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Author Topic: the magical thinking of papal infallibility no longer makes any sense to me  (Read 9888 times) Average Rating: 0
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Melesine
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« on: March 22, 2013, 10:43:56 AM »

I've been torn between the CC and OC for quite awhile now. I'm a convert to the CC, but I felt a strong pull to the OC even before becoming Catholic. Since then, I've struggled to make sense of it all.

I do not understand the Catholic veneration of the papal office. I hear lots of comments about how regardless of what he may have said or done or taught as Bishop that he is Pope now and they support him no matter what, because he is reserved from teaching false doctrine or he will no longer be Pope. People actually believe that God will strike him down before he would have the opportunity to promulgate something false.  Huh

I'm now starting to see the problem with declaring something ( a council) or someone ( the Pope) infallible at the outset instead of after the fact when the orthodoxy of what is declared can be confirmed or rejected.

Universal jurisdiction seems to be naturally tied to papal infallibility and creates the situation where submission to Rome is more important than orthodox belief. Hence we have a bunch of people that are considered Catholic but don't agree with Catholic teaching on many issues. it's no longer about orthodox belief it's all about being in communion with the Pope. Because once a Catholic always a Catholic.

None of this makes any sense to me and now I realize I never should have become Catholic in the first place.
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2013, 10:46:13 AM »

How long have you been Catholic?
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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2013, 10:50:09 AM »

Two years.
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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2013, 11:03:42 AM »

Two years.
Ah.

And what was it that so captured you on Catholicism in the first place that you followed it despite feeling — in your words — a strong pull to Orthodoxy?

I am asking to help flesh out some of this a little. Several times a year we see people come on this board saying, “I converted to Catholicism relatively recently, now I want to convert to Orthodoxy because of (x) issue;” some follow through with becoming Orthodox, some stay Catholic and some become something entirely else.

I am not trying to discourage you from Orthodoxy — far from it. But I think it helps a person orient themselves (and those with whom they are speaking) if they review their initial decisions, hindsight being what it is.
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2013, 11:45:45 AM »

It's a long story that has been going on for over 5 years and I've been back and forth between the two the whole time. I actually left RCIA in middle and started attending the Orthodox church. But we went back and I basically gave in and got baptized Catholic because my husband was more comfortable at the Catholic church, we were already in RCIA with a firm plan for baptism. The thought of remaining unbaptized any longer made me extremely uncomfortable, and I was driving my husband so crazy with the back and forth that he was about to give up on Christianity completely.

The day we got baptized I felt I should have become Orthodox instead. I continued to read Orthodox theological books and about 6 months after baptism we started attending liturgy at one of the local Orthodox churches and I've since shared a lot of theological reading I've done with my husband and he is on board with becoming Orthodox.  But I've still been back and forth mentally and we spent a decent amount of time not going to church at all because I've felt stuck in inertia and frustrated over what to do. Plus he has had some very serious medical problems over the last 2 years so we have been dealing with that.

I think I'm overwhelmed at how personal the Orthodox faith is compared to Catholicism. I can more easily blend in and be anonymous at the Catholic church and I have social anxiety sometimes. Although I really like the parish community at the Orthodox church we have gone to here, I often am not sure what is expected of me or how I'm supposed to act. I think that is my biggest obstacle.

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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2013, 11:52:44 AM »

Not that I think it is a great final destination (at least for me), but have you considered Eastern Catholicism?  I know several people who have found a home there until they were able to sort out their beliefs between RC and EO. 
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2013, 12:21:46 PM »

It's a long story that has been going on for over 5 years and I've been back and forth between the two the whole time. I actually left RCIA in middle and started attending the Orthodox church. But we went back and I basically gave in and got baptized Catholic because my husband was more comfortable at the Catholic church, we were already in RCIA with a firm plan for baptism. The thought of remaining unbaptized any longer made me extremely uncomfortable, and I was driving my husband so crazy with the back and forth that he was about to give up on Christianity completely.

