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Author Topic: Metropolitan Hilarion on Pope Francis and Eastern Catholics  (Read 2189 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 28, 2013, 09:33:48 PM »

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Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev) of Volokolamsk of the Russian Orthodox Church expressed the hope that Pope Francis will continue the policy of rapprochement with the Orthodox Church and will not support, as he calls it, the expansion of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, the site of Pravoslavie i Mir reports.

... (abridged as per forum policy)
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« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2013, 09:35:40 PM »

Does "support the union" (paragraph 2) mean the same as "support ... the expansion of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics" (paragraph 1, emphasis added)? Or am I reading too much into it?
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« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2013, 09:44:51 PM »

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Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev) of Volokolamsk of the Russian Orthodox Church expressed the hope that Pope Francis will continue the policy of rapprochement with the Orthodox Church and will not support, as he calls it, the expansion of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, the site of Pravoslavie i Mir reports.

... (abridged as per forum policy)

The Greek Catholic church will always be a bump in the road to any union, and that's if it does happen at all.
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« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2013, 11:07:31 PM »

Google Translate actually does a better job translating a few of the terms in the Ukrainian piece:

Google Translate
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2013, 07:33:00 AM »

Google Translate actually does a better job translating a few of the terms in the Ukrainian piece:

Interesting ... I guess I was taking for granted that it was a good translation.

I notice in paragraph 2, Google has "support Uniatism" (not "support the union" which puts a slightly different spin on it).
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« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2013, 08:55:42 AM »

Google Translate actually does a better job translating a few of the terms in the Ukrainian piece:

Interesting ... I guess I was taking for granted that it was a good translation.

I notice in paragraph 2, Google has "support Uniatism" (not "support the union" which puts a slightly different spin on it).

True, but auto-translations always provide a good chuckle, the line about "Dad" was a good one.
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2013, 09:13:01 AM »

Google Translate actually does a better job translating a few of the terms in the Ukrainian piece:

Interesting ... I guess I was taking for granted that it was a good translation.

I notice in paragraph 2, Google has "support Uniatism" (not "support the union" which puts a slightly different spin on it).

True, but auto-translations always provide a good chuckle, the line about "Dad" was a good one.

The funniest online translations are Church Slavonic to English.  laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2013, 09:18:01 AM »

The funniest online translations are Church Slavonic to English.  laugh laugh laugh

Such a thing exists?
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2013, 09:23:27 AM »

The funniest online translations are Church Slavonic to English.  laugh laugh laugh

Such a thing exists?

Copy something written in Slavonic into an online translator and see what happens.  laugh
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2013, 09:54:34 AM »

Do you have a link to a virtual keyboard or transcript module to Church Slavonic alphabet? Something that will be recognized by other programs... To get something like that: http://cu.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2013, 08:32:47 PM »

Didn't Metropolitan Hilarion also say prior to the Papal conclave that a "traditionalist" Catholic would be best for Catholic-Orthodox relations?  Obviously, he has not gotten that.  As for the rest, with POPEFrancis' background, he is likely to support Eastern Catholics quite strongly.  

modified by username! section-moderator.  Please use titles when referring to a faith's clerics.-=
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2013, 08:56:56 PM »

Do you have a link to a virtual keyboard or transcript module to Church Slavonic alphabet? Something that will be recognized by other programs... To get something like that: http://cu.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0

I followed your link and copy-pasted some stuff into Google Translate. It thought it was either Ukrainian of Bulgarian and hardly translated anything. I tried to translate the whole page and could only recognize the words PRETTY and VIKIPЄDЇѬ

Edit: I saw something about Sts Cyril and Methodius
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2013, 10:16:11 PM »

Didn't Metropolitan Hilarion also say prior to the Papal conclave that a "traditionalist" Catholic would be best for Catholic-Orthodox relations?  Obviously, he has not gotten that.  As for the rest, with Francis' background, he is likely to support Eastern Catholics quite strongly. 

