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sedevacantist
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« on: March 24, 2013, 11:52:05 AM »

question 1
I have to go to a baptism at a greek orthodox church, my niece is 7 months old, my question is why do you wait so long to get your babies baptized, do you believe in infant baptism? If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing? I know you get the baby anointed or something early on, but this surely can't replace the baptism? what is the point?

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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2013, 11:57:00 AM »

my question is why do you wait so long to get your babies baptized,

I was baptised when I was 2-day-old. Most people baptise their kids around 40th day. I agree 7 months is much.

Quote
do you believe in infant baptism?

Yes, as well as in infant chrismation and Communion. Just as the ancient Church did.

Quote
Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing?

No.
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2013, 11:57:40 AM »

question 1
I have to go to a baptism at a greek orthodox church, my niece is 7 months old, my question is why do you wait so long to get your babies baptized, do you believe in infant baptism?

Do you think that the Orthodox Church doesn't think that 7 months old children aren't infants? That would answer your question.

If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing? I know you get the baby anointed or something early on, but this surely can't replace the baptism? what is the point?

40 days is just the traditional date. Baptism is the new circumcision and all that.


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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2013, 06:04:48 PM »

question 1
I have to go to a baptism at a greek orthodox church, my niece is 7 months old, my question is why do you wait so long to get your babies baptized, do you believe in infant baptism? If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing? I know you get the baby anointed or something early on, but this surely can't replace the baptism? what is the point?



In my experience, Russians and most other Slavs baptize their babies as early as possible (within a month or two from birth). Greeks, for all sorts of social reasons which have nothing to do with religious practice, tend to baptize them later. However, all Orthodox practice infant baptism where possible.

The only "anointing early on" I've heard of is the chrismation which is part of the baptismal service. I've never heard of an earlier, separate anointing.
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2013, 06:16:28 PM »

Baptisms are a big deal in Greek culture, and probably bigger than most Western weddings in terms of number of guests. Like weddings, they take a long time to arrange, which is why it is not uncommon for children to be quite old before the parents finally get around to doing the baptism.
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2013, 06:25:54 PM »

question 1
I have to go to a baptism at a greek orthodox church, my niece is 7 months old, my question is why do you wait so long to get your babies baptized, do you believe in infant baptism? If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing? I know you get the baby anointed or something early on, but this surely can't replace the baptism? what is the point?



In my experience, Russians and most other Slavs baptize their babies as early as possible (within a month or two from birth). Greeks, for all sorts of social reasons which have nothing to do with religious practice, tend to baptize them later. However, all Orthodox practice infant baptism where possible.

The only "anointing early on" I've heard of is the chrismation which is part of the baptismal service. I've never heard of an earlier, separate anointing.

Well, there's the anointing with the oil of gladness, but that's part of the baptism service. There may be anointings with holy oil prior to baptism and chrismation, but those anointings can happen at any time.
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2013, 06:32:50 PM »

question 1
I have to go to a baptism at a greek orthodox church, my niece is 7 months old, my question is why do you wait so long to get your babies baptized, do you believe in infant baptism? If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing? I know you get the baby anointed or something early on, but this surely can't replace the baptism? what is the point?



In my experience, Russians and most other Slavs baptize their babies as early as possible (within a month or two from birth). Greeks, for all sorts of social reasons which have nothing to do with religious practice, tend to baptize them later. However, all Orthodox practice infant baptism where possible.

The only "anointing early on" I've heard of is the chrismation which is part of the baptismal service. I've never heard of an earlier, separate anointing.

Well, there's the anointing with the oil of gladness, but that's part of the baptism service. There may be anointings with holy oil prior to baptism and chrismation, but those anointings can happen at any time.

I believe there's an anointing done at the birth of the child, both for mother and baby. Though, I've never witnessed this first hand and I can't say for sure, it seems like I remember mention of this being done.
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2013, 06:39:22 PM »

question 1
I have to go to a baptism at a greek orthodox church, my niece is 7 months old, my question is why do you wait so long to get your babies baptized, do you believe in infant baptism? If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing? I know you get the baby anointed or something early on, but this surely can't replace the baptism? what is the point?



In my experience, Russians and most other Slavs baptize their babies as early as possible (within a month or two from birth). Greeks, for all sorts of social reasons which have nothing to do with religious practice, tend to baptize them later. However, all Orthodox practice infant baptism where possible.

