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Author Topic: A Change in RC Canon Law Helped Bring on World War I?  (Read 1206 times) Average Rating: 0
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PeterTheAleut
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« on: March 24, 2013, 01:00:07 AM »

Have you ever studied the history of the Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church?  

Just after the declaration of Papal Supremacy and Papal Infallibility in 1870, canon lawyers at the Vatican started revising the ancient canons to make them comply with the new doctrines concerning the Papacy. The first Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church was published around 1913 just before WWI.  One of the first canons to be revised dealt with how a bishop was to be elected. Since the Pope was now supreme, the canon lawyers changed the election and confirmation of a bishop.

In the canon laws established by the Seven Ecumenical Councils, all of which have anathemas attached if they should be changed, it details that when a diocese is vacant due to the death or resignation of a bishop, then the clergy (with laity present) are to meet and select three candidates. Then the senior priest is to appeal to the nearest bishops to seek their approval of one of the three candidates. When three bishops have chosen one candidate (or more), the candidate will be led into the church and consecrated a bishop by those three bishops. Only after the consecration, will the other churches and hierarchs be notified, including the Bishop of Rome. So, until 1913, the Pope of Rome did not have to approve any candidates for the bishopric.

This centralized control at the Vatican took away local control from the laity and the clergy. In addition, with the establishment of this papal monarchy, local government officials were deprived of their choice of candidates for the bishopric.

This change in canon law and the enforcement of it actually helped bring on World War I.
That's a pretty bold claim, Maria. Exactly how did this change in canon law help bring on WWI? What information can you cite to back up your claim?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 01:00:32 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2013, 01:04:12 AM »

Have you ever studied the history of the Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church?  

Just after the declaration of Papal Supremacy and Papal Infallibility in 1870, canon lawyers at the Vatican started revising the ancient canons to make them comply with the new doctrines concerning the Papacy. The first Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church was published around 1913 just before WWI.  One of the first canons to be revised dealt with how a bishop was to be elected. Since the Pope was now supreme, the canon lawyers changed the election and confirmation of a bishop.

In the canon laws established by the Seven Ecumenical Councils, all of which have anathemas attached if they should be changed, it details that when a diocese is vacant due to the death or resignation of a bishop, then the clergy (with laity present) are to meet and select three candidates. Then the senior priest is to appeal to the nearest bishops to seek their approval of one of the three candidates. When three bishops have chosen one candidate (or more), the candidate will be led into the church and consecrated a bishop by those three bishops. Only after the consecration, will the other churches and hierarchs be notified, including the Bishop of Rome. So, until 1913, the Pope of Rome did not have to approve any candidates for the bishopric.

This centralized control at the Vatican took away local control from the laity and the clergy. In addition, with the establishment of this papal monarchy, local government officials were deprived of their choice of candidates for the bishopric.

This change in canon law and the enforcement of it actually helped bring on World War I.
That's a pretty bold claim, Maria. Exactly how did this change in canon law help bring on WWI? What information can you cite to back up your claim?

At the Melkite parish during 1993-1995, we were all discussing this election in small groups. Several priests brought out their copies of the election code from the Code of Canon Law (1913 version), then they compared it with the Orthodox version of election, which I think they obtained from the Rudder. Several Melkites started investigating Orthodoxy, including my family.

In 1995, when I became an Orthodox catechumen, my priest who was in the OCA showed me how the OCA elected their bishops, which was a little different as the senior cleric did not go to the neighboring diocesan bishops with the list of three names, but the Synod elected the bishop instead. He was a little upset that the OCA Synod had centralized things.

Back to the beginnings of the First World War: Several European countries were upset that they could not pick their favored candidate for the Catholic bishopric after 1913. There was an assassination of an Austrian royalty, over this new code of canon law, and apparently this triggered WWI in 1914.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 01:33:27 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2013, 01:26:50 AM »

On June 28, 1914, there was the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria-Hungarian empire, over this new code of canon law of 1913, and apparently this event triggered WWI in 1914.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/duke.htm

Here is another source, which says the same thing as do many history books that I have consulted in the past. Of course, history tends to be written to express the opinions of those currently in power.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/archduke-franz-ferdinand-assassinated
Quote
In an event that is widely acknowledged to have sparked the outbreak of World War I, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, nephew of Emperor Franz Josef and heir to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, is shot to death along with his wife by a Serbian nationalist in Sarajevo, Bosnia, on this day in 1914.
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2013, 01:48:23 AM »

Back to the beginnings of the First World War: Several European countries were upset that they could not pick their favored candidate for the Catholic bishopric after 1913. There was an assassination of an Austrian royalty, over this new code of canon law, and apparently this triggered WWI in 1914.

I smell rubbish.  Care to explain how a nationalist Serb killed an Austrian Archduke over Roman Catholic canon law changes?
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2013, 01:58:13 AM »

Back to the beginnings of the First World War: Several European countries were upset that they could not pick their favored candidate for the Catholic bishopric after 1913. There was an assassination of an Austrian royalty, over this new code of canon law, and apparently this triggered WWI in 1914.

I smell rubbish.  Care to explain how a nationalist Serb killed an Austrian Archduke over Roman Catholic canon law changes?

Yes, I am doing Internet searches as I write this.

Take a gander at this article, and please read it. I will not baby you.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/10/the-holocaust-and-the-catholic-church/305061/

Quote
The emotions prompted by the Serbian Concordat became part of the general groundswell of anti-Serbian anger. There is no indication that Pacelli questioned the dangerous implications of the Serbian negotiations after the event.

This Serbian Concordat was signed FOUR DAYS before Archduke Ferninard was assassinated. This Serbian Concordat gave the Vatican authority over all Roman Catholics in Serbia. Serbia granted the Vatican the right to impose this new Code of Canon Law over all of Serbia.

Msgr. Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII) who was present at that signing of the Concordat unwittingly brought about WWI, and the Vatican wants to declare him a saint?

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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2013, 02:01:49 AM »

On June 28, 1914, there was the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria-Hungarian empire, over this new code of canon law of 1913, and apparently this event triggered WWI in 1914.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/duke.htm
This article speaks only of the actual assassination. It says nothing at all to connect the assassination to the 1913 code of canon law. That appears to be merely your insertion of your assertion into the history texts.

Here is another source, which says the same thing as do many history books that I have consulted in the past. Of course, history tends to be written to express the opinions of those currently in power.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/archduke-franz-ferdinand-assassinated
Quote
In an event that is widely acknowledged to have sparked the outbreak of World War I, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, nephew of Emperor Franz Josef and heir to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, is shot to death along with his wife by a Serbian nationalist in Sarajevo, Bosnia, on this day in 1914.
Neither does this article make any connection between the Archduke's assassination and any code of canon law.
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2013, 02:06:02 AM »

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/10/the-holocaust-and-the-catholic-church/305061/2/

Quote
The story of Eugenio Pacelli [Pope Pius XII], and of the modern papacy, began with Pius X, whose condemnation of modernism and commissioning of the Vatican-dominated Code of Canon Law set the Catholic Church on its disastrous twentieth-century course.

For more information, read

Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII
by John Cornwell

John Cornwell is a scholar who has done his research.
He has been vilified by many who want to bury his research.

If the Vatican had not been so power hungry, and insisted on imposing Papal Supremacy on all nations through its 1917 Code of Canon Law, we might not have had WWI and WWII. Even though the Code of Canon Law was not published until 1917, it was being forced onto the people by the signing of Concordats much like the Serbian Concordat. Only four days after that signing, Archduke Ferninard was assassinated, and then four days later World War I began.

You cannot tell me that there is no link.
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2013, 02:12:15 AM »

Back to the beginnings of the First World War: Several European countries were upset that they could not pick their favored candidate for the Catholic bishopric after 1913. There was an assassination of an Austrian royalty, over this new code of canon law, and apparently this triggered WWI in 1914.

I smell rubbish.  Care to explain how a nationalist Serb killed an Austrian Archduke over Roman Catholic canon law changes?

Yes, I am doing Internet searches as I write this.

Take a gander at this article, and please read it. I will not baby you.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/10/the-holocaust-and-the-catholic-church/305061/

Quote
The emotions prompted by the Serbian Concordat became part of the general groundswell of anti-Serbian anger. There is no indication that Pacelli questioned the dangerous implications of the Serbian negotiations after the event.

This Serbian Concordat was signed FOUR DAYS before Archduke Ferninard was assassinated. This Serbian Concordat gave the Vatican authority over all Roman Catholics in Serbia. Serbia granted the Vatican the right to impose this new Code of Canon Law over all of Serbia.

Msgr. Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII) who was present at that signing of the Concordat unwittingly brought about WWI, and the Vatican wants to declare him a saint?
Okay, so we read in this article that the Serbian Concordat was signed four days before Archduke Ferdinand was murdered. You do realize that correlation does not imply causation? Just because some concordat was signed so soon before a political assassination does not prove that the signing of the concordat caused the assassination. Otherwise, I don't see in this article--an article from an opinion rag that I wouldn't recognize as an actual historical document, I might add--any connection made between the 1913 code of canon law and World War I. If you don't provide any more convincing sources than the three you've posted thus far, then I have to agree with Cognomen that your assertion smells like rubbish.
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2013, 02:15:36 AM »

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/10/the-holocaust-and-the-catholic-church/305061/2/

Quote
The story of Eugenio Pacelli [Pope Pius XII], and of the modern papacy, began with Pius X, whose condemnation of modernism and commissioning of the Vatican-dominated Code of Canon Law set the Catholic Church on its disastrous twentieth-century course.

For more information, read

Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII
by John Cornwell

John Cornwell is a scholar who has done his research.
So you say.

He has been vilified by many who want to bury his research.
So you say.

Why should we believe you?

If the Vatican had not been so power hungry, and insisted on imposing Papal Supremacy on all nations through its 1917 Code of Canon Law, we might not have had WWI and WWII. Even though the Code of Canon Law was not published until 1917, it was being forced onto the people by the signing of Concordats much like the Serbian Concordat. Only four days after that signing, Archduke Ferninard was assassinated, and then four days later World War I began.

