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Author Topic: Hitler's hate towards the Jews  (Read 10339 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #270 on: April 16, 2013, 04:59:46 AM »

Quote
You really have no clue what you are posting about.
I have a little bit, more than enough for this debate.

You simply can't label the Nazi's as "socialists" in the classic sense defined by their actions.

Myth: Hitler was a leftist.

Fact: Nearly all of Hitler's beliefs placed him on the far right.

Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.



http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm


Quote
I had greater history knowledge when I was 6.
What was that like a little more than a decade ago?

Have you ever read the original NSDAP program I quoted or was it to difficult for you to comprehend?

read the book and do some digging, all the experts who did any serious research come up with a few hundred thousand, your source for coming up with 6 million was a good one, I had a good laugh

I don't have to read books. I can ask my grandfather. There were several k of Jews in his village before the war. Only a handful survived it. Rest was killed by the Germans. He saw them being sent to Treblinka.

And to add to the figure, we could try my wife's home town, which contained several thousand Jews before WW2, most of whom were sent to the camps. As of the mid-90s there were six. I know one man who survived Auschwitz and I know several people who risked their lives to hide Jews during the war. That's one town to add to your one village and we're already well into the thousands. Given the size of the Reich and the Jewish population in the countries conquered by it, the idea of a few hundred thousand seems entirely ludicrous. What happened to the rest? Were they abducted by aliens?

James

I saw more than 20 years ago an interview with a young German Holocaust denier. He was, in the end asked "If these 6,000,000 Jews weren't killed, where are they now?"
He said "That's an interesting question"

But he left it at that.

Maybe aliens took 'em?
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« Reply #271 on: April 16, 2013, 09:09:23 AM »

Here is the list produced by Eichmann at the Wannsee Conference.  The Holocaust is one of the most well-documented genocides in history.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WannseeList.jpg


There are other sources as well.  Rudolf Vrba, for one, had eyewitness of incoming prisoners and access to the records.  His is the amount he calculated for one camp, the one in which he was interred.
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« Reply #272 on: April 16, 2013, 09:46:10 AM »

There had been 300 k Jews in Warsaw alone. It used to be world's second largest Jewish city (after NYC).
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« Reply #273 on: April 16, 2013, 06:04:01 PM »

Here is the list produced by Eichmann at the Wannsee Conference.  The Holocaust is one of the most well-documented genocides in history.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WannseeList.jpg


There are other sources as well.  Rudolf Vrba, for one, had eyewitness of incoming prisoners and access to the records.  His is the amount he calculated for one camp, the one in which he was interred.

I would just like to point out that that's a list of the population of Jews, not of how many were killed - because on the list are Portugal, Switzerland, Irland (Ireland) and, England - which weren't under occupation

However it still is evidence becase at the end of the war those nations with large Jewish populations (on the list) ceased to have those large populations. Pro-Nazis need to show where all those Jews went. Certainly not to Israel.


Interestingly they include on the list an ally not at war Spain. And, Turkey.


And it's true that it's very well documented. Nazis were falling over themselves to produce reports, figures, statistics, etc. to show how efficient they were in butchering people!

(They had the help of IBM card tabulating machines).
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« Reply #274 on: April 16, 2013, 07:48:39 PM »


how am i unwilling to answer your question, I believe a few hundred thousand , are you ok?
You were talking about what others believe. If you are saying you agree, then you've answered, after several days

Even here it's again a reference to some evidence somewhere else by someone else. What 'experts'? If they're the ones responsible for your book then they aren't experts on anything...

and you haven't done any real research and haven't addressed anything,

Your retort is simply a 'just-so' statement of denial. Let's pick one point - Zyklon B can't kill anyone. I addressed the fact it's an arsenic-based chemical.

I already addressed the issue of 6million, as well. It doesn't matter if estimates are at 5mil, and others at 6.2mil

And that's just the Jews, not the many non-Jews Germans systematically killed
no you haven't addressed anything, I gave you a video of a guy going through newspapers well before the war started about the 6 million jews...and what experts are you referring to, the nazi who claimed 6 million jews died?
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« Reply #275 on: April 16, 2013, 07:52:06 PM »

here's 1 of the experts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtOZSqvxK_A
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« Reply #276 on: April 16, 2013, 08:15:10 PM »

Frederick "Fred" A. Leuchter, the "expert" in the above video, was discredited around 20 years ago.  He is neither a chemist, an engineer nor trained in biology nor toxicology.
Here is a jumping off article for further information.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Leuchter
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« Reply #277 on: April 16, 2013, 08:16:24 PM »

no you haven't addressed anything, I gave you a video of a guy going through newspapers well before the war started about the 6 million jews...and what experts are you referring to, the nazi who claimed 6 million jews died?

I retorted points about your apologist book's claims re: Zyklon B, the use of the term "gas chambers", etc.

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« Reply #278 on: April 16, 2013, 08:21:10 PM »


I already addressed the argument re: Zyklon B several times.

To say in absolutist terms that Zyklon B is non-lethal is insane. One can even die of drinking too much water. Having something in the right (or rather, wrong) amount can be harmful.

Leaving aside the patently false absolute claim your book makes about Zyklon B, its function is to kill - to delouse. It therefore has a poisonous quality. It’s poisonous component is based on arsenic.

That’s just based on something called ‘logic’.

Then I cited Wiki directly addressing how it works as a poison.

