Topic: the magical thinking of papal infallibility no longer makes any sense to me

[Papist]

Balamand Agreement.

Actually, these Orthodox Priests were discouraging us from becoming Orthodox. They wanted us to remain Roman Catholics as their hierarchs had signed that Balamand Agreement.

This document has not been signed.

And @choy, stop using the "we" pronoun. I have not authorized you to be my spokesman. Speak for yourself if you share your own opinions.

Perhaps he is using the royal "we," in which case I fully support him. 

[mike]

Balamand Agreement.

Actually, these Orthodox Priests were discouraging us from becoming Orthodox. They wanted us to remain Roman Catholics as their hierarchs had signed that Balamand Agreement.

This document has not been signed.

And @choy, stop using the "we" pronoun. I have not authorized you to be my spokesman. Speak for yourself if you share your own opinions.

Perhaps he is using the royal "we," in which case I fully support him. 

I hope so. I got easily irritated by people who think they can speak on behalf of some group I belong to. You can call it my pet issue.

[choy]

And @choy, stop using the "we" pronoun. I have not authorized you to be my spokesman. Speak for yourself if you share your own opinions.

There is no "I" in Orthodoxy

[choy]

By the way Michal, when I use "we", those are not opinions.  Those are things that I have been taught.  So it is not coming from me as my opinion.

[Melesine]

I find it funny that whenever some one wants to dismiss a position with which he or she does not agree, this person will simply call it "magical." And the debate is over. Rock crushes scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, calling something "magic" nukes them all.

I can't think of any other way to describe it but magical. All of of a sudden you get a special super power, because you have been elected pope. No matter what you have ever believed or taught before.  

[J Michael]

I find it funny that whenever some one wants to dismiss a position with which he or she does not agree, this person will simply call it "magical." And the debate is over. Rock crushes scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, calling something "magic" nukes them all.

Meh, you have to admit that the theory that a Pope will get struck by a lightning bolt before preaching heresy is weird.

This is a theory that I've read about only on this board, and nowhere else.  Maybe I lead a sheltered life  .  But you're right...it is weird.

[J Michael]

I find it funny that whenever some one wants to dismiss a position with which he or she does not agree, this person will simply call it "magical." And the debate is over. Rock crushes scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, calling something "magic" nukes them all.

I can't think of any other way to describe it but magical. All of of a sudden you get a special super power, because you have been elected pope. No matter what you have ever believed or taught before.  

Don't Orthodox men get special "superpowers" too when they become ordained?  Don't Orthodox priests get some kind of special superpower when ordained to the episcopate?  I mean, just a few words and a laying on of hands endows them with the ability to pass on Apostolic succession, ordain priests, etc., etc.   How is that essentially different?  Is it "magical thinking" or "magic" that make the bread and wine become His Body and His Blood?  After all, they still look like and taste like bread and wine....

If you believe, then it's not "magical thinking".  If you do not believe, it's anything that you want to call it.  Or....maybe all belief and faith is magical thinking....especially if you do not believe or have faith.

But, the issue of the papacy has been hashed, rehashed, super rehashed, over hashed, and hashed until death on this board...If you believe Catholic doctrine and dogma (including those regarding the papacy), that's great and you can happily remain Catholic.  If you do not, you should not remain Catholic.  Pretty simple when all is said and done. 

[mike]

And @choy, stop using the "we" pronoun. I have not authorized you to be my spokesman. Speak for yourself if you share your own opinions.

There is no "I" in Orthodoxy

You are not Orthodox yet. Please, calm down your hyperenthusiasm a bit. I don't want you to burn down in a couple of month as several hyperenthusiastic converts or potential converts did.

And it's awkward to see self-proclaimed "defender of Orthodoxy" who no earlier than half a year ago used to be equally passionate defender of Papacy.

Moderation. Moderation is most important.

[Papist]

I find it funny that whenever some one wants to dismiss a position with which he or she does not agree, this person will simply call it "magical." And the debate is over. Rock crushes scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, calling something "magic" nukes them all.

Meh, you have to admit that the theory that a Pope will get struck by a lightning bolt before preaching heresy is weird.

You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that Bread and Wine become the body and blood of Christ. You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that a man was born as the result of a virgin birth. You have to believe its weird that we believe that a man can rise from the grave.
BTW, where does Pastor aeternus teach that the pope will be struck by lightening before being allowed to preach heresy?