You cannot tell me that there is no link.
You have not made a convincing case that there was a link. Let's face it, Maria, the link you see is nothing more than a manifestation of the correlation = causation fallacy.
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2013, 02:15:45 AM »

Back to the beginnings of the First World War: Several European countries were upset that they could not pick their favored candidate for the Catholic bishopric after 1913. There was an assassination of an Austrian royalty, over this new code of canon law, and apparently this triggered WWI in 1914.

I smell rubbish.  Care to explain how a nationalist Serb killed an Austrian Archduke over Roman Catholic canon law changes?



Yes, I am doing Internet searches as I write this.

Take a gander at this article, and please read it. I will not baby you.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/10/the-holocaust-and-the-catholic-church/305061/

Quote
The emotions prompted by the Serbian Concordat became part of the general groundswell of anti-Serbian anger. There is no indication that Pacelli questioned the dangerous implications of the Serbian negotiations after the event.

This Serbian Concordat was signed FOUR DAYS before Archduke Ferninard was assassinated. This Serbian Concordat gave the Vatican authority over all Roman Catholics in Serbia. Serbia granted the Vatican the right to impose this new Code of Canon Law over all of Serbia.

Msgr. Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII) who was present at that signing of the Concordat unwittingly brought about WWI, and the Vatican wants to declare him a saint?
Okay, so we read in this article that the Serbian Concordat was signed four days before Archduke Ferdinand was murdered. You do realize that correlation does not imply causation? Just because some concordat was signed so soon before a political assassination does not prove that the signing of the concordat caused the assassination. Otherwise, I don't see in this article--an article from an opinion rag that I wouldn't recognize as an actual historical document, I might add--any connection made between the 1913 code of canon law and World War I. If you don't provide any more convincing sources than the three you've posted thus far, then I have to agree with Cognomen that your assertion smells like rubbish.

Fine.  Make my day.

There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2013, 02:23:34 AM »

Back to the beginnings of the First World War: Several European countries were upset that they could not pick their favored candidate for the Catholic bishopric after 1913. There was an assassination of an Austrian royalty, over this new code of canon law, and apparently this triggered WWI in 1914.

I smell rubbish.  Care to explain how a nationalist Serb killed an Austrian Archduke over Roman Catholic canon law changes?



Yes, I am doing Internet searches as I write this.

Take a gander at this article, and please read it. I will not baby you.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/10/the-holocaust-and-the-catholic-church/305061/

Quote
The emotions prompted by the Serbian Concordat became part of the general groundswell of anti-Serbian anger. There is no indication that Pacelli questioned the dangerous implications of the Serbian negotiations after the event.

This Serbian Concordat was signed FOUR DAYS before Archduke Ferninard was assassinated. This Serbian Concordat gave the Vatican authority over all Roman Catholics in Serbia. Serbia granted the Vatican the right to impose this new Code of Canon Law over all of Serbia.

Msgr. Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII) who was present at that signing of the Concordat unwittingly brought about WWI, and the Vatican wants to declare him a saint?
Okay, so we read in this article that the Serbian Concordat was signed four days before Archduke Ferdinand was murdered. You do realize that correlation does not imply causation? Just because some concordat was signed so soon before a political assassination does not prove that the signing of the concordat caused the assassination. Otherwise, I don't see in this article--an article from an opinion rag that I wouldn't recognize as an actual historical document, I might add--any connection made between the 1913 code of canon law and World War I. If you don't provide any more convincing sources than the three you've posted thus far, then I have to agree with Cognomen that your assertion smells like rubbish.

Fine.  Make my day.

There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
Okay, so they do. I don't purport to know anything about this code of canon law nor about the Melkite and Eastern Catholic hatred for it, so I'm not going to comment on any of that. I'm sure they have legitimate reasons for detesting it.

I just think you should either submit much stronger proof of your claim that this code of canon law helped trigger World War I or disavow your claim as the piece of garbage history it is.
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2013, 02:27:50 AM »


There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
Okay, so they do. I don't purport to know anything about this code of canon law nor about the Melkite and Eastern Catholic hatred for it, so I'm not going to comment on any of that. I just think you should either submit much stronger proof of your claim that this code of canon law helped trigger World War I or disavow your claim as the piece of garbage history it is.

If you had read the book, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, with an open mind, you would see the connection. But I guess that is too much to ask.

I cannot quote major portions of Cornwell's book without incurring copyright violations, and I will not waste my time babying people who refuse to read and learn history.
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2013, 02:50:39 AM »


There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
Okay, so they do. I don't purport to know anything about this code of canon law nor about the Melkite and Eastern Catholic hatred for it, so I'm not going to comment on any of that. I just think you should either submit much stronger proof of your claim that this code of canon law helped trigger World War I or disavow your claim as the piece of garbage history it is.

If you had read the book, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, with an open mind, you would see the connection. But I guess that is too much to ask.

I cannot quote major portions of Cornwell's book without incurring copyright violations, and I will not waste my time babying people who refuse to read and learn history.
You expect me to go the library at 11:00 on a Saturday night and then read that book from cover to cover in just 15 minutes to see the connection you want me to see!!?  Shocked Huh Yes, that is too much to ask. Way too much to ask. Roll Eyes

You made the claim. You therefore bear the burden of proof to offer evidence for your claim. Doing nothing more than tell me to read a book is making me do your dirty work for you, which I refuse to do. You either submit to this thread proof for your outlandish claim or concede that your claim will be thrown out with yesterday's garbage. It's really that simple.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 02:52:35 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2013, 02:58:58 AM »

You expect me to go the library at 11:00 on a Saturday night and then read that book from cover to cover in just 15 minutes to see the connection you want me to see!!?  Shocked Huh Yes, that is too much to ask. Way too much to ask. Roll Eyes


Simmer down, PtA, where's the deadline in any of Maria's posts on the matter? You're reading far too much in what Maria is saying. 
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2013, 10:49:08 AM »

You expect me to go the library at 11:00 on a Saturday night and then read that book from cover to cover in just 15 minutes to see the connection you want me to see!!?  Shocked Huh Yes, that is too much to ask. Way too much to ask. Roll Eyes


Simmer down, PtA, where's the deadline in any of Maria's posts on the matter? You're reading far too much in what Maria is saying. 
You obviously don't know humor when you see it. laugh
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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2013, 11:35:05 AM »


There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
Okay, so they do. I don't purport to know anything about this code of canon law nor about the Melkite and Eastern Catholic hatred for it, so I'm not going to comment on any of that. I just think you should either submit much stronger proof of your claim that this code of canon law helped trigger World War I or disavow your claim as the piece of garbage history it is.

If you had read the book, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, with an open mind, you would see the connection. But I guess that is too much to ask.

I cannot quote major portions of Cornwell's book without incurring copyright violations, and I will not waste my time babying people who refuse to read and learn history.

I'll admit that I haven't read Cornwell's book.  I also haven't read this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Hitlers-Pope-Against-Germany/dp/0895260344/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1364139374&sr=1-1&keywords=the+myth+of+hitler%27s+pope

Have you?
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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2013, 01:04:51 PM »


There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
Okay, so they do. I don't purport to know anything about this code of canon law nor about the Melkite and Eastern Catholic hatred for it, so I'm not going to comment on any of that. I just think you should either submit much stronger proof of your claim that this code of canon law helped trigger World War I or disavow your claim as the piece of garbage history it is.

If you had read the book, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, with an open mind, you would see the connection. But I guess that is too much to ask.

I cannot quote major portions of Cornwell's book without incurring copyright violations, and I will not waste my time babying people who refuse to read and learn history.

I'll admit that I haven't read Cornwell's book.  I also haven't read this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Hitlers-Pope-Against-Germany/dp/0895260344/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1364139374&sr=1-1&keywords=the+myth+of+hitler%27s+pope

Have you?

Yes, I read excerpts. I was not impressed.

Cornwell does not claim that Pope Pius XII did not rescue Jews. (Please excuse the double negative.) It was well known that this Pope did help Jews who managed to escape into Vatican City.

When Cornwell started to write his book, he did so to affirm P. Pius XII who was being investigated by the Vatican as a possible saint. However, when he really started to search deep into the Vatican archives, then he uncovered a lot of information that pointed the other way and showed that P. Pius XII was very political and not so saintly, but was apparently deluted and filled with prelest. After writing this book, Cornwell's Catholic faith was shaken to the core. In 1999, when Cornwell's book was published, our family had already embraced Orthodoxy, so the book just confirmed that our family had made the correct decision.

An interesting tidbit: When I read Cornwell's book, I corresponded with Brother Dimond and suggested that he read it too. At first, he rejected that idea. So, I encouraged him to read the encyclicals of P. Pius XII, especially M. Corporus, where this pope not only called for liturgical abuse to stop, but also called for the establishment of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions throughout the world.

These same Liturgical Commissions established by P. Pius XII began to clammer for another council, Vatican II, and with primary support of Jesuits these commissions encouraged the revision of the Mass. I attended some Jesuit retreats for school children back before Vatican II, where the Jesuits had already begun to experiment with the Mass. After Vatican II, the Jesuits would often stage agape meals in place of the Mass using Irish Soda bread complete with raisins and caraway seeds as the "bread" for the Mass. Finally, the real liturgical abuse began with clown, beer, and bikini masses. I witnessed it all in Northern and Southern California. The Jesuits told me that these liturgical experiments were occurring in North America, France, England, and in South America. Finally, a good priest brought me to my senses when I realized that such masses were destroying my faith. I left the Novus Ordo jungle, became a Melkite Eastern Catholic, and then finally crossed the bridge over into Orthodoxy.

Back in the early 2000s, I also encouraged Br. Dimond to read the 1917 Code of Canon Law and the revisions done in the early 1990s and again in the early 2000s. Shortly thereafter, Br. Dimond changed his story and started addressing both P. Pius XII and P. Pius XI as Anti-Popes. His list of Anti-Popes seems to get longer with every year that passes. Soon, I think Br. Dimond might go so far as to become an Old Roman Catholic or embrace Orthodoxy when Papal supremacy and Papal infallibility no longer have any validity for him.