The day we got baptized I felt I should have become Orthodox instead. I continued to read Orthodox theological books and about 6 months after baptism we started attending liturgy at one of the local Orthodox churches and I've since shared a lot of theological reading I've done with my husband and he is on board with becoming Orthodox.  But I've still been back and forth mentally and we spent a decent amount of time not going to church at all because I've felt stuck in inertia and frustrated over what to do. Plus he has had some very serious medical problems over the last 2 years so we have been dealing with that.

I think I'm overwhelmed at how personal the Orthodox faith is compared to Catholicism. I can more easily blend in and be anonymous at the Catholic church and I have social anxiety sometimes. Although I really like the parish community at the Orthodox church we have gone to here, I often am not sure what is expected of me or how I'm supposed to act. I think that is my biggest obstacle.



Welcome to the forum and the fray!  Grin


Sounds like maybe you weren't really "ready" to be baptized.  Just a thought.  Did you ever discuss your misgivings/doubts with your priest prior to the baptism?  Or since??

Orthodoxy (and Eastern Catholicism) can seem more personal than Roman Catholicism, especially in the U.S., because for the greatest part, the parishes are so much smaller and more intimate than so many RC parishes.  However, even in a large RC parish it is quite possible to feel warmth and welcoming and a personal touch.  And even in a small OC parish, you can be made to feel unwelcome, useless, and rejected.  Much of how you are received and perceived in any parish is up to you.  Just my opinion.
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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2013, 12:24:35 PM »

Why anyone would join a Church of which he's not sure that it is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church from the creed is beyond me.
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2013, 12:27:49 PM »

Why anyone would join a Church of which he's not sure that it is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church from the creed is beyond me.

Try not to be too harsh.  Understanding the human mind and heart is often a difficult and futile undertaking.  There is much that is beyond most of us.
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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2013, 12:33:27 PM »

To the OP: I hope you are able to find a place that brings you peace.
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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2013, 12:59:10 PM »

I often am not sure what is expected of me or how I'm supposed to act. I think that is my biggest obstacle.

You're expected to love God.  That is all.
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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2013, 01:11:07 PM »

Not that I think it is a great final destination (at least for me), but have you considered Eastern Catholicism?  I know several people who have found a home there until they were able to sort out their beliefs between RC and EO. 

If my main issue was just a preference for the divine liturgy and eastern spirituality I guess I could see it as option but my issues are mainly theological, and I don't see how being EC fixes my issues with the papacy.
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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2013, 01:13:38 PM »

I will pray for you. May God give you the light you need, so that you may see clearly what His will is for you.
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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2013, 01:17:19 PM »


Welcome to the forum and the fray!  Grin


Sounds like maybe you weren't really "ready" to be baptized.  Just a thought.  Did you ever discuss your misgivings/doubts with your priest prior to the baptism?  Or since??

Orthodoxy (and Eastern Catholicism) can seem more personal than Roman Catholicism, especially in the U.S., because for the greatest part, the parishes are so much smaller and more intimate than so many RC parishes.  However, even in a large RC parish it is quite possible to feel warmth and welcoming and a personal touch.  And even in a small OC parish, you can be made to feel unwelcome, useless, and rejected.  Much of how you are received and perceived in any parish is up to you.  Just my opinion.

I'm not really talking coffee hour, I'm referring to the anonymous confessions and anyone can get in line to receive eucharist.
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2013, 01:23:54 PM »

My advice here is to be honest to yourself.  If you feel that the truth is not in Catholicism, then leave.  But don't rush, take your time, pray, discern carefully.  I took about 9 months before I became a catechumen.  Some people take longer.  Read, ask questions, speak to a priest.
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2013, 01:25:44 PM »

I'm not really talking coffee hour, I'm referring to the anonymous confessions and anyone can get in line to receive eucharist.

There are plenty of Orthodox parishes where that happens too.

Don't change religion because of social issues.
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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2013, 01:28:48 PM »

I'm not really talking coffee hour, I'm referring to the anonymous confessions and anyone can get in line to receive eucharist.

Is this in reference to your own experience, or with others?
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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2013, 01:29:21 PM »

Why anyone would join a Church of which he's not sure that it is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church from the creed is beyond me.