[Cyrillic]

I find it funny that whenever some one wants to dismiss a position with which he or she does not agree, this person will simply call it "magical." And the debate is over. Rock crushes scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, calling something "magic" nukes them all.

Meh, you have to admit that the theory that a Pope will get struck by a lightning bolt before preaching heresy is weird.

You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that Bread and Wine become the body and blood of Christ. You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that a man was born as the result of a virgin birth. You have to believe its weird that we believe that a man can rise from the grave.

I can see your point  

BTW, where does Pastor aeternus teach that the pope will be struck by lightening before being allowed to preach heresy?

Nowhere, I think. It's just a curious RC theologoumenon that's floating around the internet. But can a Pope teach heresy ex cathedra? And if he wants to do that will he be able to do that? This is no polemic, just a question.

quoting tags editted - MK

[choy]

And @choy, stop using the "we" pronoun. I have not authorized you to be my spokesman. Speak for yourself if you share your own opinions.

There is no "I" in Orthodoxy

You are not Orthodox yet. Please, calm down your hyperenthusiasm a bit. I don't want you to burn down in a couple of month as several hyperenthusiastic converts or potential converts did.

And it's awkward to see self-proclaimed "defender of Orthodoxy" who no earlier than half a year ago used to be equally passionate defender of Papacy.

Moderation. Moderation is most important.

Well, as I stated, when I use "we" it is because it is from someone who qualifes as Orthodox who taught that to me.  So it is not from me, so it would also be wrong to simply just say "I".  Because as you said, I am not fully Orthodox, so what do I know. 

[choy]

You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that Bread and Wine become the body and blood of Christ. You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that a man was born as the result of a virgin birth. You have to believe its weird that we believe that a man can rise from the grave.
BTW, where does Pastor aeternus teach that the pope will be struck by lightening before being allowed to preach heresy?

Nobody says that.  The Holy Spirit just robs the Pope of his free will to say something contrary to doctrine.

[Cognomen]

And @choy, stop using the "we" pronoun. I have not authorized you to be my spokesman. Speak for yourself if you share your own opinions.

There is no "I" in Orthodoxy

You are not Orthodox yet. Please, calm down your hyperenthusiasm a bit. I don't want you to burn down in a couple of month as several hyperenthusiastic converts or potential converts did.

And it's awkward to see self-proclaimed "defender of Orthodoxy" who no earlier than half a year ago used to be equally passionate defender of Papacy.

Moderation. Moderation is most important.

I second this.

Choy, in a recent thread, I alluded to the proclamations and grand guidance you have given.  I hate it when catechumen is used derisively, but I have the same problem when it loses any meaning associated with someone receiving instruction.  We're all very pleased that you are becoming Orthodox and appreciate your zeal, but Michal's advice seems quite solid. Take this time to absorb the faith.  There will be plenty of time for the other stuff.  And don't take this as chastisement, just friendly advice.

[choy]

And @choy, stop using the "we" pronoun. I have not authorized you to be my spokesman. Speak for yourself if you share your own opinions.

There is no "I" in Orthodoxy

You are not Orthodox yet. Please, calm down your hyperenthusiasm a bit. I don't want you to burn down in a couple of month as several hyperenthusiastic converts or potential converts did.

And it's awkward to see self-proclaimed "defender of Orthodoxy" who no earlier than half a year ago used to be equally passionate defender of Papacy.

Moderation. Moderation is most important.

I second this.

Choy, in a recent thread, I alluded to the proclamations and grand guidance you have given.  I hate it when catechumen is used derisively, but I have the same problem when it loses any meaning associated with someone receiving instruction.  We're all very pleased that you are becoming Orthodox and appreciate your zeal, but Michal's advice seems quite solid. Take this time to absorb the faith.  There will be plenty of time for the other stuff.  And don't take this as chastisement, just friendly advice.

Am I being prejudiced here just becaue I am merely a catechumen?  Is someone suddenly imbuded with Orthodox knowledge upon Chrismation while remaining completely dumb prior to that?

[choy]

And isn't it so nice that a thread about someone's personal concerns is turned into a thread about someone else, now completely ignoring the spiritual needs of the thread starter?