The Eastern Catholic church will always be a 'fly in the ointment' to any thoughts of union.  Until then we can only pray.
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« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2013, 09:51:31 AM »

The Greek Catholic church will always be a bump in the road to any union

The Eastern Catholic church will always be a 'fly in the ointment' to any thoughts of union. 

I see your thinking has evolved a lot in these last few days.

 Wink
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« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2013, 03:03:32 PM »

Didn't Metropolitan Hilarion also say prior to the Papal conclave that a "traditionalist" Catholic would be best for Catholic-Orthodox relations?  Obviously, he has not gotten that.  As for the rest, with Francis' background, he is likely to support Eastern Catholics quite strongly. 

The Eastern Catholic church will always be a 'fly in the ointment' to any thoughts of union.  Until then we can only pray.
Personally I think that the Eastern Orthodox should be more concerned about the ongoing iconoclastic crisis in the Roman Church, and the fact that that iconoclastic spirit rather than abating may actually intensify in the years to come (see the Good Friday homily of the Preacher of the Papal Household).
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« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2013, 03:48:26 PM »

Didn't Metropolitan Hilarion also say prior to the Papal conclave that a "traditionalist" Catholic would be best for Catholic-Orthodox relations?  Obviously, he has not gotten that.  As for the rest, with Francis' background, he is likely to support Eastern Catholics quite strongly. 

The Eastern Catholic church will always be a 'fly in the ointment' to any thoughts of union.  Until then we can only pray.
Personally I think that the Eastern Orthodox should be more concerned about the ongoing iconoclastic crisis in the Roman Church, and the fact that that iconoclastic spirit rather than abating may actually intensify in the years to come (see the Good Friday homily of the Preacher of the Papal Household).
^ This
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« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2013, 03:56:53 PM »

Didn't Metropolitan Hilarion also say prior to the Papal conclave that a "traditionalist" Catholic would be best for Catholic-Orthodox relations?  Obviously, he has not gotten that.  As for the rest, with Francis' background, he is likely to support Eastern Catholics quite strongly. 

The Eastern Catholic church Proud, sinful, fallen human beings will always be a 'fly in the ointment' to any thoughts of union.  Until then we can only pray.

Fixed it.
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« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2013, 05:49:24 PM »

The Greek Catholic church will always be a bump in the road to any union

The Eastern Catholic church will always be a 'fly in the ointment' to any thoughts of union. 

I see your thinking has evolved a lot in these last few days.

 Wink

"in the past two days" pray tell.
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« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2013, 06:29:32 PM »

Personally I think that the Eastern Orthodox should be more concerned about the ongoing iconoclastic crisis in the Roman Church, and the fact that that iconoclastic spirit rather than abating may actually intensify in the years to come (see the Good Friday homily of the Preacher of the Papal Household).

I agree with you completely.  I am concerned about the exact same thing.  Deeply concerned.  
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« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2013, 07:16:21 PM »

Personally I think that the Eastern Orthodox should be more concerned about the ongoing iconoclastic crisis in the Roman Church, and the fact that that iconoclastic spirit rather than abating may actually intensify in the years to come (see the Good Friday homily of the Preacher of the Papal Household).
What is the general perception of Eastern Catholics on the Holy Father, if I may ask?  Conventional wisdom is that all of you love him, because of his background.  However, your point above causes me to think that it might not be that simple.  All of the Eastern Catholics I know are deeply sensitive about their traditions, and make a strong effort to maintain them, rightly so in my opinion.  The tendency towards iconoclasm that Pope Francis seems to exhibit would seem destined to rub Eastern Christians the wrong way at some point.  That being said, I suspect his desire to change tradition will not affect Eastern Christians that much, rather it will be focused on the Latin Church.  
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« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2013, 09:16:28 PM »

I think he is great and applaud his humility and laying aside some of the pomp that has become attached to the papacy but is not in anyway intrinsic to it.  The fact that he was elected to clean house in the Curia also endears him to me.
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« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2013, 12:13:31 AM »

