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« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2013, 01:54:35 AM »

question 1
Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing?
Stop misrepresenting the Catholic faith.

Good idea.

Naturally, everyone thinks he/she is in the true church; but it's clear that sedevacantist (with the aid of a few of the Orthodox on this forum) has been making posts that make it sound like he is (if you will) Catholic-in-the-usual-sense-of-the-word. That really ought to stop.
we're not here to sort out your schisms.
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« Reply #91 on: March 27, 2013, 04:22:16 AM »

thanks for the replies, I believe it's clear from the bible the Catholic teaching is the correct one, baptism should be done asap, 1 month is the latest
In the very last INSTRUCTION THAT JESUS CHRIST GIVES THE APOSTLES BEFORE LEAVING THIS WORLD – He gives His Apostles two commands: to teach all nations and to baptize.  This should tell everyone something about the importance and the necessity of baptism.  Baptism is bound up, by Jesus Himself, with the very command to teach all nations the Christian faith.  That’s because no one can be saved without it, as we see in St. Mark’s Gospel.

 

Mark 16:15-16- “And he (Jesus) said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

 

Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, which indicates that the unbaptized will not be saved.  But some ask: why didn’t Jesus say, “he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned,” after saying he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?  The answer is that those who don’t believe are not going to get baptized, so it’s not necessary to mention baptism again.

 1 Peter 3:20-21- “… when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also…”
In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

You can not enter the kingdom of God unless you are baptised, let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.

If it was as clear cut as that, you'd be condemning the Good Thief to hell and calling Christ a liar.

James
The Good Thief cannot be used as an example of baptism of blood primarily because the Good Thief died under the Old Law, not the New Law; he died before the Law of Baptism was instituted by Jesus Christ after the Resurrection.  For that reason, the Good Thief, like the Holy Innocents, constitutes no argument against the necessity of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.

So what of all the unbaptised martyr saints? You do realise that a 'baptism of blood' is not a literal baptism right? The situation simply is not as clear cut as you maintain, thankfully. I'm not sure I'd consider a God who condemned those who were unable to get baptised to hell as being one worthy of worship. You're quite right that baptism is necessary for us. Nothing is necessary for God. He can save whomsoever he wills, baptised or unbaptised, and we know that He wills all men to be saved. And goodness only knows why you keep quoting post-Schism RC councils here as though they are trump cards that prove your point - you do understand that we're as unlikely to be swayed by such arguments as we are to be convinced of sola scriptura based on the words of Martin Luther, don't you?

James
all you have to do is ask

THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH ALL TAUGHT BAPTISMAL REGENERATION AND THAT BAPTISM IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION

 

From the very beginning of the Christian Church, the fathers of the Church unanimously believed in the necessity of water baptism and baptismal regeneration.  They based that belief on the teaching of the New Testament, John 3:5 and Apostolic Tradition.  Here are just four passages.  One could quote dozens of others.

 

In the Letter of Barnabas, dated as early as 70 A.D., we read:

 

“… we descend into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our heart…” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:34.)

 

In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

 

In 155 A.D., in First Apology, 61, St. Justin the Martyr writes:

 

“… they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn… in the name of God… they receive the washing of water.  For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’  The reason for doing this we have learned from the apostles.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:126.)

 

St. Aphraates, the oldest of the Syrian fathers, writes in his Treatises, 336 A.D.:

 

“For from baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ… For the Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of re-birth.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1: 681.)

Could you answer the rest of my questions and not just the bit you find easy? I'm aware that baptism is necessary for us - it's just not necessary for God. I don't need you to come up with patristic quotes in response to my aside about your constantly quoting schismatic councils as authoritative. I'd much rather see you answer the question about unbaptised saints and whether or not you belief God is limited by necessity (i.e. not omnipotent).

James
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« Reply #92 on: March 27, 2013, 04:30:59 AM »

So an elder say better kill a baptized child than an unborn baby if really there is need to kill somebody anyhow better no killing. I am reffering to aborted babies. Abortion is erased through confession.
That is absolutely brilliant.
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« Reply #93 on: March 27, 2013, 09:12:27 AM »

One thing for certain - "knowledge" about religion may bring out the "crazy" in people. Thank God for faith, hope and love.
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« Reply #94 on: March 27, 2013, 09:29:04 AM »


St. John of Damascus is one of my favorite Scholastics.  Smiley

It's true Sad

As someone with a burning hatred of Aristotle I think that was St. John's only fault.
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« Reply #95 on: March 27, 2013, 09:44:26 AM »

question 1
Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing?
Stop misrepresenting the Catholic faith.

Good idea.

Naturally, everyone thinks he/she is in the true church; but it's clear that sedevacantist (with the aid of a few of the Orthodox on this forum) has been making posts that make it sound like he is (if you will) Catholic-in-the-usual-sense-of-the-word. That really ought to stop.
we're not here to sort out your schisms.

You're preaching to the choir. Your fellow Orthodox are the ones who need to hear that.
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« Reply #96 on: March 27, 2013, 09:45:00 AM »

question 1
Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing?
Stop misrepresenting the Catholic faith.