You claim I’ve addressed NOTHING – which is another absurd absolute claim.
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« Reply #279 on: April 16, 2013, 08:22:51 PM »

Frederick "Fred" A. Leuchter, the "expert" in the above video, was discredited around 20 years ago.  He is neither a chemist, an engineer nor trained in biology nor toxicology.
Here is a jumping off article for further information.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Leuchter


Excellent!
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« Reply #280 on: April 16, 2013, 08:33:24 PM »

Frederick "Fred" A. Leuchter, the "expert" in the above video, was discredited around 20 years ago.  He is neither a chemist, an engineer nor trained in biology nor toxicology.
Here is a jumping off article for further information.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Leuchter

discredited by who, a mainstream media source? do you know who controls mainstream media?
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« Reply #281 on: April 16, 2013, 08:40:19 PM »

here's a good vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oinItLYg7qQ
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« Reply #282 on: April 16, 2013, 08:45:23 PM »

Frederick "Fred" A. Leuchter, the "expert" in the above video, was discredited around 20 years ago.  He is neither a chemist, an engineer nor trained in biology nor toxicology.
Here is a jumping off article for further information.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Leuchter

discredited by who, a mainstream media source? do you know who controls mainstream media?

By real chemists. 

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« Reply #283 on: April 16, 2013, 09:01:54 PM »

discredited by who, a mainstream media source? do you know who controls mainstream media?

Great example of circular logic!

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« Reply #284 on: April 16, 2013, 09:09:15 PM »


So, by your rationale youtube and wiki aren't mainstream

Sergey Brin, co-founder and CEO of Google - which owns Youtube, is Jewish!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin

By your logic you've just undermined your own sources!

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« Reply #285 on: April 16, 2013, 09:09:58 PM »


By real chemists. 



Apparently they're not vouched for by youtube!
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« Reply #286 on: April 16, 2013, 09:11:05 PM »

discredited by who, a mainstream media source? do you know who controls mainstream media?

Also, why not engage in the logic of Zyklon-B not being a poison!

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« Reply #287 on: April 16, 2013, 09:14:54 PM »

The True Torah Jews are just one end of the spectrum of a larger movement of Jews who oppose Zionism and the State of Israel.  See, for instance, this interview with a Holocaust survivor who equates the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel to the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsqj3HH4NVk

How is that a denial of Hitler's attempt at genoicide? If it isn't then it should be in a discussion thread about whether the state of Israel should exist.

That link was provided in response to your characterization of the "True Torah Jews" and their views as "radical" in that they are Jews against Zionism.  I provided the link just to illustrate that the "True Torah Jews" are just one of many Jewish groups who are against the Zionist State of Israel.  The applicability to the thread was demonstrated in the links from the "True Torah Jews" which explained how the Zionists were ultimately responsible for the holocaust, both "spiritually and physically".  So, when the OP asks why Hitler hated the Jews, the OP is asking about the origins of anti-Semitism in Germany and why so many Jews died at that time.  According to the True Torah Jews (and many others who have studied this history), Hitler's views and the deaths of so many Jews at that time was the direct result of the propaganda, policies, and influence of the Zionists who knew that 1) They would not be able to realize their goal of establishing a State of Israel if they could not somehow force Jews to move to Palestine; and 2) A great many Jews had no interest in moving to Palestine and would only do so if their living conditions in Europe became unbearably repressive and there was nowhere else for them to flee but to Palestine.   

Regarding Hitler and how he was basically put in power to serve the Zionist agenda, Jim Condit goes into considerable depth about the subject in this 2 hr and 22 min lecture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ5MeQnmLo0

The short video below is both humorous and sad in that it reflects the fact that the holocaust is unfortunately elevated to such a position in our society as if it were the only mass death or genocide that is of any historical significance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH4SifmKpf8&list=PL7A2597DA571F3528&index=28

Interestingly, I noticed when doing a Google search that when I entered the word "Jews" an advertisement appeared at the bottom of the screen entitled "Offensive Search Results" with a URL www.google.com/explanation.  The title of the advertisement, as well as the URL, are very general and so I assumed that selecting this link would take me to a very general page about "Offensive Search Results".  Perhaps it would explain how results appear when one searches for certain terms, or perhaps it would explain how Google is not allowed to filter out offensive material due to freedom of speech.  To my surprise, however, this page begins with the following text:

Quote
If you recently used Google to search for the word “Jew,” you may have seen results that were very disturbing. We assure you that the views expressed by the sites in your results are not in any way endorsed by Google

It is fascinating that this special page was created solely out of concern for offending Jews and Google does not seem to have the same concern for any other people group.  You can literally enter into Google any other racial slur and no such link will appear.  This is a reflection of how highly Jews are regarded in society as if the death of a Jew is so much more tragic than the death of any other race, or as though offending a Jew is so much more serious than offending any other people group.  This is all the more interesting in the context of the claim of the "True Torah Jews" that it was really one group of Jews (Zionists) who were responsible for the death of another group of Jews.   
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 09:16:50 PM by jah777 » Logged
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« Reply #288 on: April 16, 2013, 09:26:03 PM »

That link was provided in response to your characterization of the "True Torah Jews" and their views as "radical" in that they are Jews against Zionism.  I provided the link just to illustrate that the "True Torah Jews" are just one of many Jewish groups who are against the Zionist State of Israel.  
Let's get this right:

You state this group is against Zionism

I ask what's this got to do with the thread?

You reply that it was a response to say that they're a group against Zionism

 Huh

The applicability to the thread was demonstrated in the links from the "True Torah Jews" which explained how the Zionists were ultimately responsible for the holocaust, both "spiritually and physically".  So, when the OP asks why Hitler hated the Jews, the OP is asking about the origins of anti-Semitism in Germany and why so many Jews died at that time.  
So the Jews are responsible for Hitler's hatred of the Jews?

