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Author Topic: the magical thinking of papal infallibility no longer makes any sense to me  (Read 8010 times) Average Rating: 0
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choy
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« Reply #270 on: March 26, 2013, 03:10:20 PM »

And some are wondering why folks don't want to you speaking for anyone else.

You don't seem to have a problem with it.
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« Reply #271 on: March 26, 2013, 03:15:42 PM »

And some are wondering why folks don't want to you speaking for anyone else.

You don't seem to have a problem with it.

With you speaking for others? Not really, as you likely represent many ill informed people out there. I just wish you more interesting when you did it.
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choy
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« Reply #272 on: March 26, 2013, 03:18:06 PM »

And some are wondering why folks don't want to you speaking for anyone else.

You don't seem to have a problem with it.

With you speaking for others? Not really, as you likely represent many ill informed people out there. I just wish you more interesting when you did it.

I mean with you speaking for others.
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choy
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« Reply #273 on: March 26, 2013, 03:20:20 PM »

Anyway, going back on-topic, if my statement was wrong then why do Roman Catholics call the Pope the "visible head" and "the point of communion"?
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Apotheoun
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« Reply #274 on: March 26, 2013, 03:25:07 PM »

Of course the RCC believes that Christ is the head, but in absentia.  That is why a vicar is needed.
Dzheremi has some great posts on the Western use of the word "vicar" at the Catholic Answers Forum. To read them do a search for a thread entitled "Is Orthodoxy the true Church?" I would post a link, but I do not know if that is permitted.
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« Reply #275 on: March 26, 2013, 03:26:18 PM »

And some are wondering why folks don't want to you speaking for anyone else.

You don't seem to have a problem with it.
Ignore the sniping of malcontents. I have enjoyed reading your posts. Please continue.
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« Reply #276 on: March 26, 2013, 03:32:02 PM »

Choy, I thought you might find the quotation below by Anglican author George Every (S.S.M.) interesting:


"[In the East] the primacy of Rome was seldom directly denied, in the sense of 'the primacy among her sisters, and the presidency in the first place of honor at General Councils,' but the Latin interpretation of the primacy in terms of jurisdiction revealed a difference between East and West in the doctrine of the Church. Attempts were made to relate this to the filioque, but these could not penetrate to the heart of the matter while the distinctive element in Latin theology was very little, if at all, understood in the East. St. Augustine was not translated into Greek before the fourteenth century. His De Civitate Dei and his anti-Donatist writings did much to determine the development of the Western doctrine of the Church, as his anti-Pelagian writings are the starting-point of all Western controversies on the nature of grace. Grace is the connecting link between theology (in the Byzantine sense of the doctrine of the Trinity) and ecclesiology, the doctrine of the Church. The Eastern Churches never had a doctrine of created grace, of the gifts of God apart from the gift of Himself to the baptized who are buried and risen with Christ and live and reign in the Holy Spirit. Therefore they could never understand the idea of the vicar of Christ ruling His Church in His absence. They thought of their bishops not in the first place as rulers, but as high-priests in the presence of Christ and the Spirit, witnesses to the truth, and stewards of the mysteries of God." [George Every, S.S.M., The Byzantine Patriarchate 451-1204, pages 191-192]
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« Reply #277 on: March 26, 2013, 03:36:17 PM »

And some are wondering why folks don't want to you speaking for anyone else.

You don't seem to have a problem with it.

With you speaking for others? Not really, as you likely represent many ill informed people out there. I just wish you more interesting when you did it.

I mean with you speaking for others.

Link or it didn't happen. And it helps, when you are pretty much right all the time.
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« Reply #278 on: March 26, 2013, 03:38:18 PM »

And some are wondering why folks don't want to you speaking for anyone else.

You don't seem to have a problem with it.
Ignore the sniping of malcontents. I have enjoyed reading your posts. Please continue.

A person less than myself would call you to task for this.

*Actually, orthonorm is out sourcing all his posts here, so indeed someone else less than orthonorm is writing this, in case you were going to bring up the implication of accusation via negation.
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« Reply #279 on: March 26, 2013, 03:39:59 PM »

And some are I am wondering why folks don't want to you speaking for anyone else.
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« Reply #280 on: March 26, 2013, 03:41:27 PM »

And some are wondering why folks don't want to you speaking for anyone else.