The only "anointing early on" I've heard of is the chrismation which is part of the baptismal service. I've never heard of an earlier, separate anointing.

Well, there's the anointing with the oil of gladness, but that's part of the baptism service. There may be anointings with holy oil prior to baptism and chrismation, but those anointings can happen at any time.

I believe there's an anointing done at the birth of the child, both for mother and baby. Though, I've never witnessed this first hand and I can't say for sure, it seems like I remember mention of this being done.

According to the Book of Needs, there is no mention of any anointing of either mother or child at the prayers after birth, the prayers at the eighth day after birth, nor the churching of the child at 40 days (whether the churching occurs before or after baptism). The priest lays his hands on them, and makes the sign of the cross over them, but there is no anointing.
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2013, 06:42:20 PM »

We use holy water at the 40th day.
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2013, 06:48:55 PM »

question 1
I have to go to a baptism at a greek orthodox church, my niece is 7 months old, my question is why do you wait so long to get your babies baptized, do you believe in infant baptism? If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing? I know you get the baby anointed or something early on, but this surely can't replace the baptism? what is the point?



In my experience, Russians and most other Slavs baptize their babies as early as possible (within a month or two from birth). Greeks, for all sorts of social reasons which have nothing to do with religious practice, tend to baptize them later. However, all Orthodox practice infant baptism where possible.

The only "anointing early on" I've heard of is the chrismation which is part of the baptismal service. I've never heard of an earlier, separate anointing.

Well, there's the anointing with the oil of gladness, but that's part of the baptism service. There may be anointings with holy oil prior to baptism and chrismation, but those anointings can happen at any time.

I believe there's an anointing done at the birth of the child, both for mother and baby. Though, I've never witnessed this first hand and I can't say for sure, it seems like I remember mention of this being done.

According to the Book of Needs, there is no mention of any anointing of either mother or child at the prayers after birth, the prayers at the eighth day after birth, nor the churching of the child at 40 days (whether the churching occurs before or after baptism). The priest lays his hands on them, and makes the sign of the cross over them, but there is no anointing.

I suppose I stand corrected then. I wonder if there's something else I'm thinking of and getting confused...
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2013, 07:30:59 PM »

question 1
I have to go to a baptism at a greek orthodox church, my niece is 7 months old, my question is why do you wait so long to get your babies baptized, do you believe in infant baptism? If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing? I know you get the baby anointed or something early on, but this surely can't replace the baptism? what is the point?

If we don't believe in infant baptism, why is this Greek Orthodox Church baptizing someone at 7 months old?

As per some standards out there, the infant becomes a toddler at 12 months.

Anyone following age old Orthodox tradition would have started prayers for the infant on the first day.  I believe it was the midwife who should go to church the day following birth for the prayers.  Then on day 3 the mother and infant comes to church to be blessed at the door and to give the name of the baby.

Many Catholics postpone baptism, FYI.
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2013, 10:14:00 PM »

question 1
I have to go to a baptism at a greek orthodox church, my niece is 7 months old, my question is why do you wait so long to get your babies baptized, do you believe in infant baptism? If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing? I know you get the baby anointed or something early on, but this surely can't replace the baptism? what is the point?



We Orthodox believe that an infant can get to heaven without Baptism simply because we don't believe in Original Sin in the same context as the RCC does.  This 'stain' of Adam which you believe to be eliminated at your Baptism is non existent in our faith.  We do believe that all men are subject to death as the result of Adams sin of disobedience.  We don't believe in Purgatory or Limbo as such but we do believe that all those who are Baptized and have 'reached the age' ie who can tell the difference between good and evil, and die do enter a state whereby we await final judgement.  We soley rely on the Mercy of God and the prayers of intercession by the faithful not yet dead to help those who have gone on.

Orthodoxy teaches that, after the soul leaves the body, it journeys to the abode of the dead (Hades). There are exceptions, such as the Theotokos, who was borne by the angels directly into heaven. As for the rest, we must remain in this condition of waiting. Because some have a prevision of the glory to come and others foretaste their suffering, the state of waiting is called "Particular Judgment."

When Christ returns, the soul rejoins its risen body to be judged by Him. The "good and faithful servant" will inherit eternal life, the unfaithful with the unbeliever will spend eternity in hell. Their sins and their unbelief will torture them as fire.

The Orthodox Church links Baptism, Chrismation and Holy Communion, first the threefold immersion into sanctified water, the "new Christian" rising from the water into the fellowship of the Holy Spirit which leads to union with God. Such is the purpose of membership in the Church.