Let us pray for Br. Dimond and his Holy Family Monastery that they may be saved.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 01:10:12 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2013, 02:33:06 PM »

I will play the Devil's Advocate card too.

Note, in my readings, I attempt to read critically, thus, I do not accept all that Cornwell has written as Cornwell is obviously a modernist and a self-proclaimed liberal as he condemns Pope Pius X for condemnation of modernism. Nevertheless, Cornwell did awesome research when granted access to secret papers in the Vatican archives.

Below is an article written by William D. Rubinstein. This piece obviously opposes Cornwell's thesis in his book Hitler's Pope. However, this article by Rubinstein is also biased and lacks accuracy as histories are always skewed and written from the eyes of the rich and powerful. Obviously Rubinstein did not have access to all the Vatican documents that were made available to Cornwell, and most likely was writing as an arrogant Professor.

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0014.html

Quote
In case this achievement had passed you by, Pacelli is culpable because of the Serbian Concordat that he was chiefly responsible for negotiating in the months of 1914 just prior to the war. Under this treaty, Serbia granted control of the Catholic religion in new areas of the Balkans it had acquired in the Balkan wars directly to the Vatican, rather than (as Austria-Hungary wished) granting Austria extraterritorial control within Serbia over Catholic interests. According to Cornwell, this inflamed Austrian nationalists and “represented a contribution to the tensions that led the Austrian government to overplay its hand” in the summer of 1914.

I have attended many lectures and read books written by scholarly Serbs, who also have received doctorates in history. The majority of Serbs had no love for the Roman Catholic Church, which had tried to enforce their faith on the Orthodox Christians in the Balkans. So, this Serbian Concordat with the Vatican, negotiated for months by Msgr. Pacelli [P. Pius XII] and signed on June 24, 1914 just four days before Archduke Ferdinand's death on June 28, 1914, would upset any nationalist Serb, Serbian Orthodox or Russian Orthodox as Orthodox Christians were opposed to any deals with the Vatican.

This Serbian Concordat was not the only Vatican Concordat signed as all nations had to sign similar concordats to stop interfering with the election of Catholic bishops. This papal power grab by the Vatican faced tremendous opposition in the Balkans which were ready to explode. It was the last straw.

Remember the opposition of the Serbs when Bosnia was bombed and taken out of their control on Pascha by NATO? I wept on that day and I continue to weep as Serbia is raped and their churches destroyed by the Muslim hordes.

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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2013, 02:46:49 PM »


There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
Okay, so they do. I don't purport to know anything about this code of canon law nor about the Melkite and Eastern Catholic hatred for it, so I'm not going to comment on any of that. I just think you should either submit much stronger proof of your claim that this code of canon law helped trigger World War I or disavow your claim as the piece of garbage history it is.

If you had read the book, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, with an open mind, you would see the connection. But I guess that is too much to ask.

I cannot quote major portions of Cornwell's book without incurring copyright violations, and I will not waste my time babying people who refuse to read and learn history.

I'll admit that I haven't read Cornwell's book.  I also haven't read this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Hitlers-Pope-Against-Germany/dp/0895260344/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1364139374&sr=1-1&keywords=the+myth+of+hitler%27s+pope

Have you?

Yes, I read excerpts. I was not impressed.

Cornwell does not claim that Pope Pius XII did not rescue Jews. (Please excuse the double negative.) It was well known that this Pope did help Jews who managed to escape into Vatican City.

When Cornwell started to write his book, he did so to affirm P. Pius XII who was being investigated by the Vatican as a possible saint. However, when he really started to search deep into the Vatican archives, then he uncovered a lot of information that pointed the other way and showed that P. Pius XII was very political and not so saintly, but was apparently deluted and filled with prelest. After writing this book, Cornwell's Catholic faith was shaken to the core. In 1999, when Cornwell's book was published, our family had already embraced Orthodoxy, so the book just confirmed that our family had made the correct decision.

An interesting tidbit: When I read Cornwell's book, I corresponded with Brother Dimond and suggested that he read it too. At first, he rejected that idea. So, I encouraged him to read the encyclicals of P. Pius XII, especially M. Corporus, where this pope not only called for liturgical abuse to stop, but also called for the establishment of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions throughout the world.

These same Liturgical Commissions established by P. Pius XII began to clammer for another council, Vatican II, and with primary support of Jesuits these commissions encouraged the revision of the Mass. I attended some Jesuit retreats for school children back before Vatican II, where the Jesuits had already begun to experiment with the Mass. After Vatican II, the Jesuits would often stage agape meals in place of the Mass using Irish Soda bread complete with raisins and caraway seeds as the "bread" for the Mass. Finally, the real liturgical abuse began with clown, beer, and bikini masses. I witnessed it all in Northern and Southern California. The Jesuits told me that these liturgical experiments were occurring in North America, France, England, and in South America. Finally, a good priest brought me to my senses when I realized that such masses were destroying my faith. I left the Novus Ordo jungle, became a Melkite Eastern Catholic, and then finally crossed the bridge over into Orthodoxy.

Back in the early 2000s, I also encouraged Br. Dimond to read the 1917 Code of Canon Law and the revisions done in the early 1990s and again in the early 2000s. Shortly thereafter, Br. Dimond changed his story and started addressing both P. Pius XII and P. Pius XI as Anti-Popes. His list of Anti-Popes seems to get longer with every year that passes. Soon, I think Br. Dimond might go so far as to become an Old Roman Catholic or embrace Orthodoxy when Papal supremacy and Papal infallibility no longer have any validity for him.

Let us pray for Br. Dimond and his Holy Family Monastery that they may be saved.

With all due respect, "excerpts"?  That could mean anything from a couple of sentences to a page or three to a chapter to, well...just about anything.  Again, I haven't read either book so cannot and will not comment on them, but when someone does comment on a book on the basis of having read "excerpts", this does not impress me.  Not in the least.  I've read excerpts of Toltoy's "War and Peace"--I would hardly pretend to be qualified to comment on it.  From those excerpts, however, I can't see what's so great about it or why it's a classic  Cheesy Cheesy--maybe one day, when I have lots more time and interest, I'll read the whole thing, and then I'll know.

Please tell me that, as a sedevecantist, Br. Dimond does not have an agenda?  Sorry, but one look at the homepage of the "monastery", was a complete and utter turnoff.  So, yeah, I'm biased.  Wink

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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2013, 02:55:41 PM »

I went to the bookstore, read the first and the last chapter of R. Dalin's book, then I looked at the table of contents, read a few excerpts from several other chapters, but I was not impressed.
Needless to say, I did not purchase it.
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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2013, 03:04:16 PM »

I went to the bookstore, read the first and the last chapter of R. Dalin's book, then I looked at the table of contents, read a few excerpts from several other chapters, but I was not impressed.
Needless to say, I did not purchase it.

So, you learned enough to know that you didn't want to spend the money on it, but not enough to be able to comment on it or compare his thesis with Cornwell's.  Okay.
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« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2013, 03:08:57 PM »

I went to the bookstore, read the first and the last chapter of R. Dalin's book, then I looked at the table of contents, read a few excerpts from several other chapters, but I was not impressed.
Needless to say, I did not purchase it.

So, you learned enough to know that you didn't want to spend the money on it, but not enough to be able to comment on it or compare his thesis with Cornwell's.  Okay.

No, your last paragraph is mere conjecture.

I read enough to realize that all the author was doing was defending the Jews and P. Pius XII, whom he honored and respected as a man who had saved the lives of thousands of Jews.

The book did not cover the Serbian Concordat. 
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« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2013, 03:15:10 PM »



This is from Amazon, and I concur with this assessment.

Quote
In The Myth of Hitler’s Pope, you’ll learn:
. The true history of Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust—how the Catholic Church did more than any other religious body to save Jewish lives
. The real history of the Church and the Nazis—including the Nazi plan to kidnap the pope
. The real agenda of the myth-makers: hijacking the Holocaust to attack the very idea of the papacy—especially the papacy of the late Pope John Paul II—as well as Christianity and traditional religion as a whole
. Hitler’s cleric—Hajj Amin al-Husseini, who advised and assisted the Nazis in carrying out Hitler’s Final Solution
. How Pope Pius XII rescued Jews—and deserves to be called a "righteous gentile"—while the grand mufti of Jerusalem called for their extermination.

Any historian would tell you that Hitler enlisted the aid of Muslims during WWII.


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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2013, 03:40:36 PM »


There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
Okay, so they do. I don't purport to know anything about this code of canon law nor about the Melkite and Eastern Catholic hatred for it, so I'm not going to comment on any of that. I just think you should either submit much stronger proof of your claim that this code of canon law helped trigger World War I or disavow your claim as the piece of garbage history it is.

If you had read the book, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, with an open mind, you would see the connection. But I guess that is too much to ask.

I cannot quote major portions of Cornwell's book without incurring copyright violations, and I will not waste my time babying people who refuse to read and learn history.

I'll admit that I haven't read Cornwell's book.  I also haven't read this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Hitlers-Pope-Against-Germany/dp/0895260344/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1364139374&sr=1-1&keywords=the+myth+of+hitler%27s+pope

Have you?

Yes, I read excerpts. I was not impressed.

Cornwell does not claim that Pope Pius XII did not rescue Jews. (Please excuse the double negative.) It was well known that this Pope did help Jews who managed to escape into Vatican City.

When Cornwell started to write his book, he did so to affirm P. Pius XII who was being investigated by the Vatican as a possible saint. However, when he really started to search deep into the Vatican archives, then he uncovered a lot of information that pointed the other way and showed that P. Pius XII was very political and not so saintly, but was apparently deluted and filled with prelest. After writing this book, Cornwell's Catholic faith was shaken to the core. In 1999, when Cornwell's book was published, our family had already embraced Orthodoxy, so the book just confirmed that our family had made the correct decision.