I am concerned by his disregard for liturgical tradition (e.g., washing a Muslim woman's feet on Holy Thursday), and his Low Church attitude towards the liturgy in general. I do not know if anyone else has noticed, but Pope Francis seems to be utterly uninterested in the liturgy, and even checks his watch periodically during divine services as if he is bored with the worship of God. I pray for him and for the Roman Church.
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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2013, 12:22:10 AM »

I think he is great and applaud his humility and laying aside some of the pomp that has become attached to the papacy but is not in anyway intrinsic to it.  The fact that he was elected to clean house in the Curia also endears him to me.
As far as giving up some of the pomp associated with the papacy is concerned, I am okay with that, but to be frank I would rather see Pope Francis wear the mozzetta, which is really quite harmless, and get rid of the Congregation for Eastern Churches, which is a substantive problem.  After all, the Eastern Catholic Churches are self-governing communities and they do not need interference from the Roman bureaucracy when managing their own distinctive interests.
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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2013, 09:28:22 AM »

I think he is great and applaud his humility and laying aside some of the pomp that has become attached to the papacy but is not in anyway intrinsic to it.  The fact that he was elected to clean house in the Curia also endears him to me.
As far as giving up some of the pomp associated with the papacy is concerned, I am okay with that, but to be frank I would rather see Pope Francis wear the mozzetta, which is really quite harmless, and get rid of the Congregation for Eastern Churches, which is a substantive problem.  After all, the Eastern Catholic Churches are self-governing communities and they do not need interference from the Roman bureaucracy when managing their own distinctive interests.

Time shall tell. One thing which has impressed me is the new Pope' s view of himself as first being the Bishop of Rome.Symbols like not being elevated on a dias or raised chair to meet with Cardinals and Bishops is interesting to those of us in the east.
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« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2013, 10:51:47 AM »

I am concerned by his disregard for liturgical tradition (e.g., washing a Muslim woman's feet on Holy Thursday), and his Low Church attitude towards the liturgy in general. I do not know if anyone else has noticed, but Pope Francis seems to be utterly uninterested in the liturgy, and even checks his watch periodically during divine services as if he is bored with the worship of God. I pray for him and for the Roman Church.

He may be trying to demonstrate the spirit of the rite. However, I wonder if he had to disregard the tradition of washing the feet the feet of twelve priests as a reenactment of John 13.

"12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you."

Why did he not do the prescribed rite and then go to the juvenile detention facility to wash the feet of the adolescents there?
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2013, 12:03:28 PM »

I am concerned by his disregard for liturgical tradition (e.g., washing a Muslim woman's feet on Holy Thursday), and his Low Church attitude towards the liturgy in general. I do not know if anyone else has noticed, but Pope Francis seems to be utterly uninterested in the liturgy, and even checks his watch periodically during divine services as if he is bored with the worship of God. I pray for him and for the Roman Church.

He may be trying to demonstrate the spirit of the rite. However, I wonder if he had to disregard the tradition of washing the feet the feet of twelve priests as a reenactment of John 13.

"12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you."

Why did he not do the prescribed rite and then go to the juvenile detention facility to wash the feet of the adolescents there?

When I first heard that Pope Francis washed the feet of 2 women, one of whom was Muslim, I thought..."Oh.  No.  Here comes liberal 'inclusiveness' and all manner of other garbage along with it."  Then I read this article http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/how-should-we-understand-pope-francis-washing-womens-feet/ .  I have have since revised my view somewhat and am adopting the good ol' "wait and see" attitude for now.  It's worth taking the time to read it to get a somewhat different perspective about it.  (Bear in mind that the article is from a Catholic, not Orthodox, pov, and should be read not in a spirit of judgmentalism and "Catholics are wrong" but in order to get a hopefully wider or better understanding of the actions of a Catholic Pope, in a Catholic context, from a Catholic writer.)
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2013, 06:27:24 PM »

