Author Topic: Hypothetical Situation  (Read 1034 times)

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Offline JamesR

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Hypothetical Situation
« on: March 30, 2013, 01:00:57 AM »
Let's say that the Pope met with an Orthodox Patriarch and officially recanted the RC doctrines of the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, the Filioque and all other doctrines which the Orthodox consider to be heresy, and wanted the Roman Catholic Church to officially rejoin the Orthodox Church.

What would happen?

Especially, how would this affect the whole North American jurisdiction situation? Technically, since America is in the west, and since the Pope would probably reclaim his first-among-equals title from Constantinople, wouldn't North America become the Pope's territory? I imagine that the more convertsky jurisdictions like the OCA and Antiochians would jump at the opportunity of falling under the Pope's jurisdiction, since it would give us more of that unity we've been craving for so long. On the other hand, I imagine that the more immigrant Churches--such as the Greeks, wouldn't like it one bit, and would possibly become schismatic. I also imagine that the current Ecumenical Patriarch wouldn't like it because he'd lose his Ecumenical status, and possibly lose his control over North America.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2013, 01:04:45 AM »
If you watch the DVD video about Christianity it talks about the rise of fall of empires ... technically, things could happen and the balance of power shifts around.


Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2013, 01:06:09 AM »
No one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2013, 01:06:50 AM »
I don't even... *holds hurting head*
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2013, 01:07:10 AM »
I feel bad saying it, but I wouldn't want to share my parish with a bunch of lapsed Roman Catholics who don't even know what's going on/the difference between us and would just sit around with their hands in their pockets and try to shorten the Liturgy to 45 minutes and replace the beauty of Pascha with "liturgical dancing."  :o  :'(
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2013, 01:10:54 AM »
I feel bad saying it, but I wouldn't want to share my parish with a bunch of lapsed Roman Catholics who don't even know what's going on/the difference between us and would just sit around with their hands in their pockets and try to shorten the Liturgy to 45 minutes and replace the beauty of Pascha with "liturgical dancing."  :o  :'(

You know, many Roman Catholics are devout, humble people of God. Not ignorant liturgy-ruiners.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 01:11:12 AM by lovesupreme »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2013, 05:11:50 AM »
Let's say that the Pope met with an Orthodox Patriarch and officially recanted the RC doctrines of the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, the Filioque and all other doctrines which the Orthodox consider to be heresy, and wanted the Roman Catholic Church to officially rejoin the Orthodox Church.

What would happen?

The Pope would cease to be the Pope, the RCC will elect a new one and the RCC will stay outside of Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 05:12:08 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline theo philosopher

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2013, 11:54:33 PM »
When Rome comes back into the fold, most likely the RCC churches will simply become "Latin Orthodox." Thus, the Roman Pope's jurisdiction would extend to all churches under the Latin liturgy. It would be no different than what we have now in America with multiple jurisdictions.

And of course you'd have some RCC churches reject the Pope and elect a new one, but I suspect when this happens many within the RCC will willingly come along. Only the most ardent traditionalists will remain hold outs.
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2013, 12:41:49 AM »
Let's say that the Pope met with an Orthodox Patriarch and officially recanted the RC doctrines of the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, the Filioque and all other doctrines which the Orthodox consider to be heresy, and wanted the Roman Catholic Church to officially rejoin the Orthodox Church.

What would happen?

Especially, how would this affect the whole North American jurisdiction situation? Technically, since America is in the west, and since the Pope would probably reclaim his first-among-equals title from Constantinople, wouldn't North America become the Pope's territory? I imagine that the more convertsky jurisdictions like the OCA and Antiochians would jump at the opportunity of falling under the Pope's jurisdiction, since it would give us more of that unity we've been craving for so long. On the other hand, I imagine that the more immigrant Churches--such as the Greeks, wouldn't like it one bit, and would possibly become schismatic. I also imagine that the current Ecumenical Patriarch wouldn't like it because he'd lose his Ecumenical status, and possibly lose his control over North America.

The same way any group that has been estranged from Orthodoxy comes back in the fold. A commission will be established to determine the best way to bring them back into communion. Just because the Pope recants does not mean the whole RC would recant - part of that not recognizing the whole Papal Infallibility issue. So, if the Pope recanted your list, and asked to be received back into The Church, it is hard to say without knowing what kind of support he would receive from the rest of the Latin communion. There is no one on Earth that can tell you what might happen.
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Offline Gamliel

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2013, 02:06:30 AM »
The EP would be able to have lunch with the Pope.  ;)

Offline Nicene

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2013, 03:00:43 AM »
Let's say that the Pope met with an Orthodox Patriarch and officially recanted the RC doctrines of the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, the Filioque and all other doctrines which the Orthodox consider to be heresy, and wanted the Roman Catholic Church to officially rejoin the Orthodox Church.