Good idea.

Naturally, everyone thinks he/she is in the true church; but it's clear that sedevacantist (with the aid of a few of the Orthodox on this forum) has been making posts that make it sound like he is (if you will) Catholic-in-the-usual-sense-of-the-word. That really ought to stop.
how about you actually prove something I posted is wrong

It's not a matter of proving that it is wrong to call you a Catholic.

Look at it this way: a Lutheran saying "I'm a Catholic" must be considered correct if one accepts a definition of "Catholic" that included Lutherans. But the definition of "Catholic" on this forum is in terms of the pope (Pope Francis), hence a Lutheran isn't Catholic (according to that definition), nor are you.
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« Reply #97 on: March 27, 2013, 10:40:53 AM »


St. John of Damascus is one of my favorite Scholastics.  Smiley

It's true Sad

As someone with a burning hatred of Aristotle I think that was St. John's only fault.
Burning?
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« Reply #98 on: March 27, 2013, 10:40:53 AM »

thanks for the replies, I believe it's clear from the bible the Catholic teaching is the correct one, baptism should be done asap, 1 month is the latest
In the very last INSTRUCTION THAT JESUS CHRIST GIVES THE APOSTLES BEFORE LEAVING THIS WORLD – He gives His Apostles two commands: to teach all nations and to baptize.  This should tell everyone something about the importance and the necessity of baptism.  Baptism is bound up, by Jesus Himself, with the very command to teach all nations the Christian faith.  That’s because no one can be saved without it, as we see in St. Mark’s Gospel.

 

Mark 16:15-16- “And he (Jesus) said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

 

Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, which indicates that the unbaptized will not be saved.  But some ask: why didn’t Jesus say, “he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned,” after saying he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?  The answer is that those who don’t believe are not going to get baptized, so it’s not necessary to mention baptism again.

 1 Peter 3:20-21- “… when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also…”
In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

You can not enter the kingdom of God unless you are baptised, let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.

If it was as clear cut as that, you'd be condemning the Good Thief to hell and calling Christ a liar.

James
The Good Thief cannot be used as an example of baptism of blood primarily because the Good Thief died under the Old Law, not the New Law; he died before the Law of Baptism was instituted by Jesus Christ after the Resurrection.  For that reason, the Good Thief, like the Holy Innocents, constitutes no argument against the necessity of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.

So what of all the unbaptised martyr saints? You do realise that a 'baptism of blood' is not a literal baptism right? The situation simply is not as clear cut as you maintain, thankfully. I'm not sure I'd consider a God who condemned those who were unable to get baptised to hell as being one worthy of worship. You're quite right that baptism is necessary for us. Nothing is necessary for God. He can save whomsoever he wills, baptised or unbaptised, and we know that He wills all men to be saved. And goodness only knows why you keep quoting post-Schism RC councils here as though they are trump cards that prove your point - you do understand that we're as unlikely to be swayed by such arguments as we are to be convinced of sola scriptura based on the words of Martin Luther, don't you?

James
all you have to do is ask

THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH ALL TAUGHT BAPTISMAL REGENERATION AND THAT BAPTISM IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION

 

From the very beginning of the Christian Church, the fathers of the Church unanimously believed in the necessity of water baptism and baptismal regeneration.  They based that belief on the teaching of the New Testament, John 3:5 and Apostolic Tradition.  Here are just four passages.  One could quote dozens of others.

 

In the Letter of Barnabas, dated as early as 70 A.D., we read:

 

“… we descend into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our heart…” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:34.)

 

In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

 

In 155 A.D., in First Apology, 61, St. Justin the Martyr writes:

 

“… they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn… in the name of God… they receive the washing of water.  For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’  The reason for doing this we have learned from the apostles.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:126.)

 

St. Aphraates, the oldest of the Syrian fathers, writes in his Treatises, 336 A.D.:

 

“For from baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ… For the Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of re-birth.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1: 681.)

So, you believe, in addition to all Catholics since the 1960s, that St. Thomas Aquinas is also a heretic.  See below.

(from the Summa Theologica)


Objection 1. It seems that no man can be saved without Baptism. For our Lord said (John 3:5): "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." But those alone are saved who enter God's kingdom. Therefore none can be saved without Baptism, by which a man is born again of water and the Holy Ghost.

Objection 2. Further, in the book De Eccl. Dogm. xli, it is written: "We believe that no catechumen, though he die in his good works, will have eternal life, except he suffer martyrdom, which contains all the sacramental virtue of Baptism." But if it were possible for anyone to be saved without Baptism, this would be the case specially with catechumens who are credited with good works, for they seem to have the "faith that worketh by charity" (Gal. 5:6). Therefore it seems that none can be saved without Baptism.

Objection 3. Further, as stated above (1; 65, 4), the sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation. Now that is necessary "without which something cannot be" (Metaph. v). Therefore it seems that none can obtain salvation without Baptism.

On the contrary, Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that "some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit." Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification.

I answer that, The sacrament or Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free-will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.

Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

Reply to Objection 1. As it is written (1 Kgs. 16:7), "man seeth those things that appear, but the Lord beholdeth the heart." Now a man who desires to be "born again of water and the Holy Ghost" by Baptism, is regenerated in heart though not in body. thus the Apostle says (Rm. 2:29) that "the circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God."

Reply to Objection 2. No man obtains eternal life unless he be free from all guilt and debt of punishment. Now this plenary absolution is given when a man receives Baptism, or suffers martyrdom: for which reason is it stated that martyrdom "contains all the sacramental virtue of Baptism," i.e. as to the full deliverance from guilt and punishment. Suppose, therefore, a catechumen to have the desire for Baptism (else he could not be said to die in his good works, which cannot be without "faith that worketh by charity"), such a one, were he to die, would not forthwith come to eternal life, but would suffer punishment for his past sins, "but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire" as is stated 1 Cor. 3:15.

Reply to Objection 3. The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed" (Augustine, Enarr. in Ps. 57).
This
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« Reply #99 on: March 27, 2013, 08:37:52 PM »

question 1
Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing?
Stop misrepresenting the Catholic faith.

Good idea.

Naturally, everyone thinks he/she is in the true church; but it's clear that sedevacantist (with the aid of a few of the Orthodox on this forum) has been making posts that make it sound like he is (if you will) Catholic-in-the-usual-sense-of-the-word. That really ought to stop.
we're not here to sort out your schisms.

You're preaching to the choir. Your fellow Orthodox are the ones who need to hear that.

Like spectators in a sporting event, we like telling the coach, players and referees what to do  Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #100 on: March 27, 2013, 09:05:33 PM »

thanks for the replies, I believe it's clear from the bible the Catholic teaching is the correct one, baptism should be done asap, 1 month is the latest
In the very last INSTRUCTION THAT JESUS CHRIST GIVES THE APOSTLES BEFORE LEAVING THIS WORLD – He gives His Apostles two commands: to teach all nations and to baptize.  This should tell everyone something about the importance and the necessity of baptism.  Baptism is bound up, by Jesus Himself, with the very command to teach all nations the Christian faith.  That’s because no one can be saved without it, as we see in St. Mark’s Gospel.

 

Mark 16:15-16- “And he (Jesus) said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

 

Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, which indicates that the unbaptized will not be saved.  But some ask: why didn’t Jesus say, “he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned,” after saying he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?  The answer is that those who don’t believe are not going to get baptized, so it’s not necessary to mention baptism again.

 1 Peter 3:20-21- “… when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also…”
In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

You can not enter the kingdom of God unless you are baptised, let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.

If it was as clear cut as that, you'd be condemning the Good Thief to hell and calling Christ a liar.

James
The Good Thief cannot be used as an example of baptism of blood primarily because the Good Thief died under the Old Law, not the New Law; he died before the Law of Baptism was instituted by Jesus Christ after the Resurrection.  For that reason, the Good Thief, like the Holy Innocents, constitutes no argument against the necessity of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.

So what of all the unbaptised martyr saints? You do realise that a 'baptism of blood' is not a literal baptism right? The situation simply is not as clear cut as you maintain, thankfully. I'm not sure I'd consider a God who condemned those who were unable to get baptised to hell as being one worthy of worship. You're quite right that baptism is necessary for us. Nothing is necessary for God. He can save whomsoever he wills, baptised or unbaptised, and we know that He wills all men to be saved. And goodness only knows why you keep quoting post-Schism RC councils here as though they are trump cards that prove your point - you do understand that we're as unlikely to be swayed by such arguments as we are to be convinced of sola scriptura based on the words of Martin Luther, don't you?

James
all you have to do is ask

THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH ALL TAUGHT BAPTISMAL REGENERATION AND THAT BAPTISM IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION

 

From the very beginning of the Christian Church, the fathers of the Church unanimously believed in the necessity of water baptism and baptismal regeneration.  They based that belief on the teaching of the New Testament, John 3:5 and Apostolic Tradition.  Here are just four passages.  One could quote dozens of others.

 

In the Letter of Barnabas, dated as early as 70 A.D., we read:

 

“… we descend into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our heart…” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:34.)

 

In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

 

In 155 A.D., in First Apology, 61, St. Justin the Martyr writes:

 

“… they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn… in the name of God… they receive the washing of water.  For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’  The reason for doing this we have learned from the apostles.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:126.)

 

St. Aphraates, the oldest of the Syrian fathers, writes in his Treatises, 336 A.D.:

 

“For from baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ… For the Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of re-birth.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1: 681.)

Could you answer the rest of my questions and not just the bit you find easy? I'm aware that baptism is necessary for us - it's just not necessary for God. I don't need you to come up with patristic quotes in response to my aside about your constantly quoting schismatic councils as authoritative. I'd much rather see you answer the question about unbaptised saints and whether or not you belief God is limited by necessity (i.e. not omnipotent).