[J Michael]

You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that Bread and Wine become the body and blood of Christ. You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that a man was born as the result of a virgin birth. You have to believe its weird that we believe that a man can rise from the grave.
BTW, where does Pastor aeternus teach that the pope will be struck by lightening before being allowed to preach heresy?

Nobody says that.  The Holy Spirit just robs the Pope of his free will to say something contrary to doctrine.

Really?  Where's that in either the Catechism or other Church documents? 

[J Michael]

And @choy, stop using the "we" pronoun. I have not authorized you to be my spokesman. Speak for yourself if you share your own opinions.

There is no "I" in Orthodoxy

You are not Orthodox yet. Please, calm down your hyperenthusiasm a bit. I don't want you to burn down in a couple of month as several hyperenthusiastic converts or potential converts did.

And it's awkward to see self-proclaimed "defender of Orthodoxy" who no earlier than half a year ago used to be equally passionate defender of Papacy.

Moderation. Moderation is most important.

I second this.

Choy, in a recent thread, I alluded to the proclamations and grand guidance you have given.  I hate it when catechumen is used derisively, but I have the same problem when it loses any meaning associated with someone receiving instruction.  We're all very pleased that you are becoming Orthodox and appreciate your zeal, but Michal's advice seems quite solid. Take this time to absorb the faith.  There will be plenty of time for the other stuff.  And don't take this as chastisement, just friendly advice.

Am I being prejudiced here just becaue I am merely a catechumen?  Is someone suddenly imbuded with Orthodox knowledge upon Chrismation while remaining completely dumb prior to that?

Yes.....it's magic! 

[J Michael]

And isn't it so nice that a thread about someone's personal concerns is turned into a thread about someone else, now completely ignoring the spiritual needs of the thread starter?

   Welcome to OC.net   

[Cognomen]

This is so odd, I didn't expect to basically be told to stay Catholic on an Orthodox forum.

My main issues are theological, the social type things are just the icing on the cake so to speak.

You won't hear that from me.  I do, however, think the advice to prayerfully discern your path is good though.

As far as the 'magical' qualities of infallibility, I suppose I don't take too much issue with that as a concept, having been familiar with similar ones in Shia Islam.  The primary problem I have with it is that it seemed an innovation from, conservatively, the Christianity of the first thousand years (and within the Papacy itself).  The issue of papal infallibility's development is a rabbit hole we can go down, but suffice it to say that I don't believe that it is an authentic teaching of the Church.  Now that's pretty obvious, as I'm Orthodox, but I had to ask similar questions when searching for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

[Maria]

And @choy, stop using the "we" pronoun. I have not authorized you to be my spokesman. Speak for yourself if you share your own opinions.

There is no "I" in Orthodoxy

You are not Orthodox yet. Please, calm down your hyperenthusiasm a bit. I don't want you to burn down in a couple of month as several hyperenthusiastic converts or potential converts did.

And it's awkward to see self-proclaimed "defender of Orthodoxy" who no earlier than half a year ago used to be equally passionate defender of Papacy.

Moderation. Moderation is most important.

I second this.

Choy, in a recent thread, I alluded to the proclamations and grand guidance you have given.  I hate it when catechumen is used derisively, but I have the same problem when it loses any meaning associated with someone receiving instruction.  We're all very pleased that you are becoming Orthodox and appreciate your zeal, but Michal's advice seems quite solid. Take this time to absorb the faith.  There will be plenty of time for the other stuff.  And don't take this as chastisement, just friendly advice.

I third this. As an Orthodox Christian, I try to give credit where credit is due. If my priest has said something in a sermon, I will mention that. If I have read something from a book or the Bible, then I will reference that book and include a quote if possible. Often, I will do a search by inserting a line in the google window to find out where I got that quote. When I use "we" and "us," I am usually referring to my own family.

[Maria]

This is so odd, I didn't expect to basically be told to stay Catholic on an Orthodox forum.

My main issues are theological, the social type things are just the icing on the cake so to speak.

You won't hear that from me.  I do, however, think the advice to prayerfully discern your path is good though.