What would happen?

The Pope would cease to be the Pope, the RCC will elect a new one and the RCC will stay outside of Orthodoxy.
Unless he infallibly declares it. Then the RCC can't claim the pope can always speak infalliably. Of course this won;'t happen though.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2013, 10:14:13 PM »
Let's say that the Pope met with an Orthodox Patriarch and officially recanted the RC doctrines of the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, the Filioque and all other doctrines which the Orthodox consider to be heresy, and wanted the Roman Catholic Church to officially rejoin the Orthodox Church.

What would happen?

Especially, how would this affect the whole North American jurisdiction situation? Technically, since America is in the west, and since the Pope would probably reclaim his first-among-equals title from Constantinople, wouldn't North America become the Pope's territory?

Some time ago (maybe a year ago) I posed a related question to a bunch of highly knowledgeable Eastern Christians: namely, what would happen with WRO in the event of Catholic-Orthodox reunion?

I wasn't expecting there to be much consensus in the answers, but in fact there was. The consensus (FWIW) was that, if there was a reunion, Western Rite Orthodox would become part of the Latin Catholic Church.

(I'm thinking that's similar to what theo philosopher said,
When Rome comes back into the fold, most likely the RCC churches will simply become "Latin Orthodox." Thus, the Roman Pope's jurisdiction would extend to all churches under the Latin liturgy. It would be no different than what we have now in America with multiple jurisdictions.
although I could be mistaken.)
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Offline montalban

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2013, 10:46:53 PM »
Let's say that the Pope met with an Orthodox Patriarch and officially recanted the RC doctrines of the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, the Filioque and all other doctrines which the Orthodox consider to be heresy, and wanted the Roman Catholic Church to officially rejoin the Orthodox Church.

What would happen?

Especially, how would this affect the whole North American jurisdiction situation? Technically, since America is in the west, and since the Pope would probably reclaim his first-among-equals title from Constantinople, wouldn't North America become the Pope's territory?

Some time ago (maybe a year ago) I posed a related question to a bunch of highly knowledgeable Eastern Christians: namely, what would happen with WRO in the event of Catholic-Orthodox reunion?

I wasn't expecting there to be much consensus in the answers, but in fact there was. The consensus (FWIW) was that, if there was a reunion, Western Rite Orthodox would become part of the Latin Catholic Church.

(I'm thinking that's similar to what theo philosopher said,
When Rome comes back into the fold, most likely the RCC churches will simply become "Latin Orthodox." Thus, the Roman Pope's jurisdiction would extend to all churches under the Latin liturgy. It would be no different than what we have now in America with multiple jurisdictions.
although I could be mistaken.)

Does that mean Eastern Rite Catholics would become Antiochian Orthodox (as per the Maronites) or such?
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Offline montalban

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2013, 10:47:22 PM »
In the end, jurisdiction would probably be the smallest issue
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2013, 07:31:41 AM »
Let's say that the Pope met with an Orthodox Patriarch and officially recanted the RC doctrines of the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, the Filioque and all other doctrines which the Orthodox consider to be heresy, and wanted the Roman Catholic Church to officially rejoin the Orthodox Church.

What would happen?

Especially, how would this affect the whole North American jurisdiction situation? Technically, since America is in the west, and since the Pope would probably reclaim his first-among-equals title from Constantinople, wouldn't North America become the Pope's territory?

Some time ago (maybe a year ago) I posed a related question to a bunch of highly knowledgeable Eastern Christians: namely, what would happen with WRO in the event of Catholic-Orthodox reunion?

I wasn't expecting there to be much consensus in the answers, but in fact there was. The consensus (FWIW) was that, if there was a reunion, Western Rite Orthodox would become part of the Latin Catholic Church.

(I'm thinking that's similar to what theo philosopher said,
When Rome comes back into the fold, most likely the RCC churches will simply become "Latin Orthodox." Thus, the Roman Pope's jurisdiction would extend to all churches under the Latin liturgy. It would be no different than what we have now in America with multiple jurisdictions.
although I could be mistaken.)

Does that mean Eastern Rite Catholics would become Antiochian Orthodox (as per the Maronites) or such?