What explains the Righteous Enoch and Elijiah taken Bodily into heaven and are awaiting the great Tribulation?
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2013, 10:16:57 PM »

If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven,

If the situation is so crucial then why don't Catholics baptize babies the same day they're born, especially if sprinkling/whatever is an option?
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2013, 10:33:03 PM »

If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven,

If the situation is so crucial then why don't Catholics baptize babies the same day they're born, especially if sprinkling/whatever is an option?

There's a Canon Law that forbids baptisms in hospitals except in cases of necessity.
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2013, 10:38:10 PM »

If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven,

If the situation is so crucial then why don't Catholics baptize babies the same day they're born, especially if sprinkling/whatever is an option?

There's a Canon Law that forbids baptisms in hospitals except in cases of necessity.

Avoiding going to hell seems like necessity to me... but supposing such a dumb law was followed, why not insist on every baby being baptized the first day out of the hospital? Hell seems like a pretty crappy place to spend eternity, how can anyone justify such laziness as waiting a few weeks? Sickening...
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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2013, 10:49:10 PM »

If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven,

If the situation is so crucial then why don't Catholics baptize babies the same day they're born, especially if sprinkling/whatever is an option?

There's a Canon Law that forbids baptisms in hospitals except in cases of necessity.

Avoiding going to hell seems like necessity to me... but supposing such a dumb law was followed, why not insist on every baby being baptized the first day out of the hospital? Hell seems like a pretty crappy place to spend eternity, how can anyone justify such laziness as waiting a few weeks? Sickening...

Some people actually do that.  I guess the only other issue is scheduling the baptism with the parish, which usually should be done weeks, if not months ahead.  You tend to schedule about a month from the due date just in case the baby is overdue.  But if the baby is born early, then there's a longer wait.
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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2013, 11:27:11 PM »

thanks for the replies, I believe it's clear from the bible the Catholic teaching is the correct one, baptism should be done asap, 1 month is the latest
In the very last INSTRUCTION THAT JESUS CHRIST GIVES THE APOSTLES BEFORE LEAVING THIS WORLD – He gives His Apostles two commands: to teach all nations and to baptize.  This should tell everyone something about the importance and the necessity of baptism.  Baptism is bound up, by Jesus Himself, with the very command to teach all nations the Christian faith.  That’s because no one can be saved without it, as we see in St. Mark’s Gospel.

 

Mark 16:15-16- “And he (Jesus) said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

 

Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, which indicates that the unbaptized will not be saved.  But some ask: why didn’t Jesus say, “he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned,” after saying he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?  The answer is that those who don’t believe are not going to get baptized, so it’s not necessary to mention baptism again.

 1 Peter 3:20-21- “… when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also…”
In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

You can not enter the kingdom of God unless you are baptised, let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2013, 11:39:02 PM »

to put it in roman catholic terms the person being baptized will also receive confirmation and first holy communion together. 
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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2013, 11:40:08 PM »

if you all want to discuss the particulars of where a baby goes if he is unbaptized please start another thread.  Stay on topic please.  username! section moderator
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2013, 04:24:07 AM »

thanks for the replies, I believe it's clear from the bible the Catholic teaching is the correct one, baptism should be done asap, 1 month is the latest

But that's just local Latin tradition (small-t). The Eastern Catholics have the same practice. There's no need in Latinising us.
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2013, 04:56:57 AM »

thanks for the replies, I believe it's clear from the bible the Catholic teaching is the correct one, baptism should be done asap, 1 month is the latest
In the very last INSTRUCTION THAT JESUS CHRIST GIVES THE APOSTLES BEFORE LEAVING THIS WORLD – He gives His Apostles two commands: to teach all nations and to baptize.  This should tell everyone something about the importance and the necessity of baptism.  Baptism is bound up, by Jesus Himself, with the very command to teach all nations the Christian faith.  That’s because no one can be saved without it, as we see in St. Mark’s Gospel.

 

Mark 16:15-16- “And he (Jesus) said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

 

Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, which indicates that the unbaptized will not be saved.  But some ask: why didn’t Jesus say, “he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned,” after saying he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?  The answer is that those who don’t believe are not going to get baptized, so it’s not necessary to mention baptism again.

 1 Peter 3:20-21- “… when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also…”
In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

You can not enter the kingdom of God unless you are baptised, let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.

