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Author Topic: the magical thinking of papal infallibility no longer makes any sense to me  (Read 9026 times) Average Rating: 0
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sedevacantist
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« Reply #135 on: March 24, 2013, 11:15:08 AM »

Quote from: sedevacantist
John Paul II did the equivalent of worshipping at the tomb of Mahomet when he kissed the blasphemous Koran, when he praised Islam and its leaders countless times, and when he attended the mosque.  Just imagine what the Catholic saints would say about the Vatican II sect and John Paul II?  They would utterly denounce John Paul II and the Vatican II sect as completely apostate just for their teaching and actions with regard to the false religion of Islam:

Pope Francis, as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, visited the mosque and synagogue.

I just do not get how Catholics can be sedevacantists and still believe in the Papacy.
you are confusing 2 issues, the papacy which is biblical, and the fact that sedevacantists believe the chair of Peter is empty because the fact of the matte is the pope is  a heretic, is not catholic and shouldn't be followed, why is this so confusing?
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« Reply #136 on: March 24, 2013, 11:16:54 AM »

Pope Francis, as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, visited the mosque and synagogue.

I just do not get how Catholics can be sedevacantists and still believe in the Papacy.

Sedevacantists are not Catholics.
I have shown by answering all your questions on the other topic that my answers can not be refuted and that you don't know what you are talking about.
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« Reply #137 on: March 24, 2013, 11:19:47 AM »


Then, why are you a sedevacantist?

If God were to be directing the Roman Catholic Church, why would He allow the papacy to fall vacant for almost 100 years? Since you quote so extensively from the Dimond brothers, do you think they possess some kind of infallibility? 
Good question. Both Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden say that Francis is the Pope. The Dimond brothers say Francis is not the Pope. Why should we believe the Dimond brothers over Nancy Pelosi?
please tell me you're joking about Pelosi being catholic, you shouldn't think Francis is not a pope because the Dimond brothers said so, Francis is not a true pope because he goes against the magisterium, against catholic teacing
example 1
http://www.israelunseen.com/new-pope-jorge-bergoglio-celebrated-hannukah-as-cardinal-of-buenos-aires/#.U
can you not  see by this simple example why he's not catholic?
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. I-II, Q. 103., A. 4: “All ceremonies are professions of faith, in which the interior worship of God consists.  Now man can make profession of his inward faith, by deeds as well as by words: and in either profession, if he make a false declaration, he sins mortally.”

 

So, when John Paul II and now Benedict XVI (with high-ranking members of the Vatican II sect) attend the mosque, the Buddhist Temple, the Lutheran temple and the synagogue they are manifesting their apostasy by their deed.  They are manifesting by their deed that they accept these false religions, and that these people don’t need to become Catholic for salvation.  When Benedict XVI entered the synagogue and took active part in a Jewish worship service on August 19, 2005, he was manifesting his apostasy (his acceptance of the false Jewish religion) by his deed.  That is why St. Thomas Aquinas taught that if anyone were to worship at the tomb of Mohammed he would be an apostate.  Such an action alone would show that he does not have the Catholic Faith, and that he accepts the false Islamic religion.   

 

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. II, Q. 12, A. 1, Obj. 2: “… if anyone were to… worship at the tomb of Mahomet, he would be deemed an apostate.”

 

Description: Catholic Saints

John Paul II kissing the Koran, May 14, 1999

 

John Paul II did the equivalent of worshipping at the tomb of Mahomet when he kissed the blasphemous Koran, when he praised Islam and its leaders countless times, and when he attended the mosque.  Just imagine what the Catholic saints would say about the Vatican II sect and John Paul II?  They would utterly denounce John Paul II and the Vatican II sect as completely apostate just for their teaching and actions with regard to the false religion of Islam:

 

St. Francis Xavier, May, 1546: “The evil [of Islam] was introduced by some Mahometan caicizes (ministers of religion), who came from Mecca in Arabia, where the accursed body of Mahomet is honored with great superstition.”

 

St. Francis of Assisi (+ c. 1210): [To the Muslims] “We have come to preach faith in Jesus Christ to you, that you will renounce Mohammad, that wicked slave of the devil, and obtain everlasting life like us.”