I don't know about the Maronites, since they have no corresponding Orthodox group, but I believe (based on my memory which I think is accurate) that it was generally agreed, in the afore-mentioned conversation, that e.g. that the Melkites would merge into the Antiochian Orthodox Church, Romanian Catholics into the Romanian Orthodox Church, etc.
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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2013, 08:03:59 AM »
Let's say that the Pope met with an Orthodox Patriarch and officially recanted the RC doctrines of the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, the Filioque and all other doctrines which the Orthodox consider to be heresy, and wanted the Roman Catholic Church to officially rejoin the Orthodox Church.

What would happen?

Especially, how would this affect the whole North American jurisdiction situation? Technically, since America is in the west, and since the Pope would probably reclaim his first-among-equals title from Constantinople, wouldn't North America become the Pope's territory?

Some time ago (maybe a year ago) I posed a related question to a bunch of highly knowledgeable Eastern Christians: namely, what would happen with WRO in the event of Catholic-Orthodox reunion?

I wasn't expecting there to be much consensus in the answers, but in fact there was. The consensus (FWIW) was that, if there was a reunion, Western Rite Orthodox would become part of the Latin Catholic Church.

(I'm thinking that's similar to what theo philosopher said,
When Rome comes back into the fold, most likely the RCC churches will simply become "Latin Orthodox." Thus, the Roman Pope's jurisdiction would extend to all churches under the Latin liturgy. It would be no different than what we have now in America with multiple jurisdictions.
although I could be mistaken.)

Does that mean Eastern Rite Catholics would become Antiochian Orthodox (as per the Maronites) or such?

I don't know about the Maronites, since they have no corresponding Orthodox group, but I believe (based on my memory which I think is accurate) that it was generally agreed, in the afore-mentioned conversation, that e.g. that the Melkites would merge into the Antiochian Orthodox Church, Romanian Catholics into the Romanian Orthodox Church, etc.

I presume by Romanian Catholics, you mean the Greek Catholics? There's a not insignificant number of Latin Rite Catholics also in certain areas - I don't imagine they'd go a bundle on being forced into the Romanian Orthodox Church (though I agree that they actually should, just in some sort of Latin Rite vicariate). Oddly enough, the Greek Catholics on the Moldovan side might actually prove the more difficult - the Latin rite Catholics tend to still identify as Romanians while the Greek Catholics as often as not call themselves Ukrainian.

James
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 08:04:33 AM by jmbejdl »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2013, 12:08:51 PM »
Let's say that the Pope met with an Orthodox Patriarch and officially recanted the RC doctrines of the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, the Filioque and all other doctrines which the Orthodox consider to be heresy, and wanted the Roman Catholic Church to officially rejoin the Orthodox Church.

What would happen?

Especially, how would this affect the whole North American jurisdiction situation? Technically, since America is in the west, and since the Pope would probably reclaim his first-among-equals title from Constantinople, wouldn't North America become the Pope's territory?

Some time ago (maybe a year ago) I posed a related question to a bunch of highly knowledgeable Eastern Christians: namely, what would happen with WRO in the event of Catholic-Orthodox reunion?

I wasn't expecting there to be much consensus in the answers, but in fact there was. The consensus (FWIW) was that, if there was a reunion, Western Rite Orthodox would become part of the Latin Catholic Church.

(I'm thinking that's similar to what theo philosopher said,
When Rome comes back into the fold, most likely the RCC churches will simply become "Latin Orthodox." Thus, the Roman Pope's jurisdiction would extend to all churches under the Latin liturgy. It would be no different than what we have now in America with multiple jurisdictions.
although I could be mistaken.)

Does that mean Eastern Rite Catholics would become Antiochian Orthodox (as per the Maronites) or such?

I don't know about the Maronites, since they have no corresponding Orthodox group, but I believe (based on my memory which I think is accurate) that it was generally agreed, in the afore-mentioned conversation, that e.g. that the Melkites would merge into the Antiochian Orthodox Church, Romanian Catholics into the Romanian Orthodox Church, etc.

I presume by Romanian Catholics, you mean the Greek Catholics? There's a not insignificant number of Latin Rite Catholics also in certain areas - I don't imagine they'd go a bundle on being forced into the Romanian Orthodox Church

You're right, I should have said Romanian Greek-Catholics.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2013, 02:05:30 PM »
I wasn't expecting there to be much consensus in the answers, but in fact there was. The consensus (FWIW) was that, if there was a reunion, Western Rite Orthodox would become part of the Latin Catholic Church.

