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Author Topic: Hitler's hate towards the Jews  (Read 9383 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dionysii
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« Reply #360 on: April 19, 2013, 11:40:53 AM »

As despicable as it was, Auschwitz's function was in fact as a deportation facility - not a mass murder camp.

Do you know where Auschwitz is? Go look it up on a map and tell me if you think that that's a good place to locate a 'deportation facility'.
I agree , ofcourse, that many jews were murdered by the Nazis, but as to the Nazis overall intention for the jewish majority:

If their idea was to deport them out of europe (as opposed to killing them), then a facilities located towards the borders of europe does actually make sense.

The Nazis deported the jewish residents of the Netherlands, for example, to eastern europe. 
Why would they bother to move them all the way over there if their intention was to kill them which they could have done on the spot? 
That is what makes no sense.  Most of the evidence points to an intended deportation.
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« Reply #361 on: April 19, 2013, 11:50:10 AM »

Boze moi. Auschwitz not a death camp? God help us as we have no common ground.

I will concede that history is built on shades of gray, never black and white in its entirety, but....neither is history a speculative non-scientific discipline. While SERIOUS academics can differ about the entirety  of the narrative of a  particular historical event, some things are not seriously in dispute.

Defending the reality of the Holocaust is not akin to defending Zionism or the non biblical, irreligious modern state of Israel  - another western "nation state" born out of the failure and arrogance of Versailles.

Good op-ed in today's NY Times on point: "The Jewish Hero History Forgot  SEVENTY years ago today, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising began as a group of young men and women fired the shots that began the largest single act of Jewish resistance during the Holocaust." Not all were Zionists or Marxists - a fact conveniently overlooked by many. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/the-jewish-hero-history-forgot.html#http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.jsonp


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« Reply #362 on: April 19, 2013, 11:51:53 AM »

As despicable as it was, Auschwitz's function was in fact as a deportation facility - not a mass murder camp.

Do you know where Auschwitz is? Go look it up on a map and tell me if you think that that's a good place to locate a 'deportation facility'.
I agree , ofcourse, that many jews were murdered by the Nazis, but as to the Nazis overall intention for the jewish majority:

If their idea was to deport them out of europe (as opposed to killing them), then a facilities located towards the borders of europe does actually make sense.

The Nazis deported the jewish residents of the Netherlands, for example, to eastern europe. 
Why would they bother to move them all the way over there if their intention was to kill them which they could have done on the spot? 
That is what makes no sense.  Most of the evidence points to an intended deportation.

But Auschwitz isn't on the borders of Europe, it's practically dead centre and right in the middle of the land mass. If it was a deportation centre why wasn't it on the coast? Or alternatively, if you're going to claim that it was for deporting western Jews further east, explain why they deported Jews from north eastern Romania to Auschwitz - that's 700km in entirely the wrong direction!

And you seriously think this makes more sense than it being a death camp built close to large Jewish populations?

James
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« Reply #363 on: April 19, 2013, 12:06:04 PM »

Where do you have evidence that they were pro-Nazi?
'51 Documents:  Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis'
http://www.scribd.com/doc/62566203/Lenni-Brenner-51-Documents-Zionist-Collaboration-With-the-Nazis
http://www.amazon.com/51-Documents-Zionist-Collaboration-Nazis/dp/1569804338

'Perfidy'
By Ben Hecht
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/perfidy.pdf

'Perfidy' is a history of a 1950's trial in Israel which exposed zionist cooperation with the Nazis in World War II. 
One Israeli named Kastner became the fall guy for the Israeli leaders, but the trial did bring down Ben Gurion's government which had been in place since the state was founded in 1948.
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« Reply #364 on: April 19, 2013, 12:18:42 PM »

If it was a deportation centre why wasn't it on the coast?

Bringing jews to Palestine was the objective of the zionist side of the Israeli-Nazi pact.  The Nazis wanted to remove them from europe without as much concern for where they ended.  America was an ocean away and it rejected jews at the time.  Asia generally and Russia specifically was one of the most practical for Nazi plans.

Accordingly, I have read that a Nazi plan for european jews during the 1930's including a plan to deport european jews to eastern Africa.  A British plan that went back to circa 1903 schemed to relocate european jews to Uganda, and it was an offer made as a reply to requests for the relocation of jews from europe to Palestine by Theodore Herzl. 
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« Reply #365 on: April 19, 2013, 12:22:12 PM »

And you seriously think this makes more sense than it being a death camp built close to large Jewish populations?

A few years ago, I read Arthur Butz's book 'The Hoax of the Twentieth Century' and became convinced that his argument is basically correct.
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« Reply #366 on: April 19, 2013, 12:33:09 PM »

What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them?
The truth is that most of them were in fact not killed.  They departed to other places.

That is not to deny that Hitler hated jews because he very much did hate them and did cause the murder of many of them.
The man had serious issues, and he himself was a zionist.

Adolf Hitler:  Founder of Israel
http://holywar.org/txt/founder_of_Israel.pdf


Denying the Holocaust is to be pro-Nazi
It's accepting their lie
My bishop (with the Matthewites) said to me not long ago "I was born during the night, but I wasn't born last night."
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« Reply #367 on: April 19, 2013, 01:23:26 PM »

And you seriously think this makes more sense than it being a death camp built close to large Jewish populations?