If I waited until I was sure beyond any doubt, I'd probably never do anything. As someone coming from a non Christian background it's taken a lot of time just to learn the terminology. The things that separate the Catholics and Orthodox are not simple and easy to understand for me. Both sides make what seem to be convincing arguments for their positions and I've simply thrown up my hands on many occasions and figured I'm just not qualified to decide. At the same time the need to be part of Gods church is overwhelming and something I can't ignore.

If only I was able to see it all so clearly and simply as you must.
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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2013, 01:32:47 PM »


Welcome to the forum and the fray!  Grin


Sounds like maybe you weren't really "ready" to be baptized.  Just a thought.  Did you ever discuss your misgivings/doubts with your priest prior to the baptism?  Or since??

Orthodoxy (and Eastern Catholicism) can seem more personal than Roman Catholicism, especially in the U.S., because for the greatest part, the parishes are so much smaller and more intimate than so many RC parishes.  However, even in a large RC parish it is quite possible to feel warmth and welcoming and a personal touch.  And even in a small OC parish, you can be made to feel unwelcome, useless, and rejected.  Much of how you are received and perceived in any parish is up to you.  Just my opinion.

I'm not really talking coffee hour, I'm referring to the anonymous confessions and anyone can get in line to receive eucharist.

Please explain what you mean by "anonymous confessions".  I think I may know, but I don't want to second-guess you.

I do know what you mean about approaching the Chalice and receiving.  I would be the last one to deny that there are issues there that really do need to be addressed by the Catholic Church.  On the other hand, it is not *my* place to judge who may or may not approach.  If I personally know someone who is not Catholic and they express a desire to receive communion, or get in line to do so, I will gently tell them that Communion is reserved for those Catholics who are "in a state of Grace".  Judgment on those who do so anyway, or on those who I don't know whether they are Catholic or not, is not mine to give.
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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2013, 01:33:50 PM »

This is so odd, I didn't expect to basically be told to stay Catholic on an Orthodox forum.

My main issues are theological, the social type things are just the icing on the cake so to speak.
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2013, 01:36:00 PM »

This is so odd, I didn't expect to basically be told to stay Catholic on an Orthodox forum.

Welcome to Orthodoxy Wink

We believe in preaching the Gospel, not in proselytizing people.  Only God converts.  We can tell you to convert to Orthodoxy but if you do and you have the same feeling as you do now and you leave, then it didn't serve anyone any purpose.

My own priest never prodded me to convert.  He did answer every question I have very honestly from the perspective of the Orthodox Church.  One may mistake it for proselytizing.  But he constantly reminds me that I don't have to convert if I don't want to.  But he's not going to sugar coat the answers to the questions I asked.
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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2013, 01:37:59 PM »

Not that I think it is a great final destination (at least for me), but have you considered Eastern Catholicism?  I know several people who have found a home there until they were able to sort out their beliefs between RC and EO. 

If my main issue was just a preference for the divine liturgy and eastern spirituality I guess I could see it as option but my issues are mainly theological, and I don't see how being EC fixes my issues with the papacy.

It doesn't.  If you cannot accept, no matter how hard you might try to convince yourself otherwise, the Catholic dogmas and doctrines related to the papacy, then you must become Orthodox or something else or nothing at all.  What a shame that these issues were not settled for you before your baptism, as they probably should have been  Sad!  Again, have you discussed any of this with your priest?  If not, it might be a good idea to do so.  Unless, of course, you've already made up your mind to leave the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2013, 01:42:39 PM »

Why anyone would join a Church of which he's not sure that it is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church from the creed is beyond me.

If I waited until I was sure beyond any doubt, I'd probably never do anything. As someone coming from a non Christian background it's taken a lot of time just to learn the terminology. The things that separate the Catholics and Orthodox are not simple and easy to understand for me. Both sides make what seem to be convincing arguments for their positions and I've simply thrown up my hands on many occasions and figured I'm just not qualified to decide. At the same time the need to be part of Gods church is overwhelming and something I can't ignore.

If only I was able to see it all so clearly and simply as you must.