When I first heard that Pope Francis washed the feet of 2 women, one of whom was Muslim, I thought..."Oh.  No.  Here comes liberal 'inclusiveness' and all manner of other garbage along with it."  Then I read this article http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/how-should-we-understand-pope-francis-washing-womens-feet/ .  I have have since revised my view somewhat and am adopting the good ol' "wait and see" attitude for now.  It's worth taking the time to read it to get a somewhat different perspective about it.  (Bear in mind that the article is from a Catholic, not Orthodox, pov, and should be read not in a spirit of judgmentalism and "Catholics are wrong" but in order to get a hopefully wider or better understanding of the actions of a Catholic Pope, in a Catholic context, from a Catholic writer.)
I read that NCRegister article too, and found it completely unconvincing. The Pedilavium rite within the context of the Great and Holy Thursday liturgy is not commemorating "service in general," but the institution of priestly service by Christ in commissioning His apostles to serve the people of God. Quite frankly the Roman Church does not need more liturgical innovation, and it most certainly does not need to be even more ritually Low Church than it is already.
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« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2013, 06:54:32 PM »

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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2013, 09:21:06 PM »


I read that NCRegister article too, and found it completely unconvincing. The Pedilavium rite within the context of the Great and Holy Thursday liturgy is not commemorating "service in general," but the institution of priestly service by Christ in commissioning His apostles to serve the people of God. Quite frankly the Roman Church does not need more liturgical innovation, and it most certainly does not need to be even more ritually Low Church than it is already.
Agreed completely. 
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« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2013, 10:44:38 PM »

When I first heard that Pope Francis washed the feet of 2 women, one of whom was Muslim, I thought..."Oh.  No.  Here comes liberal 'inclusiveness' and all manner of other garbage along with it."  Then I read this article http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/how-should-we-understand-pope-francis-washing-womens-feet/ .  I have have since revised my view somewhat and am adopting the good ol' "wait and see" attitude for now.  It's worth taking the time to read it to get a somewhat different perspective about it.  (Bear in mind that the article is from a Catholic, not Orthodox, pov, and should be read not in a spirit of judgmentalism and "Catholics are wrong" but in order to get a hopefully wider or better understanding of the actions of a Catholic Pope, in a Catholic context, from a Catholic writer.)
I read that NCRegister article too, and found it completely unconvincing. The Pedilavium rite within the context of the Great and Holy Thursday liturgy is not commemorating "service in general," but the institution of priestly service by Christ in commissioning His apostles to serve the people of God. Quite frankly the Roman Church does not need more liturgical innovation, and it most certainly does not need to be even more ritually Low Church than it is already.
We are actually agreeing on stuff. Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2013, 11:30:44 PM »

When I first heard that Pope Francis washed the feet of 2 women, one of whom was Muslim, I thought..."Oh.  No.  Here comes liberal 'inclusiveness' and all manner of other garbage along with it."  Then I read this article http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/how-should-we-understand-pope-francis-washing-womens-feet/ .  I have have since revised my view somewhat and am adopting the good ol' "wait and see" attitude for now.  It's worth taking the time to read it to get a somewhat different perspective about it.  (Bear in mind that the article is from a Catholic, not Orthodox, pov, and should be read not in a spirit of judgmentalism and "Catholics are wrong" but in order to get a hopefully wider or better understanding of the actions of a Catholic Pope, in a Catholic context, from a Catholic writer.)
I read that NCRegister article too, and found it completely unconvincing. The Pedilavium rite within the context of the Great and Holy Thursday liturgy is not commemorating "service in general," but the institution of priestly service by Christ in commissioning His apostles to serve the people of God. Quite frankly the Roman Church does not need more liturgical innovation, and it most certainly does not need to be even more ritually Low Church than it is already.
We are actually agreeing on stuff. Smiley

For what it is worth I too agree that future of my Church, at least liturgically is not looking good.  We will all have to wait and see, but quite frankly the humility "show" is already starting to seem just that.

 When I first heard that the Pope was going to the prison it was also suggested that there would be a news black out of the event.  That encouraged me, but alas it was on live TV.  It seems that cameras are always present, whether washing non-Christian feet, or kissing the handicapped.  If every act of "humility" is done in front of a camera, is it really humility or just the opposite?

