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Author Topic: Finnish Orthodox priest defrocked after remarrying  (Read 1252 times) Average Rating: 0
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Orest
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« on: March 27, 2013, 01:47:18 PM »

http://yle.fi/uutiset/orthodox_priest_defrocked_after_remarrying/6556997

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A former Orthodox minister has lodged a complaint with the Parliamentary Ombudsman, challenging the Orthodox church’s laws of celibacy. Kuisma Suopela filed the complaint after he was defrocked as deacon of the Oulu diocese when he married for a second time.
At the end of 2012 a bishop’s conference removed Suopela’s minister’s rights and demoted him to the level of a layman. The caucus deemed that according to the church’s celibacy laws, the widower priest should have lived a life of celibacy, rather than remarry.
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2013, 01:51:24 PM »

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A former Orthodox minister has lodged a complaint with the Parliamentary Ombudsman

No facepalm is going to adequately express my feelings on this.
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2013, 03:25:11 PM »

I'm really interested in the denouement. Is this a big case in there?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 03:28:27 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 03:39:27 PM »

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serb1389
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2013, 04:52:46 PM »

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A former Orthodox minister has lodged a complaint with the Parliamentary Ombudsman

No facepalm is going to adequately express my feelings on this.

I for one would appreciate your take on this. 
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 04:54:17 PM »

Under Finnish Law, does this man have a case?
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2013, 04:57:55 PM »

Under Finnish Law, does this man have a case?

Isn't Finnish law the reason they celebrate Pascha on the western calculation? So, perhaps Finnish courts might hear his claim?
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Alpo
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2013, 05:17:56 PM »

Under Finnish Law, does this man have a case?

Isn't Finnish law the reason they celebrate Pascha on the western calculation? So, perhaps Finnish courts might hear his claim?

I don't know where people get this idea but AFAIK there is no such law.

I'm not a lawyer but I highly doubt this leads into anything. Every Finnish candidate for priesthood is aware of the fact that priests' divorce and remarriage are discouraged so he was quite aware of the normal procedure when he accepted the ordination. There is a law that states that "The Finnish Orthodox Church is based on the Bible, Tradition, dogmas, canons and other ecclesiastical rules". The Church doesn't restrict his freedoms since he accepted those rules when he became a priest so I can't really see a scenario where Finnish state would meddle with internal issues of the Finnish Orthodox Church. We might be a state church but we aren't a state ministry.

I hope though that his former parish has treated him with love and understanding. Defrocked priests should be able to attend services just like any other Orthodox laymen.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 05:35:35 PM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2013, 09:19:19 PM »

Maybe he's bitter because he forgot to ask the Archbishop to temporarily laicize him so that he could get married and then be readmitted to the deaconate. That's the way to do thins. Coming soon--temporary monasticizations for married couples.
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2013, 01:55:17 AM »

Under Finnish Law, does this man have a case?

Isn't Finnish law the reason they celebrate Pascha on the western calculation? So, perhaps Finnish courts might hear his claim?

I don't know where people get this idea but AFAIK there is no such law.

I'm not a lawyer but I highly doubt this leads into anything. Every Finnish candidate for priesthood is aware of the fact that priests' divorce and remarriage are discouraged so he was quite aware of the normal procedure when he accepted the ordination. There is a law that states that "The Finnish Orthodox Church is based on the Bible, Tradition, dogmas, canons and other ecclesiastical rules". The Church doesn't restrict his freedoms since he accepted those rules when he became a priest so I can't really see a scenario where Finnish state would meddle with internal issues of the Finnish Orthodox Church. We might be a state church but we aren't a state ministry.

I hope though that his former parish has treated him with love and understanding. Defrocked priests should be able to attend services just like any other Orthodox laymen.

I just recently saw an article that was talking about pascha & pascha celebrations, and it had "FINISH ORTHODOX" (who celebrate on the western Easter because of finish law)

I have no source but I know I saw it
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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2013, 03:07:25 AM »

I just recently saw an article that was talking about pascha & pascha celebrations, and it had "FINISH ORTHODOX" (who celebrate on the western Easter because of finish law)

I have no source but I know I saw it

I've never heard this idea that our calendar is determined by secular law in Finland itself. It's only here where I first encountered it and as I said, at least our present our Orthodox church laws mention nothing about Gregorian Calendar. They just talk about calendar without specifying which calendar they are talking about.