James
You are looking at the issue in the wrong way , of course God is not limited, He can do what He wishes, and He told us we had to be baptised to be saved, I gave you biblical passages which are clear, I gave you the early church fathers, why can't you accept God's word? give me an example of the unbaptised saint and I will look into it
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« Reply #101 on: March 27, 2013, 09:07:20 PM »

give me an example of the unbaptised saint and I will look into it

All from the Old Testament, St. Dismas, the 40th one of the 40 Martyrs of Sebaste - some that come to mind
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« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2013, 09:27:08 PM »

question 1
Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing?
Stop misrepresenting the Catholic faith.

Good idea.

Naturally, everyone thinks he/she is in the true church; but it's clear that sedevacantist (with the aid of a few of the Orthodox on this forum) has been making posts that make it sound like he is (if you will) Catholic-in-the-usual-sense-of-the-word. That really ought to stop.
how about you actually prove something I posted is wrong

It's not a matter of proving that it is wrong to call you a Catholic.

Look at it this way: a Lutheran saying "I'm a Catholic" must be considered correct if one accepts a definition of "Catholic" that included Lutherans. But the definition of "Catholic" on this forum is in terms of the pope (Pope Francis), hence a Lutheran isn't Catholic (according to that definition), nor are you.
the definition of Catholic on this forum is in terms of the pope??? what are you talking about? I suggest you do research on what the popes have declared concerning the jews

Pope's Note to Chief Rabbi of Rome for Feast of Passover
http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/pope-s-note-to-chief-rabbi-of-rome-for-feast-of-passover


". I ask you to pray for me, as I assure you of my prayers for you, confident that we can deepen [our] ties of mutual esteem and friendship. - FRANCIS

contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
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« Reply #103 on: March 27, 2013, 09:28:03 PM »

give me an example of the unbaptised saint and I will look into it

All from the Old Testament, St. Dismas, the 40th one of the 40 Martyrs of Sebaste - some that come to mind
They died under the old law, just like the good thief before Jesus commanded everyone to be baptised.
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« Reply #104 on: March 27, 2013, 09:40:46 PM »

give me an example of the unbaptised saint and I will look into it

All from the Old Testament, St. Dismas, the 40th one of the 40 Martyrs of Sebaste - some that come to mind
They died under the old law, just like the good thief before Jesus commanded everyone to be baptised.

The Martyrs of Sebaste were definitely post-Ascension.
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« Reply #105 on: March 28, 2013, 04:56:42 AM »

give me an example of the unbaptised saint and I will look into it

All from the Old Testament, St. Dismas, the 40th one of the 40 Martyrs of Sebaste - some that come to mind
They died under the old law, just like the good thief before Jesus commanded everyone to be baptised.

How about St. Genesius of Rome? Or what about St. Emerentiana of Rome and St. Victor of Braga, both martyred as catechumens? Or what about the soldier converted by and immediately executed with St. Alban, or all the soldiers converted by the example of St. George and then immediately martyred? Are you saying that the Church, has been wrong from the earliest centuries and none of these are saved at all? Thankfully the Church has never held to the belief that you appear to and which would seem to make God a monster, unless you say He is bound by some necessity which renders Him unable to save the unbaptised.

Do you honestly not see that God saying to us 'you must be baptised' does not mean that he can't/won't save us if we are unable to do so. Are you a parent? If so, I'd hope you'd see this only too clearly. If I tell my children 'Do X or it's straight to bed.' I'd be a terrible parent if I carried through on the threat if they failed to do X through no fault of their own. If, on the other hand, they wilfully refused it's a completely different story. That baptism is necessary for us does not make it necessary to God and certainly does not preclude baptism by blood or baptism of desire. Else, why does the Church give catechumens a Christian burial and how do we have catechumen saints?

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« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2013, 05:56:15 AM »


St. John of Damascus is one of my favorite Scholastics.  Smiley

It's true Sad

As someone with a burning hatred of Aristotle I think that was St. John's only fault.
Burning?

I like superlatives.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 05:56:24 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2013, 05:59:42 AM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.
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« Reply #108 on: March 28, 2013, 08:22:08 AM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.

Actually, I would have to disagree. Not "from any possible point of view", but from both of the povs most relevant to this forum, namely the Catholic pov and the Orthodox pov.
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« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2013, 08:23:44 AM »

It's not a matter of proving that it is wrong to call you a Catholic.

Look at it this way: a Lutheran saying "I'm a Catholic" must be considered correct if one accepts a definition of "Catholic" that included Lutherans. But the definition of "Catholic" on this forum is in terms of the pope (Pope Francis), hence a Lutheran isn't Catholic (according to that definition), nor are you.
the definition of Catholic on this forum is in terms of the pope???

Yup.
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« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2013, 09:33:05 AM »


St. John of Damascus is one of my favorite Scholastics.  Smiley

It's true Sad

As someone with a burning hatred of Aristotle I think that was St. John's only fault.
Burning?

I like superlatives.

What did Aristotle ever do to you to make you hate him so superlatively?
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« Reply #111 on: March 28, 2013, 09:46:29 AM »

Actually, I would have to disagree. Not "from any possible point of view", but from both of the povs most relevant to this forum, namely the Catholic pov and the Orthodox pov.

