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Author Topic: Discussion between some different Catholic groups  (Read 4350 times) Average Rating: 0
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sedevacantist
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« on: March 09, 2013, 04:29:42 PM »

Split from there - MK.

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 11:18:41 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2013, 04:30:44 PM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin

What about the post-schism EO saints that are saints in the Roman Church as well? And aren't sedevacantists outside of the Church as well?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 04:32:50 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2013, 04:54:17 PM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin

What about the post-schism EO saints that are saints in the Roman Church as well? And aren't sedevacantists outside of the Church as well?

This is an interesting point.  Are there any pre-Vatican II saints in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2013, 04:58:39 PM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself.

Why?
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2013, 05:52:35 PM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin

What about the post-schism EO saints that are saints in the Roman Church as well? And aren't sedevacantists outside of the Church as well?
not sure about the saints, sedes are not outside the church since we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
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sedevacantist
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2013, 05:53:58 PM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself.

Why?
because while the communion is valid the priest is still a heretic since he believes Benedict is a true pope...which ofcourse he is not
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2013, 06:18:12 PM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here.

No, I'd venture to say that I'm very different. (Although I am technically a sedevacantist since Feb 28.)

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself.

Why?
because while the communion is valid the priest is still a heretic since he believes Benedict is a true pope...which ofcourse he is not

So, do you receive communion from a priest whom you regard as a heretic?  Huh
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2013, 06:19:50 PM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself.

Why?
because while the communion is valid the priest is still a heretic since he believes Benedict is a true pope...which ofcourse he is not

How was that priest ordained, then?
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2013, 07:10:14 PM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin

What about the post-schism EO saints that are saints in the Roman Church as well? And aren't sedevacantists outside of the Church as well?
not sure about the saints, sedes are not outside the church since we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
They have been severed almost a millenium before "vatican 2".  Since you believe, I take it, in Vatican I, where is your Pastor Aeternus?
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« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2013, 12:59:00 AM »

It's about to get rowdy up in here!
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« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2013, 01:17:55 AM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here.

No, I'd venture to say that I'm very different. (Although I am technically a sedevacantist since Feb 28.)

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself.

Why?
because while the communion is valid the priest is still a heretic since he believes Benedict is a true pope...which ofcourse he is not

So, do you receive communion from a priest whom you regard as a heretic?  Huh
yes, during this apostasy I have no choice, it is allowed to recieve communion from a heretic as long as he's not a notorious heretic.
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 01:18:25 AM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself.

Why?
because while the communion is valid the priest is still a heretic since he believes Benedict is a true pope...which ofcourse he is not

How was that priest ordained, then?
eastern rite
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sedevacantist
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 01:23:21 AM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin

What about the post-schism EO saints that are saints in the Roman Church as well? And aren't sedevacantists outside of the Church as well?
not sure about the saints, sedes are not outside the church since we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
They have been severed almost a millenium before "vatican 2".  Since you believe, I take it, in Vatican I, where is your Pastor Aeternus?
there have been many anti popes in history, it doesn't take away papal primacy...would you like to argue papal primacy here?
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2013, 01:26:52 AM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin

What about the post-schism EO saints that are saints in the Roman Church as well? And aren't sedevacantists outside of the Church as well?
not sure about the saints, sedes are not outside the church since we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
They have been severed almost a millenium before "vatican 2".  Since you believe, I take it, in Vatican I, where is your Pastor Aeternus?
there have been many anti popes in history, it doesn't take away papal primacy...would you like to argue papal primacy here?
Be prepared. These guys are much better at this debate than your average Protestant.
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2013, 01:36:33 AM »

Be prepared. These guys are much better at this debate than your average Protestant.

Yes, its great to be armed with the truth Wink
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2013, 01:37:41 AM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin

What about the post-schism EO saints that are saints in the Roman Church as well? And aren't sedevacantists outside of the Church as well?
not sure about the saints, sedes are not outside the church since we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
They have been severed almost a millenium before "vatican 2".  Since you believe, I take it, in Vatican I, where is your Pastor Aeternus?
there have been many anti popes in history, it doesn't take away papal primacy...would you like to argue papal primacy here?
Here, or anywhere you would like.