I don't think though that it is entirely impossible to think that state authorities encouraged the calendar switch in the 20's. Times were different back then it and IIRC it wasn't all that self-evident that the Orthodox church was to become second state church.
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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2013, 06:17:40 AM »

Under Finnish Law, does this man have a case?
How would Finnish (or any nation) law control Church law?  It wouldn't.
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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2013, 08:11:09 AM »

My understanding is that the Finns were obliged by the Finnish government to observe Easter on the same date as Western Easter. This is, of course, totally uncanonical.

The case demonstrates a worldly view seeking to intrude into religious life and how far apart the two can be. Indeed I would suggest that this is but one more example of an attack on Christian life inspired by the increasingly successful Marxist philosophy of Antonio Gramsci and his heirs. A philosophy that has been widely adopted by many who would not regard themselves as in any sense Marxist but who nevertheless play their part in the destruction of the Christian institutions and culture that formed European society, as Melanie Philips the Jewish writer and columnist has written.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 08:22:48 AM by Santagranddad » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2013, 08:47:13 AM »

I think they were encouraged to switch, but it's not formally mentioned in any law. My prayers are that something will happen so that they will celebrate again the Holy Ressurection with the rest of Orthodoxy. Estonia (EP) already changed from the Gregorian to the New Orthodox calendar.

As for that defrocked former clergyman, he might just go over to the MP (even pretext the paschalion or whatever), they are doing ikonomia on such things, as long as the marriage is heterosexual.
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« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2013, 09:14:47 AM »

My understanding is that the Finns were obliged by the Finnish government to observe Easter on the same date as Western Easter. This is, of course, totally uncanonical.

As a condition for 'state church' status. It was not forced upon them. Now that Russian-Finnish tension is (I assume) much less acute than in the past, it doubt it is something that cannot be renegotiated.
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Santagranddad
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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2013, 09:44:39 AM »

My understanding is that the Finns were obliged by the Finnish government to observe Easter on the same date as Western Easter. This is, of course, totally uncanonical.

As a condition for 'state church' status. It was not forced upon them. Now that Russian-Finnish tension is (I assume) much less acute than in the past, it doubt it is something that cannot be renegotiated.

Like Judas they rather took thirty pieces of silver from the state than honoured the proper observance of Paschalion.
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« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2013, 09:49:53 AM »

My understanding is that the Finns were obliged by the Finnish government to observe Easter on the same date as Western Easter. This is, of course, totally uncanonical.

As a condition for 'state church' status. It was not forced upon them. Now that Russian-Finnish tension is (I assume) much less acute than in the past, it doubt it is something that cannot be renegotiated.

Like Judas they rather took thirty pieces of silver from the state than honoured the proper observance of Paschalion.

That's a bit harsh.  Angry
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2013, 09:50:08 AM »

I think they were encouraged to switch, but it's not formally mentioned in any law. My prayers are that something will happen so that they will celebrate again the Holy Ressurection with the rest of Orthodoxy. Estonia (EP) already changed from the Gregorian to the New Orthodox calendar.

As for that defrocked former clergyman, he might just go over to the MP (even pretext the paschalion or whatever), they are doing ikonomia on such things, as long as the marriage is heterosexual.


The MP???

As Inspector Renault observed when he "learned" of gambling activities at "Rick' s" in the classic film "Casablanca", I am shocked.  Wink

Memo to all posters: From time to time they (being different bishops in all jurisdictions) ALL do things like that - not just the ones you may not like.
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« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2013, 09:59:51 AM »

The MP???

One of the problems with plural jurisdictions here is that people who are turned down for ordination by one church on account of canonical impediments will simply go and seek out another jurisdiction who is more willing to exercise economia. At least here, many of those who were turned down by Constantinople on account of divorce and remarriage turn to Moscow where they're accepted.
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« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2013, 10:42:25 AM »

The MP???

One of the problems with plural jurisdictions here is that people who are turned down for ordination by one church on account of canonical impediments will simply go and seek out another jurisdiction who is more willing to exercise economia. At least here, many of those who were turned down by Constantinople on account of divorce and remarriage turn to Moscow where they're accepted.

