

Wouldn't God rather we look at porn and masturbate than really go out and fornicate and commit adultery? I mean, what gives? If He didn't want us to do it then He shouldn't have gave us the urges to do it all the time.

We don't really have a hierarchy of sin in the Orthodox Church. No sin is greater than another... to a point... sort of... ok, I kinda lost my wording here. Sorry. Either way, no. Its best to do neither. I wish I could explain it better, but I'm sure someone will.

As far as urges, the fathers explain it well. We, being in a fallen state are subject to the natural urges that are made worse by the evil one and his demons and us being young men. God doesn't temp us (cause the urges), but allows us to be tempted. I take consolation in the fact that he doesn't allow us to fall into temptations that we can't handle.

That was my weak attempt at explaining and paraphrasing the fathers. The Philokalia is good for stuff like this. I've been reading it by subject from the index. Uber helpful.

"What gives," however, goes through my head all the time regardless. Tongue
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« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2013, 05:31:55 PM »

Wouldn't God rather we look at porn and masturbate than really go out and fornicate and commit adultery? I mean, what gives? If He didn't want us to do it then He shouldn't have gave us the urges to do it all the time.

Wouldn't God rather let us steal at night than let us take a gun and shoot a couple of people for couple of bucks? I don't like this whole idea of gradation.

I see a strange assumption, that watching porn and/or masturbate isn't commiting an adultery. It's like the whole "it's not sex if no penetration occurs" explanations. Whether you stole a dollar or a grand - you are a thief. The sin is about what you are doing to yourself, because no man is able to bring evil to anyone, except to himself. That you are doing it through hurting other people is just stealing a grand, rather than a dollar, but the point still stands - it's thievery and there's no reason to justify it. "For the Son of God became man" not so that we might become less of a problem, but "so that we might become God".
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 05:34:34 PM by Pan Michał » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2013, 05:58:33 PM »

What my priest told me, I will with humbleness share:

- Try to gain selfcontrol and pick up your chotki (or just pray it on the fingers, the Jesusprayer).
- He also stressed the importance of getting occupied with other things when those attacks sets in

Very solid advice.  If you exhaust yourself in work, discipline, prayer every day, you will soon find you'll go weeks without even feeling an urge.  It's when you have free time that problems arise. 

Precisely Father.  Idle hands are the devil's tools. 
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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2013, 06:11:23 PM »

Wouldn't God rather we look at porn and masturbate than really go out and fornicate and commit adultery? I mean, what gives? If He didn't want us to do it then He shouldn't have gave us the urges to do it all the time.

He wants us to get married and do it with our wives, if I may be so blunt.  That is why He gave us the urges, not so that we could drag out committing to another person until age 30.  In Ukraine, a woman who plans on marrying but is not married by age 21 is considered an old maid with something wrong with her.  I am not saying that this is a universal ideal (and what's good for the goose is what is good for the gander), but we biologically were meant to marry younger, yet we now have put up cultural obstructions to this.  Besides, we have very immature young adults as a whole.  As a seminary professor, I heard objections from some that "this seminarian is too young to be married."  Nonsense.  They were mature individuals (and we should have more mature young adults such as these young men) and were ripe for marriage and ordination.  Many years to them.     
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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2013, 06:58:21 PM »

Wouldn't God rather we look at porn and masturbate than really go out and fornicate and commit adultery? I mean, what gives? If He didn't want us to do it then He shouldn't have gave us the urges to do it all the time.
When you look at porn, you are contributing to the subjugation of the woman so no, God would never "rather we look at porn" because in the end the same principal still applies, you are using someone's daughter as a sex toy.
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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2013, 07:33:50 PM »

Okay, I'll spare the overly detailed talks abut my guilt, ambivalence, loathing, and various embarassing stories.
I have a porn problem, and I've had it for years. Which is saying something, since I'm only 21. I want to stop it, but time and time again I feel a very powerful urge which grows quickly.
I have one idea which may lighten the burden of quitting... but I don't know if it's right or not.
Basically, my idea is to do it in steps. The urge to watch porn comes when I'm aroused, and usually I can fight it. Sometimes I give in. ...That happens a lot. But what if I simply masturbated, without the porn? Keep in mind that the masturbation will be resisted as well. But if I can maybe break the association between porn and masturbating, my enemies decrease in number.