An interesting tidbit: When I read Cornwell's book, I corresponded with Brother Dimond and suggested that he read it too. At first, he rejected that idea. So, I encouraged him to read the encyclicals of P. Pius XII, especially M. Corporus, where this pope not only called for liturgical abuse to stop, but also called for the establishment of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions throughout the world.

These same Liturgical Commissions established by P. Pius XII began to clammer for another council, Vatican II, and with primary support of Jesuits these commissions encouraged the revision of the Mass. I attended some Jesuit retreats for school children back before Vatican II, where the Jesuits had already begun to experiment with the Mass. After Vatican II, the Jesuits would often stage agape meals in place of the Mass using Irish Soda bread complete with raisins and caraway seeds as the "bread" for the Mass. Finally, the real liturgical abuse began with clown, beer, and bikini masses. I witnessed it all in Northern and Southern California. The Jesuits told me that these liturgical experiments were occurring in North America, France, England, and in South America. Finally, a good priest brought me to my senses when I realized that such masses were destroying my faith. I left the Novus Ordo jungle, became a Melkite Eastern Catholic, and then finally crossed the bridge over into Orthodoxy.

Back in the early 2000s, I also encouraged Br. Dimond to read the 1917 Code of Canon Law and the revisions done in the early 1990s and again in the early 2000s. Shortly thereafter, Br. Dimond changed his story and started addressing both P. Pius XII and P. Pius XI as Anti-Popes. His list of Anti-Popes seems to get longer with every year that passes. Soon, I think Br. Dimond might go so far as to become an Old Roman Catholic or embrace Orthodoxy when Papal supremacy and Papal infallibility no longer have any validity for him.

Let us pray for Br. Dimond and his Holy Family Monastery that they may be saved.
But you were impressed by "Hitler's Pope?" wow.
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« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2013, 03:49:20 PM »

I went to the bookstore, read the first and the last chapter of R. Dalin's book, then I looked at the table of contents, read a few excerpts from several other chapters, but I was not impressed.
Needless to say, I did not purchase it.

So, you learned enough to know that you didn't want to spend the money on it, but not enough to be able to comment on it or compare his thesis with Cornwell's.  Okay.

No, your last paragraph is mere conjecture.

I read enough to realize that all the author was doing was defending the Jews and P. Pius XII, whom he honored and respected as a man who had saved the lives of thousands of Jews.

The book did not cover the Serbian Concordat. 

Okay.  So it's not a history of the Serbian Concordat.  I can certainly accept that and if that's what you were looking for, then that obviously wasn't the book you wanted.  Surely, though, there are other histories of it besides Cornwell's, no?  Or other history books that deal with it.  Did you read any of those?  I'm not trying to pick on you, Maria, but if I were interested (enough) in that period of history and those events, I'd want to get my hands and eyes on everything available that I could so I could (hopefully) come to my own conclusions, hopefully in spite of any prejudices I might already have.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know Rubenstein didn't have access to the same documents Cornwell did? 
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« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2013, 04:39:45 PM »

Have you ever studied the history of the Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church?  

Just after the declaration of Papal Supremacy and Papal Infallibility in 1870, canon lawyers at the Vatican started revising the ancient canons to make them comply with the new doctrines concerning the Papacy. The first Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church was published around 1913 just before WWI.  One of the first canons to be revised dealt with how a bishop was to be elected. Since the Pope was now supreme, the canon lawyers changed the election and confirmation of a bishop.

In the canon laws established by the Seven Ecumenical Councils, all of which have anathemas attached if they should be changed, it details that when a diocese is vacant due to the death or resignation of a bishop, then the clergy (with laity present) are to meet and select three candidates. Then the senior priest is to appeal to the nearest bishops to seek their approval of one of the three candidates. When three bishops have chosen one candidate (or more), the candidate will be led into the church and consecrated a bishop by those three bishops. Only after the consecration, will the other churches and hierarchs be notified, including the Bishop of Rome. So, until 1913, the Pope of Rome did not have to approve any candidates for the bishopric.

This centralized control at the Vatican took away local control from the laity and the clergy. In addition, with the establishment of this papal monarchy, local government officials were deprived of their choice of candidates for the bishopric.

This change in canon law and the enforcement of it actually helped bring on World War I.
That's a pretty bold claim, Maria. Exactly how did this change in canon law help bring on WWI? What information can you cite to back up your claim?

Yes, i wonder how this influenced the french and germans to butcher each other for the Alsace-Loraine, or how this influenced Romania to take Transylvania back etc etc.  Cheesy
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« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2013, 04:42:27 PM »

Maria said:


Quote
If the Vatican had not been so power hungry, and insisted on imposing Papal Supremacy on all nations through its 1917 Code of Canon Law, we might not have had WWI

Care to explain how the new Code of Canon Law of 1917 provoked a war that started 3 years before in 1914?  Grin
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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2013, 05:25:38 PM »

Maria said:


Quote
If the Vatican had not been so power hungry, and insisted on imposing Papal Supremacy on all nations through its 1917 Code of Canon Law, we might not have had WWI

Care to explain how the new Code of Canon Law of 1917 provoked a war that started 3 years before in 1914?  Grin

Msgr. Pacelli [P. Pius XII] was a canon lawyer who had worked extensively on the revisions of the Holy Canons to prepare this 1917 Code of Canon Law. This Code of Canon Law was already completed by 1913 and was getting ready for publication. Thus, Msgr. Pacelli visited many countries and encouraged/forced these countries to sign a concordat with the Vatican accepting this new Code of Canon Law, especially the portion that deals with the election of Catholic Bishops.

In case you did not read my prior posts, this new election protocol forbade political interference with the election of Catholic Bishops. Prior to this time, countries could propose or force their own favorite candidates upon the local bishops as no Vatican pre-approval was necessary. However, with the dogma of Papal Supremacy and the change in election protocols, the Vatican became more powerful and more of a monarchy. Every candidate for episcopal consecration now had to be pre-approved by Rome before they could be ordained to the Bishopric.

Today, although Catholic priests of a vacant diocese may choose three candidates, the Pope has the final say as to which one is elected. This was not the case before 1913 or 1870, where local Roman Catholic dioceses would choose, elect, and consecrate their candidates for the Bishopric, and then notify Rome after the fact. Note that the ancient Canons of the Orthodox Catholic Church were somewhat followed by Rome before 1870. However, after 800 AD, and especially after 1054, Rome felt that it had the freedom to pick and choose which canons to observe and which ones to cast aside for political expediency.
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« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2013, 05:27:27 PM »


There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
Okay, so they do. I don't purport to know anything about this code of canon law nor about the Melkite and Eastern Catholic hatred for it, so I'm not going to comment on any of that. I just think you should either submit much stronger proof of your claim that this code of canon law helped trigger World War I or disavow your claim as the piece of garbage history it is.

If you had read the book, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, with an open mind, you would see the connection. But I guess that is too much to ask.

I cannot quote major portions of Cornwell's book without incurring copyright violations, and I will not waste my time babying people who refuse to read and learn history.

I'll admit that I haven't read Cornwell's book.  I also haven't read this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Hitlers-Pope-Against-Germany/dp/0895260344/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1364139374&sr=1-1&keywords=the+myth+of+hitler%27s+pope

Have you?

Yes, I read excerpts. I was not impressed.

Cornwell does not claim that Pope Pius XII did not rescue Jews. (Please excuse the double negative.) It was well known that this Pope did help Jews who managed to escape into Vatican City.

When Cornwell started to write his book, he did so to affirm P. Pius XII who was being investigated by the Vatican as a possible saint. However, when he really started to search deep into the Vatican archives, then he uncovered a lot of information that pointed the other way and showed that P. Pius XII was very political and not so saintly, but was apparently deluted and filled with prelest. After writing this book, Cornwell's Catholic faith was shaken to the core. In 1999, when Cornwell's book was published, our family had already embraced Orthodoxy, so the book just confirmed that our family had made the correct decision.

An interesting tidbit: When I read Cornwell's book, I corresponded with Brother Dimond and suggested that he read it too. At first, he rejected that idea. So, I encouraged him to read the encyclicals of P. Pius XII, especially M. Corporus, where this pope not only called for liturgical abuse to stop, but also called for the establishment of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions throughout the world.

These same Liturgical Commissions established by P. Pius XII began to clammer for another council, Vatican II, and with primary support of Jesuits these commissions encouraged the revision of the Mass. I attended some Jesuit retreats for school children back before Vatican II, where the Jesuits had already begun to experiment with the Mass. After Vatican II, the Jesuits would often stage agape meals in place of the Mass using Irish Soda bread complete with raisins and caraway seeds as the "bread" for the Mass. Finally, the real liturgical abuse began with clown, beer, and bikini masses. I witnessed it all in Northern and Southern California. The Jesuits told me that these liturgical experiments were occurring in North America, France, England, and in South America. Finally, a good priest brought me to my senses when I realized that such masses were destroying my faith. I left the Novus Ordo jungle, became a Melkite Eastern Catholic, and then finally crossed the bridge over into Orthodoxy.

Back in the early 2000s, I also encouraged Br. Dimond to read the 1917 Code of Canon Law and the revisions done in the early 1990s and again in the early 2000s. Shortly thereafter, Br. Dimond changed his story and started addressing both P. Pius XII and P. Pius XI as Anti-Popes. His list of Anti-Popes seems to get longer with every year that passes. Soon, I think Br. Dimond might go so far as to become an Old Roman Catholic or embrace Orthodoxy when Papal supremacy and Papal infallibility no longer have any validity for him.

Let us pray for Br. Dimond and his Holy Family Monastery that they may be saved.
But you were impressed by "Hitler's Pope?" wow.