If it was as clear cut as that, you'd be condemning the Good Thief to hell and calling Christ a liar.

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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2013, 05:14:52 AM »

Some people actually do that.  I guess the only other issue is scheduling the baptism with the parish, which usually should be done weeks, if not months ahead.  You tend to schedule about a month from the due date just in case the baby is overdue.  But if the baby is born early, then there's a longer wait.

So some babies go to hell because the priest isn't willing to do things in a more timely manner?

Do you see the point I am trying to make?

Catholics don't believe this stuff. They can't. No one would put off a life-saving treatment for their infant for a month just because of convenience. Now imagine the idea that your baby couldn't go to heaven if you acted quickly enough. If things really were as serious as all that then it would be done ASAP.

This is another example of the "abortion is murder" stuff. People use the words, but their actions show that they don't really believe what they say.

Now, perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps someone really does believe that an unbaptized baby cannot be saved, and they also believe it's perfectly fine to wait weeks (or longer) to baptize. In that case I apologize for not believing them. They aren't lying or exaggerating, they're just delusional and disgusting.
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2013, 05:31:43 AM »

The Orthodox Church also acknowledges an 'air baptism' or 'baptism of necessity', which any layman or woman can perform if a baby's life is in immediate danger.
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2013, 09:06:38 AM »

The Orthodox Church also acknowledges an 'air baptism' or 'baptism of necessity', which any layman or woman can perform if a baby's life is in immediate danger.


Bottom line: Orthodox and RC's do not view Baptism in quite the same way...
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2013, 10:52:06 AM »

Some people actually do that.  I guess the only other issue is scheduling the baptism with the parish, which usually should be done weeks, if not months ahead.  You tend to schedule about a month from the due date just in case the baby is overdue.  But if the baby is born early, then there's a longer wait.

So some babies go to hell because the priest isn't willing to do things in a more timely manner?

Do you see the point I am trying to make?

Catholics don't believe this stuff. They can't. No one would put off a life-saving treatment for their infant for a month just because of convenience. Now imagine the idea that your baby couldn't go to heaven if you acted quickly enough. If things really were as serious as all that then it would be done ASAP.

This is another example of the "abortion is murder" stuff. People use the words, but their actions show that they don't really believe what they say.

Now, perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps someone really does believe that an unbaptized baby cannot be saved, and they also believe it's perfectly fine to wait weeks (or longer) to baptize. In that case I apologize for not believing them. They aren't lying or exaggerating, they're just delusional and disgusting.

Even though I was a catechist in the Roman Catholic Church not too long ago, you're asking the wrong person here now. If you have issues with Roman Catholic faith, I suggest you talk to a priest of bishop from that Church, not a lay "apostate" Wink

And on a side note to your side note, abortion is murder regardless of what people are willing to do about it.  Just because we do not satisfy your personal opinion on what qualifies to be murder or not does not change the fact.  How sedevacantist related the belief of baptism in the Roman Catholic Church is what is actually taught.  Note that lay people are allowed to baptize in cases of necessity.  So if a baby is dying before the appointed time of baptism in the church, then the parent or anyone (including atheists and heretics) can baptize the baby.
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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2013, 11:09:51 AM »

question 1
Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing?
Stop misrepresenting the Catholic faith.
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« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2013, 11:09:51 AM »

question 1
I have to go to a baptism at a greek orthodox church, my niece is 7 months old, my question is why do you wait so long to get your babies baptized, do you believe in infant baptism? If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing? I know you get the baby anointed or something early on, but this surely can't replace the baptism? what is the point?

If we don't believe in infant baptism, why is this Greek Orthodox Church baptizing someone at 7 months old?

As per some standards out there, the infant becomes a toddler at 12 months.

Anyone following age old Orthodox tradition would have started prayers for the infant on the first day.  I believe it was the midwife who should go to church the day following birth for the prayers.  Then on day 3 the mother and infant comes to church to be blessed at the door and to give the name of the baby.

Many Catholics postpone baptism, FYI.
Many of them being Church Fathers.
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« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2013, 11:09:58 AM »

thanks for the replies, I believe it's clear from the bible the Catholic teaching is the correct one, baptism should be done asap, 1 month is the latest
In the very last INSTRUCTION THAT JESUS CHRIST GIVES THE APOSTLES BEFORE LEAVING THIS WORLD – He gives His Apostles two commands: to teach all nations and to baptize.  This should tell everyone something about the importance and the necessity of baptism.  Baptism is bound up, by Jesus Himself, with the very command to teach all nations the Christian faith.  That’s because no one can be saved without it, as we see in St. Mark’s Gospel.