A few years ago, I read Arthur Butz's book 'The Hoax of the Twentieth Century' and became convinced that his argument is basically correct.

Just a side note, lest anyone outside of the Orthosphere conclude that the Orthodox Christian faith endorses the rubbish being scattered here as fact, I offer the following. I know that this will elicit vitriol from those challenged by Fr. Sergei, all I will say to their anticipated response is that God will judge each of us by our words, thoughts and deeds. I hope to stand with the faithful like Father Sergei on that dread day. The paper is clearly written, lengthy and well worth the time read:

The relevance of Western post-Holocaust theology to the thought and practice of the Russian Orthodox Church

by  Archpriest Sergei Hackel

published in Sobornost 20:1 (1998); Sobornost is the journal of the Fellowship of Saints Alban and Sergius (1 Canterbury Rd., Oxford OX2 6LU, England UK)

http://www.incommunion.org/2004/10/24/post-holocaust-theology/

Father Sergei's words are powerful and render the nonsense of the deniers and anti-Semites pitiful by comparison. Father Sergei, an ethnic Russian, reposed in 2005. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/fr-sergei-hackel-6151465.html
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« Reply #368 on: April 19, 2013, 01:51:55 PM »

Here is the list produced by Eichmann at the Wannsee Conference.  The Holocaust is one of the most well-documented genocides in history.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WannseeList.jpg

I wanted to post a relevant comment about this document from the Wannsee conference.
The words which I have italicized are those which I believe place this document in its proper context:

Quote from: Germar Rudolf
The first statement concerns the so-called Wannsee Protocol of January 1942. This document is said to summarize the contents of a meeting which was held among second-tier politicians of the Third Reich regarding the implementation of plans about the so-called “Final Solution of the Jewish Question.”
 
Prof. Eßbach claims that the fact that we do not have an exact transcript of the Wannsee conference, revisionists claim that this has to lead to doubts whether that conference took place in the first place (11: 12:49-13:00). I am not aware of any revisionist text that claims this. Regarding the Wannsee Protocol, the revisionists are basically divided into two groups:
 
a) One group insists that the two version of the Wannsee Protocol known today are forgeries. The reasons for this are manifold and will not be repeated here. None of the authors adhering to this thesis has ever claimed, however, that such a conference never took place. Quite to the contrary, their critique even dealt to various degrees with what the participants of this conference have claimed about it later on. When it comes to this document’s contents, this group is merely concerned with whether that which is written in the protocol conforms to what was discussed during that meeting.[3]
 
b) A second group assumes at least that the protocol’s contents are authentic, and maybe that it itself is genuine, because it does not contain anything that hints at a physical extermination of the Jews. The contents of that document are therefore in basic agreement with what this group considers to be historical facts."
http://germarrudolf.com/2012/10/professor-hot-air-nozzle

The question is where does this document state that the peoples listed therein are intended for slaughter? It doesn't.
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« Reply #369 on: April 19, 2013, 02:05:10 PM »

It's impossible to take seriously the words of a supposedly well educated would-be alternative historian who refers to an academic with whom he takes issue with as " Professor Hot Air Nozzle". Such rhetorical tactics seem more fitted to a radio host "preaching" to the choir, like Michael Savage or Rush Limbaugh, rather than a serious person honestly attempting to counter conventional wisdom or add to the body of established knowledge.

At least Amazon is smart enough to place "alternative history" under fiction.
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« Reply #370 on: April 19, 2013, 02:12:32 PM »

On a somewhat related note, I think that many folks underestimate just how tough the Japanese were in World War II. They would literally fight until the death of the last man and then would have their women, children and old folks fight too until their whole population was decimated. Man for man they were superior to any army in the world at the time. Most veterans I've talked to have all said that fighting in the Pacific was ten times worse than in Europe. And if it weren't for the atomic bomb and the United States's manufacturing power, I think that they could have taken on any world power at the time individually; even Germany, due to Japan's naval superiority.
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« Reply #371 on: April 19, 2013, 02:13:41 PM »

I took a look at this and found it to be a jewish condemnation of the Orthodox Church that demands alteration of everything in the history of the Orthodox Church not amenable to the more extreme views of modern zionists including changing the liturgy, reproving Church Fathers who wrote about jews, etc.

It's a Russian "orthodox" version of John Hagee.
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« Reply #372 on: April 19, 2013, 02:19:34 PM »

I took a look at this and found it to be a jewish condemnation of the Orthodox Church that demands alteration of everything in the history of the Orthodox Church not amenable to the more extreme views of modern zionists including changing the liturgy, reproving Church Fathers who wrote about jews, etc.

It's a Russian "orthodox" version of John Hagee.

That line right there is enough to give a person nightmares.
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« Reply #373 on: April 19, 2013, 02:28:55 PM »

On a somewhat related note, I think that many folks underestimate just how tough the Japanese were in World War II. They would literally fight until the death of the last man and then would have their women, children and old folks fight too until their whole population was decimated. Man for man they were superior to any army in the world at the time. Most veterans I've talked to have all said that fighting in the Pacific was ten times worse than in Europe. And if it weren't for the atomic bomb and the United States's manufacturing power, I think that they could have taken on any world power at the time individually; even Germany, due to Japan's naval superiority.