But in the meantime, as for the silly notion of "anti-pope,"  I don't know of one that didn't have a "real" pope as his rival.  Something new?
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2013, 01:38:15 AM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin

What about the post-schism EO saints that are saints in the Roman Church as well? And aren't sedevacantists outside of the Church as well?
not sure about the saints, sedes are not outside the church since we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
They have been severed almost a millenium before "vatican 2".  Since you believe, I take it, in Vatican I, where is your Pastor Aeternus?
there have been many anti popes in history, it doesn't take away papal primacy...would you like to argue papal primacy here?
Be prepared. These guys are much better at this debate than your average Protestant.
why, thank you.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2013, 02:59:38 AM »

there have been many anti popes in history, it doesn't take away papal primacy...would you like to argue papal primacy here?

I don't mean to sound flippant  angel (ok, maybe I do  Embarrassed ) but, gee, that would be a new topic, never seen that addressed here  Roll Eyes

With all due respect, you do realize that you're posting on an Orthodox forum, don't you? And, yet, you seriously ask that question?   Huh

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2013, 04:11:50 AM »

....we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
Since the Vatican is not catholic, where do we find the "true catholic church"? Who are the bishops of the "true catholic church"?
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« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2013, 06:46:35 AM »

So, do you receive communion from a priest whom you regard as a heretic?  Huh

I guess he isn't a donatist.

....we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
Since the Vatican is not catholic, where do we find the "true catholic church"? Who are the bishops of the "true catholic church"?

The Orthodox Church and its bishops angel
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 06:58:48 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2013, 08:27:33 AM »

there have been many anti popes in history, it doesn't take away papal primacy...would you like to argue papal primacy here?

I don't mean to sound flippant  angel (ok, maybe I do  Embarrassed ) but, gee, that would be a new topic, never seen that addressed here  Roll Eyes

With all due respect, you do realize that you're posting on an Orthodox forum, don't you? And, yet, you seriously ask that question?   Huh

Many years,

Neil
I meant on this  thread or some other, yes I'm serious.
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« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2013, 08:31:24 AM »

....we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
Since the Vatican is not catholic, where do we find the "true catholic church"? Who are the bishops of the "true catholic church"?
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2013, 08:38:01 AM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin

What about the post-schism EO saints that are saints in the Roman Church as well? And aren't sedevacantists outside of the Church as well?
not sure about the saints, sedes are not outside the church since we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
They have been severed almost a millenium before "vatican 2".  Since you believe, I take it, in Vatican I, where is your Pastor Aeternus?
there have been many anti popes in history, it doesn't take away papal primacy...would you like to argue papal primacy here?
Here, or anywhere you would like.