Or you are twice schismatic if he is real Catholic.
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« Reply #112 on: March 28, 2013, 10:17:46 AM »

Actually, I would have to disagree. Not "from any possible point of view", but from both of the povs most relevant to this forum, namely the Catholic pov and the Orthodox pov.

Or you are twice schismatic if he is real Catholic.

One of the least appreciated words in the English language: If


Quote

If I Were a Rich Man by Fiddler on the Roof Cast
[TEVYE]
"Dear God, you made many, many poor people.
I realize, of course, that it's no shame to be poor.
But it's no great honor either!
So, what would have been so terrible if I had a small fortune?"

If I were a rich man,
Yubby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dum.
All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
If I were a wealthy man.
I wouldn't have to work hard.
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
If I were a biddy biddy rich,
Idle-diddle-daidle-daidle man.

I'd build a big tall house with rooms by the dozen,
Right in the middle of the town.
A fine tin roof with real wooden floors below.
There would be one long staircase just going up,
And one even longer coming down,
And one more leading nowhere, just for show.

I'd fill my yard with chicks and turkeys and geese and ducks
For the town to see and hear.
(Insert)Squawking just as noisily as they can. (End Insert)
With each loud "cheep" "swaqwk" "honk" "quack"
Would land like a trumpet on the ear,
As if to say "Here lives a wealthy man."

If I were a rich man,
Yubby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dum.
All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
If I were a wealthy man.
I wouldn't have to work hard.
Yubby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dum.
If I were a biddy biddy rich,
Idle-diddle-daidle-daidle man.

I'd see my wife, my Golde, looking like a rich man's wife
With a proper double-chin.
Supervising meals to her heart's delight.
I see her putting on airs and strutting like a peacock.
Oy, what a happy mood she's in.
Screaming at the servants, day and night.

The most important men in town would come to fawn on me!
They would ask me to advise them,
Like a Solomon the Wise.
"If you please, Reb Tevye..."
"Pardon me, Reb Tevye..."
Posing problems that would cross a rabbi's eyes!

And it won't make one bit of difference if i answer right or wrong.
When you're rich, they think you really know!

If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack
To sit in the synagogue and pray.
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall.
And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day.
That would be the sweetest thing of all.

If I were a rich man,
Yubby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dum.
All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
If I were a wealthy man.
I wouldn't have to work hard.
Idle-diddle-daidle-daidle man.

Lord who mad the lion and the lamb,
You decreed I should be what I am.
Would it spoil some vast eternal plan?
If I were a wealthy man.
http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/fiddlerontheroof/ifiwerearichman.htm
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« Reply #113 on: March 28, 2013, 12:53:28 PM »


St. John of Damascus is one of my favorite Scholastics.  Smiley

It's true Sad

As someone with a burning hatred of Aristotle I think that was St. John's only fault.
Burning?

I like superlatives.

What did Aristotle ever do to you to make you hate him so superlatively?

Straying from the true Platonist ways and being an incredibly boring writer.
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« Reply #114 on: March 28, 2013, 01:20:37 PM »


St. John of Damascus is one of my favorite Scholastics.  Smiley

It's true Sad

As someone with a burning hatred of Aristotle I think that was St. John's only fault.
Burning?

I like superlatives.

What did Aristotle ever do to you to make you hate him so superlatively?

Straying from the true Platonist ways and being an incredibly boring writer.

But there's no need to take it personally and let it devolve into hatred, eh?  Grin.
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« Reply #115 on: March 28, 2013, 06:40:54 PM »


St. John of Damascus is one of my favorite Scholastics.  Smiley

It's true Sad

As someone with a burning hatred of Aristotle I think that was St. John's only fault.
Burning?

I like superlatives.

What did Aristotle ever do to you to make you hate him so superlatively?

Straying from the true Platonist ways and being an incredibly boring writer.
I'm going to have to agree with you there. I LOVE reading Plato, and while I agree more with Aristotle than Plato, reading through Aristotle's Metaphysics was incredibly painful.
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« Reply #116 on: March 28, 2013, 11:20:55 PM »

give me an example of the unbaptised saint and I will look into it

All from the Old Testament, St. Dismas, the 40th one of the 40 Martyrs of Sebaste - some that come to mind
They died under the old law, just like the good thief before Jesus commanded everyone to be baptised.

The Martyrs of Sebaste were definitely post-Ascension.
UNBAPTIZED SAINTS?
 
     One of the biggest objections from baptism of desire/blood advocates is the claim that
the Catholic Church recognizes saints who never received the Sacrament of Baptism. 
The answer to this is that the Catholic Church has never recognized that there are
saints in heaven who were not baptized.  Some historians have written accounts of the
lives of certain saints in which these saints died without baptism of water – by “baptism
of blood”; but the assertions of these historians prove nothing.   
 