According to the True Torah Jews (and many others who have studied this history), Hitler's views and the deaths of so many Jews at that time was the direct result of the propaganda, policies, and influence of the Zionists who knew that 1) They would not be able to realize their goal of establishing a State of Israel if they could not somehow force Jews to move to Palestine; and 2) A great many Jews had no interest in moving to Palestine and would only do so if their living conditions in Europe became unbearably repressive and there was nowhere else for them to flee but to Palestine.    
SO the Jews didn't really want to flee to Palestine, so Hitler killed them?!  Huh


Regarding Hitler and how he was basically put in power to serve the Zionist agenda, Jim Condit goes into considerable depth about the subject in this 2 hr and 22 min lecture:
So the Jews put Hitler in power to kill them!?  Huh
It is fascinating that this special page was created solely out of concern for offending Jews and Google does not seem to have the same concern for any other people group.  You can literally enter into Google any other racial slur and no such link will appear.  This is a reflection of how highly Jews are regarded in society as if the death of a Jew is so much more tragic than the death of any other race, or as though offending a Jew is so much more serious than offending any other people group.  This is all the more interesting in the context of the claim of the "True Torah Jews" that it was really one group of Jews (Zionists) who were responsible for the death of another group of Jews.    

How are you aware that Google doesn't have such a page for any other group?


It seems:
Jews who wanted other Jews to go to Palestine put Hitler into power, but Hitler hated them for it and murdered millions of them



« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 09:27:31 PM by montalban » Logged

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« Reply #289 on: April 16, 2013, 09:43:03 PM »

That link was provided in response to your characterization of the "True Torah Jews" and their views as "radical" in that they are Jews against Zionism.  I provided the link just to illustrate that the "True Torah Jews" are just one of many Jewish groups who are against the Zionist State of Israel.  
Let's get this right:

You state this group is against Zionism

I ask what's this got to do with the thread?

You reply that it was a response to say that they're a group against Zionism

 Huh

The applicability to the thread was demonstrated in the links from the "True Torah Jews" which explained how the Zionists were ultimately responsible for the holocaust, both "spiritually and physically".  So, when the OP asks why Hitler hated the Jews, the OP is asking about the origins of anti-Semitism in Germany and why so many Jews died at that time.  
So the Jews are responsible for Hitler's hatred of the Jews?

According to the True Torah Jews (and many others who have studied this history), Hitler's views and the deaths of so many Jews at that time was the direct result of the propaganda, policies, and influence of the Zionists who knew that 1) They would not be able to realize their goal of establishing a State of Israel if they could not somehow force Jews to move to Palestine; and 2) A great many Jews had no interest in moving to Palestine and would only do so if their living conditions in Europe became unbearably repressive and there was nowhere else for them to flee but to Palestine.    
SO the Jews didn't really want to flee to Palestine, so Hitler killed them?!  Huh


Regarding Hitler and how he was basically put in power to serve the Zionist agenda, Jim Condit goes into considerable depth about the subject in this 2 hr and 22 min lecture:
So the Jews put Hitler in power to kill them!?  Huh
It is fascinating that this special page was created solely out of concern for offending Jews and Google does not seem to have the same concern for any other people group.  You can literally enter into Google any other racial slur and no such link will appear.  This is a reflection of how highly Jews are regarded in society as if the death of a Jew is so much more tragic than the death of any other race, or as though offending a Jew is so much more serious than offending any other people group.  This is all the more interesting in the context of the claim of the "True Torah Jews" that it was really one group of Jews (Zionists) who were responsible for the death of another group of Jews.    

How are you aware that Google doesn't have such a page for any other group?


It seems:
Jews who wanted other Jews to go to Palestine put Hitler into power, but Hitler hated them for it and murdered millions of them

I have provided links that address your questions above.  To flesh it all out here would take up much time and space.  Regarding Google's ad and "explanation" page, the very general title of the web page and very general URL are a strong indication that Google has only one such page and it is solely out of concern for offending Jews and no other people group.  As a test, I admit that I did enter several racial slurs into Google to see if a similar ad would appear.  Nothing appeared.  I didn't enter every possible racial slur, but I didn't need to.  Google will show you all kinds of offensive material about every race and people, but for some reason when it comes to the Jews, their consciences are troubled?  Huh
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« Reply #290 on: April 16, 2013, 11:24:40 PM »

I have provided links that address your questions above.  To flesh it all out here would take up much time and space. 
You don't need to expand their points (flesh out). You need to show why such nonsensical material is taken seriously (by you).

It makes no sense to argue "Hitler hated the Jews because they installed him as part of a Jewish conspiracy."

I would strongly urge you to re-read that proposition in the context of the lunacy it was written. Hitler hated the Jews BEFORE he came to power. He wrote about them BEFORE he came to power.


Regarding Google's ad and "explanation" page, the very general title of the web page and very general URL are a strong indication that Google has only one such page and it is solely out of concern for offending Jews and no other people group.  As a test, I admit that I did enter several racial slurs into Google to see if a similar ad would appear.  Nothing appeared.  I didn't enter every possible racial slur, but I didn't need to.  Google will show you all kinds of offensive material about every race and people, but for some reason when it comes to the Jews, their consciences are troubled?  Huh

I searched by the same term and got no such resulting warning at all.

At the bottom of that page was Searches related to Jew

I clicked on racist jew jokes and still got no warning.

I don't what you think it proves anyway.