 

Mark 16:15-16- “And he (Jesus) said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

 

Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, which indicates that the unbaptized will not be saved.  But some ask: why didn’t Jesus say, “he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned,” after saying he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?  The answer is that those sho don’t believe are not going to get baptized, so it’s not necessary to mention baptism again.

 1 Peter 3:20-21- “… when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also…”
In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

You can not enter the kingdom of God unless you are baptised, let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.

If it was as clear cut as that, you'd be condemning the Good Thief to hell and calling Christ a liar.

James

In addition, it is the teaching of the Roman and Orthodox churches that Christ descended into Hades and loosed the bonds of hell. St. Thomas Aquinas addresses this in his Summa (albeit in terms not entirely consistent with Orthodox patristics): "Directly Christ died His soul went down into hell, and bestowed the fruits of His Passion on the saints detained there; although they did not go out as long as Christ remained in hell, because His presence was part of the fulness of their glory."
 http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4052.htm
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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2013, 11:30:51 AM »

question 1
I have to go to a baptism at a greek orthodox church, my niece is 7 months old, my question is why do you wait so long to get your babies baptized, do you believe in infant baptism? If yes why not get baptized like the catholics shuld do within the 1st month. Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing? I know you get the baby anointed or something early on, but this surely can't replace the baptism? what is the point?



 

In my experience, Russians and most other Slavs baptize their babies as early as possible (within a month or two from birth). Greeks, for all sorts of social reasons which have nothing to do with religious practice, tend to baptize them later. However, all Orthodox practice infant baptism where possible.

The only "anointing early on" I've heard of is the chrismation which is part of the baptismal service. I've never heard of an earlier, separate anointing.




[/quote]

No historically in Russia babies did not get baptised before 6 months in Winter.  I mean the water in the baptistry was frozen!  It was considered too cold to take the baby to church.





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« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2013, 02:01:56 PM »

let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.

Well, okay...

In the Bible there are no popes or priests to rule over the church. Jesus Christ is our High Priest (Heb. 3:1; 4:14-15; 5:5; 8:1; 9:11), and all true Christians make up a spiritual priesthood (I Pet. 2:5). Jesus Christ has sanctified all Christians who believe on Him (Heb. 10:10-11), so all priests today are unnecessary and unscriptural. Furthermore, the practice of calling a priest "father" is forbidden by Jesus Christ in Matthew 23:9. There is only ONE mediator between God and men (I Tim. 2:5).

...

The Catholic Church teaches that the "Holy Mass" is a LITERAL EATING AND DRINKING OF THE LITERAL FLESH AND BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. The priest supposedly has the power to change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

Now, what does God's word say about such practices? If you'll read Genesis 9:4, Leviticus 17:11-12, and Acts 15:29, you will find that God absolutely FORBIDS the drinking of blood all through the Bible.

...

Exodus 20:4-5 says, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me."

...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

...

 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

Ah yes, the Bible: THE final mediator between Orthodox-Catholic disputes.
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« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2013, 03:46:34 PM »

Babies who die go to Hell? How absurd! Angry
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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2013, 04:07:07 PM »

I believe there's an anointing done at the birth of the child, both for mother and baby. Though, I've never witnessed this first hand and I can't say for sure, it seems like I remember mention of this being done.

i know you asked for eastern orthodox opinions, but maybe there is a separate service for new babies like there is in the coptic church.

i went to the one for my friend's baby, it was at 8 days, where the baby gets it's (traditionally) first wash and gets named and prayed for by the priest, who comes to the house, and prays for the parents and the baby. i didn't find any information about it in english, and my arabic is rubbish, so i don't know more about it currently. close friends and family are invited to attend; it is a small gathering. after this, everyone has food (food accompanies all egyptian traditions!)  Smiley

it is not baptism nor chrismation, this happens (in coptic church) on (or after, if the exact date is not convenient) 40 days for a boy and 80 days for a girl. mum and baby are not expected to go to church before this (gives them chance to rest), although many do, they just don't take Holy Communion.
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« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2013, 11:06:15 PM »

thanks for the replies, I believe it's clear from the bible the Catholic teaching is the correct one, baptism should be done asap, 1 month is the latest
In the very last INSTRUCTION THAT JESUS CHRIST GIVES THE APOSTLES BEFORE LEAVING THIS WORLD – He gives His Apostles two commands: to teach all nations and to baptize.  This should tell everyone something about the importance and the necessity of baptism.  Baptism is bound up, by Jesus Himself, with the very command to teach all nations the Christian faith.  That’s because no one can be saved without it, as we see in St. Mark’s Gospel.