A "job" has responsibilities.  The job of Pope does as well, and I just don't think that throwing away traditions and established "rules" and "norms" encourages anything other than disobedience by others in the Church.  OK, I wouldn't wear red shoes either, but what exactly are we to learn from washing a mohammedin's feet? That Christians are indeed the slaves of the Muslim as THEY believe, or that we are just naïve saps, kissing feet while they martyr our brothers and sisters and burn churches.  I don't understand and I wish the Pope would clarify.

Feel good Jesuit relativism is NOT what my Church needs right now, but that is only my humble opinion as a simple layman. Frankly it is far too early to label the Pope quite yet. He could just be acting on instinct at this point with the overwhelming "newness" of his position...........at least I hope so.  Jesuits for the most part went over to the dark side some time ago I'm afraid.  Just look at Jesuit universities.

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« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2013, 02:05:20 AM »

Quote
(Bear in mind that the article is from a Catholic, not Orthodox, pov, and should be read not in a spirit of judgmentalism and "Catholics are wrong" but in order to get a hopefully wider or better understanding of the actions of a Catholic Pope, in a Catholic context, from a Catholic writer.)

Someone once told me that is what the Heresy of Ecumenism is - you know this heresy thats pervasive in nearly all the churches/denominations today.

I'm OK, you're OK, don't judge me, i won't judge you. Different strokes for Different Folks.

Back to the 70's, ya know?
https://sarumuse.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/back-to-the-1970s/

Yes, I believe that every single priest and bishop is potentially committing a sin to wash moslems women's feet within or after a Mass of Maundy Thursday.

I believe it is deeply wrong with all my heart and soul and would yell it from the rooftops!

GENDER and FAITH IS REAL !  God made us this way and no modernist influence prelate will change the truth which prevails forever.

Though I also recognize that Pope Francis is going along with the mainstream prevailing loosy goosy attitude in his church to act in such a manner and has many other virtues and positive lessons to teach us. Yet this recent example suggests that the "Spirit of Vatican II" has at last come home to roost and will take over the city of Rome in ways no one ever thought possible. What you see at your average parish church in the US or Argentina will now be seen in Rome too. Rome will no longer be held to a higher standard, it will feature the same abuses and novelties that many know quite well from USA masses.


Photo: Fr. Bill Holtzinger at parish of St. Patrick of the Forest Catholic Church, Cave Junction, Oregon, USA.

I hope Pope Francis doesn't decide to adopt a poodle.
If he did, I should hope Met. Hilarion would have an opportunity to pet it ....
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 02:21:53 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2013, 05:04:57 AM »

Maybe I've just been reading the thread(s) distractedly (distractedly?), but I didn't realize till now that one of the women was Muslim.
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« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2013, 05:05:47 AM »

That would explain the 4 horsemen I saw out riding yesterday. (At the time I just thought they were trying to get some exercise.)

When I first heard that Pope Francis washed the feet of 2 women, one of whom was Muslim, I thought..."Oh.  No.  Here comes liberal 'inclusiveness' and all manner of other garbage along with it."  Then I read this article http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/how-should-we-understand-pope-francis-washing-womens-feet/ .  I have have since revised my view somewhat and am adopting the good ol' "wait and see" attitude for now.  It's worth taking the time to read it to get a somewhat different perspective about it.  (Bear in mind that the article is from a Catholic, not Orthodox, pov, and should be read not in a spirit of judgmentalism and "Catholics are wrong" but in order to get a hopefully wider or better understanding of the actions of a Catholic Pope, in a Catholic context, from a Catholic writer.)
I read that NCRegister article too, and found it completely unconvincing. The Pedilavium rite within the context of the Great and Holy Thursday liturgy is not commemorating "service in general," but the institution of priestly service by Christ in commissioning His apostles to serve the people of God. Quite frankly the Roman Church does not need more liturgical innovation, and it most certainly does not need to be even more ritually Low Church than it is already.
We are actually agreeing on stuff. Smiley


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« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2013, 05:15:05 AM »

Maybe I've just been reading the thread(s) distractedly (distractedly?), but I didn't realize till now that one of the women was Muslim.