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« Reply #291 on: April 16, 2013, 11:53:56 PM »

Here is the list produced by Eichmann at the Wannsee Conference.  The Holocaust is one of the most well-documented genocides in history.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WannseeList.jpg


There are other sources as well.  Rudolf Vrba, for one, had eyewitness of incoming prisoners and access to the records.  His is the amount he calculated for one camp, the one in which he was interred.

I would just like to point out that that's a list of the population of Jews, not of how many were killed - because on the list are Portugal, Switzerland, Irland (Ireland) and, England - which weren't under occupation

However it still is evidence becase at the end of the war those nations with large Jewish populations (on the list) ceased to have those large populations. Pro-Nazis need to show where all those Jews went. Certainly not to Israel.


Interestingly they include on the list an ally not at war Spain. And, Turkey.


And it's true that it's very well documented. Nazis were falling over themselves to produce reports, figures, statistics, etc. to show how efficient they were in butchering people!

(They had the help of IBM card tabulating machines).

Thanks montalban for expanding on and clarifying that.  I sort of just posted it in there in a rush this morning on my way out the door.
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« Reply #292 on: April 17, 2013, 12:08:58 AM »


Thanks montalban for expanding on and clarifying that.  I sort of just posted it in there in a rush this morning on my way out the door.

No problems. The Germans were very keen on collecting data.

Even in the Channel Islands, the only part of King George VI's realm to be occupied by the Germans, they took Jews away

There were hardly any Jews there to begin with...

The number of Jews who remained in the Islands during the Occupation is estimated at between 30 and 50, of whom 18 registered themselves as Jews The registered Jews in the Islands, often Church of England members with one or two Jewish grandparents, were subjected to the nine Orders Pertaining to Measures Against the Jews, including closing their businesses (or placing them under Aryan administration)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands

Jersey Jews and 22 Jersey islanders died in concentration camps (Ibid.)

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« Reply #293 on: April 17, 2013, 01:43:12 PM »

What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them?

In my opinion,  Hitler's underlying motivation was a misguided interpretation of the bible to restore the jews to the Holy Land - which he unfortunately achieved.  His viewpoint was misguided because it spurns the traditional understanding common to both jews and Christians that the jewish diaspora was created by God out of his displeasure with the jews.  This misinterpretation of the bible is common to many modern jews and evangelical protestants (both of which are pro-jewish) as well as Nazism (which is anti-jewish).  The main thrust of zionism harmonized with Nazism.  Nazi pamphleteer Julius Streicher, for example, wrote in his anti-jewish comic book that the jews should be forced out of europe and suggested they be given their own homeland.  This Nazi attitude was essentially as zionist as that of Chaim Weizmann, and both attitudes went against the traditional assimilationist beliefs and lifestyles of the majority of jews.

I believe that one can be simultaneously pro-jewish and anti-zionist or non-zionist.  I believe that jews will be restored to the Holy Land one day in God's way, but there is a proper season for everything - especially considering that the reason for their expulsion is still valid.
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« Reply #294 on: April 17, 2013, 02:30:11 PM »

Hitler's underlying motivation was a misguided interpretation of the bible to restore the jews to the Holy Land - which he unfortunately achieved.

Hitler was interested in the jews from youth because he was himself a jew as well informed scholars allude such as
'Inside the Gestapo' by Hansjurgen Koehler
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Gestapo-Hitlers-Shadow-World/dp/0930852397

This book from 1940 was written by a Gestapo agent (who later defected to the British and told his story) assigned to steal a blackmail file on Hitler in the posession of the Austrian chancellor Schuschnigg who was using it to postpone the Nazi annexation of Austria.  The file was obtained from the previous Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss whom the Gestapo had assassinated but whom had used his position to collect information about Hitler's ancestry including the identity of his biological paternal grandfather who is not listed on Hitler's dad's (Alois Hitler, Sr. but born Alois Schicklegruber) birth certificate, and Hitler, Sr's mom was in fact working as a maid in the Rothschild Vienna mansion at the time she was impregnated.  
 
'Adolf Hitler: Founder of Israel'
http://holywar.org/txt/founder_of_Israel.pdf
 
It seems a number of the more well informed older books make this contention.  
Kudos to jewish scholar Bryan Mark Rigg for making this known in the more recent 'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers'.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

-------------------------------------------------

The Nazis had a pact with the zionists from 1934 onwards which facilitated jewish immigration to Palestine.  
Two jewish writers have addressed this from different perspectives:
1) 'The Transfer Agreement' by Edwin Black
(a pro-Israeli conservative who has written other worthwhile books including 'IBM and the Holocaust' and 'War on the Weak')
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE2hsaHAEX0
and
2) 'Zionism in the Age of Dictators' by Lenni Brenner
(a leftist jewish critic of Israel)
http://archive.org/details/ZionismInTheAgeOfTheDictators

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« Reply #295 on: April 17, 2013, 02:56:18 PM »

Gustav Weler

Gustav Weler was a distant cousin of Adolf Hitler who came to the notice of Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller as an almost identical double of his famous cousin.  Mueller had Gustav Weler replace Adolf Hitler in the Wolf's Lair bunker in late April 1945.  Subsequent events such as the wedding were a sham using doubles, and Mueller drugged Weler and shot him in the forehead one day before the Russians arrived.  The Russians found the body of Gustav Weler, Hitler'a double in the bunker.  