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/VaticanII_mainpage.php
Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden do not believe that the Pope has apostasized. Why should I believe what the Dimond brothers say. After all, no one elected them to anything.
how come you can't answer my question concerning the pope, why do you care what Nancy Pelosi thinks, do you know anything about her? do you know about the new world order? you should believe what the Dimonds say based on the facts they present or prove them wrong
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« Reply #138 on: March 24, 2013, 11:20:24 AM »

The False Apparitions at Bayside, NY
The False Apparitions at Medjugorje

Protip: the other apparitions are all false too.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 11:21:33 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #139 on: March 24, 2013, 12:57:32 PM »

Dear Melesine,

I want you to look at the bright side in all of this.  You've come quite far.  You have limited your choices between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.  This means what is common between the two, which is a lot and I believe essential, you already believe and are convinced.  That is something to be thankful for, and to encourage you in continued praying.

I wish you God's blessings in your spiritual journey.
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« Reply #140 on: March 24, 2013, 03:02:20 PM »


Please tell me that, as a sedevecantist, Br. Dimond does not have an agenda?  Sorry, but one look at the homepage of the "monastery", was a complete and utter turnoff.  So, yeah, I'm biased.  Wink


Oh, of course, Br. Dimond has an agenda, but we can agree that he is a little misguided and needs our prayers.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 03:06:53 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #141 on: March 24, 2013, 05:19:52 PM »

Pope Francis, as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, visited the mosque and synagogue.

I just do not get how Catholics can be sedevacantists and still believe in the Papacy.

Sedevacantists are not Catholics.
I have shown by answering all your questions on the other topic that my answers can not be refuted...
"You cannot prove me wrong; therefore, I must be right." Sorry, buddy. That's not how debate works.
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« Reply #142 on: March 24, 2013, 05:34:01 PM »

Today, although Catholic priests of a vacant diocese may choose three candidates, the Pope has the final say as to which one is elected.

Pope can ordain the 4th candidate, not included in that list.
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« Reply #143 on: March 24, 2013, 05:36:58 PM »

Today, although Catholic priests of a vacant diocese may choose three candidates, the Pope has the final say as to which one is elected.

Pope can ordain the 4th candidate, not included in that list.

Not what I was told by the Bishop of Newton, nor by the bishop sent by Rome to investigate candidates back in 1994.
A diocese only submits three names at a time, if none of the three are acceptable, then they must submit a new list, and on and on. That is why this new crazy process takes so long.

However, I have not read the new REVISED CODE OF CANON LAW. And it has been revised TWICE since its maiden publication in 1917. Perhaps they revised the election code. I do not know, and frankly I do not care what the ungodly Vatican has done. Nevertheless, I am certainly praying for Catholics. 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 05:39:49 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #144 on: March 24, 2013, 06:08:59 PM »

The False Apparitions at Bayside, NY
The False Apparitions at Medjugorje

Protip: the other apparitions are all false too.
sorry Fatima is not false, I suggest you look into the subject in depth
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« Reply #145 on: March 24, 2013, 06:09:24 PM »

There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church

... which, of course, you aren't a part of.
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« Reply #146 on: March 24, 2013, 06:11:36 PM »


There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church.
I know many Eastern Catholic priests and even bishops who detest it as it has changed the wording of Sacred Canons.
Okay, so they do. I don't purport to know anything about this code of canon law nor about the Melkite and Eastern Catholic hatred for it, so I'm not going to comment on any of that. I just think you should either submit much stronger proof of your claim that this code of canon law helped trigger World War I or disavow your claim as the piece of garbage history it is.

If you had read the book, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, with an open mind, you would see the connection. But I guess that is too much to ask.

I cannot quote major portions of Cornwell's book without incurring copyright violations, and I will not waste my time babying people who refuse to read and learn history.

I'll admit that I haven't read Cornwell's book.  I also haven't read this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Hitlers-Pope-Against-Germany/dp/0895260344/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1364139374&sr=1-1&keywords=the+myth+of+hitler%27s+pope

Have you?