But in the meantime, as for the silly notion of "anti-pope,"  I don't know of one that didn't have a "real" pope as his rival.  Something new?
whats so silly?
in the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church, there have been more than 40 antipopes. An
antipope is a bishop who claims to be the pope, but was not canonically elected as Bishop of
Rome (i.e., supreme pontiff). Here is a list of the 42 antipopes that the Church had to contend
with before Vatican II:
1. St. Hippolytus (reconciled with Pope St. Pontian and died as martyr to the church),
217–235
2. Novatian, 251–258
3. Felix II (confused with a martyr with the same name and thus considered an authentic
pope until recently), 355–365
4. Ursicinus (Ursinus), 366–367
5. Eulalius, 418–419
6. Laurentius, 498–499, 501–506
7. Dioscorus (legitimate perhaps as opposed to Boniface II but died 22 days after
election), 530
8. Theodore (II) (opposed to antipope Paschal), 687
9. Paschal (I) (opposed to antipope Theodore), 687
10. Theofylact, 757
11. Constantine II, 767–768
12. Philip (replaced antipope Constantine II briefly; reigned for a day and then returned
to his monastery), 768
13. John VIII, 844
14. Anastasius III Bibliothecarius, 855
15. Christopher, 903–904
16. Boniface VII, 974, 984–985
17. John Filagatto (John XVI), 997–9
8. Gregory VI, 1012
19. Sylvester III, 1045
20. John Mincius (Benedict X), 1058–1059
21. Pietro Cadalus (Honorius II), 1061–1064
22. Guibert of Ravenna (Clement III), 1080 & 1084–1100
23. Theodoric, 1100–1101
24. Adalbert, 1101
25. Maginulf (Sylvester IV), 1105–1111
26. Maurice Burdanus (Gregory VIII), 1118–1121
27. Thebaldus Buccapecuc (Celestine II) (legitimate but submitted to opposing pope,
Honorius II, and afterwards considered an antipope), 1124
28. Pietro Pierleoni (Anacletus II), 1130–1138
29. Gregorio Conti (Victor IV), 1138
30. Ottavio di Montecelio (Victor IV), 1159–1164
31. Guido di Crema (Paschal III), 1164–1168
32. Giovanni of Struma (Callixtus III), 1168–1178
33. Lanzo of Sezza (Innocent III), 1179–1180
34. Pietro Rainalducci (Nicholas V), antipope in Rome, 1328–1330
35. Robert of Geneva (Clement VII), antipope of the Avignon line, 20 September 1378 – 16
September 1394
36. Pedro de Luna (Benedict XIII), antipope of the Avignon line, 1394–1423
37. Pietro Philarghi Alexander V, antipope of the Pisan line, 1409–1410
38. Baldassare Cossa (John XXIII), antipope of the Pisan line, 1410–1415
39. Gil Sánchez Muñoz (Clement VIII), antipope of the Avignon line, 1423–1429
40. Bernard Garnier (the first Benedict XIV), antipope of the Avignon line, 1425–c. 1429
41. Jean Carrier (the second Benedict XIV), antipope of the Avignon line, 1430–1437
42. Duke Amadeus VIII of Savoy (Felix V), 5 November 1439 – 7 April 1449
(Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia)
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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2013, 08:44:09 AM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here.

No, I'd venture to say that I'm very different. (Although I am technically a sedevacantist since Feb 28.)


what were you on feb 27, do you believe Benedict is not a heretic? you are eastern catholic correct
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2013, 08:46:26 AM »

....we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
Since the Vatican is not catholic, where do we find the "true catholic church"? Who are the bishops of the "true catholic church"?
http://assemblyofbishops.org/directories/bishops
http://oca.org/directories/world-churches
Quote
Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.  Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil.
St. Ignatius of Antioch, the successor of St. Peter, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2013, 08:51:09 AM »

....we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
Since the Vatican is not catholic, where do we find the "true catholic church"? Who are the bishops of the "true catholic church"?
PopeSt. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
fixed that for you.

Your supreme pontiff Boniface VIII: "we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

So, where's your "Roman Pontiff" now?
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2013, 09:24:52 AM »

So there hasn't been a serious antipope since the middle ages, and you, sedevacantist, have the presumption to set yourself against your bishops? Why don't you just become a Protestant and get it over with?
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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2013, 10:08:17 AM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin

What about the post-schism EO saints that are saints in the Roman Church as well? And aren't sedevacantists outside of the Church as well?
not sure about the saints, sedes are not outside the church since we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
They have been severed almost a millenium before "vatican 2".  Since you believe, I take it, in Vatican I, where is your Pastor Aeternus?
there have been many anti popes in history, it doesn't take away papal primacy...would you like to argue papal primacy here?
Here, or anywhere you would like.