Someone gave me an advice on this forum last year when I was contemplating conversion.  I said I felt I wanted to be Orthodox but I couldn't leave my Eastern Catholic parish.  That person told me that when the time comes I will feel like there is a fire lit underneath me and I will go and become Orthodox.  And indeed it did come.  At first we spoke to the priest and we said we want a gradual transition, especially that I was involved with a lot of stuff with my former parish.  That was November.  We agreed that we can be received after the Gregorian Easter, and probably be Chrismated by the Orthodox Pascha.  Yet one month later I just can't stand it anymore, I knew I was somewhere I didn't want to be and I want to be somewhere else.  So by Theophany I asked the priest to receive us as catechumens and the very next Sunday we were.
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« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2013, 01:43:53 PM »



It doesn't.  If you cannot accept, no matter how hard you might try to convince yourself otherwise, the Catholic dogmas and doctrines related to the papacy, then you must become Orthodox or something else or nothing at all.  What a shame that these issues were not settled for you before your baptism, as they probably should have been  Sad!  Again, have you discussed any of this with your priest?  If not, it might be a good idea to do so.  Unless, of course, you've already made up your mind to leave the Catholic Church.

I haven't. The priest that baptized me was moved out of the area and we moved to another state anyway. Since moving I haven't had contact with any Catholic priests other than in the confessional or when receiving the eucharist. I know my own fault. Last year I brought it up in confession that I'd been attending divine liturgy at the Orthodox Church and the priest said it was fine as we are all bothers and sisters in Christ.
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« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2013, 01:45:51 PM »



It doesn't.  If you cannot accept, no matter how hard you might try to convince yourself otherwise, the Catholic dogmas and doctrines related to the papacy, then you must become Orthodox or something else or nothing at all.  What a shame that these issues were not settled for you before your baptism, as they probably should have been  Sad!  Again, have you discussed any of this with your priest?  If not, it might be a good idea to do so.  Unless, of course, you've already made up your mind to leave the Catholic Church.

I haven't. The priest that baptized me was moved out of the area and we moved to another state anyway. Since moving I haven't had contact with any Catholic priests other than in the confessional or when receiving the eucharist. I know my own fault. Last year I brought it up in confession that I'd been attending divine liturgy at the Orthodox Church and the priest said it was fine as we are all bothers and sisters in Christ.

You have to follow what is in your heart.
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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2013, 01:46:24 PM »

This is so odd, I didn't expect to basically be told to stay Catholic on an Orthodox forum.

Welcome to Orthodoxy Wink

We believe in preaching the Gospel, not in proselytizing people.  Only God converts.  We can tell you to convert to Orthodoxy but if you do and you have the same feeling as you do now and you leave, then it didn't serve anyone any purpose.

My own priest never prodded me to convert.  He did answer every question I have very honestly from the perspective of the Orthodox Church.  One may mistake it for proselytizing.  But he constantly reminds me that I don't have to convert if I don't want to.  But he's not going to sugar coat the answers to the questions I asked.

It was starting to remind me of the way rabbis refuse potential converts 3 times to see if they are sincere lol.
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« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2013, 01:54:29 PM »

Why anyone would join a Church of which he's not sure that it is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church from the creed is beyond me.

If I waited until I was sure beyond any doubt, I'd probably never do anything. As someone coming from a non Christian background it's taken a lot of time just to learn the terminology. The things that separate the Catholics and Orthodox are not simple and easy to understand for me. Both sides make what seem to be convincing arguments for their positions and I've simply thrown up my hands on many occasions and figured I'm just not qualified to decide. At the same time the need to be part of Gods church is overwhelming and something I can't ignore.

If only I was able to see it all so clearly and simply as you must.

Someone gave me an advice on this forum last year when I was contemplating conversion.  I said I felt I wanted to be Orthodox but I couldn't leave my Eastern Catholic parish.  That person told me that when the time comes I will feel like there is a fire lit underneath me and I will go and become Orthodox.  And indeed it did come.  At first we spoke to the priest and we said we want a gradual transition, especially that I was involved with a lot of stuff with my former parish.  That was November.  We agreed that we can be received after the Gregorian Easter, and probably be Chrismated by the Orthodox Pascha.  Yet one month later I just can't stand it anymore, I knew I was somewhere I didn't want to be and I want to be somewhere else.  So by Theophany I asked the priest to receive us as catechumens and the very next Sunday we were.