As far as the 'magical' qualities of infallibility, I suppose I don't take too much issue with that as a concept, having been familiar with similar ones in Shia Islam.  The primary problem I have with it is that it seemed an innovation from, conservatively, the Christianity of the first thousand years (and within the Papacy itself).  The issue of papal infallibility's development is a rabbit hole we can go down, but suffice it to say that I don't believe that it is an authentic teaching of the Church.  Now that's pretty obvious, as I'm Orthodox, but I had to ask similar questions when searching for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Neither will I tell you to remain Catholic.

Frankly, I think that the Orthodox priests who have contacted a Catholic priest whenever an inquirer seeks instruction have crossed the line, even if their own bishop has instructed them to do so.

Those betrayed Catholics told me that they felt deceived and would never trust an Orthodox priest again. They were forced into letting the Orthodox priest call their Catholic priest when the priest told them, "I am going to call your priest. Do I have your permission?" They felt that they could not say, "No." They felt so betrayed by a Priest whom they trusted as they believed that the Priest was an 'Alter Christus," thus their very faith was shaken to the core.

One of those Orthodox Priests even told a Hindi to remain a Hindi.   And that was not part of the Balamand Agreement. Where he got his ecumenist ideas, I have no clue. However, there is a movement even in Catholicism, where a Jewish inquirer is told to remain a Jew and become an even better Jew.

Well, the only way that a Jewish person can become a fulfilled Jew is to embrace the Messiah Christ by accepting Baptism in the Holy Orthodox Church.

[J Michael]

This is so odd, I didn't expect to basically be told to stay Catholic on an Orthodox forum.

My main issues are theological, the social type things are just the icing on the cake so to speak.

You won't hear that from me.  I do, however, think the advice to prayerfully discern your path is good though.

As far as the 'magical' qualities of infallibility, I suppose I don't take too much issue with that as a concept, having been familiar with similar ones in Shia Islam.  The primary problem I have with it is that it seemed an innovation from, conservatively, the Christianity of the first thousand years (and within the Papacy itself).  The issue of papal infallibility's development is a rabbit hole we can go down, but suffice it to say that I don't believe that it is an authentic teaching of the Church.  Now that's pretty obvious, as I'm Orthodox, but I had to ask similar questions when searching for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Neither will I tell you to remain Catholic.

Frankly, I think that the Orthodox priests who have contacted a Catholic priest whenever an inquirer seeks instruction have crossed the line, even if their own bishop has instructed them to do so.

Those betrayed Catholics told me that they felt deceived and would never trust an Orthodox priest again. They were forced into letting the Orthodox priest call their Catholic priest when the priest told them, "I am going to call your priest. Do I have your permission?" They felt that they could not say, "No." They felt so betrayed by a Priest whom they trusted as they believed that the Priest was an 'Alter Christus," thus their very faith was shaken to the core.

One of those Orthodox Priests even told a Hindi to remain a Hindi.   And that was not part of the Balamand Agreement. Where he got his ecumenist ideas, I have no clue. However, there is a movement even in Catholicism, where a Jewish inquirer is told to remain a Jew and become an even better Jew.

Well, the only way that a Jewish person can become a fulfilled Jew is to embrace Christ by accepting Baptism in the Holy Orthodox Church.

Or by embracing Christ by accepting Baptism in the  (non-Orthodox) Holy Catholic Church.

[sheenj]

This is so odd, I didn't expect to basically be told to stay Catholic on an Orthodox forum.

My main issues are theological, the social type things are just the icing on the cake so to speak.

You won't hear that from me.  I do, however, think the advice to prayerfully discern your path is good though.

As far as the 'magical' qualities of infallibility, I suppose I don't take too much issue with that as a concept, having been familiar with similar ones in Shia Islam.  The primary problem I have with it is that it seemed an innovation from, conservatively, the Christianity of the first thousand years (and within the Papacy itself).  The issue of papal infallibility's development is a rabbit hole we can go down, but suffice it to say that I don't believe that it is an authentic teaching of the Church.  Now that's pretty obvious, as I'm Orthodox, but I had to ask similar questions when searching for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Neither will I tell you to remain Catholic.

Frankly, I think that the Orthodox priests who have contacted a Catholic priest whenever an inquirer seeks instruction have crossed the line, even if their own bishop has instructed them to do so.