 

Mark 16:15-16- “And he (Jesus) said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

 

Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, which indicates that the unbaptized will not be saved.  But some ask: why didn’t Jesus say, “he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned,” after saying he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?  The answer is that those who don’t believe are not going to get baptized, so it’s not necessary to mention baptism again.

 1 Peter 3:20-21- “… when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also…”
In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

You can not enter the kingdom of God unless you are baptised, let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.

If it was as clear cut as that, you'd be condemning the Good Thief to hell and calling Christ a liar.

James
The Good Thief cannot be used as an example of baptism of blood primarily because the Good Thief died under the Old Law, not the New Law; he died before the Law of Baptism was instituted by Jesus Christ after the Resurrection.  For that reason, the Good Thief, like the Holy Innocents, constitutes no argument against the necessity of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.
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« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2013, 11:10:46 PM »

question 1
Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing?
Stop misrepresenting the Catholic faith.
if you make an accusation you should back it up, if you wish to debate baptism of desire and baptism of blood feel free to let me know
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« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2013, 11:15:35 PM »

let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.

Well, okay...

In the Bible there are no popes or priests to rule over the church. Jesus Christ is our High Priest (Heb. 3:1; 4:14-15; 5:5; 8:1; 9:11), and all true Christians make up a spiritual priesthood (I Pet. 2:5). Jesus Christ has sanctified all Christians who believe on Him (Heb. 10:10-11), so all priests today are unnecessary and unscriptural. Furthermore, the practice of calling a priest "father" is forbidden by Jesus Christ in Matthew 23:9. There is only ONE mediator between God and men (I Tim. 2:5).

...

The Catholic Church teaches that the "Holy Mass" is a LITERAL EATING AND DRINKING OF THE LITERAL FLESH AND BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. The priest supposedly has the power to change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

Now, what does God's word say about such practices? If you'll read Genesis 9:4, Leviticus 17:11-12, and Acts 15:29, you will find that God absolutely FORBIDS the drinking of blood all through the Bible.

...

Exodus 20:4-5 says, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me."

...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

...

 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

Ah yes, the Bible: THE final mediator between Orthodox-Catholic disputes.
do you believe in faith alone? are you a protestant? you mention a few issues there which protestants bring up when debating, if you actually believe what you posted proves catholic teaching wrong let me know
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« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2013, 11:20:14 PM »

Babies who die go to Hell? How absurd! Angry
they go to hell where there's no fire, limbo, which biblical passage that I posted are you not in agreement with?
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« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2013, 11:23:28 PM »

let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.

Well, okay...

In the Bible there are no popes or priests to rule over the church. Jesus Christ is our High Priest (Heb. 3:1; 4:14-15; 5:5; 8:1; 9:11), and all true Christians make up a spiritual priesthood (I Pet. 2:5). Jesus Christ has sanctified all Christians who believe on Him (Heb. 10:10-11), so all priests today are unnecessary and unscriptural. Furthermore, the practice of calling a priest "father" is forbidden by Jesus Christ in Matthew 23:9. There is only ONE mediator between God and men (I Tim. 2:5).

...

The Catholic Church teaches that the "Holy Mass" is a LITERAL EATING AND DRINKING OF THE LITERAL FLESH AND BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. The priest supposedly has the power to change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

Now, what does God's word say about such practices? If you'll read Genesis 9:4, Leviticus 17:11-12, and Acts 15:29, you will find that God absolutely FORBIDS the drinking of blood all through the Bible.

...

Exodus 20:4-5 says, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me."

...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

...

 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

Ah yes, the Bible: THE final mediator between Orthodox-Catholic disputes.
do you believe in faith alone? are you a protestant? you mention a few issues there which protestants bring up when debating, if you actually believe what you posted proves catholic teaching wrong let me know

No I'm not a Protestant I was being facetious to illustrate how silly it is to carry on a debate between Orthodox and Catholic theologies by quoting verses from the Bible. Tongue

Also to point out how easy it is for someone to "prove Catholicism wrong" by picking quotes from the Bible.
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« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2013, 11:57:51 PM »

Babies who die go to Hell? How absurd! Angry
they go to hell where there's no fire, limbo, which biblical passage that I posted are you not in agreement with?