You don't seem to have a problem with it.
Ignore the sniping of malcontents. I have enjoyed reading your posts. Please continue.

A person less than myself would call you to task for this.

*Actually, orthonorm is out sourcing all his posts here, so indeed someone else less than orthonorm is writing this, in case you were going to bring up the implication of accusation via negation.
Your problems with Choy are not the subject of this thread, and quite frankly I do not care what you (or the person you are outsourcing the creation of your posts to) think about him or his posts.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 03:44:44 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

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« Reply #281 on: March 26, 2013, 03:46:56 PM »

And some are wondering why folks don't want to you speaking for anyone else.

You don't seem to have a problem with it.
Ignore the sniping of malcontents. I have enjoyed reading your posts. Please continue.

A person less than myself would call you to task for this.

*Actually, orthonorm is out sourcing all his posts here, so indeed someone else less than orthonorm is writing this, in case you were going to bring up the implication of accusation via negation.
Your problems with Choy are not the subject of this thread, and quite frankly I do not care what you (or the person you are outsourcing the creation of your posts to) think about him or his posts.

Just to point out and I am finished with you, there is nothing in my post you quoted about how I or whoever typed that thinks about choy or his posts.

It was referencing the comments of others.

Frankly, I couldn't tell you anything about choy that didn't occur prior to his obvious incorrect comment about the RCC's view on Papal infallibility a few posts back other than some posters don't care for how he characterizes other elements within the OC and without.
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« Reply #282 on: March 26, 2013, 03:51:55 PM »

Just to point out and I am finished with you, there is nothing in my post you quoted about how I or whoever typed that thinks about choy or his posts.

It was referencing the comments of others.

Frankly, I couldn't tell you anything about choy that didn't occur prior to his obvious incorrect comment about the RCC's view on Papal infallibility a few posts back other than some posters don't care for how he characterizes other elements within the OC and without.
I am glad you are done with me, and now maybe you can be done with Choy and stop telling him what he should or should not post, and that he should not speak for others, when you do that yourself.

If Choy is wrong (doctrinally) in one of his posts, then by all means show where he has made his error. But to simply snipe at him telling him to "stop talking for others" is pointless. He was a Roman Catholic and I am sure he knows some Roman Catholic doctrine. But if he is wrong about something (e.g., the nature of the word "vicar" and its usage in the Roman Church) prove him wrong and move on.
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« Reply #283 on: March 26, 2013, 03:54:29 PM »

Choy, sorry if I offended you, dude.

To be up with the thread - maybe someone would care to post some links to articles explaining the papal infallibility from the catholic point of view (interpretation of fragments of New Testament and reason as to why this way and not another, and so forth).
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« Reply #284 on: March 26, 2013, 03:58:16 PM »

Choy, sorry if I offended you, dude.

To be up with the thread - maybe someone would care to post some links to articles explaining the papal infallibility from the catholic point of view (interpretation of fragments of New Testament and reason as to why this way and not another, and so forth).

Maybe start a separate thread.  I'm guessing there's already been a zillion discussions/threads here about papal infallibility.
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« Reply #285 on: March 26, 2013, 04:15:13 PM »

Views on infallibility:

Orthodox Christians: The Church is infallible as it is the Bride of Christ with Christ as its head. This can be seen with the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils and its Holy Canons.

My priest says that only Christ is infallible.  I guess it depends on how you would define Church here.  Some would argue that people in the Church would wound their communion with the Church if they commit error.  There is also the view that even Ecumenical Councils themselves are not infallible.
Then how are they any different than a Protestant council? NOTE: I do NOT think EOs are Protestants.
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« Reply #286 on: March 26, 2013, 04:15:13 PM »

Views on infallibility:

Orthodox Christians: The Church is infallible as it is the Bride of Christ with Christ as its head. This can be seen with the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils and its Holy Canons.

Roman Catholics: Since 1870, the Pope of Rome has been declared to be supreme over all Christians and infallible whenever he issues a statement on faith or morals ex cathedral. Since the Pope is supreme even over the canons of the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils, he can and has changed those Holy Canons. (See the New Code of Canon Law).