Only certain parts impressed me. There were other parts where I disagreed, especially his outlandish condemnation of Pope Pius X. Cornwell is definitely not infallible, nor is Rubenstein.
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« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2013, 05:29:21 PM »

I went to the bookstore, read the first and the last chapter of R. Dalin's book, then I looked at the table of contents, read a few excerpts from several other chapters, but I was not impressed.
Needless to say, I did not purchase it.
So you only read from cover to cover those books that support your prejudices? If a book contradicts your prejudices, you dismiss it out of hand? How is that academically honest?
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« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2013, 05:30:27 PM »


Yes, i wonder how this influenced the french and germans to butcher each other for the Alsace-Loraine, or how this influenced Romania to take Transylvania back etc etc.  Cheesy

Once people start fighting, then appeals to reason cease. It becomes time for looting, raping, killing, and grabbing whatever choice pieces of real estate that they can claim. War is hell.
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« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2013, 05:33:45 PM »

I went to the bookstore, read the first and the last chapter of R. Dalin's book, then I looked at the table of contents, read a few excerpts from several other chapters, but I was not impressed.
Needless to say, I did not purchase it.
So you only read from cover to cover those books that support your prejudices? If a book contradicts your prejudices, you dismiss it out of hand? How is that academically honest?

PtA, kindly read my other posts and stop making false insinuations.

I stopped reading the book after searching the title of contents, reading chapter 1 and the final chapter and then realizing that he was only making his case that P Pius XII defended the Jews. R. Dalin did not cover the beginnings of WWI as he was focused on WWII.

I was interested in how WWI started, not WWII. Two different academic areas.

Regarding Cornwell book, I wrote this previously:
Only certain parts impressed me. There were other parts where I disagreed, especially his outlandish condemnation of Pope Pius X. Cornwell is definitely not infallible, nor is Rubenstein.
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« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2013, 05:47:33 PM »

I went to the bookstore, read the first and the last chapter of R. Dalin's book, then I looked at the table of contents, read a few excerpts from several other chapters, but I was not impressed.
Needless to say, I did not purchase it.

So, you learned enough to know that you didn't want to spend the money on it, but not enough to be able to comment on it or compare his thesis with Cornwell's.  Okay.

No, your last paragraph is mere conjecture.

I read enough to realize that all the author was doing was defending the Jews and P. Pius XII, whom he honored and respected as a man who had saved the lives of thousands of Jews.

The book did not cover the Serbian Concordat. 

Okay.  So it's not a history of the Serbian Concordat.  I can certainly accept that and if that's what you were looking for, then that obviously wasn't the book you wanted.  Surely, though, there are other histories of it besides Cornwell's, no?  Or other history books that deal with it.  Did you read any of those?  I'm not trying to pick on you, Maria, but if I were interested (enough) in that period of history and those events, I'd want to get my hands and eyes on everything available that I could so I could (hopefully) come to my own conclusions, hopefully in spite of any prejudices I might already have.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know Rubenstein didn't have access to the same documents Cornwell did? 

He did not have the extensive bibliography that Cornwell did.
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« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2013, 05:51:30 PM »

You expect me to go the library at 11:00 on a Saturday night and then read that book from cover to cover in just 15 minutes to see the connection you want me to see!!?  Shocked Huh Yes, that is too much to ask. Way too much to ask. Roll Eyes


Simmer down, PtA, where's the deadline in any of Maria's posts on the matter? You're reading far too much in what Maria is saying. 
You obviously don't know humor when you see it. laugh

Humor? Nonsense. The smileys you used in your post speak otherwise.
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« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2013, 05:53:46 PM »

You expect me to go the library at 11:00 on a Saturday night and then read that book from cover to cover in just 15 minutes to see the connection you want me to see!!?  Shocked Huh Yes, that is too much to ask. Way too much to ask. Roll Eyes


Simmer down, PtA, where's the deadline in any of Maria's posts on the matter? You're reading far too much in what Maria is saying.  
You obviously don't know humor when you see it. laugh

Humor? Nonsense. The smileys you used in your post speak otherwise.

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« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2013, 05:57:22 PM »

I went to the bookstore, read the first and the last chapter of R. Dalin's book, then I looked at the table of contents, read a few excerpts from several other chapters, but I was not impressed.
Needless to say, I did not purchase it.
So you only read from cover to cover those books that support your prejudices? If a book contradicts your prejudices, you dismiss it out of hand? How is that academically honest?

PtA, kindly read my other posts and stop making false insinuations.
I've been reading your posts, Maria. I know that you praised John Cornwell as a scholar who has done his research and that you complained preemptively about how his opponents vilify him and try to bury his research. I know how you've argued that the code of canon law written in 1913 helped bring about World War I, based on your reading of John Cornwell, though you have thus far refused to quote Mr. Cornwell on this thread. I know how you've cast aside after only a cursory reading some works that counter Mr. Cornwell. I think one can easily see that you accept quite readily John Cornwell's Hitler's Pope as truth while rejecting, even preemptively, any history that contradicts his. One could conclude from this bias that you actually are quite prejudiced toward Cornwell and against his opponents.

I stopped reading the book after searching the title of contents, reading chapter 1 and the final chapter and then realizing that he was only making his case that P Pius XII defended the Jews. R. Dalin did not cover the beginnings of WWI as he was focused on WWII.
So what? You still think Mr. Cornwell presents the only credible history of Pope Pius XII prior to WWI. Why is this?

I was interested in how WWI started, not WWII. Two different academic areas.
And yet I still see no evidence of any academic rigor on your part. You still refuse to post any convincing evidence for your outlandish claim that Msgr. Pacelli helped bring about WWI.

Regarding Cornwell book, I wrote this previously:
Only certain parts impressed me. There were other parts where I disagreed, especially his outlandish condemnation of Pope Pius X. Cornwell is definitely not infallible, nor is Rubenstein.
Okay. So you disagree at times with Cornwell. I don't see how your disagreement with anyone shows true academic rigor. You still seem to think that Cornwell is the only credible authority on the life and work of Pope Pius XII prior to World War I.
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« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2013, 05:57:54 PM »

You expect me to go the library at 11:00 on a Saturday night and then read that book from cover to cover in just 15 minutes to see the connection you want me to see!!?  Shocked Huh Yes, that is too much to ask. Way too much to ask. Roll Eyes


Simmer down, PtA, where's the deadline in any of Maria's posts on the matter? You're reading far too much in what Maria is saying. 
You obviously don't know humor when you see it. laugh

Humor? Nonsense. The smileys you used in your post speak otherwise.

Yes, interesting how everyone can take pot shots at another poster and be completely off topic .


BACK ON TOPIC:

Does every see how the Orthodox Christians in Russia and Serbia would become irate that the Vatican would impose Papal Supremacy on the fraction of Catholics in the largely Orthodox Serbian populace? Does anyone sense how the largely Catholic populace of Austria would be incensed that the Vatican would take away its hard won rights over the Serbian populace.

Does anyone see how perversely insane the dogmas of Papal Infallibility and Papal Supremacy are?
Humans trying to act as if they had the infallibility of God? Such arrogance that lit the match starting World War I and killing millions.
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« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2013, 06:08:19 PM »

You expect me to go the library at 11:00 on a Saturday night and then read that book from cover to cover in just 15 minutes to see the connection you want me to see!!?  Shocked Huh Yes, that is too much to ask. Way too much to ask. Roll Eyes


Simmer down, PtA, where's the deadline in any of Maria's posts on the matter? You're reading far too much in what Maria is saying. 
You obviously don't know humor when you see it. laugh

Humor? Nonsense. The smileys you used in your post speak otherwise.

Yes, interesting how everyone can take pot shots at another poster and be completely off topic .
You make a bizarre and off-topic claim that a code of canon law helped start World War I, and when pressed for proof of your claim, you cite a couple of irrelevant articles and tell us to go read a book that somehow explains everything, though you won't quote this book yourself. Then when all is said and done, you have the temerity to accuse us of taking pot shots at you and driving this thread off topic rather than admit that your claim has no merit? Huh
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« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2013, 06:10:49 PM »

Does every see how the Orthodox Christians in Russia and Serbia would become irate that the Vatican would impose Papal Supremacy on the fraction of Catholics in the largely Orthodox Serbian populace?  Does anyone sense how the largely Catholic populace of Austria would be incensed that the Vatican would take away its hard won rights over the Serbian populace.

I really don't.

Quote
Does anyone see how perversely insane the dogmas of Papal Infallibility and Papal Supremacy are?
Humans trying to act as if they had the infallibility of God? Such arrogance that lit the match starting World War I and killing millions.

Maria, while I obviously agree with you that papal infallibility is wrong and possibly worse than that, the latter portion of that statement is an unsubstantiated assertion.  It complicates the issue and takes us further 'off topic.'

Have we collectively succeeded in running off the original poster?
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« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2013, 09:32:07 PM »

Back to the beginnings of the First World War: Several European countries were upset that they could not pick their favored candidate for the Catholic bishopric after 1913. There was an assassination of an Austrian royalty, over this new code of canon law, and apparently this triggered WWI in 1914.

I smell rubbish.  Care to explain how a nationalist Serb killed an Austrian Archduke over Roman Catholic canon law changes?

Yes, I am doing Internet searches as I write this.

Take a gander at this article, and please read it. I will not baby you.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/10/the-holocaust-and-the-catholic-church/305061/

Quote
The emotions prompted by the Serbian Concordat became part of the general groundswell of anti-Serbian anger. There is no indication that Pacelli questioned the dangerous implications of the Serbian negotiations after the event.

This Serbian Concordat was signed FOUR DAYS before Archduke Ferninard was assassinated. This Serbian Concordat gave the Vatican authority over all Roman Catholics in Serbia. Serbia granted the Vatican the right to impose this new Code of Canon Law over all of Serbia.

Msgr. Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII) who was present at that signing of the Concordat unwittingly brought about WWI, and the Vatican wants to declare him a saint?


According to the article in the link you gave:" "The treaty implied the abrogation," Cornwell explains, "of the ancient protectorate rights of the Austro-Hungarian Empire over the Catholic enclave in Serbian territory." This change in Church-State relations effectively supported Serbia's political effort to move away from Austrian dominance. The concordat was signed on June 24, 1914."
If the concordat supported Serbia's effort to move away from Austria, then why would this have caused WWI?
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« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2013, 09:36:34 PM »

Back to the beginnings of the First World War: Several European countries were upset that they could not pick their favored candidate for the Catholic bishopric after 1913. There was an assassination of an Austrian royalty, over this new code of canon law, and apparently this triggered WWI in 1914.