You must believe in another Jesus, one that is different than the ones taught by the Apostles.  We believe in a loving, merciful, Almighty God who is not limited by the Sacraments.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 11:58:25 PM by choy » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2013, 04:27:46 AM »

thanks for the replies, I believe it's clear from the bible the Catholic teaching is the correct one, baptism should be done asap, 1 month is the latest
In the very last INSTRUCTION THAT JESUS CHRIST GIVES THE APOSTLES BEFORE LEAVING THIS WORLD – He gives His Apostles two commands: to teach all nations and to baptize.  This should tell everyone something about the importance and the necessity of baptism.  Baptism is bound up, by Jesus Himself, with the very command to teach all nations the Christian faith.  That’s because no one can be saved without it, as we see in St. Mark’s Gospel.

 

Mark 16:15-16- “And he (Jesus) said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

 

Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, which indicates that the unbaptized will not be saved.  But some ask: why didn’t Jesus say, “he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned,” after saying he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?  The answer is that those who don’t believe are not going to get baptized, so it’s not necessary to mention baptism again.

 1 Peter 3:20-21- “… when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also…”
In the Shepherd of Hermas, dated 140 A.D., Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5 and writes:

 

“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1:92.)

You can not enter the kingdom of God unless you are baptised, let me know how the Catholic church can be wrong using the bible.

If it was as clear cut as that, you'd be condemning the Good Thief to hell and calling Christ a liar.

James
The Good Thief cannot be used as an example of baptism of blood primarily because the Good Thief died under the Old Law, not the New Law; he died before the Law of Baptism was instituted by Jesus Christ after the Resurrection.  For that reason, the Good Thief, like the Holy Innocents, constitutes no argument against the necessity of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.

So what of all the unbaptised martyr saints? You do realise that a 'baptism of blood' is not a literal baptism right? The situation simply is not as clear cut as you maintain, thankfully. I'm not sure I'd consider a God who condemned those who were unable to get baptised to hell as being one worthy of worship. You're quite right that baptism is necessary for us. Nothing is necessary for God. He can save whomsoever he wills, baptised or unbaptised, and we know that He wills all men to be saved. And goodness only knows why you keep quoting post-Schism RC councils here as though they are trump cards that prove your point - you do understand that we're as unlikely to be swayed by such arguments as we are to be convinced of sola scriptura based on the words of Martin Luther, don't you?

James
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« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2013, 08:52:47 AM »

Limbo is a dance not a place.  We will have to just disagree on what happens to unbaptized babies, and leave it at that.
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« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2013, 08:54:12 AM »

Babies who die go to Hell? How absurd! Angry
they go to hell where there's no fire, limbo, which biblical passage that I posted are you not in agreement with?

You must believe in another Jesus, one that is different than the ones taught by the Apostles.  We believe in a loving, merciful, Almighty God who is not limited by the Sacraments.

Exactly, who knows the true Mercy of God but God.
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« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2013, 11:38:19 AM »

question 1
Catholics believe if a bay perished before getting baptized he can not go to heaven, do the orthodox believe the same thing?
Stop misrepresenting the Catholic faith.
if you make an accusation you should back it up, if you wish to debate baptism of desire and baptism of blood feel free to let me know
I have no desire to debate them. They are teachings of the Church so I accept them. Why would a Catholic debate those teachings? In addition to this, the idea that unbaptized babies go to hell has never been affirmed by the Magesterium, so it's not a teaching of the Church. Q.E.D.
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« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2013, 11:38:19 AM »

Babies who die go to Hell? How absurd! Angry
they go to hell where there's no fire, limbo, which biblical passage that I posted are you not in agreement with?

You must believe in another Jesus, one that is different than the ones taught by the Apostles.  We believe in a loving, merciful, Almighty God who is not limited by the Sacraments.
^ This is the God that Catholics who are not in schism (sede's are in schism) believe in. We are in agreement on this Choy.
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« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2013, 11:38:19 AM »

Limbo is a dance not a place. 
I agree with you and with Pope Benedict on this matter.
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« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2013, 03:23:50 PM »



Exactly, who knows the true Mercy of God but God.

The Beatitudes come to mind: "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God".  No one is more pure in  heart than babies baptized or otherwise.
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