Those betrayed Catholics told me that they felt deceived and would never trust an Orthodox priest again. They were forced into letting the Orthodox priest call their Catholic priest when the priest told them, "I am going to call your priest. Do I have your permission?" They felt that they could not say, "No." They felt so betrayed by a Priest whom they trusted as they believed that the Priest was an 'Alter Christus," thus their very faith was shaken to the core.

One of those Orthodox Priests even told a Hindi to remain a Hindi.  And that was not part of the Balamand Agreement. Where he got his ecumenist ideas, I have no clue. However, there is a movement even in Catholicism, where a Jewish inquirer is told to remain a Jew and become an even better Jew.

Well, the only way that a Jewish person can become a fulfilled Jew is to embrace Christ by accepting Baptism in the Holy Orthodox Church.

Or by embracing Christ by accepting Baptism in the  (non-Orthodox) Holy Catholic Church.

You don't consider yourself Orthodox?

[J Michael]

This is so odd, I didn't expect to basically be told to stay Catholic on an Orthodox forum.

My main issues are theological, the social type things are just the icing on the cake so to speak.

You won't hear that from me.  I do, however, think the advice to prayerfully discern your path is good though.

As far as the 'magical' qualities of infallibility, I suppose I don't take too much issue with that as a concept, having been familiar with similar ones in Shia Islam.  The primary problem I have with it is that it seemed an innovation from, conservatively, the Christianity of the first thousand years (and within the Papacy itself).  The issue of papal infallibility's development is a rabbit hole we can go down, but suffice it to say that I don't believe that it is an authentic teaching of the Church.  Now that's pretty obvious, as I'm Orthodox, but I had to ask similar questions when searching for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Neither will I tell you to remain Catholic.

Frankly, I think that the Orthodox priests who have contacted a Catholic priest whenever an inquirer seeks instruction have crossed the line, even if their own bishop has instructed them to do so.

Those betrayed Catholics told me that they felt deceived and would never trust an Orthodox priest again. They were forced into letting the Orthodox priest call their Catholic priest when the priest told them, "I am going to call your priest. Do I have your permission?" They felt that they could not say, "No." They felt so betrayed by a Priest whom they trusted as they believed that the Priest was an 'Alter Christus," thus their very faith was shaken to the core.

One of those Orthodox Priests even told a Hindi to remain a Hindi.   And that was not part of the Balamand Agreement. Where he got his ecumenist ideas, I have no clue. However, there is a movement even in Catholicism, where a Jewish inquirer is told to remain a Jew and become an even better Jew.

Well, the only way that a Jewish person can become a fulfilled Jew is to embrace Christ by accepting Baptism in the Holy Orthodox Church.

Or by embracing Christ by accepting Baptism in the  (non-Orthodox) Holy Catholic Church.

You don't consider yourself Orthodox?

I am an orthodox Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Christian.  Changing the lower-case "o" to an upper-case "O" is problematic for many.

[mike]

Am I being prejudiced here just becaue I am merely a catechumen?

By being a catechuman with a few-month-experience in Orthodoxy teaching inquirers with equal "experience" about faith? Mt. 15:14. Spend more time studying than proclaiming what "we" do.

Is someone suddenly imbuded with Orthodox knowledge upon Chrismation while remaining completely dumb prior to that?

No. Neither is the person who once wakes up and decides he does not believe in the pope anymore and makes a 180^o turn. We need time to learn something. Less pomposity.

One of those Orthodox Priests even told a Hindi to remain a Hindi.   And that was not part of the Balamand Agreement. Where he got his ecumenist ideas, I have no clue. However, there is a movement even in Catholicism, where a Jewish inquirer is told to remain a Jew and become an even better Jew.

Since the Balamand Agreement was not accepted bu the Orthodox Church could you stop your "true traditional in exile" ranting or at least move it to another one thread?

[Papist]

I find it funny that whenever some one wants to dismiss a position with which he or she does not agree, this person will simply call it "magical." And the debate is over. Rock crushes scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, calling something "magic" nukes them all.

Meh, you have to admit that the theory that a Pope will get struck by a lightning bolt before preaching heresy is weird.

You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that Bread and Wine become the body and blood of Christ. You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that a man was born as the result of a virgin birth. You have to believe its weird that we believe that a man can rise from the grave.

I can see your point  

BTW, where does Pastor aeternus teach that the pope will be struck by lightening before being allowed to preach heresy?