I smell rubbish.  Care to explain how a nationalist Serb killed an Austrian Archduke over Roman Catholic canon law changes?

Yes, I am doing Internet searches as I write this.

Take a gander at this article, and please read it. I will not baby you.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/10/the-holocaust-and-the-catholic-church/305061/

Quote
The emotions prompted by the Serbian Concordat became part of the general groundswell of anti-Serbian anger. There is no indication that Pacelli questioned the dangerous implications of the Serbian negotiations after the event.

This Serbian Concordat was signed FOUR DAYS before Archduke Ferninard was assassinated. This Serbian Concordat gave the Vatican authority over all Roman Catholics in Serbia. Serbia granted the Vatican the right to impose this new Code of Canon Law over all of Serbia.

Msgr. Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII) who was present at that signing of the Concordat unwittingly brought about WWI, and the Vatican wants to declare him a saint?


According to the article in the link you gave:" "The treaty implied the abrogation," Cornwell explains, "of the ancient protectorate rights of the Austro-Hungarian Empire over the Catholic enclave in Serbian territory." This change in Church-State relations effectively supported Serbia's political effort to move away from Austrian dominance. The concordat was signed on June 24, 1914."
If the concordat supported Serbia's effort to move away from Austria, then why would this have caused WWI?

Even though Serbia gained more independence, the Catholics in Serbia would be under Vatican protection. This created a situation similar to Bosnia where the Moslems were under protection. It creates division among the populace. Thus, Serbia was not particularly happy as it was the Archduke who ratified that concordat, not the Serbian populace.

Likewise, the Austrians were not happy as they lost what they felt was their piece of property.
In other words, the Vatican should have minded their own business, but they could not since they felt supreme over all the earth with the declaration of Papal Supremacy in 1870.
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« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2013, 10:59:55 PM »

Maria said:


Quote
If the Vatican had not been so power hungry, and insisted on imposing Papal Supremacy on all nations through its 1917 Code of Canon Law, we might not have had WWI

Care to explain how the new Code of Canon Law of 1917 provoked a war that started 3 years before in 1914?  Grin

Msgr. Pacelli [P. Pius XII] was a canon lawyer who had worked extensively on the revisions of the Holy Canons to prepare this 1917 Code of Canon Law. This Code of Canon Law was already completed by 1913 and was getting ready for publication. Thus, Msgr. Pacelli visited many countries and encouraged/forced these countries to sign a concordat with the Vatican accepting this new Code of Canon Law, especially the portion that deals with the election of Catholic Bishops.

In case you did not read my prior posts, this new election protocol forbade political interference with the election of Catholic Bishops. Prior to this time, countries could propose or force their own favorite candidates upon the local bishops as no Vatican pre-approval was necessary. However, with the dogma of Papal Supremacy and the change in election protocols, the Vatican became more powerful and more of a monarchy. Every candidate for episcopal consecration now had to be pre-approved by Rome before they could be ordained to the Bishopric.

Today, although Catholic priests of a vacant diocese may choose three candidates, the Pope has the final say as to which one is elected. This was not the case before 1913 or 1870, where local Roman Catholic dioceses would choose, elect, and consecrate their candidates for the Bishopric, and then notify Rome after the fact. Note that the ancient Canons of the Orthodox Catholic Church were somewhat followed by Rome before 1870. However, after 800 AD, and especially after 1054, Rome felt that it had the freedom to pick and choose which canons to observe and which ones to cast aside for political expediency.

How did that influence France, Germany, Serbia, Romania, Austro Hungarian to fight each other? This is is baseless.  And how did he force them to adopt it? By threatening them of excomunication?  Grin


Yes, i wonder how this influenced the french and germans to butcher each other for the Alsace-Loraine, or how this influenced Romania to take Transylvania back etc etc.  Cheesy

Once people start fighting, then appeals to reason cease. It becomes time for looting, raping, killing, and grabbing whatever choice pieces of real estate that they can claim. War is hell.


You don't answer to my wondering  Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2013, 11:11:09 PM »

Back to the beginnings of the First World War: Several European countries were upset that they could not pick their favored candidate for the Catholic bishopric after 1913. There was an assassination of an Austrian royalty, over this new code of canon law, and apparently this triggered WWI in 1914.

I smell rubbish.  Care to explain how a nationalist Serb killed an Austrian Archduke over Roman Catholic canon law changes?

Yes, I am doing Internet searches as I write this.

Take a gander at this article, and please read it. I will not baby you.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/10/the-holocaust-and-the-catholic-church/305061/

Quote
The emotions prompted by the Serbian Concordat became part of the general groundswell of anti-Serbian anger. There is no indication that Pacelli questioned the dangerous implications of the Serbian negotiations after the event.

This Serbian Concordat was signed FOUR DAYS before Archduke Ferninard was assassinated. This Serbian Concordat gave the Vatican authority over all Roman Catholics in Serbia. Serbia granted the Vatican the right to impose this new Code of Canon Law over all of Serbia.

Msgr. Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII) who was present at that signing of the Concordat unwittingly brought about WWI, and the Vatican wants to declare him a saint?


According to the article in the link you gave:" "The treaty implied the abrogation," Cornwell explains, "of the ancient protectorate rights of the Austro-Hungarian Empire over the Catholic enclave in Serbian territory." This change in Church-State relations effectively supported Serbia's political effort to move away from Austrian dominance. The concordat was signed on June 24, 1914."
If the concordat supported Serbia's effort to move away from Austria, then why would this have caused WWI?

Even though Serbia gained more independence, the Catholics in Serbia would be under Vatican protection. This created a situation similar to Bosnia where the Moslems were under protection. It creates division among the populace. Thus, Serbia was not particularly happy as it was the Archduke who ratified that concordat, not the Serbian populace.

Likewise, the Austrians were not happy as they lost what they felt was their piece of property.
In other words, the Vatican should have minded their own business, but they could not since they felt supreme over all the earth with the declaration of Papal Supremacy in 1870.

The Archduke Franz Ferdinand ratified a Concordat with the Vatican on behalf of Catholics residing in the Kingdom of Serbia while Emperor Franz Joseph still lived?  The Archduke was heir to the throne, and he wasn't particularly well liked by his uncle.  While historians still debate the causes of WWI and there may never be a final determination, I've never come across an academic argument that the Vatican was somehow at fault.  Haven't come across anything that describes Serbia as being particularly democratic during that period either.   They still had a monarchy and were generally not inclined toward French Enlightenment ideals, though the same group "Black Hand" brutally slaughtered the royalty at one point and installed a monarchy more sympathetic to their nationalist and unification goals.   It kind of sounds like a Protestant inspired conspiracy theory, or a 'popish plot'.  

In any case, it is better for the Melesine to become Orthodox because it is the gold standard of the Christian faith.   Smiley

Who me?  Biased?   Grin
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« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2013, 11:11:22 PM »

Back to the beginnings of the First World War: Several European countries were upset that they could not pick their favored candidate for the Catholic bishopric after 1913. There was an assassination of an Austrian royalty, over this new code of canon law, and apparently this triggered WWI in 1914.

I smell rubbish.  Care to explain how a nationalist Serb killed an Austrian Archduke over Roman Catholic canon law changes?

Yes, I am doing Internet searches as I write this.

Take a gander at this article, and please read it. I will not baby you.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/10/the-holocaust-and-the-catholic-church/305061/

Quote
The emotions prompted by the Serbian Concordat became part of the general groundswell of anti-Serbian anger. There is no indication that Pacelli questioned the dangerous implications of the Serbian negotiations after the event.

This Serbian Concordat was signed FOUR DAYS before Archduke Ferninard was assassinated. This Serbian Concordat gave the Vatican authority over all Roman Catholics in Serbia. Serbia granted the Vatican the right to impose this new Code of Canon Law over all of Serbia.

Msgr. Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII) who was present at that signing of the Concordat unwittingly brought about WWI, and the Vatican wants to declare him a saint?


According to the article in the link you gave:" "The treaty implied the abrogation," Cornwell explains, "of the ancient protectorate rights of the Austro-Hungarian Empire over the Catholic enclave in Serbian territory." This change in Church-State relations effectively supported Serbia's political effort to move away from Austrian dominance. The concordat was signed on June 24, 1914."
If the concordat supported Serbia's effort to move away from Austria, then why would this have caused WWI?

Even though Serbia gained more independence, the Catholics in Serbia would be under Vatican protection. This created a situation similar to Bosnia where the Moslems were under protection. It creates division among the populace. Thus, Serbia was not particularly happy as it was the Archduke who ratified that concordat, not the Serbian populace.

Likewise, the Austrians were not happy as they lost what they felt was their piece of property.
In other words, the Vatican should have minded their own business, but they could not since they felt supreme over all the earth with the declaration of Papal Supremacy in 1870.

To state that his code of canon law was the reason for ww1 is simply nonsense, WW1 was the consequence of national revival and wakening from the end of the 18th century and during all the 19th century.

By the way, in Transylvania, the Romanian catholics were nationalists and wanted to break from Austro Hungary to have a united country with their fellow Romanians who were Orthodox, why? Because of the Transylvanian school and national conscience revival.

Will you also tell us that the Greece war of Independance was because of the code of canon law? That the 2 balkan wars were because of the code of canon law? That Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria fought each other because of the code of canon law? As i said, all nonsense.
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« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2013, 12:28:46 AM »

This line in the article was all I needed to know what to expect:

Quote
Its author, John Cornwell, a contributor to Britain's distinguished Catholic publication The Tablet, embarked on the project,

The Tablet?!?! LOL, really? The paper probably caught fire after they put distinguished next to it.

The motivation of Papal appointment is the same as the motivation for dogmatizing papal infallibility. That is to provide a stronger solution to the obvious upcoming problem of modernism. Do you think the churches would have faired better, if they could still select their own bishops? The same churches that have clown masses? Instead, you had effects like Pope Benedict xvi removing an average of 3 bishops a month throughout his pontificate. A smashingly easier way to clean house.
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« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2013, 07:56:53 AM »

To those reading this thread who know little of the first world war, I suggest you read The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman. Fifty years after its publication, the Pulitzer prize winning book remains the definitive, non-academic work on the subject.  http://www.amazon.com/Guns-August-Pulitzer-Prize-Winning-Outbreak/dp/0345476093

In addition to being informative it is a great read.