If you get the chance, I recommend you watch the Bollywood movie 'Bose - Forgotten Hero' about the extraordinary Subhas Chandra Bose of whom I think of as India's answer to Malcolm X.  I appreciate that the movie depicts Hitler as a bigoted idiot and does a really fine job of placing Bose's relation to Hitler in the right context.  The movie depicts General Tojo in a much better light, and Bose knew both.  The movie is critical of Ghandi, but maintains an overall respect for him.  I afterwards watched Ben Kingsley's 'Ghandi' from the early 1980's and greatly enjoyed both movies.  I suggest reading a bit about Subhas Chandra Bose before watching as he is one of the most enigmatic figures of World War II.  He was Ghandi's political opponent who desired using arms to force the British out, and there is no one more directly responsible for the death of the British empire. The entire movie is on youtube as a whole and also in 20 minute segments, and large segments of it are in English. Awesome movie and historically accurate.  

Subhas Chandra Bose
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhas_Chandra_Bose

Bose - The Forgotten Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIwqOb4KqGg
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« Reply #374 on: April 19, 2013, 02:33:47 PM »

I took a look at this and found it to be a jewish condemnation of the Orthodox Church that demands alteration of everything in the history of the Orthodox Church not amenable to the more extreme views of modern zionists including changing the liturgy, reproving Church Fathers who wrote about jews, etc.

It's a Russian "orthodox" version of John Hagee.

Your response did not fail to meet my prediction and was anticipated.

Sir, I suspect you do not consider me and those, who of like mind, stand with the ancient, venerable Patriarchates and their daughter, self ruling Churches to be anything other than heterodox. That bothers me not in the least. You and your co-sectarians have willfully chosen your own path apart from and separate from the Orthodox Church regardless of how you fashion yourselves. So be it, as it is the fate of your soul in the balance.

As to what I consider you from an Orthodox point of view, I shall leave that to the imagination of our readers. However, as to the point of view you espouse in this matter, it is both abhorrent and intellectually vacant.
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« Reply #375 on: April 19, 2013, 02:48:21 PM »

as to the point of view you espouse in this matter, it is both abhorrent and intellectually vacant
Coming from someone who endorses the stuff @ http://www.incommunion.org/2004/10/24/post-holocaust-theology ,
I'll go ahead and take that one as a compliment.

Your response did not fail to meet my prediction and was anticipated.
I'm glad that we can agree on something, even if it is to disagree.
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« Reply #376 on: April 19, 2013, 02:57:02 PM »

I took a look at this and found it to be a jewish condemnation of the Orthodox Church that demands alteration of everything in the history of the Orthodox Church not amenable to the more extreme views of modern zionists including changing the liturgy, reproving Church Fathers who wrote about jews, etc.

It's a Russian "orthodox" version of John Hagee.

Your response did not fail to meet my prediction and was anticipated.

Sir, I suspect you do not consider me and those, who of like mind, stand with the ancient, venerable Patriarchates and their daughter, self ruling Churches to be anything other than heterodox. That bothers me not in the least. You and your co-sectarians have willfully chosen your own path apart from and separate from the Orthodox Church regardless of how you fashion yourselves. So be it, as it is the fate of your soul in the balance.

As to what I consider you from an Orthodox point of view, I shall leave that to the imagination of our readers. However, as to the point of view you espouse in this matter, it is both abhorrent and intellectually vacant.

+1

Not to mention gruesome.
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« Reply #377 on: April 19, 2013, 03:01:20 PM »

Boze moi. Auschwitz not a death camp? God help us as we have no common ground.

I will concede that history is built on shades of gray, never black and white in its entirety, but....neither is history a speculative non-scientific discipline. While SERIOUS academics can differ about the entirety  of the narrative of a  particular historical event, some things are not seriously in dispute.

Defending the reality of the Holocaust is not akin to defending Zionism or the non biblical, irreligious modern state of Israel  - another western "nation state" born out of the failure and arrogance of Versailles.

Good op-ed in today's NY Times on point: "The Jewish Hero History Forgot  SEVENTY years ago today, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising began as a group of young men and women fired the shots that began the largest single act of Jewish resistance during the Holocaust." Not all were Zionists or Marxists - a fact conveniently overlooked by many. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/the-jewish-hero-history-forgot.html#http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.jsonp

I was looking over this thread and wanted to say that this particular post was actually not too bad.
- Jewish holocaust and state of Israel two different things >  Smiley
- Commemorating the warsaw ghetto uprising >  Smiley  Smiley  Smiley

EDIT:
THE JEWISH HERO HISTORY FORGOT
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/the-jewish-hero-history-forgot.html#http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.jsonp

Great article and rather perceptive.  This just came out.  
Marxists and zionists fighting side by side.  Interesting what having a common enemy can do.
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« Reply #378 on: April 19, 2013, 03:15:43 PM »

Auschwitz not a death camp? God help us as we have no common ground.

 Wink Almost, but not quite...