But in the meantime, as for the silly notion of "anti-pope,"  I don't know of one that didn't have a "real" pope as his rival.  Something new?
whats so silly?
Because the bishop of Rome is just a bishop.  There's a canonical bishop at Rome (at present:

Bishop Siluan), and there can be rivals-heretical bishops, schismatic bishops, pseudo-bishops, bishops who are pretenders to a see, etc.-like any other episcopal see, but not "anti-bishops."  Just like there were pseudo-Apostles, and Apostles, but no "anti-apostles."

in the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church, there have been more than 40 antipopes. An
antipope is a bishop who claims to be the pope, but was not canonically elected as Bishop of
Rome (i.e., supreme pontiff). Here is a list of the 42 antipopes that the Church had to contend
with before Vatican II:
You are aware that this list has been revised several times-post facto, of course-no?

You also have a problem with your definition, as your supreme pontiffs John XXIII (really XXIV-if you don't believe in him, his defining Pope John XXIII, your number 38 below, as "antipope" doesn't count.  Your supreme pontiffs, however, numbered #38 among the numbers in the Annuario Pontificio before), Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II and Benedict XVI were canonically elected as Bishop of Rome (i.e. supreme pontiff) according to Pastor Aeternus.

Which is worse off for you: according to your supreme pontiff Pius XII's "Apostolic Constitution" "Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis", only the conclave of cardinals can chose your supreme pontiff, and only a supreme pontiff can make a cardinal.  All those "valid" (according to your beliefs) cardinals are now dead, and dead conclaves elect no "pope."

Is your conclave going to look like this?


1. St. Hippolytus (reconciled with Pope St. Pontian and died as martyr to the church),
217–235
2. Novatian, 251–258
3. Felix II (confused with a martyr with the same name and thus considered an authentic
pope until recently), 355–365
4. Ursicinus (Ursinus), 366–367
5. Eulalius, 418–419
6. Laurentius, 498–499, 501–506
7. Dioscorus (legitimate perhaps as opposed to Boniface II but died 22 days after
election), 530
8. Theodore (II) (opposed to antipope Paschal), 687
9. Paschal (I) (opposed to antipope Theodore), 687
10. Theofylact, 757
11. Constantine II, 767–768
12. Philip (replaced antipope Constantine II briefly; reigned for a day and then returned
to his monastery), 768
13. John VIII, 844
14. Anastasius III Bibliothecarius, 855
15. Christopher, 903–904
16. Boniface VII, 974, 984–985
17. John Filagatto (John XVI), 997–9
8. Gregory VI, 1012
19. Sylvester III, 1045
20. John Mincius (Benedict X), 1058–1059
21. Pietro Cadalus (Honorius II), 1061–1064
22. Guibert of Ravenna (Clement III), 1080 & 1084–1100
23. Theodoric, 1100–1101
24. Adalbert, 1101
25. Maginulf (Sylvester IV), 1105–1111
26. Maurice Burdanus (Gregory VIII), 1118–1121
27. Thebaldus Buccapecuc (Celestine II) (legitimate but submitted to opposing pope,
Honorius II, and afterwards considered an antipope), 1124
28. Pietro Pierleoni (Anacletus II), 1130–1138
29. Gregorio Conti (Victor IV), 1138
30. Ottavio di Montecelio (Victor IV), 1159–1164
31. Guido di Crema (Paschal III), 1164–1168
32. Giovanni of Struma (Callixtus III), 1168–1178
33. Lanzo of Sezza (Innocent III), 1179–1180
34. Pietro Rainalducci (Nicholas V), antipope in Rome, 1328–1330
35. Robert of Geneva (Clement VII), antipope of the Avignon line, 20 September 1378 – 16
September 1394
36. Pedro de Luna (Benedict XIII), antipope of the Avignon line, 1394–1423
37. Pietro Philarghi Alexander V, antipope of the Pisan line, 1409–1410
38. Baldassare Cossa (John XXIII), antipope of the Pisan line, 1410–1415
39. Gil Sánchez Muñoz (Clement VIII), antipope of the Avignon line, 1423–1429
40. Bernard Garnier (the first Benedict XIV), antipope of the Avignon line, 1425–c. 1429
41. Jean Carrier (the second Benedict XIV), antipope of the Avignon line, 1430–1437
42. Duke Amadeus VIII of Savoy (Felix V), 5 November 1439 – 7 April 1449
(Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia)
You forgot the last column in your source:

In opposition to
0 (you seem to have skipped one in your source, Natlius, c. 200). Zephyrinus
1. Callixtus I, Urban I, Pontian
2. Cornelius, Lucius I, Stephen I, Sixtus II
3. Liberius. "Confused with a martyr" i.e. saint. Doesn't inspire much confidence on this ability to sort out "popes" and "anti-popes"
4. Damasus I
5. Boniface I
6. Symmachus
7. Boniface I. Dioscoros was legitimate, Boniface was not.  You guys should be more sure about these things.
8.  Sergius I. Since he was "opposed to antipope Paschal", wouldn't that make him "anti-anti-pope," and therefore "pope"?
9.  Sergius I
10. Paul I
11. Stephen III
12. Stephen III
13. Sergius II
14. Benedict III
15. Between Leo V and Sergious III (so they can occur Sede vacans)
16. Between Benedict VI and Benedict VII, and between John XIV and John XV
17. Gregory V
18. Benedict VIII
19. Benedict IX.  Odd, as Sylvester the Annuario Pontificio lists him as a "supreme pontiff."
20. Nicholas II
21. Alexander II
22. Gregory VII, Victor II, Urban II, Paschal II
23. Paschal II
24. Paschal II
25. Paschal II
26. Paschal II, Gelasius II, Callixtus II
27. Honorius II
28. Innocent II
29. Innocent II
30. Alexander III
31. Alexander III
32. Alexander III
33. Alexander III
34. John XXII
35. Urban VI, Boniface IX
36. Boniface IX, Innocent VII, Gregory XII, Martin V
37. Gregory XII
38. Gregory XII [although Martin V should be listed here too]
39. Martin V
40. Martin V
41. Eugen IV
42. Nicholas V

And of course, your continuation.
                                                                                      In opposition to
43. John XXIII/XXIV  1958-1963                                           the invisible man
44. Paul VI 1963-1978
45. John Paul I 1978 (reigned for 33 days)
46. John Paul II 1978-2005
47. Benedict XVI 2005-2013
48. ? (since the college of cardinals, according to you, has died out, any elected successor ipso facto would be an "anti-pope")

Gotta go to DL, and afterwards I'll be visiting, Lord willing, my best friend since High School (one run by the Resurrectionists). He's technically a sedevantist too, but only since the end of this last month.  Lord willing I'll be back.
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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2013, 10:09:31 AM »

So there hasn't been a serious antipope since the middle ages, and you, sedevacantist, have the presumption to set yourself against your bishops? Why don't you just become a Protestant and get it over with?

after all, an invisible supreme head needs an invisible church.
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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2013, 11:32:09 AM »

....we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
Since the Vatican is not catholic, where do we find the "true catholic church"? Who are the bishops of the "true catholic church"?
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

St. Ignatius of Antioch teaches that the Church is where the bishop is.  Sedes don't have a bishop.
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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2013, 12:09:18 PM »

So there hasn't been a serious antipope since the middle ages, and you, sedevacantist, have the presumption to set yourself against your bishops? Why don't you just become a Protestant and get it over with?

we haven't had a true pope since 1958, how can I be protestant if I believe in the papacy, if pope is a heretic he ceases to be head of the church
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2013, 12:37:48 PM »

....we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
Since the Vatican is not catholic, where do we find the "true catholic church"? Who are the bishops of the "true catholic church"?
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