     Not all of the information surrounding the deaths of martyrs is accurate.  For
instance, “According to St. Ambrose, Prudentius and Father Butler, Saint Agnes was beheaded. 
Others had said she [St. Agnes] was burned to death.  Our point is that not all of the
information given in the martyrdom narrative is necessarily accurate, consistent, or
complete.”173   
 
Pope St. Gelasius, Decretal, 495: “Likewise the deeds of the holy martyrs...
[which] with remarkable caution are not read in the holy Roman Church...
because the names of those who wrote them are entirely unknown... lest an
occasion of mockery might arise.”174 
 
Pope St. Gelasius is saying here that the acts and deeds recorded of the martyrs are
uncertain.  Their authors are unknown, the accounts may contain error and they were
not even read out in the holy Roman Church to avoid possible scandal or mockery
which might arise from any false statements contained therein.  In fact, in his work The
Age of Martyrs, the renowned Church historian Abbot Giuseppe Ricciotti says:  “For
guides we have appropriate documents.  These, however, as we have already seen, are often
uncertain and would lead us completely astray.  Especially unreliable are the Acts or
Passions of martyrs.”175  The infallible teaching of the Catholic Church, on the other
hand, is absolutely reliable, and it has never taught that souls can be saved without the
58
Sacrament of Baptism by “baptism of blood.”  Thus, in short, there is no proof that any
saint martyred for the Catholic Faith never received the Sacrament of Baptism.   
 
THE FORTY MARTYRS OF SEBASTE
 
     An example of how the baptism of blood advocates err in this matter is their assertion
that the fortieth martyr of Sebaste was unbaptized.  They say that he was unbaptized,
but that he joined himself with the other thirty‐nine martyrs and froze to death for
Christ on the lake.  The fact is that there is no proof that the fortieth martyr of Sebaste
was unbaptized, whose identity is unknown.  The accounts of the story reveal that he
“cried out with a loud voice that he was a Christian,” probably because he was already a
baptized Catholic who was spurred on to martyrdom by the example of the other thirty‐
nine.  Further, in the Roman Martyrology under the date of September 9, we read: 
 
“At Sebaste in Armenia, St. Severian, a soldier of Emperor Licinius.  For
frequently visiting the Forty Martyrs in prison, he was suspended in the air
with a stone tied to his feet by order of the governor Lysias...”176 
     
      It is certain that Severian was not the fortieth martyr (from the date and
circumstances of his death), but we see from this account that other people and soldiers
were able to visit the forty in prison.  Thus, the forty martyrs easily could have baptized
any soldiers who showed interest and sympathy with their cause, including the one who
joined himself to them eventually (if he wasn’t already baptized).  Thus, there is nothing
that proves that the fortieth martyr was unbaptized, and we know that he was from the
truth of our Faith.  The same can be said about all of the approximately 20 cases which
are brought forward by the baptism of blood advocates. 
 
Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex
cathedra:  “And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless
we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter
into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and
natural water.”177
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/2nd_edition_final.pdf
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« Reply #117 on: March 28, 2013, 11:21:57 PM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.
you don't know what you are talking about
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« Reply #118 on: March 28, 2013, 11:26:08 PM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.
you don't know what you are talking about

Yes he does and he's citing from your overused source.
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« Reply #119 on: March 28, 2013, 11:27:51 PM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.

Actually, I would have to disagree. Not "from any possible point of view", but from both of the povs most relevant to this forum, namely the Catholic pov and the Orthodox pov.
you follow popes who go directly against the teachings of the past true popes..you should study more before commenting on the catholic faith
for example
Pope Pius XI,
Mortalium Animos
(# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics
...”
2
All Catholic moral theology manuals before Vatican II
reiterated this truth.
They taught that it’s a mortal sin against the divine law for Catholics to partake in non-Catholic worship.
Pope Pius IX,
Neminem vestrum
(# 5), Feb. 2, 1854: “We want you to know that those same
monks sent Us a splendid profession of Catholic faith and doctrine... They eloquently acknowledged and freely received the regulations and decrees which the popes and the sacred congregations published or would publish – especially those which prohibit communicatio in divinis (communion in holy matters) with schismatics
...
They acknowledge that they condemn the error of the schismatic Armenians and recognize that they are outside of the Church of Jesus Christ.”
Notice that the decrees and regulations of the
popes prohibit communication in divine things
with schismatics.
Pope Pius VI,
Charitas
(# 31-32), April 13, 1791, speaking of priests who went along with
the notoriously heretical civil constitution of the clergy in France: “Above all, avoid and condemn the sacrilegious intruders...
do not hold communion with them especially in divine worship .”
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« Reply #120 on: March 28, 2013, 11:28:42 PM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.
you don't know what you are talking about

Yes he does and he's citing from your overused source.
no he doesn't
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« Reply #121 on: March 28, 2013, 11:38:16 PM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.
you don't know what you are talking about

Yes he does and he's citing from your overused source.
no he doesn't

What an intelligent and rational refutation. You have me completely convinced.
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« Reply #122 on: March 29, 2013, 12:06:20 AM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.
you don't know what you are talking about

Yes he does and he's citing from your overused source.
no he doesn't

You believe in UFO's and conspiracy theories rather than Christ.
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« Reply #123 on: March 29, 2013, 12:36:45 AM »

thanks for the replies, I believe it's clear from the bible the Catholic teaching is the correct one, baptism should be done asap, 1 month is the latest
In the very last INSTRUCTION THAT JESUS CHRIST GIVES THE APOSTLES BEFORE LEAVING THIS WORLD – He gives His Apostles two commands: to teach all nations and to baptize.  This should tell everyone something about the importance and the necessity of baptism.  Baptism is bound up, by Jesus Himself, with the very command to teach all nations the Christian faith.  That’s because no one can be saved without it, as we see in St. Mark’s Gospel.