Nowhere, I think. It's just a curious RC theologoumenon that's floating around the internet. But can a Pope teach heresy ex cathedra? And if he wants to do that will he be able to do that? This is no polemic, just a question.

quoting tags editted - MK

I don't know what the mechanism is that God uses to keep the Pope from teaching heresy ex cathedra, just I don't what the mechanism is that God used to inspire the authors of the Holy Scriptures to write those scriptures, just as I don't know what the mechanism is that God uses to change bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. All I know is that in each case, it is the action of the Holy Spirit that brings about the result.

[Papist]

You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that Bread and Wine become the body and blood of Christ. You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that a man was born as the result of a virgin birth. You have to believe its weird that we believe that a man can rise from the grave.
BTW, where does Pastor aeternus teach that the pope will be struck by lightening before being allowed to preach heresy?

Nobody says that.  The Holy Spirit just robs the Pope of his free will to say something contrary to doctrine.

Did the Holy Spirit rob people of their free will he inspired to authors of the Scriptures to write the sacred text? Perhaps you are thinking of the influence of God's Holy Spirit in a natural, rather than transcedent manner.

[Maria]

Am I being prejudiced here just becaue I am merely a catechumen?

By being a catechuman with a few-month-experience in Orthodoxy teaching inquirers with equal "experience" about faith? Mt. 15:14. Spend more time studying than proclaiming what "we" do.

Is someone suddenly imbuded with Orthodox knowledge upon Chrismation while remaining completely dumb prior to that?

No. Neither is the person who once wakes up and decides he does not believe in the pope anymore and makes a 180^o turn. We need time to learn something. Less pomposity.

One of those Orthodox Priests even told a Hindi to remain a Hindi.   And that was not part of the Balamand Agreement. Where he got his ecumenist ideas, I have no clue. However, there is a movement even in Catholicism, where a Jewish inquirer is told to remain a Jew and become an even better Jew.

Since the Balamand Agreement was not accepted bu the Orthodox Church could you stop your "true traditional in exile" ranting or at least move it to another one thread?

How so? I was told by Greek and Antiochian Priests that they were told by their bishops to follow that agreement, that it was binding.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

...
If you believe Catholic doctrine and dogma (including those regarding the papacy), that's great and you can happily remain Catholic.  If you do not, you should not remain Catholic.  Pretty simple when all is said and done. 

J Michael--Thank you for your wisdom and common-sense advice. May the Lord bless you and Melisine's spiritual quest.

[JamesRottnek]

Am I being prejudiced here just becaue I am merely a catechumen?

By being a catechuman with a few-month-experience in Orthodoxy teaching inquirers with equal "experience" about faith? Mt. 15:14. Spend more time studying than proclaiming what "we" do.

Is someone suddenly imbuded with Orthodox knowledge upon Chrismation while remaining completely dumb prior to that?

No. Neither is the person who once wakes up and decides he does not believe in the pope anymore and makes a 180^o turn. We need time to learn something. Less pomposity.

One of those Orthodox Priests even told a Hindi to remain a Hindi.   And that was not part of the Balamand Agreement. Where he got his ecumenist ideas, I have no clue. However, there is a movement even in Catholicism, where a Jewish inquirer is told to remain a Jew and become an even better Jew.

Since the Balamand Agreement was not accepted bu the Orthodox Church could you stop your "true traditional in exile" ranting or at least move it to another one thread?

How so? I was told by Greek and Antiochian Priests that they were told by their bishops to follow that agreement, that it was binding.

"I was told by people....who were told by people," my goodness!  You've proven it!  You have cast out all doubts about your claim!

[mike]

How so? I was told by Greek and Antiochian Priests that they were told by their bishops to follow that agreement, that it was binding.

Not sure if they were wrong or it's just you plotting.

Orthodox Christianity has not reached a consensus on the Balamand statement, in part because not all of the world’s Orthodox Churches participated in the gathering, and in part because controversy has risen over the “sister church” or “two lung” theory.

In any case, the Orthodox side insisted that, since there was no consensus regarding Balamand, the same topic would have to be treated in more depth before the commission could return to its theological agenda.

The leadership of the MP also convinced the people and clergy that the Balamand and Chambesy documents were not approved by the church leadership and so there is no need for alarm, although we note that these documents were also not rejected or even evaluated properly.