St. Ignatius of Antioch teaches that the Church is where the bishop is.  Sedes don't have a bishop.
Our Lord Himself indicates that the size of the Church will become frighteningly small in the last
days.
Luke 18:8: “But yet, when the Son of man cometh, shall He find, think you, faith on
earth?”
The Apocalypse of St. John seems to indicate the same.
Apocalypse 11:1-2:
“And there was given me a reed like unto a rod, and it was said to me: Arise, and
measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that adore in it. But the court, which
is without the temple, cast out, and measure it not, because it is given to the Gentiles...”
The Haydock version of the Douay-Rheims Bible, a popular compilation of Catholic commentary on
the Scriptures by Rev. Fr. Geo. Leo Haydock, contains the following comment on Apoc. 11:1-2.
Catholic Commentary on Apoc. 11:1-2, Haydock version of the Douay-Rheims Bible:
“The churches consecrated to the true God, are so much diminished in number, that
they are represented by St. John as one church; its ministers officiate at one altar; and
all the true faithful are so few, with respect to the bulk of mankind, that the evangelist
sees them assembled in one temple, to pay their adorations to the Most High. -
Pastorini.” 85
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church has never taught that there must always be a certain
number of bishops or faithful for the Church to exist. As long as there is at least one priest or
bishop and at least a few faithful, the Church and the hierarchy are alive and visible. Today there
is much more than a handful of faithful left who maintain the unchanging Catholic Faith.

If it’s true that there must be one bishop with ordinary jurisdiction somewhere (which is
something that has not been proven), then he is somewhere. But it doesn’t change the fact that
Benedict XVI and his apostate bishops are not Catholic and therefore not part of the hierarchy.
Against a fact there is no argument; against this fact there is no argument.

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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2013, 12:39:44 PM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin


48. ? (since the college of cardinals, according to you, has died out, any elected successor ipso facto would be an "anti-pope")


yes
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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2013, 01:31:14 PM »



 Grin

W
[/quote]
They have been severed almost a millenium before "vatican 2".  Since you believe, I take it, in Vatican I, where is your Pastor Aeternus?
[/quote]
there have been many anti popes in history, it doesn't take away papal primacy...would you like to argue papal primacy here?
[/quote]
Here, or anywhere you would like.

But in the meantime, as for the silly notion of "anti-pope,"  I don't know of one that didn't have a "real" pope as his rival.  Something new?
[/quote]
whats so silly?[/quote]
Because the bishop of Rome is just a bishop.  There's a canonical bishop at Rome

[/quote]
of course we are in disagreement, so before we get to the church fathers lets start with the bible, I'm interested in your take of
 John 21:15-17,and also  is Peter the "rock"
for starters
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« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2013, 01:35:00 PM »

Why should we accept a non-existing (according to you) Papacy? That would be the height of folly.
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« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2013, 06:04:08 PM »

So there hasn't been a serious antipope since the middle ages, and you, sedevacantist, have the presumption to set yourself against your bishops? Why don't you just become a Protestant and get it over with?

we haven't had a true pope since 1958, how can I be protestant if I believe in the papacy, if pope is a heretic he ceases to be head of the church
So your are a headless ecclesial community protesting the present Vatican papacy.
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« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2013, 06:05:22 PM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin


48. ? (since the college of cardinals, according to you, has died out, any elected successor ipso facto would be an "anti-pope")


yes
then, according to Pastor Aeternus, you are pretty much S.O.L.
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« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2013, 06:08:16 PM »

But it doesn’t change the fact that
Benedict XVI and his apostate bishops are not Catholic and therefore not part of the hierarchy.

But that doesn't prevent you from taking Eucharist from a priest ordained by them. If they aren't bishops how could they ordain anyone?
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« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2013, 06:13:00 PM »


 Grin

W
They have been severed almost a millenium before "vatican 2".  Since you believe, I take it, in Vatican I, where is your Pastor Aeternus?
there have been many anti popes in history, it doesn't take away papal primacy...would you like to argue papal primacy here?
Here, or anywhere you would like.

But in the meantime, as for the silly notion of "anti-pope,"  I don't know of one that didn't have a "real" pope as his rival.  Something new?
whats so silly?
Because the bishop of Rome is just a bishop.  There's a canonical bishop at Rome

of course we are in disagreement, so before we get to the church fathers lets start with the bible, I'm interested in your take of
 John 21:15-17,and also  is Peter the "rock"
for starters
First, less smiling, more learning how to work the quote feature. Grin

John 21? I take it as St. John and the Fathers leave it: St. Peter denied Christ three times-the facts around which give the reason of why St. Peter is mentioned more times than the other Apostles in the Gospels-and here He gives St. Peter the opportunity to repent of it.  He failed his apostleship, was given a second chance, repented, and moved on.