 

Mark 16:15-16- “And he (Jesus) said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

 

Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, which indicates that the unbaptized will not be saved.  But some ask: why didn’t Jesus say, “he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned,” after saying he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?  The answer is that those who don’t believe are not going to get baptized, so it’s not necessary to mention baptism again.

 1 Peter 3:20-21- “… when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also…”
In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

You can not enter the kingdom of God unless you are baptised, let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.
children that young are innocent and sinless, if the infant were to die before baptism im sure God would not banish it to some made up limbo as the Catholic church teaches.
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« Reply #124 on: March 29, 2013, 12:38:54 AM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.

Actually, I would have to disagree. Not "from any possible point of view", but from both of the povs most relevant to this forum, namely the Catholic pov and the Orthodox pov.
you follow popes who go directly against the teachings of the past true popes..you should study more before commenting on the catholic faith
for example
Pope Pius XI,
Mortalium Animos
(# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “...
this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics
...”
2
All Catholic moral theology manuals before Vatican II
reiterated this truth.
They taught that it’s a mortal sin against the divine law for Catholics to partake in non-Catholic worship.
Pope Pius IX,
Neminem vestrum
(# 5), Feb. 2, 1854: “We want you to know that those same
monks sent Us a splendid profession of Catholic faith and doctrine... They eloquently acknowledged and freely received the regulations and decrees which the popes and the sacred congregations published or would publish – especially those which prohibit communicatio in divinis (communion in holy matters) with schismatics
...
They acknowledge that they condemn the error of the schismatic Armenians and recognize that they are outside of the Church of Jesus Christ.”
Notice that the decrees and regulations of the
popes prohibit communication in divine things
with schismatics.
Pope Pius VI,
Charitas
(# 31-32), April 13, 1791, speaking of priests who went along with
the notoriously heretical civil constitution of the clergy in France: “Above all, avoid and condemn the sacrilegious intruders...
do not hold communion with them especially in divine worship .”

we all get batished in the name of the Holy Trinity, it is all the same except for tradition.
Edit: also the pope has many prayer services with the Patriarch such as them saying the Creed together.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 12:39:58 AM by alexandros-_ » Logged

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« Reply #125 on: March 29, 2013, 04:00:02 AM »

you don't know what you are talking about

You severed yourself from communion with your bishop and your Patriarch. According to traditional Roman ecclesiology being in communion with Rome is the litmus test of determining whether someone is a Catholic or not. You failed the test.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 04:04:05 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #126 on: March 29, 2013, 07:42:12 AM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.
you don't know what you are talking about

Yes he does and he's citing from your overused source.
no he doesn't

What an intelligent and rational refutation. You have me completely convinced.
yet you accept "Yes he does and he's citing from your overused source."
interesting standards you set for yourself
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« Reply #127 on: March 29, 2013, 07:43:40 AM »

thanks for the replies, I believe it's clear from the bible the Catholic teaching is the correct one, baptism should be done asap, 1 month is the latest
In the very last INSTRUCTION THAT JESUS CHRIST GIVES THE APOSTLES BEFORE LEAVING THIS WORLD – He gives His Apostles two commands: to teach all nations and to baptize.  This should tell everyone something about the importance and the necessity of baptism.  Baptism is bound up, by Jesus Himself, with the very command to teach all nations the Christian faith.  That’s because no one can be saved without it, as we see in St. Mark’s Gospel.

 

Mark 16:15-16- “And he (Jesus) said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

 

Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, which indicates that the unbaptized will not be saved.  But some ask: why didn’t Jesus say, “he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned,” after saying he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?  The answer is that those who don’t believe are not going to get baptized, so it’s not necessary to mention baptism again.