As we approach the centennial of the first installment of the 20th century's over eighty years of catastrophic hot and cold wars there remains unfinished business which existed at the eve of that event which influences current events.

It is fair to assert that smoldering religious issues were among the "causus belli". However, they were hardly the only ones and more often than not they merely masked the underlying political and economic ones and the gross miscalculations which ultimately led to the war.

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« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2013, 09:00:37 AM »

RC Canon Law § 1753 - if a local bishop feels the need of doing so, he is allowed to use sulphur mustard instead of an usual incest in his parishes.

RC Canon Law § 1754 - Serbs are wussies.
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« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2013, 09:47:37 AM »

OK, I have looked through the comments on this thread and it is disturbing how little people know about the history of WWI.  The belief that WWI started because of Roman Catholic canon law is preposterous at best and disingenuous at worst.  Seriously, if the Catholics followed the canons they'd still be Orthodox so "Roman Catholic canon law" is an oxymoronic term.

As for the causes of WWI, one must look closer to home.  On June 18th, 1914 in the Mexican Revolution the Constitutionales took San Luis Potosi.  The Constitutionals fought against General Huerta who was supplied by the Germans.  Within 10 days a Serbian Nationalist offed Archduke Franz Ferdiand - the cousin of Maximillian I of Mexico's grandnephew's fourth aunt - and the Mexican Revolution spread to Europe. 

Coincidence?  Colour me surprised if so.
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« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2013, 10:41:42 AM »

Actually, it was the sinking of the Titanic that brought on WWI. Naval supremacy was all-important in the early 20th century. The star of British ship building proved to be a disaster. This was the signal for Germany which was in an expansionist mode the impetus to engineer events that triggered war within a very few years.

(No, I don't plan to defend what I've written here  Wink - just pointing out that it's easy to see what we expect and want to see. Reality is more complex than that.)
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« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2013, 11:13:04 AM »

Actually, it was the sinking of the Titanic that brought on WWI. Naval supremacy was all-important in the early 20th century. The star of British ship building proved to be a disaster. This was the signal for Germany which was in an expansionist mode the impetus to engineer events that triggered war within a very few years.

(No, I don't plan to defend what I've written here  Wink - just pointing out that it's easy to see what we expect and want to see. Reality is more complex than that.)

Shipbuilding.  Interesting.  Do you think that the British were rebuilding their navy after the US was forced to use nuclear weapons at the Delaware River on Christmas Day to finish the War of 1812 which was fought to halt the spread of Communism when England invaded the Republic of Vermont?
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« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2013, 11:26:39 AM »

There is a reason why folks look for explanations for certain events, like WWI--such events do not make sense to them. I do not blame them in the case of WWI, a war that appears to have been started by leaders afflicted by the same mental illness. I like to liken events like the WWI to tremors and earthquakes that are mere manifestations of primary causes, such as the shifting of earth's plates. I suspect that the reason was the changeover from the agricultural to industrial age.  
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« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2013, 01:07:09 PM »

Actually, it was the sinking of the Titanic that brought on WWI. Naval supremacy was all-important in the early 20th century. The star of British ship building proved to be a disaster. This was the signal for Germany which was in an expansionist mode the impetus to engineer events that triggered war within a very few years.

(No, I don't plan to defend what I've written here  Wink - just pointing out that it's easy to see what we expect and want to see. Reality is more complex than that.)

Shipbuilding.  Interesting.  Do you think that the British were rebuilding their navy after the US was forced to use nuclear weapons at the Delaware River on Christmas Day to finish the War of 1812 which was fought to halt the spread of Communism when England invaded the Republic of Vermont?
I don't think that's likely. There was enough self-inflicted damage by the still largely untested nuclear weapons that US ship-building and other facets of commerce were disrupted enough to lead to the effective draw between the two warring nations. However, it must be realized that the UK supported Spain against Napoleon's invasion of that country. Spain required assistance to fend off the Hawaiians who had been emboldened by their defeat of Captain James Cook in the previous century, and were preparing to lend naval support to the inland Republic of Paraguay that had just declared its independence from Spain. This led to the superiority of the British in the southern hemisphere, and within a couple of decades the establishment of a colony on the Falkland Islands.
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« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2013, 01:13:07 PM »

Actually, it was the sinking of the Titanic that brought on WWI. Naval supremacy was all-important in the early 20th century. The star of British ship building proved to be a disaster. This was the signal for Germany which was in an expansionist mode the impetus to engineer events that triggered war within a very few years.

(No, I don't plan to defend what I've written here  Wink - just pointing out that it's easy to see what we expect and want to see. Reality is more complex than that.)

Shipbuilding.  Interesting.  Do you think that the British were rebuilding their navy after the US was forced to use nuclear weapons at the Delaware River on Christmas Day to finish the War of 1812 which was fought to halt the spread of Communism when England invaded the Republic of Vermont?
I don't think that's likely. There was enough self-inflicted damage by the still largely untested nuclear weapons that US ship-building and other facets of commerce were disrupted enough to lead to the effective draw between the two warring nations. However, it must be realized that the UK supported Spain against Napoleon's invasion of that country. Spain required assistance to fend off the Hawaiians who had been emboldened by their defeat of Captain James Cook in the previous century, and were preparing to lend naval support to the inland Republic of Paraguay that had just declared its independence from Spain. This led to the superiority of the British in the southern hemisphere, and within a couple of decades the establishment of a colony on the Falkland Islands.

That is brilliant.  I never put two and two together with the nuclear strikes at Lake Champlain and Fort Ticonderoga with the Peninsular War and Captain Cook's involvement in the Chaco War!  (Damnable Hawaiians and their mustard gas!) 

Did you write your dissertation on this, may I ask?
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« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2013, 01:28:57 PM »

There is a reason why folks look for explanations for certain events, like WWI--such events do not make sense to them. I do not blame them in the case of WWI, a war that appears to have been started by leaders afflicted by the same mental illness. I like to liken events like the WWI to tremors and earthquakes that are mere manifestations of primary causes, such as the shifting of earth's plates. I suspect that the reason was the changeover from the agricultural to industrial age.  

You must read Kissinger's "Diplomacy".  It was all a matter of balance of power.  The various powers set up the dominoes and all it too was one good hard blow to send them all toppling.

France was still less than pleased with that whole Franco-Prussian war thing, but Bismarck was the king of realpolitik, and kept France isolated.  England and the US were plenty happy to be isolationist with England's disdain for things on the continent and the US's bizarre exceptionalism.  Germany and Russia had a nonaggression pact which kept them out of the game, and Austria knew that they were Germany's prison currency so did whatever the Prussians told them to.  (Prusso-Austrian was kept them in check.)  The Danes who had also been smacked around by Germany in the 1870's and by the British in the 1800-1810's.  They just wanted out.

Well, Kaiser Bill was a bit of a doofus so he challenged England navally and started looking at overseas expansion (thinks Bismarck avoided) so they started getting antsy (genesisone touched on this above - despite our silliness, his first bit I quoted is factual).  He let the nonaggression pact expire with Russia who then needed an ally (and France was more then happy to help!).

So you have France and Russia in the Red corner and Germany and Austria in the blue.  Austria and Russia had both been eyeing the Balkans at the expense of the Sick Man of Europe.  Serbia shoots Ferdi and the Germans tell the Austrians they have their back and they get ready to go all gangwar on Serbia.  The Russians say they will get involved since Serbia is Orthodox (and a VERY convenient political ally in the Balkans) and the Austrians are cool with that b/c they got the Germans behind them.

France tells Russia that if they still want to go at it, the Frogs will have their back, and now you have a clusterfudge of diplomacy.  England still wants to stay out but says if Germany attacks Belgium they will have to come in.  Germany (did I mention that Kaiser Bill was a dingleberry?) invades Belgium just like the kid whose mommy tells him that if he sings one move verse of John Jacob Jingleheimerschmidt while she's driving on icy roads in Western Nebraska...and England gets up in this.  When Russia goes down they need a new ally so the Brits and Wilson fill a passenger liner to the gills with explosives and tell all the civillians to ignore that Kraut ambassador on the docks.  Germans can no longer be honourable and let passengers off since the Brits have been using Q-Ships and the boat goes kablooey with the help of a torpedo. 

But I digress, WWI was a perfect storm but it is very understandable when you take into account that Europe was embroiled in power politics and any nation that got isolated was toast on the international scale.  Everyone tried to balance one another out with evermore entangled alliances.  So it really doesn't matter whether the powder keg was lit by a Papal Canon decree or if the Serbs just gakked some Archduke for the shiites and grins of it, or if as I suggested humourously that it was an extension of the Mexican Revolution...all that matters is that the sides were balanced and everyone was itching to fight. 

Right now the US has hegemonic rule (slipping away, though it be) but in the near future we are going to have a larger number of more or less evenly balanced players on the world stage and they will probably get into alliances once again just to maintain the status quo.  I say, give us 50 years and we'll have another WWI-esque war.
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« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2013, 01:58:34 PM »

That is BS.  You are calling her a liar, and therefor the burden of proof is on you.


There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
Okay, so they do. I don't purport to know anything about this code of canon law nor about the Melkite and Eastern Catholic hatred for it, so I'm not going to comment on any of that. I just think you should either submit much stronger proof of your claim that this code of canon law helped trigger World War I or disavow your claim as the piece of garbage history it is.

If you had read the book, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, with an open mind, you would see the connection. But I guess that is too much to ask.