Good op-ed in today's NY Times on point: "The Jewish Hero History Forgot  SEVENTY years ago today, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising began as a group of young men and women fired the shots that began the largest single act of Jewish resistance during the Holocaust." Not all were Zionists or Marxists - a fact conveniently overlooked by many. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/the-jewish-hero-history-forgot.html#http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.jsonp

This inspires me to go out and find a really dynamic and spirited account of the Warsaw ghetto uprising -
comparable to something like Che Guevara's 'Episodes of the Cuban Revolutionary War.'
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« Reply #379 on: April 19, 2013, 03:59:34 PM »

So what was the reason of Ghetto Uprising if the Germans hadn't wanted to kill Jews? Who fought in the Uprising since there were only several thousands of Jews involved in the Holocaust? Where are these 50k of Jewish civilian and soldier causalities from?
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« Reply #380 on: April 19, 2013, 04:43:16 PM »

Good op-ed in today's NY Times on point: "The Jewish Hero History Forgot  SEVENTY years ago today, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising began as a group of young men and women fired the shots that began the largest single act of Jewish resistance during the Holocaust." Not all were Zionists or Marxists - a fact conveniently overlooked by many. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/the-jewish-hero-history-forgot.html#http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.jsonp

From the end of that NY Times article:

Quote from: Marci Shore NY Times article
Edelman, who had survived by escaping through the sewers, was the last living commander of the uprising. After the war, in Communist Poland, he became a cardiologist: “to outwit God,” as he once said. In the 1970s and ’80s he re-emerged in the public sphere as an activist in the anti-Communist opposition, working with the Committee for the Defense of Workers and the Solidarity movement. He died in 2009, and to this day, he is celebrated as a hero in Poland.

He is remembered with more ambivalence in Israel. “Israel has a problem with Jews like Edelman,” the Israeli author Etgar Keret told a Polish newspaper in 2009. “He didn’t want to live here. And he never said that he fought in the ghetto so that the state of Israel would come into being.” Not even Moshe Arens, a former Israeli defense minister and an admirer of Edelman, could persuade an Israeli university to grant the uprising hero an honorary degree.

After the war, Yitzhak Zuckerman and Zivia Lubetkin, who had survived with Edelman, founded a kibbutz in Israel in memory of the ghetto fighters. Edelman remained close to them until they died.

Zionism, however, remained unappealing to him. Nor did he fantasize about reviving the diaspora nationalism of the Bund. He believed the history of Jews in Poland was over. There were no more Jews.
“It’s sad for Poland,” he told me in 1997, “because a single-nation state is never a good thing.”
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« Reply #381 on: April 19, 2013, 04:46:32 PM »

Good op-ed in today's NY Times on point: "The Jewish Hero History Forgot  SEVENTY years ago today, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising began as a group of young men and women fired the shots that began the largest single act of Jewish resistance during the Holocaust." Not all were Zionists or Marxists - a fact conveniently overlooked by many. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/the-jewish-hero-history-forgot.html#http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.jsonp

From the end of that NY Times article:

Quote from: Marci Shore NY Times article
Edelman, who had survived by escaping through the sewers, was the last living commander of the uprising. After the war, in Communist Poland, he became a cardiologist: “to outwit God,” as he once said. In the 1970s and ’80s he re-emerged in the public sphere as an activist in the anti-Communist opposition, working with the Committee for the Defense of Workers and the Solidarity movement. He died in 2009, and to this day, he is celebrated as a hero in Poland.

He is remembered with more ambivalence in Israel. “Israel has a problem with Jews like Edelman,” the Israeli author Etgar Keret told a Polish newspaper in 2009. “He didn’t want to live here. And he never said that he fought in the ghetto so that the state of Israel would come into being.” Not even Moshe Arens, a former Israeli defense minister and an admirer of Edelman, could persuade an Israeli university to grant the uprising hero an honorary degree.

After the war, Yitzhak Zuckerman and Zivia Lubetkin, who had survived with Edelman, founded a kibbutz in Israel in memory of the ghetto fighters. Edelman remained close to them until they died.

Zionism, however, remained unappealing to him. Nor did he fantasize about reviving the diaspora nationalism of the Bund. He believed the history of Jews in Poland was over. There were no more Jews.
“It’s sad for Poland,” he told me in 1997, “because a single-nation state is never a good thing.”

What's your point?
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« Reply #382 on: April 19, 2013, 05:40:44 PM »

The heroic and Christ-like actions of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church during the Bulgarian states dalliance with the Axis and in response to Bulgaria's Nationalities Law, modeled after the Reich's Nuremburg Laws is inspiring. This article by Bulgarian Orthodox Archimandrite Pavel (Stefanov) is a testament to the hierarchy of wartime Bulgaria.

One link to the pdf file through Facebook can be found here http://shu-bg.academia.edu/PavelStefanov or by searching Father Pavel and the holocaust.
 