Good grief, that detail was all over the news in my neck of the woods ....
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« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2013, 05:24:01 AM »

Maybe I've just been reading the thread(s) distractedly (distractedly?), but I didn't realize till now that one of the women was Muslim.

Mash'Allah. Monophysites, muslims, the Roman Catholic church is on the good path.

Nepolitani, please review the RULES tab concerning the use of pejorative terms when describing other Churches.  If in doubt, ask before posting.  The next breach of these rules will result in a Warning.  Thanks so much - LizaSymonenko, Global Moderator
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« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2013, 10:14:04 AM »

Quote
(Bear in mind that the article is from a Catholic, not Orthodox, pov, and should be read not in a spirit of judgmentalism and "Catholics are wrong" but in order to get a hopefully wider or better understanding of the actions of a Catholic Pope, in a Catholic context, from a Catholic writer.)

Someone once told me that is what the Heresy of Ecumenism is - you know this heresy thats pervasive in nearly all the churches/denominations today.

I'm OK, you're OK, don't judge me, i won't judge you. Different strokes for Different Folks.

Back to the 70's, ya know?
https://sarumuse.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/back-to-the-1970s/

Yes, I believe that every single priest and bishop is potentially committing a sin to wash moslems women's feet within or after a Mass of Maundy Thursday.

I believe it is deeply wrong with all my heart and soul and would yell it from the rooftops!

GENDER and FAITH IS REAL !  God made us this way and no modernist influence prelate will change the truth which prevails forever.

Though I also recognize that Pope Francis is going along with the mainstream prevailing loosy goosy attitude in his church to act in such a manner and has many other virtues and positive lessons to teach us. Yet this recent example suggests that the "Spirit of Vatican II" has at last come home to roost and will take over the city of Rome in ways no one ever thought possible. What you see at your average parish church in the US or Argentina will now be seen in Rome too. Rome will no longer be held to a higher standard, it will feature the same abuses and novelties that many know quite well from USA masses.


Photo: Fr. Bill Holtzinger at parish of St. Patrick of the Forest Catholic Church, Cave Junction, Oregon, USA.

I hope Pope Francis doesn't decide to adopt a poodle.
If he did, I should hope Met. Hilarion would have an opportunity to pet it ....


If I was in a church where what is pictured above happened, I'd walk out---immediately!!  And probably not very quietly, either, may God forgive me!
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« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2013, 10:16:13 AM »

Maybe I've just been reading the thread(s) distractedly (distractedly?), but I didn't realize till now that one of the women was Muslim.

Mash'Allah. Uniates, muslims, the papist church is on the good path.

Uniates?  Hey...I'm a "Uniate".  Cool  (I thought we weren't supposed to use that word around here--not that it bothers me in the least, but some do take offense.)
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« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2013, 10:21:05 AM »

When I first heard that Pope Francis washed the feet of 2 women, one of whom was Muslim, I thought..."Oh.  No.  Here comes liberal 'inclusiveness' and all manner of other garbage along with it."  Then I read this article http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/how-should-we-understand-pope-francis-washing-womens-feet/ .  I have have since revised my view somewhat and am adopting the good ol' "wait and see" attitude for now.  It's worth taking the time to read it to get a somewhat different perspective about it.  (Bear in mind that the article is from a Catholic, not Orthodox, pov, and should be read not in a spirit of judgmentalism and "Catholics are wrong" but in order to get a hopefully wider or better understanding of the actions of a Catholic Pope, in a Catholic context, from a Catholic writer.)
I read that NCRegister article too, and found it completely unconvincing. The Pedilavium rite within the context of the Great and Holy Thursday liturgy is not commemorating "service in general," but the institution of priestly service by Christ in commissioning His apostles to serve the people of God. Quite frankly the Roman Church does not need more liturgical innovation, and it most certainly does not need to be even more ritually Low Church than it is already.