I understand that it's also a sin, and a very serious one. I just want to know if my strategy would be permitted. If not, I'll go back to trying to stop both at once. I just need to know.

GoTo an adult dating website and look for a legitimate partner, then it changes things. (Its no longer masturbation if you have a partner)
 On March 10 you was warned as a non-Orthodox Christian you should not share your "spiritual advice" in the Faith Issues or Convert Issues section. 20 days of warning - MK.
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« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2013, 07:42:54 PM »

Okay, I'll spare the overly detailed talks abut my guilt, ambivalence, loathing, and various embarassing stories.
I have a porn problem, and I've had it for years. Which is saying something, since I'm only 21. I want to stop it, but time and time again I feel a very powerful urge which grows quickly.
I have one idea which may lighten the burden of quitting... but I don't know if it's right or not.
Basically, my idea is to do it in steps. The urge to watch porn comes when I'm aroused, and usually I can fight it. Sometimes I give in. ...That happens a lot. But what if I simply masturbated, without the porn? Keep in mind that the masturbation will be resisted as well. But if I can maybe break the association between porn and masturbating, my enemies decrease in number.

I understand that it's also a sin, and a very serious one. I just want to know if my strategy would be permitted. If not, I'll go back to trying to stop both at once. I just need to know.

GoTo an adult dating website and look for a legitimate partner, then it changes things. (Its no longer masturbation if you have a partner)

By the canons it is double masturbation with twice the penance. 
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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2013, 07:45:04 PM »

Wouldn't God rather we look at porn and masturbate than really go out and fornicate and commit adultery? I mean, what gives? If He didn't want us to do it then He shouldn't have gave us the urges to do it all the time.

He wants us to get married and do it with our wives, if I may be so blunt.  That is why He gave us the urges, not so that we could drag out committing to another person until age 30.  In Ukraine, a woman who plans on marrying but is not married by age 21 is considered an old maid with something wrong with her.  I am not saying that this is a universal ideal (and what's good for the goose is what is good for the gander), but we biologically were meant to marry younger, yet we now have put up cultural obstructions to this.  Besides, we have very immature young adults as a whole.  As a seminary professor, I heard objections from some that "this seminarian is too young to be married."  Nonsense.  They were mature individuals (and we should have more mature young adults such as these young men) and were ripe for marriage and ordination.  Many years to them.     


^And before anyone twists my words, I mean intercourse with only wives (spouses) and not with pornography.  One is to "enjoy the wife of his youth." 
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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2013, 07:54:47 PM »

Okay, I'll spare the overly detailed talks abut my guilt, ambivalence, loathing, and various embarassing stories.
I have a porn problem, and I've had it for years. Which is saying something, since I'm only 21. I want to stop it, but time and time again I feel a very powerful urge which grows quickly.
I have one idea which may lighten the burden of quitting... but I don't know if it's right or not.
Basically, my idea is to do it in steps. The urge to watch porn comes when I'm aroused, and usually I can fight it. Sometimes I give in. ...That happens a lot. But what if I simply masturbated, without the porn? Keep in mind that the masturbation will be resisted as well. But if I can maybe break the association between porn and masturbating, my enemies decrease in number.

I understand that it's also a sin, and a very serious one. I just want to know if my strategy would be permitted. If not, I'll go back to trying to stop both at once. I just need to know.

GoTo an adult dating website and look for a legitimate partner, then it changes things. (Its no longer masturbation if you have a partner)

By the canons it is double masturbation with twice the penance. 

... laugh MagicWife?...
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