More about Bulgaria: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2013/03/a-nation-that-showed-courage-bulgaria-and-the-jews/
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« Reply #383 on: April 19, 2013, 05:55:56 PM »

Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens: http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/es/generales/archbishop-damaskinos/

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« Reply #384 on: April 19, 2013, 06:51:22 PM »


I would like to point out that this webpage is honoring Nazi collaborators.  Considering that the livelihood of the Athens Chief of police Angelos Evert was spent hunting communists, I doubt that he saved more peope than he killed and endangered - including jews.  The post-war anti-communist government of Greece was based upon this Nazi racist system of which he was an active part.  

The Greek communists led by Aris Velouchiotis and Stefanos Sarafis were the greatest friends of both jews and Greek peasants.  Police chief Angelos Evert and Bishop Damaskinos were part of the Nazi system that persecuted jews and communists alike in WWII Greece.  

Frieends of Greek Jewry * bestows annual Moral Courage Award on General Stefanos Sarafis
http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-139-Awards-of-Moral-Courage-Rescue-of-Greek-Jews.html

*of the Kehila Kenosha Synagogue of Greek Jews in Manhattan, NY (Romaniote)

It appeared that the fascist Greek government which the CIA and British had Sarafis assassinated by an american military man in the mid-1950's.
Sarafis himself did write an excellent history of the war in 1946 from the communist perspective.
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« Reply #385 on: April 19, 2013, 07:12:38 PM »

Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens attempted to save the Nazis by pleading their cause with the communists to spare the Nazis as they retreated.  Conversely, if he ever pled on behalf of the Greeks who fought the Nazis, then it would be news to me.  That is more characteristic of cowardice interested in preserving one's own position than any ideal.

Source - 'The Kapetanios: Partisans and Civil War in Greece: 1943-1949' by Dominique Eudes

Archbishop Damaskinos was very politically astute.  He assisted jews and Greek rebellions when he perceived it would assist his credibility with them.  He never organized resistance, and he only joined it when he perceived the tide was turning.  He served Nazis as long as the alternative was unpalatable.  He could have been worse, but he was not heroic in any sense.
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« Reply #386 on: April 19, 2013, 07:51:12 PM »

Archbishop Damaskinos was the ruler of Greece for most of the the British period from 1944 to 1946 when the monarch returned, and he did nothing to stop Greek fascist terror organizations that were founded and operated with Nazi support.  These organizations continued to murder jews and non-monarchists while Archbishop Damaskinos was in power and knew of these things.
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« Reply #387 on: April 19, 2013, 08:30:03 PM »

As despicable as it was, Auschwitz's function was in fact as a deportation facility - not a mass murder camp.

Do you know where Auschwitz is? Go look it up on a map and tell me if you think that that's a good place to locate a 'deportation facility'.
I agree , ofcourse, that many jews were murdered by the Nazis, but as to the Nazis overall intention for the jewish majority:

If their idea was to deport them out of europe (as opposed to killing them), then a facilities located towards the borders of europe does actually make sense.

The Nazis deported the jewish residents of the Netherlands, for example, to eastern europe. 
Why would they bother to move them all the way over there if their intention was to kill them which they could have done on the spot? 
That is what makes no sense.  Most of the evidence points to an intended deportation.

That's not true.

It was a flirtation of theirs to transport the Jews early on, but in the end they decided to murder them.

As to deporting them to Eastern Europe and not killing them out-right - it was to hide what they were doing
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« Reply #388 on: April 19, 2013, 08:35:16 PM »

Boze moi. Auschwitz not a death camp? God help us as we have no common ground.
Don't be fooled by Nazi apology!

The Nazi apologist has to be pedantic when it comes to facts.

Auschwitz was at the heart of a number of camps. It was a giant complex, almost a city of camps.

Technically the death camp was called Birkenau, but this is also known as Auschwitz II-Birkenau, so someone arguing that Auschwitz is not a death camp is simply attempting a game of apologetics based on pedantics.

He knows this, no doubt.
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« Reply #389 on: April 19, 2013, 08:39:58 PM »

Bringing jews to Palestine was the objective of the zionist side of the Israeli-Nazi pact.  The Nazis wanted to remove them from europe without as much concern for where they ended.  America was an ocean away and it rejected jews at the time.  Asia generally and Russia specifically was one of the most practical for Nazi plans.
Joining the first two statements is a non-sequitur. Whilst both statements are true there is no correlation between the aims of the two groups except in your mind.

The Nazis hated the Jews.

Zionists did not.

You keep posting blog-like and ignoring questions and points raised.

I already raised the point that Palestine was a British mandate. It's totally academic for any of the two groups to desire the Jews to go to Palestine because the British would have to agree.

Furthermore you have noted that the Germans wanted the Jews out of Europe, not necessarily to Madagascar. Zionists would not have worked with Germans who wanted Jews going to Madagascar!

But you have two near points of convergence of aim, and you tie them together based on no evidence at all.

And the worse part is, it's simply to blame the Jews for what happened to them.
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« Reply #390 on: April 19, 2013, 08:49:21 PM »

What some Nazi apologists are trying to do is blame Jews for the Holocaust

Nazis wanted Jews out of Europe.

Zionists wanted Jews in Israel.