That is precisely why I revised my view *somewhat*, and adopted a wait and see attitude.  I guess I'm slightly more gullible and open to "suggestion" than you, as I didn't find it completely unconvincing.  There was enough there to give me pause for thought about my own judgmentalism and preconceived ideas--but the depth of my catechesis and education is not nearly as great as that of others here.  And no, I'm *not* being sarcastic.
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« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2013, 05:15:19 PM »

I read that NCRegister article too, and found it completely unconvincing. The Pedilavium rite within the context of the Great and Holy Thursday liturgy is not commemorating "service in general," but the institution of priestly service by Christ in commissioning His apostles to serve the people of God. Quite frankly the Roman Church does not need more liturgical innovation, and it most certainly does not need to be even more ritually Low Church than it is already.

That is precisely why I revised my view *somewhat*, and adopted a wait and see attitude.  I guess I'm slightly more gullible and open to "suggestion" than you, as I didn't find it completely unconvincing.  There was enough there to give me pause for thought about my own judgmentalism and preconceived ideas--but the depth of my catechesis and education is not nearly as great as that of others here.  And no, I'm *not* being sarcastic.
If knowing the meaning of the Pedilavium rite according to Tradition is a form of "judgmentalism" then I am guilty as charged. That said, the constant desire for liturgical innovation in the Roman Church is a problem even if large numbers of Roman Catholics refuse to see it as one.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 05:38:45 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2013, 05:17:37 PM »

Jesuits for the most part went over to the dark side some time ago I'm afraid.  Just look at Jesuit universities.

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What's up with Jesuit universities?
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« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2013, 05:27:01 PM »

Jesuits for the most part went over to the dark side some time ago I'm afraid.  Just look at Jesuit universities.

W.Unland

What's up with Jesuit universities?
Here's an example of what is going on:

Gonzaga University Denies Knights of Columbus Student Group Because it’s Catholic
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« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2013, 07:32:18 PM »

Jesuits for the most part went over to the dark side some time ago I'm afraid.  Just look at Jesuit universities.

W.Unland

What's up with Jesuit universities?
Here's an example of what is going on:

Gonzaga University Denies Knights of Columbus Student Group Because it’s Catholic
So, a Catholic University denied a Catholic group from forming? What?
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« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2013, 07:41:50 PM »

Jesuits for the most part went over to the dark side some time ago I'm afraid.  Just look at Jesuit universities.

W.Unland

What's up with Jesuit universities?
Here's an example of what is going on:

Gonzaga University Denies Knights of Columbus Student Group Because it’s Catholic

The simple fact is that the Once Catholic Universities are now acting like Secular institutions.  This was a big big issue with Pope John Paul II.  He was very concerned that these once bastions of universality in Christian Doctrine found themselves smack dab in the middle of American relativism.  And as such are making compromises in sex, gay, doctrinal issues much to the dismay of more conservative Bishops in America.
Whether they can put the 'toothpaste' back into the tube is in question.  Will these once proud colleges get back to basics?
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« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2013, 07:50:49 PM »

Jesuits for the most part went over to the dark side some time ago I'm afraid.  Just look at Jesuit universities.

W.Unland

What's up with Jesuit universities?
They're not the only ones.  I taught at DePaul for two years before it struck me that it was supposed to be "a Catholic University".
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« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2013, 09:38:25 PM »

Well I've narrowed my college search down to a Jesuit university (St. Louis) and a public one. Y'all are saying they'd be about equivalent spiritually?
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« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2013, 09:50:37 PM »

Well I've narrowed my college search down to a Jesuit university (St. Louis) and a public one. Y'all are saying they'd be about equivalent spiritually?
St. Louis is one of the good ones.
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« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2013, 02:45:13 PM »

Well I've narrowed my college search down to a Jesuit university (St. Louis) and a public one. Y'all are saying they'd be about equivalent spiritually?
http://www.cardinalnewmansociety.org/TheNewmanGuide.aspx

I have heard some good things about St. Louis University also, but I would strongly recommend doing some serious searching on the matter.  You may find that you are better served attending a public university for half the price which has a strong Catholic Center like you would find at a school such as Texas A&M.  Archbishop Fulton Sheen didn't recommend to his friends that they send their children to public schools where they could learn to fight for their faith rather than to a Catholic school which might steal it from them for nothing. 