Russian Army in Hitler bunker early May 1945 standing over body of Gustav Weler (Hitler double)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHA8wnuUaQQ

-----------------------------------------

In 1941 Gestapo chief Heinrich Mueller was informed by the local Gestapo duty station in Breslau that a man who worked in a printing plant there was almost an exact double of Adolf Hitler. He had them photograph him and after seeing the pictures acknowledged that the resemblance was remarkable. He was younger and a little shorter than Hitler. His hair was cut differently and he had no moustache. He smoked and was a bit fatter than Hitler. The man was born in the Waldviertel district of Austria and was a distant relative of Hitler. Actually, a number of people from that area bore some resemblance to Hitler. This man's family had moved north of Prague.
At first, Hitler did not want any part of this, especially when he learned that the man was his distant relative as Hitler was very severe about anyone interviewing one of his relatives. However, Mueller eventually convinced Hitler of the security value of having a double. Ultimately, the man was only used for a few very brief appearances after the 20 July 1944 bomb attempt and during the final week of April 1945 in the bunker. He only met Hitler twice in a secure office across the street from the Reichschancellery in order for him to learn to impersonate certain petty details which could only be acquired from an up close encounter such as where Hitler held his hand when he signed a letter, certain phrases Hitler customarily used when he talked, et cetera. Hitler remarked to Muller that meeting this man was like looking into a mirror.
The double was given extra heel supports in his shoes, made quit smoking and lose weight. The double was furnished with a set of Adolf Hitler's uniforms manufactured by the same tailor. Of course, the tailor never met or even knew of the existence of this man as it was a state secret. Only Muller, Hitler and a few others ever knew about this. The only members of Hitler's inner circle who knew were his longtime personal valet Heinz Linge and Johann Rattenhuber who was the chief of Hitler's personal security. According to Muller, Hitler's military adjutant Otto Gunsche probably figured this business out as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Linge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Rattenhuber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_G%C3%BCnsche

-----------------------------------------------------

The Flight of the Wolf

(The following interview of former Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller by a CIA official in September & October of 1948 in Switzerland is taken from:
'Gestapo Chief: The 1948 Interrogation of Heinrich Muller, Volume 1'
According to the interview published in this book, Mueller became a personal friend of President Harry Truman and constructed CIA domestic dossier systems based on Gestapo models and provided the CIA with much of its initial foreign policy perspective and knowledge.


Mueller - There existed two ways in and out of the bunker complex. One is through the Chancellery and the other is an emergency exit into the Chancellery garden. Located at a lower level than the upper bunker, Hitler's personal quarters alone contained an emergency exit to the garden. Hitler got everyone used to his going upstairs with his dog for a walk in the garden at night. Usually, the garden was heavily guarded with dogs and floodlights, but when Hitler went up for his brief walks the lights were dimmed and the security dogs removed. Sometimes Hitler would come up with Linge and sometimes alone. Rattenhuber who was the head of all these security operations was also privy to the business about the double.

...

American Interrogator - When was the last time you saw Hitler alive during the month of April, 1945 and where did you see him?

Mueller - On the 22nd of April in the evening, about 2030 hours. I last saw him in the garden of the Chancellery.

American Interrogator - Did...was he alive at the time?

Mueller - He was quite alive.

American Interrogator - You spoke with him then?

Mueller - I did.

American Interrogator - Were ther any other people present at that time?

Mueller - Yes, Linge his valet was there and Rattenhuber came a little later on.

American Interrogator - Was there anyone else with Hitler when you last saw him?

Mueller - His shepherd. That's all. He had his dog on a leash. At that time, he was supposed to be walking his dog in the garden.

American Interrogator - Did you speak with him at that time?

Mueller - Yes, or rather he spoke with me.

American Interrogator - Could you tell me what he said at that time?

Mueller - Yes. He shook my hand warmly and thanked me from his heart for all i had done for him and the country. He hoped that I would see him soon and he wished my family to be safe from harm. He handed...no, he had Linge hand me a leather briefcase and he told me...that is Hitler told me...that this was all he could do for me now and then he shook my hand again, this time with tears in eyes.

American Interrogator - And what did he do then? After he gave you the briefcase?

Mueller - Yes...well now...he walked away with Linge and his dog and I did not see him again. A little while later Linge came back to where I was waiting and I remember he too was weeping.

American Interrogator - Did Linge say anything?

Mueller - Yes. He said, "The Chief is gone. I will never see him again."

American Interrogator - By "gone" did he mean Hitler was dead? That he killed him for example?

Mueller - No, we both knew what Linge meant. He said that Hitler had left, and he would never see him again. Not dead, just left.

American Interrogator - I see. You are positive of this?

Mueller - Absolutely. If you wish me to be specific, Hitler left Berlin, alive on the 22nd of April, the year 1945.

American Interrogator - You...Rattenhuber was mentioned. You said a few moments ago that he came along to where you were. Is that correct?

Mueller - He did.

American Interrogator - Was Linge still there?

Mueller - Yes. He was very upset at the time.

American Interrogator - Did Rattenhuber know about this...departure?

Mueller - Of course he did.

American Interrogator - And he came up to you in the Chancellery garden then. Did he say anything about Hitler?

Mueller - Yes. He said, "The Chief is gone, but now we have a new Chief."

American Interrogator - A new Chief? Was he speaking of Hitler?

Mueller - He was speaking about the new Chief.

American Interrogator - Do you mean Martin Bormann?

Mueller - No. I mean that we had a new Hitler.

American Interrogator - What is that?

Mueller - He came with Rattenhuber. A new Hitler.

American Interrogator - You do not grasp what I am asking you. Who was the new Chief, who replaced Hitler that night?

Mueller - His double.

American Interrogator - We have heard rumors about a double before. The Soviets have claimed a double might have been used. Are you certain about this?

Mueller - Yes.