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« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2013, 06:13:39 PM »

But it doesn’t change the fact that
Benedict XVI and his apostate bishops are not Catholic and therefore not part of the hierarchy.

But that doesn't prevent you from taking Eucharist from a priest ordained by them. If they aren't bishops how could they ordain anyone?
It seems that our friend is more Protestant than he knows.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2013, 06:20:24 PM »

....we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
Since the Vatican is not catholic, where do we find the "true catholic church"? Who are the bishops of the "true catholic church"?
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

St. Ignatius of Antioch teaches that the Church is where the bishop is.  Sedes don't have a bishop.
Our Lord Himself indicates that the size of the Church will become frighteningly small in the last
days.
Luke 18:8: “But yet, when the Son of man cometh, shall He find, think you, faith on
earth?”
The Apocalypse of St. John seems to indicate the same.
Apocalypse 11:1-2:
“And there was given me a reed like unto a rod, and it was said to me: Arise, and
measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that adore in it. But the court, which
is without the temple, cast out, and measure it not, because it is given to the Gentiles...”
The Haydock version of the Douay-Rheims Bible, a popular compilation of Catholic commentary on
the Scriptures by Rev. Fr. Geo. Leo Haydock, contains the following comment on Apoc. 11:1-2.
Catholic Commentary on Apoc. 11:1-2, Haydock version of the Douay-Rheims Bible:
“The churches consecrated to the true God, are so much diminished in number, that
they are represented by St. John as one church; its ministers officiate at one altar; and
all the true faithful are so few, with respect to the bulk of mankind, that the evangelist
sees them assembled in one temple, to pay their adorations to the Most High. -
Pastorini.” 85
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church has never taught that there must always be a certain
number of bishops or faithful for the Church to exist. As long as there is at least one priest or
bishop and at least a few faithful, the Church and the hierarchy are alive and visible. Today there
is much more than a handful of faithful left who maintain the unchanging Catholic Faith.

If it’s true that there must be one bishop with ordinary jurisdiction somewhere (which is
something that has not been proven), then he is somewhere. But it doesn’t change the fact that
Benedict XVI and his apostate bishops are not Catholic and therefore not part of the hierarchy.
Against a fact there is no argument; against this fact there is no argument.
The Catholic Church does so teach that numbers do not count, but Vatican I added this supreme pontiff requirement, and it requires you have at least one of them.  You neither have one nor the means to get one, as your supreme pontiffs have required at least one cardinal to make a supreme pontiff, and only supreme pontiffs can make cardinals.  As your supreme pontiffs and cardinals are all dead, you can have millions of faithful and thousands of bishops and ten thousands of priests, and you still won't make the minimum requirement for your petite eglise.
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« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2013, 07:43:45 PM »

Hi, I'm new to this thread, I'm a sedevacantist Catholic, just started attending a ukranian catholic mass as I feel it's my only option to get a good confession and communion. The mass is said in a language which I don't understand which doesn't matter as I simply pray by myself. Wondering if any others like me here. My belief is not popular as I believe the   eastern orthodox are outside the church and will sadly go to hell for this, also novus order catholics will sadly perish. I'm not here to offend anyone but would like to discuss issues.