 1 Peter 3:20-21- “… when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also…”
In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

You can not enter the kingdom of God unless you are baptised, let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.
children that young are innocent and sinless, if the infant were to die before baptism im sure God would not banish it to some made up limbo as the Catholic church teaches.
you're sure about that? you better read more and you don't know what you are talking about
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« Reply #128 on: March 29, 2013, 07:49:21 AM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.
you don't know what you are talking about

Yes he does and he's citing from your overused source.
no he doesn't

You believe in UFO's and conspiracy theories rather than Christ.
you believe in government made up lies instead of Christ...what conspiracy theories are you talking about? I thought this was a forum to discuss religious views, but if you would like to discuss "conspiracy theories" point me to the correct thread so I can crush all your false beliefs as you seem like a naive person who believes whatever their government tells them, but I know your type, to make useless accusations and then never back it up. concentrate on your salvation and don't get mixed up with debating conspiracy theories with me because I will embarrass you.
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« Reply #129 on: March 29, 2013, 07:51:18 AM »

you don't know what you are talking about

You severed yourself from communion with your bishop and your Patriarch. According to traditional Roman ecclesiology being in communion with Rome is the litmus test of determining whether someone is a Catholic or not. You failed the test.
you failed to realize Rome has lost the faith and it is not Catholic Church ,the vatican has been infiltrated by freemason / jewish agents, to follow the vatican 2 sect is to follow the enemies of Christ, how can you be so blind to the truth
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« Reply #130 on: March 29, 2013, 08:19:00 AM »

you don't know what you are talking about

You severed yourself from communion with your bishop and your Patriarch. According to traditional Roman ecclesiology being in communion with Rome is the litmus test of determining whether someone is a Catholic or not. You failed the test.
you failed to realize Rome has lost the faith and it is not Catholic Church

No, I have not failed to realise this.
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« Reply #131 on: March 29, 2013, 08:22:04 AM »

you don't know what you are talking about

You severed yourself from communion with your bishop and your Patriarch. According to traditional Roman ecclesiology being in communion with Rome is the litmus test of determining whether someone is a Catholic or not. You failed the test.
you failed to realize Rome has lost the faith and it is not Catholic Church ,the vatican has been infiltrated by freemason / jewish agents, to follow the vatican 2 sect is to follow the enemies of Christ, how can you be so blind to the truth

Says he who scoffs at conspiracy theories ....  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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WWW
« Reply #132 on: March 29, 2013, 11:37:13 PM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.
you don't know what you are talking about

Yes he does and he's citing from your overused source.
no he doesn't

You believe in UFO's and conspiracy theories rather than Christ.
you believe in government made up lies instead of Christ...what conspiracy theories are you talking about?

The ones posted on the Most Holy Family Monastery website.

If you want to discuss Politics, PM Fr. George for access to the Private fora.

I thought this was a forum to discuss religious views, but if you would like to discuss "conspiracy theories" point me to the correct thread so I can crush all your false beliefs

If you want to discuss Politics, PM Fr. George for access to the Private fora.

as you seem like a naive person who believes whatever their government tells them, but I know your type, to make useless accusations and then never back it up. concentrate on your salvation and don't get mixed up with debating conspiracy theories with me because I will embarrass you.

I've upset you.  Please forgive me.   angel
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« Reply #133 on: March 29, 2013, 11:44:01 PM »

you don't know what you are talking about

You severed yourself from communion with your bishop and your Patriarch. According to traditional Roman ecclesiology being in communion with Rome is the litmus test of determining whether someone is a Catholic or not. You failed the test.
you failed to realize Rome has lost the faith and it is not Catholic Church ,the vatican has been infiltrated by freemason / jewish agents, to follow the vatican 2 sect is to follow the enemies of Christ, how can you be so blind to the truth

Says he who scoffs at conspiracy theories ....  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
you have me mixed up with the other guy sol, I don't believe in conspiray theory, just conspiracy fact
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« Reply #134 on: March 29, 2013, 11:56:04 PM »


contrast to...
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

But you're schismatic from any possible point of view.
you don't know what you are talking about

Yes he does and he's citing from your overused source.
no he doesn't

You believe in UFO's and conspiracy theories rather than Christ.
you believe in government made up lies instead of Christ...what conspiracy theories are you talking about?

The ones posted on the Most Holy Family Monastery website.

If you want to discuss Politics, PM Fr. George for access to the Private fora.

I thought this was a forum to discuss religious views, but if you would like to discuss "conspiracy theories" point me to the correct thread so I can crush all your false beliefs

If you want to discuss Politics, PM Fr. George for access to the Private fora.

as you seem like a naive person who believes whatever their government tells them, but I know your type, to make useless accusations and then never back it up. concentrate on your salvation and don't get mixed up with debating conspiracy theories with me because I will embarrass you.

I've upset you.  Please forgive me.   angel
I don't need to discuss politics with Fr. George or whatever flora from this forum,  I came to this website with the hopes of saving souls, and as far as I can tell I'm not doing a good job,.... you made the false accusation that I believe in ufo's rather than Christ, so of course I take offense ,apology  accepted


Post edited to enforce forum rule that clergy receive the respect due their sacramental ministry in the Church  -PtA
 
Our records show that you've already received one warning for refusing to give our clergy their due respects by using their proper titles. For refusing to do this again, you are receiving this warning to last for the next 14 days. I don't care that you think us outside the Church or even non-Christian and our clergy therefore unworthy to be addressed as clergy. On this forum, you will refer to our priests as Father and our bishops as Bishop, Archbishop, Metropolitan, etc.

If you think this warning wrong, please appeal it to me via private message.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 01:24:25 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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