-------------------------------

Mueller - ...It was a very simple matter for Hitler to come up at night for his walk, with Linge or alone. He left through another exit from the garden and the double went back down into the bunker with another sheepdog from the kennels. All of this happened in my presence so I can assure you that I am not guessing about it. We kept the double out of view as much as we could. There were a number of visits from people really not close to Hitler, but as few as possible. Goebbels and Linge were the best help in this matter. I remember Bormann saying to me in a very worried manner, "The Chief looks very different, Mueller. Do you think he might have had some kind of a stroke?" I said I didn't think so.

---------------------------------

American Interrogator - ...Let us get back to the matter of the double. The Russians found him dead in the garden, buried in the ground as we know. Excellent. Now how did he come to be underground?

Mueller - Obviously he was dead.

American Interrogator - I'm aware of that. How did he come to die?

Mueller - You read the Russian reports. He was shot once in the head with a small calbre pistol.

American Interrogator - Did he shoot himself?

Mueller - No, he did not.

American Interrogator - Who shot him then?

Mueller - I cannot remember. It was such a confusing time after all.

American Interrogator - But you knew he was shot?

Mueller - Of course. I helped bury him. That was a dangerous thing, trying to bury him. The Russians were shelling everything and you never knew when a few shells might land on top of you.

American Interrogator - Was he expecting to be shot?

Mueller - Probably not. I think he felt he might leave Berlin as some sort of a false trail.

American Interrogator - Did you mislead him?

Mueller - I discussed matters with him and put things in a light to ease his worries. Put it that way if you will. He was drugged at the time he died in any case. If he had been captured alive, there would have been serious problems as you can imagine.

-------------------------------------------------------------

In 'The Warplanes of the Third Reich' by William Green (1972) on page 508:

"The sole Ju290 A-6 was initially conceived as a pressurized personnel transport for Hitler's personal flight. Some pressurization trials were conducted at Prague but this scheme was abandoned at an early stage, and the aircraft was completed as an unpressurized 50-passenger transport. This aircraft was eventually taken on the strength of I./KG 200 at Finsterwalde for special transport operations, and in the last week of April 1945, was flown to Barcelona by Hauptmann Braun, the original Staffelkapitan of LTS 290 who subsequently served with FAGr 5, and with the disbandment of that Gruppe, joined Kampfgeschwader 200.
The I/KG 200 was largely responsible for the transportation of escaping NAzi leaders, and the identity of the passengers ferried to Barcelona aboard the Ju290 A-6 is open to conjecture."

-------------------------------

On 27 April 1945, a Junkers Ju 290 A-6 arrived at Barcelona, Spain.

"One Ju-290A-6 was built and used as a fifty-seat transport in the Führer-Kurrierstaffel, Hitler's private transport unit commanded by Flugkapitän Heinz Baur. It was finally scrapped in Spain in the mid-1950s due to lack of spares."
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_ju290.html

Special features of the Fuehrertransport:

- an armored ejection seat with built-in parachute and 13mm steel on all sides designed to fall free by operation of an ejection handle. Successfully tested with dummies.

- All windows constructed of 50mm thick bulletproof glass.

- area where Hitler sat protected by additional armor on roof, floor , and sides of fuselage

This palne was scrapped by the Spanish in 1956, but Hitler's armored chair still exists.

-----------------------------------
OSS Telegram From Agent Molden 8 March 1945

Telegram 6487, Document 5-55 / 8 March 1945

"Source K-28, report B-1839. In Pocking, lower Bavaria near Braunnau between Zeithen and Schoenberg, recognizable by two hangers and large runways is located part of "Fleiger Staffel Adolf Hitler." Work going on actively in hangars. There is one 4-motored JU 290 being luxuriously equipped with armored plates, bulletproof glass, guns fore and aft, etc. Capacity 20-22 perons. Delivery originally fixed for February 28 for Berchtesgaden now postponed to middle March. Hitler greatly disturbed over delay. Original plan called for three machines but, on account of material shortage, only one built. General Bauer, air pilot of Fuehrer, personally supervising reconstruction together with assembly man Zintel. Bauer also practicing handling of airplane."

----------------------------------------------------------------

British Promotion of the Gestapo's Suicide Propaganda

Since Hitler had to maintain a low profile much like George Bush, he and Heinrich Mueller probably appreciated the publicity given to the suicide theory by British intelligence. As the Russians had complete control of the Chancellery area, the British MI6 sent their own man to do a report. They sent a young Oxford student who could not read, write, or speak German. His name was Hugh Trevor-Roper. Roper's report was later made into a book entitled 'The Last Days of Hitler' which became the standard account of the last days of Hitler and constitutes the foundation of Trevor-Roper's fame. This book contains many outright lies such as an interview with an alleged SS member of the Reichschancellery security detail by the name of Herman Karnau who claimed he saw Hitler's body burning. It has been shown that the Reichschancellery employed no one by that name and even searches of the SS personnel files did not include the name of this fictitious person. Roper-doper also invented Erich Mansfeld out of nothingness, and attributed statements to Hitler's valet Heinz Linge although Linge was unavailable to Trevor-Roper since he was already in a Soviet prison.

The bad publicity which the MI6 agent Trevor-Roper famously received in the early 1980's for his endorsement of the phony 'Hitler Diaries' was long overdue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Diaries

Searching For the Truth
Germar Rudolf's investigation into the controversy between David Irving and Gregory Douglas
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/StahlDouglas.html  
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« Reply #296 on: April 17, 2013, 03:32:58 PM »

Heinrich Mueller

He became chief of the Gestapo, the political secret state police of Nazi Germany ...  He was last seen in the Führerbunker in Berlin on 1 May 1945 and remains the most senior figure of the Nazi regime who was never captured or confirmed to have died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_M%C3%BCller_(Gestapo)
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« Reply #297 on: April 17, 2013, 03:37:37 PM »

May 3, 1945. Pravda: “Hitler not in Berlin.”