 Grin

What about the post-schism EO saints that are saints in the Roman Church as well? And aren't sedevacantists outside of the Church as well?
not sure about the saints, sedes are not outside the church since we know the vatican is clearly anti catholic,  all post vatican 2 popes are heretics and are ipsofcto severed from the true catholic church
They have been severed almost a millenium before "vatican 2".  Since you believe, I take it, in Vatican I, where is your Pastor Aeternus?
there have been many anti popes in history, it doesn't take away papal primacy...would you like to argue papal primacy here?
Be prepared. These guys are much better at this debate than your average Protestant.
why, thank you.
Not you Izzy.  Grin Never you.  Cheesy
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« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2013, 08:33:36 PM »

Why should we accept a non-existing (according to you) Papacy? That would be the height of folly.
what folly? are you catholic?
 if so you must accept that the seat is vacant because the catholic church teaches a heretic can not be pope
The Catholic Encyclopedia, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “The pope
himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope
because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”
so are you saying Benedict is not a heretic?
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sedevacantist
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« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2013, 08:40:36 PM »


[/quote]
First, less smiling, more learning how to work the quote feature. Grin

John 21? I take it as St. John and the Fathers leave it: St. Peter denied Christ three times-the facts around which give the reason of why St. Peter is mentioned more times than the other Apostles in the Gospels-and here He gives St. Peter the opportunity to repent of it.  He failed his apostleship, was given a second chance, repented, and moved on.


[/quote]
smile wasn't mine but yes I have to learn the quote thingy better..your explanation of the passage is inadequate, here's the truth
John 21:15-17

 

We see here , in John 21, that Jesus entrusts all of His sheep top St Peter. The dogmatic First Vatican Council of the catholic Church said that this moment in John 21, after the resurrection of Jesus , was the moment that Jesus actually gave  to St Peter the keys and the authority over His church which He had promised him in Matthew 16.
Jesus tells Peter to rule His sheep

It’s important to emphasize that the moment after the Resurrection, in John 21, was the point at which Jesus made St Peter the first pope. This is significant because some non Catholics bring up St Peter’s 3 fold denial of Christ in john 18:25 and following.  When peter denied Jesus Christ, it was before the Crucifixion and Resurrection. Jesus had not yet given St peter the authority as pope. The words in MT 16:18-20 promise the keys of the Kingdom to St Peter. They promise that Jesus would build His Church upon Him and make him the prime minister of His Church, but that office was not conferred upon peter until after the RESURRECTION, BY THESE WORDS IN John21:15-17. Therefore, St Peter’s  denial of Christ poses no problem at all for Catholic teaching on the papacy.

John 21:15-17

Jesus tells Peter to feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my sheep. Jesus clearly gives St Peter authority over His flock, the members of His church. Some may ask why Jesus says the 1st time, feed my lambs, and the 2nd and 3rd times my sheep. The early church fathers understood this reference to lambs and sheep to differentiate between youngerand older members of the Church, or to distinguish between the faithful and the clergy . All of them are entrusted to St Peter.

 

Now what’s particularly important is that when Jesus says Feed my lambs etc..the 2nd  command of the 3 is the word poimaine in Greek. Many bibles will translate all 3 the same way, as “feed”, but the 2nd command is actually different from the 1st and 3rd.

 

John 21:15-17 “ He saith unto him, Feed (boske) my lambs…he saith unto him tend (poimane) my sheep…Jesus saith unto him, feed (boske) my sheep.”

 

In the 1st and 3rd commands that Jesus gives to Peter about His flock, the word in the greek is boske. Boske means to feed. But the word poimane, the 2nd command of Jesus to peter about the flock, means to rule. It is also translated as tend. Hence, Jesus not only commissioned Peter to feed His Church, but to rule it. It’s fascinating that a form of the very same word poimane, which Jesus uses about peter’s authority over the flock in John 21:16, is also used in revelation 2:27

 

Rev 2;27 “ And he shall rule (poimanei) with a rod of iron..”

 

That means that Peter not only has a primacy over Christ’s flock, but a primacy of jurisdiction to rule and govern the flock, contrary to what Eastern Orthodox would say. The same word poimane is used in Rev 12:5 and elsewhere to indicate the power to rule.
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choy
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« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2013, 08:44:43 PM »

if so you must accept that the seat is vacant because the catholic church teaches a heretic can not be pope

But how can a Pope be a heretic?  A pope cannot be judged by anyone except God.  A pope can declare anything under the sun as dogma and no one can stop him from doing it (says so in Pastor Aeternus).
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