Peace,
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« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2013, 11:53:51 PM »

I wonder how Orthodox Balamand University is.... Wink
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« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2013, 12:32:40 AM »

I read that NCRegister article too, and found it completely unconvincing. The Pedilavium rite within the context of the Great and Holy Thursday liturgy is not commemorating "service in general," but the institution of priestly service by Christ in commissioning His apostles to serve the people of God. Quite frankly the Roman Church does not need more liturgical innovation, and it most certainly does not need to be even more ritually Low Church than it is already.

That is precisely why I revised my view *somewhat*, and adopted a wait and see attitude.  I guess I'm slightly more gullible and open to "suggestion" than you, as I didn't find it completely unconvincing.  There was enough there to give me pause for thought about my own judgmentalism and preconceived ideas--but the depth of my catechesis and education is not nearly as great as that of others here.  And no, I'm *not* being sarcastic.
If knowing the meaning of the Pedilavium rite according to Tradition is a form of "judgmentalism" then I am guilty as charged. That said, the constant desire for liturgical innovation in the Roman Church is a problem even if large numbers of Roman Catholics refuse to see it as one.

 Reaching out to troubled teens by showing that the head of ~ 1+ billion Catholics, a servant of Christ, loves them enough to humble himself with this gesture is profound in itself and surely had an impact on those kids and others. I have no problem with this and I applaud the Pope not for 'innovation' but loving service. I do, however, agree with the other poster that the Pope could have performed the traditional ritual and then visited the jail, but hindsight is 20/20. And I don't think it is fair to make a subjective and personal diagnosis about whether the Pope is "bored" in mass. From having a sibling with one lung, as Pope Francis has, I can tell you that seemingly normal daily activities are exhausting for people with that condition.
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« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2013, 01:29:10 AM »

I read that NCRegister article too, and found it completely unconvincing. The Pedilavium rite within the context of the Great and Holy Thursday liturgy is not commemorating "service in general," but the institution of priestly service by Christ in commissioning His apostles to serve the people of God. Quite frankly the Roman Church does not need more liturgical innovation, and it most certainly does not need to be even more ritually Low Church than it is already.

That is precisely why I revised my view *somewhat*, and adopted a wait and see attitude.  I guess I'm slightly more gullible and open to "suggestion" than you, as I didn't find it completely unconvincing.  There was enough there to give me pause for thought about my own judgmentalism and preconceived ideas--but the depth of my catechesis and education is not nearly as great as that of others here.  And no, I'm *not* being sarcastic.
If knowing the meaning of the Pedilavium rite according to Tradition is a form of "judgmentalism" then I am guilty as charged. That said, the constant desire for liturgical innovation in the Roman Church is a problem even if large numbers of Roman Catholics refuse to see it as one.

 Reaching out to troubled teens by showing that the head of ~ 1+ billion Catholics, a servant of Christ, loves them enough to humble himself with this gesture is profound in itself and surely had an impact on those kids and others. I have no problem with this and I applaud the Pope not for 'innovation' but loving service. I do, however, agree with the other poster that the Pope could have performed the traditional ritual and then visited the jail, but hindsight is 20/20. And I don't think it is fair to make a subjective and personal diagnosis about whether the Pope is "bored" in mass. From having a sibling with one lung, as Pope Francis has, I can tell you that seemingly normal daily activities are exhausting for people with that condition.
The pope could have washed the kids feet outside of the Pedilavium Rite. In fact, he can go there and wash those young peoples feet daily and I would not mind a bit. But the pope should not alter the Church's liturgy to fit his own personal interests.
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