Thanks, that was really helpful. I thought we were on our way to becoming Orthodox about a year ago. We were attending a class on Orthodoxy at the church we were attending liturgy at but the class wasn't able to continue. Then my husband had heart surgery and later a stroke, he is fine now but that was preoccupying a lot of my time last year. I should probably just make an appointment to meet with the priest.
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« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2013, 01:59:43 PM »



It doesn't.  If you cannot accept, no matter how hard you might try to convince yourself otherwise, the Catholic dogmas and doctrines related to the papacy, then you must become Orthodox or something else or nothing at all.  What a shame that these issues were not settled for you before your baptism, as they probably should have been  Sad!  Again, have you discussed any of this with your priest?  If not, it might be a good idea to do so.  Unless, of course, you've already made up your mind to leave the Catholic Church.

I haven't. The priest that baptized me was moved out of the area and we moved to another state anyway. Since moving I haven't had contact with any Catholic priests other than in the confessional or when receiving the eucharist. I know my own fault. Last year I brought it up in confession that I'd been attending divine liturgy at the Orthodox Church and the priest said it was fine as we are all bothers and sisters in Christ.

Well, it is fine to attend the Orthodox Divine Liturgy Wink!  For all intents and purposes it's the same liturgy we use in the Byzantine Catholic Church.  However.......if you have issues with Catholic dogma and doctrine and if you have not yet made up your mind to leave the Catholic Church, you really owe it to yourself, imho,  to perhaps make an appointment with your current Catholic priest to discuss all of this with a view to resolving your issues one way or another.  But, if you have already made up your mind (and it kinda sounds like you have), it's a moot point, and while you might have an interesting discussion, it could just be a waste of his and your time, and you probably ought to approach the priest at the Orthodox church you've been attending and tell him you want to enter into catechesis.  If he's smart, he'll imitate the rabbis, and refuse you 3 times as a test of your sincerity and readiness  Wink.
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« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2013, 02:06:13 PM »

It was starting to remind me of the way rabbis refuse potential converts 3 times to see if they are sincere lol.

Well, in a sense that is the case here.  We don't want someone to convert only to leave later on.
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2013, 02:07:59 PM »

Why anyone would join a Church of which he's not sure that it is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church from the creed is beyond me.

If I waited until I was sure beyond any doubt, I'd probably never do anything. As someone coming from a non Christian background it's taken a lot of time just to learn the terminology. The things that separate the Catholics and Orthodox are not simple and easy to understand for me. Both sides make what seem to be convincing arguments for their positions and I've simply thrown up my hands on many occasions and figured I'm just not qualified to decide. At the same time the need to be part of Gods church is overwhelming and something I can't ignore.

If only I was able to see it all so clearly and simply as you must.

Someone gave me an advice on this forum last year when I was contemplating conversion.  I said I felt I wanted to be Orthodox but I couldn't leave my Eastern Catholic parish.  That person told me that when the time comes I will feel like there is a fire lit underneath me and I will go and become Orthodox.  And indeed it did come.  At first we spoke to the priest and we said we want a gradual transition, especially that I was involved with a lot of stuff with my former parish.  That was November.  We agreed that we can be received after the Gregorian Easter, and probably be Chrismated by the Orthodox Pascha.  Yet one month later I just can't stand it anymore, I knew I was somewhere I didn't want to be and I want to be somewhere else.  So by Theophany I asked the priest to receive us as catechumens and the very next Sunday we were.


Thanks, that was really helpful. I thought we were on our way to becoming Orthodox about a year ago. We were attending a class on Orthodoxy at the church we were attending liturgy at but the class wasn't able to continue. Then my husband had heart surgery and later a stroke, he is fine now but that was preoccupying a lot of my time last year. I should probably just make an appointment to meet with the priest.

Do that, speak with the priest, but don't feel pressured.  If at the end you feel you don't want to become Orthodox, thank the priest, maybe buy him lunch or something, and be at peace.
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« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2013, 02:11:09 PM »

Thanks  Smiley

I do really like the priest at our Orthodox parish. I'm not sure why I've been so nervous to make an appointment with him. He is very welcoming ( as is everyone else) and I feel comfortable talking to him. I guess I haven't wanted to meet with him until I was totally sure and ready to become Orthodox.
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« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2013, 02:11:53 PM »

It was starting to remind me of the way rabbis refuse potential converts 3 times to see if they are sincere lol.