There is but the tiniest convergence of interest here. However

a) Zionists worked with the British, or around the British because Britain ruled Palestine.

b) Nazis hated Jews and originally considered deporting Jews - but EVEN IF they wanted them in Palestine they'd have to have agreement with the British and there's absolutely NO EVIDENCE put forward, even from any looney right wing writer here about the Nazis working with the British to move the Jews to Palestine, so EVEN IF the Zionists had worked with the Nazis, their alliance would be totally academic because neither of them would be able to move ahead without Britain.

I keep punching holes in the pro-Nazi apology here; a very easy thing to do. But the blog just goes on.

The whole point of 'the Jews' working as a group to support Hitler, or anyone, is itself racist.
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« Reply #391 on: April 19, 2013, 08:53:10 PM »

I always understood that Begin was a member of the Irgun, not the Stern gang.
You are correct.  Menachem Begin joined Irgun of which group Avraham Stern was a former member.


Where do you have evidence that they were pro-Nazi?
National Military Organization [NMO / Stern Gang]

Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning
the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany (1941)

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/mideast/agedict/irgunazi.htm

The Lehi (led by Stern) were an offshoot of Irgun who were led by Jabotinsky and later formed the basis of the right-wing Likud political party.

The Irgun which Menachem Begin joined were a terrorist organization that killed scores of people and itself entered WWII in 1944 on the side of the Nazis.


And now you're citing Marxists!

Marxists are in general anti-Israel - seeing it as a fascist extension of US capitalism; it's why 'traditionally' the Soviet Union was pro-Arab.

If you have a source with no axe to grind that would be great.

My communist friends are all dead-set pro-Palestinian

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« Reply #392 on: April 19, 2013, 09:37:32 PM »

Marxists are in general anti-Israel - seeing it as a fascist extension of US capitalism; it's why 'traditionally' the Soviet Union was pro-Arab.
...
My communist friends are all dead-set pro-Palestinian
Although my sentiments are perhaps slightly more anarchist than Marxian, you can count me along with your communist friends on this one.
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« Reply #393 on: April 19, 2013, 09:39:24 PM »

If you have a source with no axe to grind that would be great.
Does quoting you qualify?
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« Reply #394 on: April 19, 2013, 10:09:31 PM »


I wanted to post a relevant comment about this document from the Wannsee conference.
The words which I have italicized are those which I believe place this document in its proper context:

Quote from: Germar Rudolf
The first statement concerns the so-called Wannsee Protocol of January 1942. This document is said to summarize the contents of a meeting which was held among second-tier politicians of the Third Reich regarding the implementation of plans about the so-called “Final Solution of the Jewish Question.”
 
Prof. Eßbach claims that the fact that we do not have an exact transcript of the Wannsee conference, revisionists claim that this has to lead to doubts whether that conference took place in the first place (11: 12:49-13:00). I am not aware of any revisionist text that claims this. Regarding the Wannsee Protocol, the revisionists are basically divided into two groups:
 
a) One group insists that the two version of the Wannsee Protocol known today are forgeries. The reasons for this are manifold and will not be repeated here. None of the authors adhering to this thesis has ever claimed, however, that such a conference never took place. Quite to the contrary, their critique even dealt to various degrees with what the participants of this conference have claimed about it later on. When it comes to this document’s contents, this group is merely concerned with whether that which is written in the protocol conforms to what was discussed during that meeting.[3]
 
b) A second group assumes at least that the protocol’s contents are authentic, and maybe that it itself is genuine, because it does not contain anything that hints at a physical extermination of the Jews. The contents of that document are therefore in basic agreement with what this group considers to be historical facts."
http://germarrudolf.com/2012/10/professor-hot-air-nozzle

The question is where does this document state that the peoples listed therein are intended for slaughter? It doesn't.

No, from what I remember of the details it doesn't because they used veiled language and discussed more specifics after the formal meeting.  Have you reviewed the testimony of Eichmann?  He directly states that the Fuehrer ordered the physical extermination of the Jews.  Everyone knew what was being discussed.  But in case, for some strange reason you reject the testimony of Eichmann, here is another set of original documents for your perusal. 

Harvard Law Library is assembling a digital collection of original documents.  Here you can see the opening statement of the Nuremberg Trials by the United States of America. 




If you care to learn more about it, you can read the entire document, and have a look around the site and read the testimonies and see the original Nazi documents.  The compilation and preservation of the documents is still underway. 

Havard Law School Library




The Transcripts   

 

"Currently, a portion of the Medical Case transcript is the only trial transcript material we are able to make available. The portion offered covers the first seven days of the proceedings. The full Medical Trial extends from 21 November 1946 (defense motion for continuance) through 20 August 1947 (sentences for those convicted). It includes witness testimony, the presentation of exhibits, oral arguments by counsel, and rulings by the tribunal. (It does not include the pre-trial indictment and arraignment, the post-trial appeals, the full text of the exhibits, or the written briefs.) The English language transcript fills twenty-three bound volumes and 11538 pages.

This transcript text was keyed in from the microfilm version of the trial transcript held by the National Archives (NARA), and then proofread and edited to conform to the text in the Harvard Law School Library Nuremberg collection. In particular, the pagination was adjusted when necessary to match the Harvard copy rather than the NARA copy when the two differed; therefore, document citations in the transcript will match the transcript citations in the analysis of the documents. In addition, many typographical errors have been corrected, using brackets when the error appeared in the original text. Although we have not attempted to correct factual errors in the text systematically, some have been corrected when both the error and the correction were obvious. The intended result is a clear text, but not a perfect one. Researchers who require the precise text of the National Archives copy, errors included, should consult the NARA microfilm."