IMO, they should be a part of the Church they are on canonical territory of.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2013, 02:10:33 PM »
I wasn't expecting there to be much consensus in the answers, but in fact there was. The consensus (FWIW) was that, if there was a reunion, Western Rite Orthodox would become part of the Latin Catholic Church.

IMO, they should be a part of the Church they are on canonical territory of.

Which Church are they on canonical territory of? (OCA? GOAA? Antiochian? ROCOR?)
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Offline mike

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2013, 03:35:18 PM »
I wasn't expecting there to be much consensus in the answers, but in fact there was. The consensus (FWIW) was that, if there was a reunion, Western Rite Orthodox would become part of the Latin Catholic Church.

IMO, they should be a part of the Church they are on canonical territory of.

Which Church are they on canonical territory of? (OCA? GOAA? Antiochian? ROCOR?)

I consider OCA as the Church of America. I hope that until the reunification with the RCC there will be jurisdictional unity among the EOs and there will be only OCA (or its successor) in America.

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2013, 03:42:47 PM »
When Rome comes back into the fold, most likely the RCC churches will simply become "Latin Orthodox." Thus, the Roman Pope's jurisdiction would extend to all churches under the Latin liturgy. It would be no different than what we have now in America with multiple jurisdictions.

And of course you'd have some RCC churches reject the Pope and elect a new one, but I suspect when this happens many within the RCC will willingly come along. Only the most ardent traditionalists will remain hold outs.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2013, 03:51:54 PM »
When Rome comes back into the fold, most likely the RCC churches will simply become "Latin Orthodox." Thus, the Roman Pope's jurisdiction would extend to all churches under the Latin liturgy. It would be no different than what we have now in America with multiple jurisdictions.

And of course you'd have some RCC churches reject the Pope and elect a new one, but I suspect when this happens many within the RCC will willingly come along. Only the most ardent traditionalists will remain hold outs.
Like me. :)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2013, 04:20:19 PM »
Let's say that the Pope met with an Orthodox Patriarch and officially recanted the RC doctrines of the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, the Filioque and all other doctrines which the Orthodox consider to be heresy, and wanted the Roman Catholic Church to officially rejoin the Orthodox Church.

What would happen?

Especially, how would this affect the whole North American jurisdiction situation? Technically, since America is in the west, and since the Pope would probably reclaim his first-among-equals title from Constantinople, wouldn't North America become the Pope's territory? I imagine that the more convertsky jurisdictions like the OCA and Antiochians would jump at the opportunity of falling under the Pope's jurisdiction, since it would give us more of that unity we've been craving for so long. On the other hand, I imagine that the more immigrant Churches--such as the Greeks, wouldn't like it one bit, and would possibly become schismatic. I also imagine that the current Ecumenical Patriarch wouldn't like it because he'd lose his Ecumenical status, and possibly lose his control over North America.
The OCA wouldn't come under Rome's jurisdiction any more than the Czech Lands and Slovakia, Poland, Albania, the Church of Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, or New Rome-all of which had been under Old Rome-would.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Hypothetical Situation
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2013, 04:59:16 PM »
Let's say that the Pope met with an Orthodox Patriarch and officially recanted the RC doctrines of the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, the Filioque and all other doctrines which the Orthodox consider to be heresy, and wanted the Roman Catholic Church to officially rejoin the Orthodox Church.

What would happen?

Especially, how would this affect the whole North American jurisdiction situation? Technically, since America is in the west, and since the Pope would probably reclaim his first-among-equals title from Constantinople, wouldn't North America become the Pope's territory? I imagine that the more convertsky jurisdictions like the OCA and Antiochians would jump at the opportunity of falling under the Pope's jurisdiction, since it would give us more of that unity we've been craving for so long. On the other hand, I imagine that the more immigrant Churches--such as the Greeks, wouldn't like it one bit, and would possibly become schismatic. I also imagine that the current Ecumenical Patriarch wouldn't like it because he'd lose his Ecumenical status, and possibly lose his control over North America.
The OCA wouldn't come under Rome's jurisdiction any more than the Czech Lands and Slovakia, Poland, Albania, the Church of Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, or New Rome-all of which had been under Old Rome-would.

I agree. (And thank you btw for reminding me of the original question. :))

With the (possible) exception of the Western Rite Orthodox, I see no reason to think that any Orthodox would be merged into the Latin Church.
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