Yes, I read excerpts. I was not impressed.

Cornwell does not claim that Pope Pius XII did not rescue Jews. (Please excuse the double negative.) It was well known that this Pope did help Jews who managed to escape into Vatican City.

When Cornwell started to write his book, he did so to affirm P. Pius XII who was being investigated by the Vatican as a possible saint. However, when he really started to search deep into the Vatican archives, then he uncovered a lot of information that pointed the other way and showed that P. Pius XII was very political and not so saintly, but was apparently deluted and filled with prelest. After writing this book, Cornwell's Catholic faith was shaken to the core. In 1999, when Cornwell's book was published, our family had already embraced Orthodoxy, so the book just confirmed that our family had made the correct decision.

An interesting tidbit: When I read Cornwell's book, I corresponded with Brother Dimond and suggested that he read it too. At first, he rejected that idea. So, I encouraged him to read the encyclicals of P. Pius XII, especially M. Corporus, where this pope not only called for liturgical abuse to stop, but also called for the establishment of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions throughout the world.

These same Liturgical Commissions established by P. Pius XII began to clammer for another council, Vatican II, and with primary support of Jesuits these commissions encouraged the revision of the Mass. I attended some Jesuit retreats for school children back before Vatican II, where the Jesuits had already begun to experiment with the Mass. After Vatican II, the Jesuits would often stage agape meals in place of the Mass using Irish Soda bread complete with raisins and caraway seeds as the "bread" for the Mass. Finally, the real liturgical abuse began with clown, beer, and bikini masses. I witnessed it all in Northern and Southern California. The Jesuits told me that these liturgical experiments were occurring in North America, France, England, and in South America. Finally, a good priest brought me to my senses when I realized that such masses were destroying my faith. I left the Novus Ordo jungle, became a Melkite Eastern Catholic, and then finally crossed the bridge over into Orthodoxy.

Back in the early 2000s, I also encouraged Br. Dimond to read the 1917 Code of Canon Law and the revisions done in the early 1990s and again in the early 2000s. Shortly thereafter, Br. Dimond changed his story and started addressing both P. Pius XII and P. Pius XI as Anti-Popes. His list of Anti-Popes seems to get longer with every year that passes. Soon, I think Br. Dimond might go so far as to become an Old Roman Catholic or embrace Orthodoxy when Papal supremacy and Papal infallibility no longer have any validity for him.

Let us pray for Br. Dimond and his Holy Family Monastery that they may be saved.
I will pray for you that 1 day you will see the light, you are outside the church , Pope Pius X11 isn't an anti pope, show me where he wrote this, and there's no chance he would embrace orthodoxy or any old catholic religion
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« Reply #147 on: March 24, 2013, 06:12:16 PM »

There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church

... which, of course, you aren't a part of.

Why should they care about it? They follow the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches instead.
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« Reply #148 on: March 24, 2013, 06:15:32 PM »

Pope Francis, as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, visited the mosque and synagogue.

I just do not get how Catholics can be sedevacantists and still believe in the Papacy.

Sedevacantists are not Catholics.
I have shown by answering all your questions on the other topic that my answers can not be refuted...
"You cannot prove me wrong; therefore, I must be right." Sorry, buddy. That's not how debate works.
so making a wild accusation that I'm not  catholic based on nothing is how a debate works? I already disproved everything he wrote on the other thread with facts, that's how a debate works , sorry buddy.
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« Reply #149 on: March 24, 2013, 06:49:39 PM »

Have we collectively succeeded in running off the original poster?

Well, that's possible.

Speaking for myself, I became interested in reading this thread (which was already very long when I found it) because of what Melesine said; but in reading it, I found it had so many crazy twists that I decided to respond to them, rather than Melesine, in my initial posts.
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« Reply #150 on: March 24, 2013, 06:51:27 PM »

so making a wild accusation that I'm not  catholic
...

I take it that you want people to describe you as "not in communion with Rome" rather than "not Catholic"?
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« Reply #151 on: March 24, 2013, 06:55:23 PM »

so making a wild accusation that I'm not  catholic
...