May 13, 1945. Pravda: “Moscow has directed the senior officers of the Red Army in Berlin to discuss nothing about the situation in the Führerbunker.”

May 26, 1945. Josef Stalin to Harry Hopkins in Moscow: “In my opinion Hitler is not dead but is hiding somewhere.”

June 6, 1945, Red Army spokesman from Marshal Zhukov’s staff: “Hitler’s body has been found and identified.”

June 9, 1945. Marshal Zhukov, accompanied by Andre Vishinski, Deputy Foreign Minister and General N. Bezarin, Soviet military commandant of Berlin, held a press conference for Western journalists. Zhukov stated that “Hitler’s fate was doubtful” and that “we did not identify the body of Hitler. I can say nothing definite about his fate. He could have flown away from Berlin at the very last moments.”


To this, General Bezarin added that in his personal opinion, “he has disappeared somewhere in Europe. Perhaps he is in Spain with Franco. He had the possibility of taking off and getting away.” 
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« Reply #298 on: April 17, 2013, 03:50:18 PM »

In my opinion, the political right in Britian and America (Henry Ford, Morgan, the Bush family) financed and used Nazism as a battering ram to smash Soviet Russia.  When ths failed, it salvaged its Nazi allies through programs like Project Paperclip and salvaging things like Japanese Unit 731.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
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« Reply #299 on: April 17, 2013, 05:27:40 PM »


So, by your rationale youtube and wiki aren't mainstream

Sergey Brin, co-founder and CEO of Google - which owns Youtube, is Jewish!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin

By your logic you've just undermined your own sources!


you don't know what you are talking about, do I have really to teach you about what's the mainstream media? I'll address your poison when you address the fact that 6 million jews was in the papers long before the war
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« Reply #300 on: April 17, 2013, 06:10:04 PM »

What caused Hitler's hate towards the Jews than he wondered around to kill 5+ millions of them?

In my opinion,  Hitler's underlying motivation was a misguided interpretation of the bible to restore the jews to the Holy Land - which he unfortunately achieved.  His viewpoint was misguided because it spurns the traditional understanding common to both jews and Christians that the jewish diaspora was created by God out of his displeasure with the jews.  This misinterpretation of the bible is common to many modern jews and evangelical protestants (both of which are pro-jewish) as well as Nazism (which is anti-jewish).  The main thrust of zionism harmonized with Nazism.  Nazi pamphleteer Julius Streicher, for example, wrote in his anti-jewish comic book that the jews should be forced out of europe and suggested they be given their own homeland.  This Nazi attitude was essentially as zionist as that of Chaim Weizmann, and both attitudes went against the traditional assimilationist beliefs and lifestyles of the majority of jews.

I believe that one can be simultaneously pro-jewish and anti-zionist or non-zionist.  I believe that jews will be restored to the Holy Land one day in God's way, but there is a proper season for everything - especially considering that the reason for their expulsion is still valid.

So he murdered Jews to restore them to the promised land?
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« Reply #301 on: April 17, 2013, 06:10:45 PM »

Heinrich Mueller

He became chief of the Gestapo, the political secret state police of Nazi Germany ...  He was last seen in the Führerbunker in Berlin on 1 May 1945 and remains the most senior figure of the Nazi regime who was never captured or confirmed to have died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_M%C3%BCller_(Gestapo)

That's false. The most senior Nazi to be captured was Goering.

You should check your wiki link too, because it doesn't state what you have in your post
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« Reply #302 on: April 17, 2013, 06:13:41 PM »

Hitler's underlying motivation was a misguided interpretation of the bible to restore the jews to the Holy Land - which he unfortunately achieved.

You're spouting the same nonsense that jah777 is spouting!

Hitler hated the Jews. He didn't want them specifically returned to the Holy Land

Also, why weren't the Zionists working with other nations to have the Jews expelled there? Poland had more Jews.

It's such a silly idea spouted by people against Israel.

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« Reply #303 on: April 17, 2013, 06:16:14 PM »

you don't know what you are talking about, do I have really to teach you about what's the mainstream media?
I don't count Youtube as 'mainstream media' because it's only a service that provides videos. However it's arguably run by Jews! So you're undermining your own sources

I don't count it as the 'media' at all. You do.


 I'll address your poison when you address the fact that 6 million jews was in the papers long before the war
That doesn't even make sense!
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« Reply #304 on: April 17, 2013, 06:18:24 PM »

Gustav Weler

Gustav Weler was a distant cousin of Adolf Hitler who came to the notice of Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller as an almost identical double of his famous cousin.  Mueller had Gustav Weler replace Adolf Hitler in the Wolf's Lair bunker in late April 1945.  Subsequent events such as the wedding were a sham using doubles, and Mueller drugged Weler and shot him in the forehead one day before the Russians arrived.  The Russians found the body of Gustav Weler, Hitler'a double in the bunker.  

What has this got to do with anything?
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« Reply #305 on: April 17, 2013, 06:27:36 PM »


It seems a number of the more well informed older books make this contention.  
Kudos to jewish scholar Bryan Mark Rigg for making this known in the more recent 'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers'.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html


What is the relevence of a book about people who weren't strictly speaking "Jewish" (only having in many cases a single grand-parent who was a Jew) who joined the army to further prove their Aryanness?
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« Reply #306 on: April 17, 2013, 07:26:49 PM »

There were some collaborators, yes. It can be argued they were pressured into it, frightened, made a horrible mistake...