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/NurTranscript/TranscriptSearches/tran_about.php



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« Reply #395 on: April 19, 2013, 11:12:02 PM »


I wanted to post a relevant comment about this document from the Wannsee conference.
The words which I have italicized are those which I believe place this document in its proper context:

Quote from: Germar Rudolf
The first statement concerns the so-called Wannsee Protocol of January 1942. This document is said to summarize the contents of a meeting which was held among second-tier politicians of the Third Reich regarding the implementation of plans about the so-called “Final Solution of the Jewish Question.”
 
Prof. Eßbach claims that the fact that we do not have an exact transcript of the Wannsee conference, revisionists claim that this has to lead to doubts whether that conference took place in the first place (11: 12:49-13:00). I am not aware of any revisionist text that claims this. Regarding the Wannsee Protocol, the revisionists are basically divided into two groups:
 
a) One group insists that the two version of the Wannsee Protocol known today are forgeries. The reasons for this are manifold and will not be repeated here. None of the authors adhering to this thesis has ever claimed, however, that such a conference never took place. Quite to the contrary, their critique even dealt to various degrees with what the participants of this conference have claimed about it later on. When it comes to this document’s contents, this group is merely concerned with whether that which is written in the protocol conforms to what was discussed during that meeting.[3]
 
b) A second group assumes at least that the protocol’s contents are authentic, and maybe that it itself is genuine, because it does not contain anything that hints at a physical extermination of the Jews. The contents of that document are therefore in basic agreement with what this group considers to be historical facts."
http://germarrudolf.com/2012/10/professor-hot-air-nozzle

The question is where does this document state that the peoples listed therein are intended for slaughter? It doesn't.

No, from what I remember of the details it doesn't because they used veiled language and discussed more specifics after the formal meeting.  Have you reviewed the testimony of Eichmann?  He directly states that the Fuehrer ordered the physical extermination of the Jews.  Everyone knew what was being discussed.  But in case, for some strange reason you reject the testimony of Eichmann, here is another set of original documents for your perusal. 

Harvard Law Library is assembling a digital collection of original documents.  Here you can see the opening statement of the Nuremberg Trials by the United States of America. 




If you care to learn more about it, you can read the entire document, and have a look around the site and read the testimonies and see the original Nazi documents.  The compilation and preservation of the documents is still underway. 

Havard Law School Library




The Transcripts   

 

"Currently, a portion of the Medical Case transcript is the only trial transcript material we are able to make available. The portion offered covers the first seven days of the proceedings. The full Medical Trial extends from 21 November 1946 (defense motion for continuance) through 20 August 1947 (sentences for those convicted). It includes witness testimony, the presentation of exhibits, oral arguments by counsel, and rulings by the tribunal. (It does not include the pre-trial indictment and arraignment, the post-trial appeals, the full text of the exhibits, or the written briefs.) The English language transcript fills twenty-three bound volumes and 11538 pages.

This transcript text was keyed in from the microfilm version of the trial transcript held by the National Archives (NARA), and then proofread and edited to conform to the text in the Harvard Law School Library Nuremberg collection. In particular, the pagination was adjusted when necessary to match the Harvard copy rather than the NARA copy when the two differed; therefore, document citations in the transcript will match the transcript citations in the analysis of the documents. In addition, many typographical errors have been corrected, using brackets when the error appeared in the original text. Although we have not attempted to correct factual errors in the text systematically, some have been corrected when both the error and the correction were obvious. The intended result is a clear text, but not a perfect one. Researchers who require the precise text of the National Archives copy, errors included, should consult the NARA microfilm."

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/NurTranscript/TranscriptSearches/tran_about.php





It is said that we all are entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts. It is important that those of us who knew those who fought the war, knew those who liberated the camps, knew neighbors and co - workers whose families disappeared after deportation or who survived stand and shout the truth.

Whatever the modern state of Israel is and regardless of the real miscarriages of justice suffered by the Palestinians and regardless of the stupidity and arrogance of American post war mideast foreign policy - regardless of any of that, what occurred at the hand of Hitler's Reich and its collaborators between 1932 and 1945 can never be forgotten or be excused or diminished. To do so is to risk the loss of our humanity and to imperil one's soul. To do so ensures repetition of history's worst excess.
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« Reply #396 on: April 19, 2013, 11:27:21 PM »

from what I remember of the details it doesn't because they used veiled language and discussed more specifics after the formal meeting.  Have you reviewed the testimony of Eichmann?  He directly states that the Fuehrer ordered the physical extermination of the Jews.  Everyone knew what was being discussed.  But in case, for some strange reason you reject the testimony of Eichmann, here is another set of original documents for your perusal.  

Harvard Law Library is assembling a digital collection of original documents.  Here you can see the opening statement of the Nuremberg Trials by the United States of America.  




If you care to learn more about it, you can read the entire document, and have a look around the site and read the testimonies and see the original Nazi documents.  The compilation and preservation of the documents is still underway.  