[Putnik Namernik]

I find it funny that whenever some one wants to dismiss a position with which he or she does not agree, this person will simply call it "magical." And the debate is over. Rock crushes scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, calling something "magic" nukes them all.

I can't think of any other way to describe it but magical. All of of a sudden you get a special super power, because you have been elected pope. No matter what you have ever believed or taught before.  

Don't Orthodox men get special "superpowers" too when they become ordained?  Don't Orthodox priests get some kind of special superpower when ordained to the episcopate?  I mean, just a few words and a laying on of hands endows them with the ability to pass on Apostolic succession, ordain priests, etc., etc.   How is that essentially different?  Is it "magical thinking" or "magic" that make the bread and wine become His Body and His Blood?  After all, they still look like and taste like bread and wine....

If you believe, then it's not "magical thinking".  If you do not believe, it's anything that you want to call it.  Or....maybe all belief and faith is magical thinking....especially if you do not believe or have faith.

But, the issue of the papacy has been hashed, rehashed, super rehashed, over hashed, and hashed until death on this board...If you believe Catholic doctrine and dogma (including those regarding the papacy), that's great and you can happily remain Catholic.  If you do not, you should not remain Catholic.  Pretty simple when all is said and done. 

They do, but that does not make then infallable...they still sin and make mistakes...

[Maria]

How so? I was told by Greek and Antiochian Priests that they were told by their bishops to follow that agreement, that it was binding.

Not sure if they were wrong or it's just you plotting.

Orthodox Christianity has not reached a consensus on the Balamand statement, in part because not all of the world’s Orthodox Churches participated in the gathering, and in part because controversy has risen over the “sister church” or “two lung” theory.

In any case, the Orthodox side insisted that, since there was no consensus regarding Balamand, the same topic would have to be treated in more depth before the commission could return to its theological agenda.

The leadership of the MP also convinced the people and clergy that the Balamand and Chambesy documents were not approved by the church leadership and so there is no need for alarm, although we note that these documents were also not rejected or even evaluated properly.

Neither am I wrong in this instance, nor am I plotting.
Just telling the truth, nothing more.

Yes, please read your "infallible" quotes, Michal. Only a few jurisdictions agreed to this agreement: Greece, Antiochians, and a few others. Russia and the OCA did not. So of course, the Slavic Orthodox will say that there was no consensus among all the Orthodox.

However, the Greek and the Antiochian priests and bishops with whom I have consulted all agreed that this Balamand Agreement was binding, and that is why they hesitated to receive Catholics, but would receive Protestants without hesitation. Weird, isn't it?

Nevertheless, the Catholic Church in Los Angeles has graciously received (by confession of faith or by Confirmation) a lot of Greek Orthodox who want their children to have a parochial school education and a discount too. So, it seems awfully one-sided. Not only that, it is sheep-stealing by offering discounts.

[Putnik Namernik]

And @choy, stop using the "we" pronoun. I have not authorized you to be my spokesman. Speak for yourself if you share your own opinions.

There is no "I" in Orthodoxy

You are not Orthodox yet. Please, calm down your hyperenthusiasm a bit. I don't want you to burn down in a couple of month as several hyperenthusiastic converts or potential converts did.

And it's awkward to see self-proclaimed "defender of Orthodoxy" who no earlier than half a year ago used to be equally passionate defender of Papacy.

Moderation. Moderation is most important.

I second this.

Choy, in a recent thread, I alluded to the proclamations and grand guidance you have given.  I hate it when catechumen is used derisively, but I have the same problem when it loses any meaning associated with someone receiving instruction.  We're all very pleased that you are becoming Orthodox and appreciate your zeal, but Michal's advice seems quite solid. Take this time to absorb the faith.  There will be plenty of time for the other stuff.  And don't take this as chastisement, just friendly advice.

Am I being prejudiced here just becaue I am merely a catechumen?  Is someone suddenly imbuded with Orthodox knowledge upon Chrismation while remaining completely dumb prior to that?

Don't despair...some might say it with good intentions others not so.  Take it as just one of many temptations-missunderstandings that an individual comes accross in his-her life. Glory to God!

[Maria]

Am I being prejudiced here just becaue I am merely a catechumen?