Silly people think this 'proves' something.   Tongue
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« Reply #307 on: April 17, 2013, 07:57:41 PM »

you don't know what you are talking about, do I have really to teach you about what's the mainstream media?
I don't count Youtube as 'mainstream media' because it's only a service that provides videos. However it's arguably run by Jews! So you're undermining your own sources

I don't count it as the 'media' at all. You do.


 I'll address your poison when you address the fact that 6 million jews was in the papers long before the war
That doesn't even make sense!

what doesn't make sense is someone who reads the newspaper stories that were decades before the war started that mentioned how 6 million jews were being persecuted yada yada , and just accepts  that 6 million jews just happened to be the number that perished under the nazis, you can't be that naive
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« Reply #308 on: April 17, 2013, 08:50:25 PM »

Heinrich Mueller
...
remains the most senior figure of the Nazi regime who was never captured or confirmed to have died.

That's false. The most senior Nazi to be captured was Goering.

I beg your pardon. 
The statement I quoted above explicitly refers to senior Nazis who were never captured. 
Since Goering was captured, then what does he have to do with the price of tea in China? 

Heinrich Mueller was the most senior Nazi whose ultimate whereabouts are officially unaccounted for.
Goering is irrelevant since we know he was captured and executed.

If you can explain that to be false, then I am all ears.
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« Reply #309 on: April 17, 2013, 08:55:02 PM »

There were some collaborators, yes. It can be argued they were pressured into it, frightened, made a horrible mistake...

Silly people think this 'proves' something.   Tongue

Indeed! Exceptions don't make rules.

It makes no sense to say that Jews put Hitler into power and that's why he hated them.

He hated them before he got into power

He would accept support from Jews
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« Reply #310 on: April 17, 2013, 08:56:27 PM »


It seems a number of the more well informed older books make this contention.  
Kudos to jewish scholar Bryan Mark Rigg for making this known in the more recent 'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers'.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

What is the relevence of a book about people who weren't strictly speaking "Jewish" (only having in many cases a single grand-parent who was a Jew) who joined the army to further prove their Aryanness?

To answer your question, it has a section that discusses some sources on Hitler's jewish genealogy which is the context in which I mentioned it.
To be fair, he mentions these along with some relevant material about the sources which may assist the reader in assessing those sources, but Rigg refrains from taking a position on it one way or the other himself.  I would say he wrote about that rather objectively and informatively.
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« Reply #311 on: April 17, 2013, 08:59:42 PM »

I beg your pardon. 
The statement I quoted above explicitly refers to senior Nazis who were never captured. 
Since Goering was captured, then what does he have to do with the price of tea in China? 

Heinrich Mueller was the most senior Nazi whose ultimate whereabouts are officially unaccounted for.
Goering is irrelevant since we know he was captured and executed.

If you can explain that to be false, then I am all ears.
You are correct that you said "Never". I missed that.

I don't know what Heinrich Mueller has to do with anything, anyway

Thanks for ignoring everything else I wrote
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« Reply #312 on: April 17, 2013, 09:01:56 PM »

Gustav Weler

Gustav Weler was a distant cousin of Adolf Hitler who came to the notice of Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller as an almost identical double of his famous cousin.  Mueller had Gustav Weler replace Adolf Hitler in the Wolf's Lair bunker in late April 1945.  Subsequent events such as the wedding were a sham using doubles, and Mueller drugged Weler and shot him in the forehead one day before the Russians arrived.  The Russians found the body of Gustav Weler, Hitler's double in the bunker.  
What has this got to do with anything?

It is a factor directly tied to Hitler's personal post-WWII survival since the presence of Gustav Weler in the bunker enabled him to leave Germany unnoticed a couple of weeks before the Russians arrived.
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« Reply #313 on: April 17, 2013, 09:02:18 PM »


It seems a number of the more well informed older books make this contention.  
Kudos to jewish scholar Bryan Mark Rigg for making this known in the more recent 'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers'.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

What is the relevence of a book about people who weren't strictly speaking "Jewish" (only having in many cases a single grand-parent who was a Jew) who joined the army to further prove their Aryanness?

To answer your question, it has a section that discusses some sources on Hitler's jewish genealogy which is the context in which I mentioned it.
To be fair, he mentions these along with some relevant material about the sources which may assist the reader in assessing those sources, but Rigg refrains from taking a position on it one way or the other himself.  I would say he wrote about that rather objectively and informatively.

So Hitler was a Jew, who hated Jews!

I'm not questioning Rigg, by the way. I'm questioning your use of him as a source in what seems to be an exercise in no-relevence.

That Hitler used Germans of 'Jewish' background has nothing to do with the subject.

If they were Jews, and he hated Jews, then you've only created more problems than solved by trying to introduce this work into this discussion.
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« Reply #314 on: April 17, 2013, 09:03:05 PM »

Gustav Weler

Gustav Weler was a distant cousin of Adolf Hitler who came to the notice of Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller as an almost identical double of his famous cousin.  Mueller had Gustav Weler replace Adolf Hitler in the Wolf's Lair bunker in late April 1945.  Subsequent events such as the wedding were a sham using doubles, and Mueller drugged Weler and shot him in the forehead one day before the Russians arrived.  The Russians found the body of Gustav Weler, Hitler's double in the bunker.  
What has this got to do with anything?

It is a factor directly tied to Hitler's personal post-WWII survival since the presence of Gustav Weler in the bunker enabled him to leave Germany unnoticed a couple of weeks before the Russians arrived.

Sigh.

What has Hitler's supposed survival got to do with his hatred of the Jews?

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