I take it that you want people to describe you as "not in communion with Rome" rather than "not Catholic"?

We only need ialmisry now and the "debate" - I am Catholic - You are not. I'm Catholic - You are not. I'm Catholic... can get started...
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 06:55:42 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #152 on: March 24, 2013, 07:00:39 PM »

so making a wild accusation that I'm not  catholic
...

I take it that you want people to describe you as "not in communion with Rome" rather than "not Catholic"?

We only need ialmisry now and the "debate" - I am Catholic - You are not. I'm Catholic - You are not. I'm Catholic... can get started...

LOL!  And maps.  This thread is in dire need of huge maps.  Lots of them.  They always definitely prove something.  Infallibly so, too.  Grin Grin

(Sorry, Isa, it's hard impossible to resist  angel.)
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« Reply #153 on: March 24, 2013, 07:27:44 PM »

so making a wild accusation that I'm not  catholic based on nothing is how a debate works? I already disproved everything he wrote on the other thread with facts, that's how a debate works , sorry buddy.

It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
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« Reply #154 on: March 24, 2013, 07:41:18 PM »

so making a wild accusation that I'm not  catholic based on nothing is how a debate works? I already disproved everything he wrote on the other thread with facts, that's how a debate works , sorry buddy.

It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
Why are we Orthodox arguing on an Orthodox discussion board that some sedevacantist is not Roman Catholic? Does it even matter to us what side someone takes in what is essentially a squabble internal to the Roman Catholic Church? If Isa is to be believed, Roman Catholics, to include the sedevacantists, are neither Roman nor Catholic, and they're certainly not Orthodox.

We Orthodox are not parties to the internal squabbles Roman Catholics might have among themselves, so let's let them fight out their own squabbles (where and how appropriate on this forum) without us stepping in to take one side or the other.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 07:47:31 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #155 on: March 24, 2013, 07:55:03 PM »

so making a wild accusation that I'm not  catholic based on nothing is how a debate works? I already disproved everything he wrote on the other thread with facts, that's how a debate works , sorry buddy.

It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
Why are we Orthodox arguing on an Orthodox discussion board that some sedevacantist is not Roman Catholic?

Well, when you think about it, you Orthodox are really sedevacantists yourselves -- albeit a less crazy kind of sedevacantist (in my opinion).  Smiley
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« Reply #156 on: March 24, 2013, 08:01:33 PM »

so making a wild accusation that I'm not  catholic based on nothing is how a debate works? I already disproved everything he wrote on the other thread with facts, that's how a debate works , sorry buddy.

It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
Why are we Orthodox arguing on an Orthodox discussion board that some sedevacantist is not Roman Catholic?

Well, when you think about it, you Orthodox are really sedevacantists yourselves -- albeit a less crazy kind of sedevacantist (in my opinion).  Smiley
I'm certainly not against you thinking us sedevacantists. Unlike the sedevacantists that arose as a reaction to Vatican II, we believe the Pope vacated the Roman See by falling into heresy in 1054. Wink
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« Reply #157 on: March 24, 2013, 08:11:50 PM »

we believe the Pope vacated the Roman See by falling into heresy in 1054. Wink

What heresy did they fall into in 1054?  Shocked
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« Reply #158 on: March 24, 2013, 08:38:21 PM »

we believe the Pope vacated the Roman See by falling into heresy in 1054. Wink

What heresy did they fall into in 1054?  Shocked

Dating the schism from the 11th, rather than 15th, century doesn't make sense to me, but it is conventional.
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« Reply #159 on: March 24, 2013, 08:45:36 PM »

we believe the Pope vacated the Roman See by falling into heresy in 1054. Wink

What heresy did they fall into in 1054?  Shocked

Dating the schism from the 11th, rather than 15th, century doesn't make sense to me, but it is conventional.

But he didn't say a schism happened in 1054. He said: "the Pope vacated the Roman See by falling into heresy in 1054"...  Cool
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« Reply #160 on: March 24, 2013, 09:23:02 PM »

Why are we Orthodox arguing on an Orthodox discussion board that some sedevacantist is not Roman Catholic? Does it even matter to us what side someone takes in what is essentially a squabble internal to the Roman Catholic Church? If Isa is to be believed, Roman Catholics, to include the sedevacantists, are neither Roman nor Catholic, and they're certainly not Orthodox.