Well, in a sense that is the case here.  We don't want someone to convert only to leave later on.

I don't want that either, which is why I've been stuck in the middle all this time.
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« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2013, 02:16:26 PM »


Well, it is fine to attend the Orthodox Divine Liturgy Wink!  For all intents and purposes it's the same liturgy we use in the Byzantine Catholic Church.  However.......if you have issues with Catholic dogma and doctrine and if you have not yet made up your mind to leave the Catholic Church, you really owe it to yourself, imho,  to perhaps make an appointment with your current Catholic priest to discuss all of this with a view to resolving your issues one way or another.  But, if you have already made up your mind (and it kinda sounds like you have), it's a moot point, and while you might have an interesting discussion, it could just be a waste of his and your time, and you probably ought to approach the priest at the Orthodox church you've been attending and tell him you want to enter into catechesis.  If he's smart, he'll imitate the rabbis, and refuse you 3 times as a test of your sincerity and readiness  Wink.

Now that I think about it I did discuss it with my first priest before he was transferred. I told him I'd been reading Orthodox theological books and it was making me confused and he told me to stop doing that LOL. This was right after I was baptized. I did stop for awhile. But when we moved out of state a few months later I went to the Orthodox church instead of the Catholic one. Then I went back and forth at different times.
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« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2013, 02:18:02 PM »



It doesn't.  If you cannot accept, no matter how hard you might try to convince yourself otherwise, the Catholic dogmas and doctrines related to the papacy, then you must become Orthodox or something else or nothing at all.  What a shame that these issues were not settled for you before your baptism, as they probably should have been  Sad!  Again, have you discussed any of this with your priest?  If not, it might be a good idea to do so.  Unless, of course, you've already made up your mind to leave the Catholic Church.

I haven't. The priest that baptized me was moved out of the area and we moved to another state anyway. Since moving I haven't had contact with any Catholic priests other than in the confessional or when receiving the eucharist. I know my own fault. Last year I brought it up in confession that I'd been attending divine liturgy at the Orthodox Church and the priest said it was fine as we are all bothers and sisters in Christ.

Well, it is fine to attend the Orthodox Divine Liturgy Wink!  For all intents and purposes it's the same liturgy we use in the Byzantine Catholic Church.  However.......if you have issues with Catholic dogma and doctrine and if you have not yet made up your mind to leave the Catholic Church, you really owe it to yourself, imho,  to perhaps make an appointment with your current Catholic priest to discuss all of this with a view to resolving your issues one way or another.  But, if you have already made up your mind (and it kinda sounds like you have), it's a moot point, and while you might have an interesting discussion, it could just be a waste of his and your time, and you probably ought to approach the priest at the Orthodox church you've been attending and tell him you want to enter into catechesis.  If he's smart, he'll imitate the rabbis, and refuse you 3 times as a test of your sincerity and readiness  Wink.

I knew several Orthodox priests in the OCA, Greek, and Antiochian parishes who would contact the Catholic priest and advise them (with permission of the inquirer) that one of their parishioners was thinking of converting to Orthodoxy. Often, the Catholic went back red-faced to face their Catholic priest, and never darkened the steps of an Orthodox Church again.

Just before being received as catechumens, we wrote a letter to our Catholic pastor, who was quite upset as all at once he had lost a lot of parishioners, most of whom sang in his choir.

Prior to our chrismation into Orthodoxy, we were also encouraged to write a letter to Cardinal Mahony, but we never received any response from him.
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« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2013, 02:18:52 PM »

It was starting to remind me of the way rabbis refuse potential converts 3 times to see if they are sincere lol.

Well, in a sense that is the case here.  We don't want someone to convert only to leave later on.

I don't want that either, which is why I've been stuck in the middle all this time.

Don't rush.  If you feel you want to inquire, inquire.  If you want to stop, stop.  If you want to convert, convert.  But don't do something against what you want to do.

As with my own story, I wanted to convert as early as Spring last year.  But I had many reservations, and I would have convereted for the wrong reasons.  So I took my time and I waited.