Havard Law School Library

The Transcripts   

"Currently, a portion of the Medical Case transcript is the only trial transcript material we are able to make available. The portion offered covers the first seven days of the proceedings. The full Medical Trial extends from 21 November 1946 (defense motion for continuance) through 20 August 1947 (sentences for those convicted). It includes witness testimony, the presentation of exhibits, oral arguments by counsel, and rulings by the tribunal. (It does not include the pre-trial indictment and arraignment, the post-trial appeals, the full text of the exhibits, or the written briefs.) The English language transcript fills twenty-three bound volumes and 11538 pages.

This transcript text was keyed in from the microfilm version of the trial transcript held by the National Archives (NARA), and then proofread and edited to conform to the text in the Harvard Law School Library Nuremberg collection. In particular, the pagination was adjusted when necessary to match the Harvard copy rather than the NARA copy when the two differed; therefore, document citations in the transcript will match the transcript citations in the analysis of the documents. In addition, many typographical errors have been corrected, using brackets when the error appeared in the original text. Although we have not attempted to correct factual errors in the text systematically, some have been corrected when both the error and the correction were obvious. The intended result is a clear text, but not a perfect one. Researchers who require the precise text of the National Archives copy, errors included, should consult the NARA microfilm."

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/NurTranscript/TranscriptSearches/tran_about.php

You are relying on testimony at the Nuremburg trials.  
I can elaborate, but my short answer reply to resorting to such evidence is that I have seen convincing evidence that the Nuremburg trials used methods including torture and threats to exact confessions which were false.  That would make it a model of tyranny for victors over weak and power uber alles which is exactly how capitalism has shaped post-war american society.  The weak are made to conform regardless of truth or inconvenient laws or traditions.

I will take a look at Eichmann's testimony as you suggest when I get the chance.
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« Reply #397 on: April 19, 2013, 11:42:04 PM »

'The Juggler' is my favorite Kirk Douglas movie of all time.
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« Reply #398 on: April 20, 2013, 04:16:20 AM »

If you have a source with no axe to grind that would be great.
Does quoting you qualify?
Answering me would suffice  Wink

Marxists are against the state of Israel. Some extreme right-wing Jews are too. Naturally enough they would want to come up for their own reasons for decrying the existence of Israel
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« Reply #399 on: April 20, 2013, 04:18:09 AM »

Marxists are in general anti-Israel - seeing it as a fascist extension of US capitalism; it's why 'traditionally' the Soviet Union was pro-Arab.
...
My communist friends are all dead-set pro-Palestinian
Although my sentiments are perhaps slightly more anarchist than Marxian, you can count me along with your communist friends on this one.

And thus an example of convergence. Both Marxists and neo-Nazis decry Israel. That they both dislike Israel is one thing. If some nut came along and said that they were working together, it would be highly suspect

Like claims Zionists and Nazis worked together
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« Reply #400 on: April 20, 2013, 04:21:09 AM »

You are relying on testimony at the Nuremburg trials.  
I can elaborate, but my short answer reply to resorting to such evidence is that I have seen convincing evidence that the Nuremburg trials used methods including torture and threats to exact confessions which were false.  That would make it a model of tyranny for victors over weak and power uber alles which is exactly how capitalism has shaped post-war american society.  The weak are made to conform regardless of truth or inconvenient laws or traditions.

I will take a look at Eichmann's testimony as you suggest when I get the chance.

When someone defends Nazis and saying they were weak, and in effect victimised, and then claims that they're not a Nazi apologist one can see two distinct claims at work.

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« Reply #401 on: April 20, 2013, 04:29:34 AM »

I would like to point out that this webpage is honoring Nazi collaborators.  

Anyone can be selective with facts.

I could, if I wished, point out that Oscar Schindler was a Nazi... as he was
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« Reply #402 on: April 20, 2013, 04:30:05 AM »

'The Juggler' is my favorite Kirk Douglas movie of all time.

Good for you. That must excuse your defence of evil then
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« Reply #403 on: April 20, 2013, 05:21:40 AM »

What about those that support the Nazis, but think that the whole Jew thing was somewhat misguided and really should not have happened, and if they would have been nice to the Jews everyone would be speaking German now?

What's the "Jew thing"?
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« Reply #404 on: April 20, 2013, 07:00:34 AM »

Marxists are in general anti-Israel - seeing it as a fascist extension of US capitalism; it's why 'traditionally' the Soviet Union was pro-Arab.
...
My communist friends are all dead-set pro-Palestinian
Although my sentiments are perhaps slightly more anarchist than Marxian, you can count me along with your communist friends on this one.

And thus an example of convergence. Both Marxists and neo-Nazis decry Israel. That they both dislike Israel is one thing. If some nut came along and said that they were working together, it would be highly suspect

Like claims Zionists and Nazis worked together
You're wrong about that.

NS Germans and Jewish Zionists were in effect Nationalists whose main concern were for  the betterment and defense of their ethnic, cultural and religious heritage and people, polar opposites of the borderless,atheist, raceless belief system of International Communism or what you would describe as "Marxism".

Nazi's and Zio-Nazi's have more in common than you would believe.
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