I cannot quote major portions of Cornwell's book without incurring copyright violations, and I will not waste my time babying people who refuse to read and learn history.
You expect me to go the library at 11:00 on a Saturday night and then read that book from cover to cover in just 15 minutes to see the connection you want me to see!!?  Shocked Huh Yes, that is too much to ask. Way too much to ask. Roll Eyes

You made the claim. You therefore bear the burden of proof to offer evidence for your claim. Doing nothing more than tell me to read a book is making me do your dirty work for you, which I refuse to do. You either submit to this thread proof for your outlandish claim or concede that your claim will be thrown out with yesterday's garbage. It's really that simple.
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« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2013, 02:03:59 PM »

Vamrat--While you have given us a good decription of what happened, I continue to think that the balance of power explanation is but an intermediate one. We should dig deeper.
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« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2013, 02:14:44 PM »

When Russia goes down they need a new ally so the Brits and Wilson fill a passenger liner to the gills with explosives and tell all the civillians to ignore that Kraut ambassador on the docks.  Germans can no longer be honourable and let passengers off since the Brits have been using Q-Ships and the boat goes kablooey with the help of a torpedo. 

Ah, finally someone who admits why the Lusitania went down so quickly.  I never believed the old torpedo setting off coal dust explanation.  Even the U-boat Kaptain himself was amazed that one little torpedo made such a big boom.  Mussi terrorists were not the first to shield their bad stuff with civilians.  Way to go USA.
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« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2013, 02:16:57 PM »

That is BS.  You are calling her a liar, and therefor the burden of proof is on you.


There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
Okay, so they do. I don't purport to know anything about this code of canon law nor about the Melkite and Eastern Catholic hatred for it, so I'm not going to comment on any of that. I just think you should either submit much stronger proof of your claim that this code of canon law helped trigger World War I or disavow your claim as the piece of garbage history it is.

If you had read the book, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, with an open mind, you would see the connection. But I guess that is too much to ask.

I cannot quote major portions of Cornwell's book without incurring copyright violations, and I will not waste my time babying people who refuse to read and learn history.
You expect me to go the library at 11:00 on a Saturday night and then read that book from cover to cover in just 15 minutes to see the connection you want me to see!!?  Shocked Huh Yes, that is too much to ask. Way too much to ask. Roll Eyes

You made the claim. You therefore bear the burden of proof to offer evidence for your claim. Doing nothing more than tell me to read a book is making me do your dirty work for you, which I refuse to do. You either submit to this thread proof for your outlandish claim or concede that your claim will be thrown out with yesterday's garbage. It's really that simple.

He is doing no such thing.  While I think he's being a bit unreasonable, he most certainly is not calling her a liar.  Lazy, maybe, but not a liar.
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« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2013, 02:18:35 PM »

This thread now reminds me of IR comprehensive exams.
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« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2013, 02:27:22 PM »

That is BS, Punch. I'm not calling anyone a liar.

That is BS.  You are calling her a liar, and therefor the burden of proof is on you.


There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
Okay, so they do. I don't purport to know anything about this code of canon law nor about the Melkite and Eastern Catholic hatred for it, so I'm not going to comment on any of that. I just think you should either submit much stronger proof of your claim that this code of canon law helped trigger World War I or disavow your claim as the piece of garbage history it is.

If you had read the book, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, with an open mind, you would see the connection. But I guess that is too much to ask.

I cannot quote major portions of Cornwell's book without incurring copyright violations, and I will not waste my time babying people who refuse to read and learn history.
You expect me to go the library at 11:00 on a Saturday night and then read that book from cover to cover in just 15 minutes to see the connection you want me to see!!?  Shocked Huh Yes, that is too much to ask. Way too much to ask. Roll Eyes

You made the claim. You therefore bear the burden of proof to offer evidence for your claim. Doing nothing more than tell me to read a book is making me do your dirty work for you, which I refuse to do. You either submit to this thread proof for your outlandish claim or concede that your claim will be thrown out with yesterday's garbage. It's really that simple.
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« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2013, 02:28:17 PM »

Actually, it was the sinking of the Titanic that brought on WWI. Naval supremacy was all-important in the early 20th century. The star of British ship building proved to be a disaster. This was the signal for Germany which was in an expansionist mode the impetus to engineer events that triggered war within a very few years.

(No, I don't plan to defend what I've written here  Wink - just pointing out that it's easy to see what we expect and want to see. Reality is more complex than that.)

Shipbuilding.  Interesting.  Do you think that the British were rebuilding their navy after the US was forced to use nuclear weapons at the Delaware River on Christmas Day to finish the War of 1812 which was fought to halt the spread of Communism when England invaded the Republic of Vermont?

Was that before or after first contact with Klingons?
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« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2013, 02:31:46 PM »

Vamrat--While you have given us a good decription of what happened, I continue to think that the balance of power explanation is but an intermediate one. We should dig deeper.

Indeed.  In history you always must!

I think this goes all the way back to the Treaty of Westphalia and the creation of the Nation-State as this set up how modern nations operate diplomatically.  While the rise of Non-State Actors is changing the face of modern politics and diplomacy I don't think you can begin to look at any political exchange involving Europeans or Europeanized people between 1648 and 1945 without taking this into account (probably later but I view 1945 as a changing point in history that we haven't seen through to its conclusion yet).

That out of the way, I think the Napoleonic Wars were the next major evolution in modern European history.  Especially the Concert of Europe / Vienna System that followed it.  Before that you only had a few major players in Europe, the ones that unified earliest - England, France, and Spain.  But after the Napoleonic Wars you had a lot more unification.  Russia had been a player in Europe since at least the Seven Years War but with their major role in the Napoleonic Wars their position was cemented.  The old rotting Holy Roman Empire (which was neither Holy, Roman, nor and Empire really) was replaced by a bunch of small German states (pretty much what it had been before) but now with Prussia as the obvious front-runner.  The Austro-Hungarians cemented their role in the new Europe (as the Habsburgs they had been playing a major role in the old Europe) and began expanding throughout central Europe.  By the late 1800 the old small states were mostly gobbled up, especially after the unifactions of Germany and Italy in the 1860's and 70's.  Pretty much every big name in Europe in the late 1800's was represented in WWI - Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, Austria-Hungary, and the old holdover from the Middle Ages - the Ottoman Empire.  

With the breakdown of the Concert of Europe you have all these major powers who need to find someway to maintain the peace that Metternich and his successors had been doing since 1815.  Basically, any two powers in Europe could beat any single nation-state, so any time one pair allied, the most likely target had to find a pairing as well.  Thus Germany + Austria had to become France + Russia.  Italy might have been able to shift the balance but the Germans were just too strong, but were matched nicely by the British as soon as the Kaiser gave them a reason to get involved.  I think having the Ottomans balanced the Italians out.  Once Russia went down the Western Allies needed to redress the balance and were skillful in getting the US involved.  

I think that the balance of powers was the powder keg and this need for balance was caused by no one country being powerful enough to stand on its own against other powers.
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« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2013, 02:35:54 PM »

Actually, it was the sinking of the Titanic that brought on WWI. Naval supremacy was all-important in the early 20th century. The star of British ship building proved to be a disaster. This was the signal for Germany which was in an expansionist mode the impetus to engineer events that triggered war within a very few years.

(No, I don't plan to defend what I've written here  Wink - just pointing out that it's easy to see what we expect and want to see. Reality is more complex than that.)

Shipbuilding.  Interesting.  Do you think that the British were rebuilding their navy after the US was forced to use nuclear weapons at the Delaware River on Christmas Day to finish the War of 1812 which was fought to halt the spread of Communism when England invaded the Republic of Vermont?

Was that before or after first contact with Klingons?

Well before.  I believe that contact was made with Vulcans well before contact with the Kingons.  Contact with the Vulcans goes back to that time Ben Franklin was flying that kite in a tornado down in Kansas and it hit Warp 1 sending the girl he was hitting on to Australia (they called it "Oz" in the History Channel documentary I saw, but I heard some New Zealanders referring to Australians as Ozzies once).
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« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2013, 07:16:06 PM »

Actually, it was the sinking of the Titanic that brought on WWI. Naval supremacy was all-important in the early 20th century. The star of British ship building proved to be a disaster. This was the signal for Germany which was in an expansionist mode the impetus to engineer events that triggered war within a very few years.

(No, I don't plan to defend what I've written here  Wink - just pointing out that it's easy to see what we expect and want to see. Reality is more complex than that.)

Shipbuilding.  Interesting.  Do you think that the British were rebuilding their navy after the US was forced to use nuclear weapons at the Delaware River on Christmas Day to finish the War of 1812 which was fought to halt the spread of Communism when England invaded the Republic of Vermont?
I don't think that's likely. There was enough self-inflicted damage by the still largely untested nuclear weapons that US ship-building and other facets of commerce were disrupted enough to lead to the effective draw between the two warring nations. However, it must be realized that the UK supported Spain against Napoleon's invasion of that country. Spain required assistance to fend off the Hawaiians who had been emboldened by their defeat of Captain James Cook in the previous century, and were preparing to lend naval support to the inland Republic of Paraguay that had just declared its independence from Spain. This led to the superiority of the British in the southern hemisphere, and within a couple of decades the establishment of a colony on the Falkland Islands.

That is brilliant.  I never put two and two together with the nuclear strikes at Lake Champlain and Fort Ticonderoga with the Peninsular War and Captain Cook's involvement in the Chaco War!  (Damnable Hawaiians and their mustard gas!) 

Did you write your dissertation on this, may I ask?
No. My focus of studies was the Nazca Lines. It turns out that they were drawn by adventurers from the Khmer Empire who tunneled directly through the Earth's core (check Google maps to see that this is correct). The key to that was that there is some evidence that the artwork bears resemblances to that used in the khit cloth for which the Ubon Ratchathani Province of Thailand is well known. This connects to my knowledge of WWI in that in the late 19th century, Thailand was on the verge of announcing the development of laser weapons of mass destruction. Britain and Germany felt obliged to do battle with each other in order to commandeer that prize.

I know all of this thanks to my years at Grassy Knoll University (Roswell, NM, campus), with a semester at the International Loch Ness Institute of Marine Biological Research. I am also indebted to the Sasquatch Academy of Advanced Studies, located in Old Crow, Yukon, for an internship in historical fact finding and analysis.
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