The practices do vary and often make little sense. I don't know of any remarried Orthodox ordained  clergy in our EP ACROD but several BCC celibate priests who married after BCC ordination have been received with the EP' s approval (i think also by the OCA and UOCUSA yet I know several ACROD ordained priest friends whose wives left them, one even left the children with him, who could not receive similar treatment. One single and remains bitter while another left and remarried. If economia is permitted by one national church..... Sigh...Such things make us inscrutable to the Romans. 
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« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2013, 10:44:10 AM »

The MP???

One of the problems with plural jurisdictions here is that people who are turned down for ordination by one church on account of canonical impediments will simply go and seek out another jurisdiction who is more willing to exercise economia. At least here, many of those who were turned down by Constantinople on account of divorce and remarriage turn to Moscow where they're accepted.

The practices do vary and often make little sense. I don't know of any remarried Orthodox ordained  clergy in our EP ACROD but several BCC celibate priests who married after BCC ordination have been received with the EP' s approval (i think also by the OCA and UOCUSA yet I know several ACROD ordained priest friends whose wives left them, one even left the children with him, who could not receive similar treatment. One single and remains bitter while another left and remarried. If economia is permitted by one national church..... Sigh...Such things make us inscrutable to the Romans. 

And to each other. 
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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2013, 11:20:07 AM »

My understanding is that the Finns were obliged by the Finnish government to observe Easter on the same date as Western Easter. This is, of course, totally uncanonical.

As a condition for 'state church' status. It was not forced upon them. Now that Russian-Finnish tension is (I assume) much less acute than in the past, it doubt it is something that cannot be renegotiated.

Like Judas they rather took thirty pieces of silver from the state than honoured the proper observance of Paschalion.

And what is the proper observance of the Paschalion? Any educated Orthodox Christian, who has actually studied the issues with our calendars, knows that our calculations have a lot to be desired. The only reason we can not fix the problem is because of uneducated pharisees who have put a calendar, created by a pagan, above rational thought.

How many times have I had to answer this question this week?... The spring equinox has happened, there was a full moon, and even Passover has happened (not that it matters), so why is our Easter over a month away instead of this week? Can you answer this? If you answer this question correctly, it shows the inherent problem with the Julian Calendar.
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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2013, 11:42:43 AM »

The MP???

As Inspector Renault observed when he "learned" of gambling activities at "Rick' s" in the classic film "Casablanca", I am shocked.  Wink

Memo to all posters: From time to time they (being different bishops in all jurisdictions) ALL do things like that - not just the ones you may not like.

In Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, the divorce rate for the general population is over 70%. Hard to find a person who doesnt divorce at least once in life. So the tolerance is quite high. Also, there still aren't enough priests, they say (though I am not really convinced that every parish in Kyiv needs at least 3 priests...)
That means in practice, that almost all monastics and celibate clergy were married before entering monasticism. As for men, who are ordained while being married, there is quite some divorce, too. Many continue as unmarried priests, but if they find another girl, it is definitely possible to get a second marriage after ordination. I am aware of several cases, and they did it just like the Finnish ex-clergyman in question tried to - they got a civil marriage and then applied to their bishop (in Kyiv, Metropolitan Volodymyr from the UOC-MP) for a second church wedding under ikonomia.

So, actually I would consider it quite probable that the Finn heard about such cases in the MP and tried to do the same. Btw, I also heard such things happened in the Church of Romania, too, but I am not aware of the details.
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2013, 01:07:11 PM »

The MP???

One of the problems with plural jurisdictions here is that people who are turned down for ordination by one church on account of canonical impediments will simply go and seek out another jurisdiction who is more willing to exercise economia. At least here, many of those who were turned down by Constantinople on account of divorce and remarriage turn to Moscow where they're accepted.

The practices do vary and often make little sense. I don't know of any remarried Orthodox ordained  clergy in our EP ACROD but several BCC celibate priests who married after BCC ordination have been received with the EP' s approval (i think also by the OCA and UOCUSA yet I know several ACROD ordained priest friends whose wives left them, one even left the children with him, who could not receive similar treatment. One single and remains bitter while another left and remarried. If economia is permitted by one national church..... Sigh...Such things make us inscrutable to the Romans. 

It is the same way in the Roman Catholic Church where they accept married clergy from Protestant denominations, but not ordain married RC men except to the diaconate.
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