Don't rush.
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« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2013, 02:26:30 PM »


Well, it is fine to attend the Orthodox Divine Liturgy Wink!  For all intents and purposes it's the same liturgy we use in the Byzantine Catholic Church.  However.......if you have issues with Catholic dogma and doctrine and if you have not yet made up your mind to leave the Catholic Church, you really owe it to yourself, imho,  to perhaps make an appointment with your current Catholic priest to discuss all of this with a view to resolving your issues one way or another.  But, if you have already made up your mind (and it kinda sounds like you have), it's a moot point, and while you might have an interesting discussion, it could just be a waste of his and your time, and you probably ought to approach the priest at the Orthodox church you've been attending and tell him you want to enter into catechesis.  If he's smart, he'll imitate the rabbis, and refuse you 3 times as a test of your sincerity and readiness  Wink.

Now that I think about it I did discuss it with my first priest before he was transferred. I told him I'd been reading Orthodox theological books and it was making me confused and he told me to stop doing that LOL. This was right after I was baptized. I did stop for awhile. But when we moved out of state a few months later I went to the Orthodox church instead of the Catholic one. Then I went back and forth at different times.

Well, given that it was right after your baptism in the Latin rite of the Catholic Church, and given that it was confusing you, his advice was spot on Wink.  There you were, barely an infant, so to speak, in your new faith and you were studying another one with no degree of maturity as a Catholic Christian.  But, if at your baptism you felt you shouldn't have been doing that and should have become Orthodox, and you now have theological issues with the Catholic Church, it's probably time to ask to be received into the Orthodox catechumenate.
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« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2013, 02:27:10 PM »


I knew several Orthodox priests in the OCA, Greek, and Antiochian parishes who would contact the Catholic priest and advise them (with permission of the inquirer) that one of their parishioners was thinking of converting to Orthodoxy. Often, the Catholic went back red-faced to face their Catholic priest, and never darkened the steps of an Orthodox Church again.

Just before being received as catechumens, we wrote a letter to our Catholic pastor, who was quite upset as all at once he had lost a lot of parishioners, most of whom sang in his choir.

Prior to our chrismation into Orthodoxy, we were also encouraged to write a letter to Cardinal Mahony, but we never received any response from him.


Why?
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« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2013, 02:27:57 PM »


I knew several Orthodox priests in the OCA, Greek, and Antiochian parishes who would contact the Catholic priest and advise them (with permission of the inquirer) that one of their parishioners was thinking of converting to Orthodoxy. Often, the Catholic went back red-faced to face their Catholic priest, and never darkened the steps of an Orthodox Church again.

Just before being received as catechumens, we wrote a letter to our Catholic pastor, who was quite upset as all at once he had lost a lot of parishioners, most of whom sang in his choir.

Prior to our chrismation into Orthodoxy, we were also encouraged to write a letter to Cardinal Mahony, but we never received any response from him.


Why?

Balamand Agreement.

Actually, these Orthodox Priests were discouraging us from becoming Orthodox. They wanted us to remain Roman Catholics as their hierarchs had signed that Balamand Agreement.

However, it is important to note that quite a few Orthodox Christians in our area have converted to Roman Catholicism so that they could get the parochial school discount. Many Greeks tend to have large families. I know some of these people, and they actually (surprise) like the Novus Ordo Mass.

I do not know how these Greek converts handled papal infallibility and supremacy. I couldn't return to Catholicism if you paid me a million bucks.
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« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2013, 02:29:54 PM »

Well, you have the Catholics here telling you to go Orthodox and the Orthodox telling you to stay Catholics.  It's a wacky world, isn't it?  laugh

In all seriousness, I am a catechumen in Orthodoxy right now.  It has been about 5 years since I started my journey and I haven't gotten there yet.  It can be frustrating, but patience in allowing God to direct you will yield great rewards.  I would not jump ship until you are absolutely convinced is it what you should do.  That might be a long wait, but it will come.
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« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2013, 02:30:49 PM »


I knew several Orthodox priests in the OCA, Greek, and Antiochian parishes who would contact the Catholic priest and advise them (with permission of the inquirer) that one of their parishioners was thinking of converting to Orthodoxy. Often, the Catholic went back red-faced to face their Catholic priest, and never darkened the steps of an Orthodox Church again.