We Orthodox are not parties to the internal squabbles Roman Catholics might have among themselves, so let's let them fight out their own squabbles (where and how appropriate on this forum) without us stepping in to take one side or the other.

For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  Grin
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« Reply #161 on: March 24, 2013, 09:53:21 PM »

The False Apparitions at Bayside, NY
The False Apparitions at Medjugorje

Protip: the other apparitions are all false too.
sorry Fatima is not false, I suggest you look into the subject in depth

Whether Fatima is true or not, it's irrelevant to your position since private revelation is always optional, a point I'm presuming you affirm.  If not, let us know so we can move on as you're then openly espousing heresy.

On a different topic, I still haven't had a sedevacantist explain the authority issue well to me.  As in, how do you have the authority, as laymen, to declare a Pope's election invalid?

You can make a case that John XXIII is an antipope.  I've heard others claim Paul VI was the first antipope, as well as Pius XII and as far back as Pope Leo XIII (reign ended 1903).  Google for lots of examples of all of these; it's the slippery slope of layman judging those in ecclesial authority. 

So how do you manage to make this judgment without falling into the same essential trap as Lutheranism?
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« Reply #162 on: March 24, 2013, 10:19:09 PM »

... how do you have the authority, as laymen, to declare a Pope's election invalid?
Good question for sedevacantist.
Here's another. Out of 1.2 billion Catholics, how many say that Francis is not the Pope?
And another: Among all Catholic bishops today, can you give me one who is not a heretic?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 10:20:29 PM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #163 on: March 24, 2013, 10:34:08 PM »

Here's another. Out of 1.2 billion Catholics, how many say that Francis is not the Pope?

Careful here, the Roman Catholic Church isn't a democracy.  If you're going by this, you'll lose the contraceptive and divorce debate.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 10:51:11 PM by choy » Logged
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« Reply #164 on: March 24, 2013, 10:36:15 PM »

Here's another. Out of 1.2 billion Catholics, how many say that Francis is not the Pope?

Careful here, the Roman Catholic Church isn't a democracy.  If you're going by this, you'll love the contraceptive and divorce debate.

Exactly. Go to any Catholic board, and you will see that the infallibility stamp on the Papacy has not stopped debate on abortion, contraceptive, and women as priests.
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« Reply #165 on: March 24, 2013, 10:51:30 PM »

Sorry, I meant one will LOSE the debate.
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« Reply #166 on: March 24, 2013, 10:53:33 PM »

Here's another. Out of 1.2 billion Catholics, how many say that Francis is not the Pope?

Careful here, the Roman Catholic Church isn't a democracy.  If you're going by this, you'll love the contraceptive and divorce debate.

Exactly. Go to any Catholic board, and you will see that the infallibility stamp on the Papacy has not stopped debate on abortion, contraceptive, and women as priests.

It's really hard to win a debate against women's ordination if they keep coming up with catchy tunes such as this one... http://youtu.be/Y0S2WlvNTU8

 Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy
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« Reply #167 on: March 24, 2013, 11:03:06 PM »

we believe the Pope vacated the Roman See by falling into heresy in 1054. Wink

What heresy did they fall into in 1054?  Shocked

Dating the schism from the 11th, rather than 15th, century doesn't make sense to me, but it is conventional.