By being a catechuman with a few-month-experience in Orthodoxy teaching inquirers with equal "experience" about faith? Mt. 15:14. Spend more time studying than proclaiming what "we" do.

Is someone suddenly imbuded with Orthodox knowledge upon Chrismation while remaining completely dumb prior to that?

No. Neither is the person who once wakes up and decides he does not believe in the pope anymore and makes a 180^o turn. We need time to learn something. Less pomposity.

One of those Orthodox Priests even told a Hindi to remain a Hindi.   And that was not part of the Balamand Agreement. Where he got his ecumenist ideas, I have no clue. However, there is a movement even in Catholicism, where a Jewish inquirer is told to remain a Jew and become an even better Jew.

Since the Balamand Agreement was not accepted bu the Orthodox Church could you stop your "true traditional in exile" ranting or at least move it to another one thread?

How so? I was told by Greek and Antiochian Priests that they were told by their bishops to follow that agreement, that it was binding.

"I was told by people....who were told by people," my goodness!  You've proven it!  You have cast out all doubts about your claim!

I suppose that if your priest told you to fast, and said that his bishop enforced the fast, then you would question the priest's sanity.

Typical response of a teenager.

[Peter J]

You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that Bread and Wine become the body and blood of Christ. You have to admit that it's weird that we believe that a man was born as the result of a virgin birth. You have to believe its weird that we believe that a man can rise from the grave.
BTW, where does Pastor aeternus teach that the pope will be struck by lightening before being allowed to preach heresy?

Nobody says that.  The Holy Spirit just robs the Pope of his free will to say something contrary to doctrine.

Well that's weird.  That would be like if St. Peter, or St. Paul, or St. James or somebody, wrote an infallible book of the bible!

[Peter J]

Well, you have the Catholics here telling you to go Orthodox

Catholics? I only remember one Catholic poster saying anything like that, and I just got through reading this thread from beginning to end. (Note: I'm not recommending reading it in one sitting like that.)

...
If you believe Catholic doctrine and dogma (including those regarding the papacy), that's great and you can happily remain Catholic.  If you do not, you should not remain Catholic.  Pretty simple when all is said and done. 

J Michael--Thank you for your wisdom and common-sense advice. May the Lord bless you and Melisine's spiritual quest.

Well there's a nice unbiased compliment.

(Sorry if that sounded sarcastic. )

[Shiny]

Good to see you inquiring in the Orthodox faith Peter J, hope all is well.

[orthonorm]

Moderation. Moderation is most important.

So says a moderator . . .

[Peter J]

I find it funny that whenever some one wants to dismiss a position with which he or she does not agree, this person will simply call it "magical." And the debate is over. Rock crushes scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, calling something "magic" nukes them all.

You're thinking of "Gargamel takes all".

[Peter J]

Why anyone would join a Church of which he's not sure that it is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church from the creed is beyond me.

Um ... O-kay.

 

[sedevacantist]

This is so odd, I didn't expect to basically be told to stay Catholic on an Orthodox forum.

My main issues are theological, the social type things are just the icing on the cake so to speak.

Sorry to have to tell you, and I know this may sound shocking, but the fact is  you are actually not Catholic, you have joined the abominable vatican 2 sect, the true Church of Christ has not had a real pope since 1958, please inform yourself here and save your soul. start with the section on the invalid mass.
 http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/

[orthonorm]

This is so odd, I didn't expect to basically be told to stay Catholic on an Orthodox forum.

My main issues are theological, the social type things are just the icing on the cake so to speak.

Sorry to have to tell you . . . .

This is one of the many stock opening phrases I love.

[Asteriktos]

ATTN: Moderators

Please modify the title of this thread to:

"the magical thinking of infallibility never made any sense"

Thank you for your time.

[Melesine]

This is so odd, I didn't expect to basically be told to stay Catholic on an Orthodox forum.

My main issues are theological, the social type things are just the icing on the cake so to speak.

Sorry to have to tell you, and I know this may sound shocking, but the fact is  you are actually not Catholic, you have joined the abominable vatican 2 sect, the true Church of Christ has not had a real pope since 1958, please inform yourself here and save your soul. start with the section on the invalid mass.
 http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/

LOLOLOL ok so the Sedes want me at least HAHAHA