Just before being received as catechumens, we wrote a letter to our Catholic pastor, who was quite upset as all at once he had lost a lot of parishioners, most of whom sang in his choir.

Prior to our chrismation into Orthodoxy, we were also encouraged to write a letter to Cardinal Mahony, but we never received any response from him.


Why?

Balamand Agreement.

That's seriously disturbing.
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« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2013, 02:31:21 PM »



It doesn't.  If you cannot accept, no matter how hard you might try to convince yourself otherwise, the Catholic dogmas and doctrines related to the papacy, then you must become Orthodox or something else or nothing at all.  What a shame that these issues were not settled for you before your baptism, as they probably should have been  Sad!  Again, have you discussed any of this with your priest?  If not, it might be a good idea to do so.  Unless, of course, you've already made up your mind to leave the Catholic Church.

I haven't. The priest that baptized me was moved out of the area and we moved to another state anyway. Since moving I haven't had contact with any Catholic priests other than in the confessional or when receiving the eucharist. I know my own fault. Last year I brought it up in confession that I'd been attending divine liturgy at the Orthodox Church and the priest said it was fine as we are all bothers and sisters in Christ.

Well, it is fine to attend the Orthodox Divine Liturgy Wink!  For all intents and purposes it's the same liturgy we use in the Byzantine Catholic Church.  However.......if you have issues with Catholic dogma and doctrine and if you have not yet made up your mind to leave the Catholic Church, you really owe it to yourself, imho,  to perhaps make an appointment with your current Catholic priest to discuss all of this with a view to resolving your issues one way or another.  But, if you have already made up your mind (and it kinda sounds like you have), it's a moot point, and while you might have an interesting discussion, it could just be a waste of his and your time, and you probably ought to approach the priest at the Orthodox church you've been attending and tell him you want to enter into catechesis.  If he's smart, he'll imitate the rabbis, and refuse you 3 times as a test of your sincerity and readiness  Wink.

I knew several Orthodox priests in the OCA, Greek, and Antiochian parishes who would contact the Catholic priest and advise them (with permission of the inquirer) that one of their parishioners was thinking of converting to Orthodoxy. Often, the Catholic went back red-faced to face their Catholic priest, and never darkened the steps of an Orthodox Church again.

Just before being received as catechumens, we wrote a letter to our Catholic pastor, who was quite upset as all at once he had lost a lot of parishioners, most of whom sang in his choir.

Prior to our chrismation into Orthodoxy, we were also encouraged to write a letter to Cardinal Mahony, but we never received any response from him.


Interesting!  I wonder how many other Orthodox priests do that?  The ones I've known did not, to the best of my knowledge.

Kudos to you for writing the letters to your Catholic pastor, and to Cardinal Mahony!  I'm not surprised he didn't respond, though.
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« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2013, 02:34:09 PM »

Well, you have the Catholics here telling you to go Orthodox and the Orthodox telling you to stay Catholics.  It's a wacky world, isn't it?  laugh

  It can be frustrating, but patience in allowing God to direct you will yield great rewards.  I would not jump ship until you are absolutely convinced is it what you should do.  That might be a long wait, but it will come.
^This!  Wink
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« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2013, 02:37:11 PM »

Balamand Agreement.

Actually, these Orthodox Priests were discouraging us from becoming Orthodox. They wanted us to remain Roman Catholics as their hierarchs had signed that Balamand Agreement.

This document has not been signed.

And @choy, stop using the "we" pronoun. I have not authorized you to be my spokesman. Speak for yourself if you share your own opinions.
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« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2013, 02:37:40 PM »

I find it funny that whenever some one wants to dismiss a position with which he or she does not agree, this person will simply call it "magical." And the debate is over. Rock crushes scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, calling something "magic" nukes them all.
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« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2013, 02:39:28 PM »

I find it funny that whenever some one wants to dismiss a position with which he or she does not agree, this person will simply call it "magical." And the debate is over. Rock crushes scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, calling something "magic" nukes them all.

Meh, you have to admit that the theory that a Pope will get struck by a lightning bolt before preaching heresy is weird.
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