Well if Papal Infaillability makes sense to you, you are not a reliable criteria for what makes sense or not.
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« Reply #168 on: March 24, 2013, 11:10:49 PM »

we believe the Pope vacated the Roman See by falling into heresy in 1054. Wink

What heresy did they fall into in 1054?  Shocked

Dating the schism from the 11th, rather than 15th, century doesn't make sense to me, but it is conventional.
I do understand that the issue of the schism between East and West is a lot more nuanced than I just made it out to be, but 1054 is a convenient year for the basest of polemics. Wink
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« Reply #169 on: March 24, 2013, 11:29:56 PM »

As a service to username!, I split off and moved the tangent on the 1913 change in canon law and World War I to here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=50698.0

-PtA
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« Reply #170 on: March 24, 2013, 11:35:18 PM »

thank you
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« Reply #171 on: March 24, 2013, 11:44:10 PM »

The False Apparitions at Bayside, NY
The False Apparitions at Medjugorje

Protip: the other apparitions are all false too.
sorry Fatima is not false, I suggest you look into the subject in depth

Whether Fatima is true or not, it's irrelevant to your position since private revelation is always optional, a point I'm presuming you affirm.  If not, let us know so we can move on as you're then openly espousing heresy.

On a different topic, I still haven't had a sedevacantist explain the authority issue well to me.  As in, how do you have the authority, as laymen, to declare a Pope's election invalid?

You can make a case that John XXIII is an antipope.  I've heard others claim Paul VI was the first antipope, as well as Pius XII and as far back as Pope Leo XIII (reign ended 1903).  Google for lots of examples of all of these; it's the slippery slope of layman judging those in ecclesial authority. 

So how do you manage to make this judgment without falling into the same essential trap as Lutheranism?
I will repeat what I wrote on the other thread
The Catholic Encyclopedia
, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “
The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”
St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal and Doctor of the Church,
De Romano Pontifice
, II, 30:
"A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head
, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church.
This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction."
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church,
The Catholic Controversy , pp.305-306: "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church.
So the easiest way as I see it to prove a pope is not a catholic is when he goes against the magisterium, for example can people of false religions be saved...
Pope Eugene IV,
Council of Florence
, “Cantate Domino,” 1441:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans
but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for
the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives...”
so vatican 2 is clearly not catholic to anyone who is of good will and knows how to read, we have John 23 who was a freemason, we have post vatican 2 popes praying in synagogues, just like this Francis chap, so I ask all catholics how can you in good faith be in communion with Rome and consider yourself Catholic? do you not realize there has been an infiltration of paedophiles? why is this so hard to see?
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« Reply #172 on: March 25, 2013, 04:25:20 AM »

The Catholic Encyclopedia
, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “
The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”
St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal and Doctor of the Church,


And that's why the Orthodox Church hasn't had a Roman Pope since 1054...
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« Reply #173 on: March 25, 2013, 11:08:53 AM »

It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.

For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  Grin

I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?
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« Reply #174 on: March 25, 2013, 11:43:56 AM »

It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.

For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  Grin

I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?

I for one think Choy has consistently put forth these views not as his own, but as what he has been taught in the Orthodox and Catholic Catechism classes respectively.
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« Reply #175 on: March 25, 2013, 11:50:05 AM »

It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.

For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  Grin

I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?

I for one think Choy has consistently put forth these views not as his own, but as what he has been taught in the Orthodox and Catholic Catechism classes respectively.
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
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« Reply #176 on: March 25, 2013, 12:02:49 PM »

I will pray for you that 1 day you will see the light, you are outside the church , Pope Pius X11 isn't an anti pope, show me where he wrote this, and there's no chance he would embrace orthodoxy or any old catholic religion
Aren't there some sede groups who think that he was an anti-Pope?
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« Reply #177 on: March 25, 2013, 12:02:49 PM »

It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.

For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  Grin

I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?

I for one think Choy has consistently put forth these views not as his own, but as what he has been taught in the Orthodox and Catholic Catechism classes respectively.
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
While I think Choy is just a great guy, you know very well that ex-Catholics can't help themselves.  Cheesy
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« Reply #178 on: March 25, 2013, 12:11:01 PM »

It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.

For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  Grin

I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?

Choy is no longer Catholic, but is not yet Orthodox.
Since he is an Orthodox catechumen, he is part of us.
Let us pray for him. 
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« Reply #179 on: March 25, 2013, 12:15:16 PM »

Since he is an Orthodox catechumen, he is part of us.

"Us"? He attends an OCA parish, you are a true-genuine-patristic-something type.

Oh, I forgot. You also can't decide whether you left your previous Church or not.
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