Protestants: The Bible is holy, infallible, and inerrant as it is the Word of God, so when the Bible is read, each Christian will interpret it with infallibility. Thus each Protestant is infallible, a priest, and a pope of his own family.


I really don't want to revisit the whole issue of papal infallibility--it's been beaten to death over and over and over again on this board--but for some reason many Orthodox seem to have the totally misguided notion that Christ is NOT the head of the (non-Orthodox) Catholic Church, His Bride.  He is.  Period.

Of course the RCC believes that Christ is the head, but in absentia.  That is why a vicar is needed.
Not absent. "I am with you always, even through the end of time." But just as each diocese has a visible pastor in the bishop, one who represents Christ, so too does the universal Catholic Church.
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« Reply #287 on: March 26, 2013, 04:15:13 PM »

The Catholic Encyclopedia
, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “
The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”
St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal and Doctor of the Church,


And that's why the Orthodox Church hasn't had a Roman Pope since 1054...
so you believe all the popes after 1054 are simply heretics? and the ones before 1054 were not heretics? who is your leader, this guy, if so do you agree with his stance on abortion?

His Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople when he visited San Francisco in 1990 made the following statement on the Orthodox position on abortion-

Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy,” Barthlomew said, the churchalso “respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples . . . . We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples,” he also said. “We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.” (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90p.A22)

We don't have 'a leader'. We don't need 'a leader' and certainly not an infallible one. The head of the Church is Christ. All bishops are equal, and equally fallible. And that most certainly includes the Pope of Rome when he was still Orthodox just as it includes the Ecumenical Patriarch now. As for the Popes since 1054, they were all schismatics and/or heretics. The status of the Popes prior to 1054 varies, most were Orthodox, but some were certainly heretics (Honorius I springs to mind).

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Of course this is my view, but you get the point.

But, you appear to miss my point, which was that sedevacantist asked if the EP was our leader as though we necessarily must have one. It was the assumption that our ecclesiology must be like that of modern Rome that I wanted to point out as being wrong. Even you, however, must be able to see the difference between the Orthodox position and the Protestant one you attempted to parody it with. We are not throwing out Tradition as the Protestants do, we are refusing to add to it. As we are, you once were. But then you believe in 'development of doctrine'...

James
I'm going to ignore the bolded part because it's just not worth getting into. The point I am making is that it is silly to suggest that there cannot be a Pope simply because Christ is the head of the Church. When you guys make this argument it's just a bad argument, unless of course you want to throw out Patriarchs, Bishops, and Priest.
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« Reply #288 on: March 26, 2013, 04:15:13 PM »

Anyway, going back on-topic, if my statement was wrong then why do Roman Catholics call the Pope the "visible head" and "the point of communion"?
In the same way that bishop can in a sense be called the "Visible Head" of the diocese. Both Bishops and the Pope are vicars of Christ, but in different ways.
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« Reply #289 on: March 26, 2013, 04:15:13 PM »

Anyway, going back on-topic, if my statement was wrong then why do Roman Catholics call the Pope the "visible head" and "the point of communion"?
Is not communion with an Orthodox Bishop a necessary part of your faith? As is not a teaching that the entire catholic church is present in its fullness in the local parish? So is the Orthodox Bishop not a head of the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #290 on: March 26, 2013, 08:43:33 PM »


So, I was talking with an RC coworker today, and he said that the Pope no longer claims infallibility.

He then asked me who our head hancho is, which gave me a great opportunity to give a short lesson in Orthodoxy. All bishops equal, first among equals and that Christ is at the Head of our Church.

so this guy was off his rocker?

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that EVERY CHURCH SHOULD AGREE WITH THIS CHURCH, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, (3,3,2), 180 A.D.)
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« Reply #291 on: March 26, 2013, 08:46:22 PM »

The Catholic Encyclopedia
, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “
The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”
St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal and Doctor of the Church,


And that's why the Orthodox Church hasn't had a Roman Pope since 1054...
I'm trying to figure out what the orthodox believe as i get conflicting answers, before 1054 did you believe in the papacy, my belief was no. but here you are implying yes?
so you believe all the popes after 1054 are simply heretics? and the ones before 1054 were not heretics? who is your leader, this guy, if so do you agree with his stance on abortion?

His Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople when he visited San Francisco in 1990 made the following statement on the Orthodox position on abortion-

Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy,” Barthlomew said, the churchalso “respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples . . . . We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples,” he also said. “We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.” (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90p.A22)

What is the difference between believing that all the popes after 1054 were heretics, and believing that all the popes after 1870, 1917, or 1959 were heretics?


You don't believe all the popes after 1054 are canonical Popes.

Exactly.


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« Reply #292 on: March 26, 2013, 08:48:13 PM »

The Catholic Encyclopedia
, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “
The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”
St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal and Doctor of the Church,


And that's why the Orthodox Church hasn't had a Roman Pope since 1054...
I'm trying to figure out what the orthodox believe as i get conflicting answers, before 1054 did you believe in the papacy, my belief was no. but here you are implying yes?
so you believe all the popes after 1054 are simply heretics? and the ones before 1054 were not heretics? who is your leader, this guy, if so do you agree with his stance on abortion?

His Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople when he visited San Francisco in 1990 made the following statement on the Orthodox position on abortion-

Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy,” Barthlomew said, the churchalso “respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples . . . . We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples,” he also said. “We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.” (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90p.A22)

What is the difference between believing that all the popes after 1054 were heretics, and believing that all the popes after 1870, 1917, or 1959 were heretics?


You don't believe all the popes after 1054 are canonical Popes.

Exactly.


sorry, I wanted to clarify what the orthox believed prior to 1054, I thought you didn' tbelieve inthe papacy, but here aren't you implyingyou did?
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« Reply #293 on: March 26, 2013, 08:51:19 PM »

Anyway, going back on-topic, if my statement was wrong then why do Roman Catholics call the Pope the "visible head" and "the point of communion"?
Is not communion with an Orthodox Bishop a necessary part of your faith? As is not a teaching that the entire catholic church is present in its fullness in the local parish? So is the Orthodox Bishop not a head of the Orthodox Church?

No.  If there is one orthodox bishop left and everyone else falls into heresy, why does that orthodox bishop need to be in communion with a heretic to be orthodox?

Basically, the Orthodox Bishops are in communion because they are orthodox, not that they are orthodox because they are in communion with someone (whoever that is).
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« Reply #294 on: March 26, 2013, 08:55:34 PM »

The Catholic Encyclopedia
, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “
The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”
St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal and Doctor of the Church,


And that's why the Orthodox Church hasn't had a Roman Pope since 1054...
I'm trying to figure out what the orthodox believe as i get conflicting answers, before 1054 did you believe in the papacy, my belief was no. but here you are implying yes?
so you believe all the popes after 1054 are simply heretics? and the ones before 1054 were not heretics? who is your leader, this guy, if so do you agree with his stance on abortion?

His Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople when he visited San Francisco in 1990 made the following statement on the Orthodox position on abortion-

Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy,” Barthlomew said, the churchalso “respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples . . . . We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples,” he also said. “We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.” (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90p.A22)

What is the difference between believing that all the popes after 1054 were heretics, and believing that all the popes after 1870, 1917, or 1959 were heretics?


You don't believe all the popes after 1054 are canonical Popes.

Exactly.


sorry, I wanted to clarify what the orthox believed prior to 1054, I thought you didn' tbelieve inthe papacy, but here aren't you implyingyou did?


Just when the formatting couldn't get worse?

How you do believe that Orthodox don't "believe" in papacy?

You might to check what that word means in a strict sense.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 08:56:00 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #295 on: March 26, 2013, 09:59:24 PM »


So, I was talking with an RC coworker today, and he said that the Pope no longer claims infallibility.

He then asked me who our head hancho is, which gave me a great opportunity to give a short lesson in Orthodoxy. All bishops equal, first among equals and that Christ is at the Head of our Church.

so this guy was off his rocker?

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that EVERY CHURCH SHOULD AGREE WITH THIS CHURCH, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, (3,3,2), 180 A.D.)
Yes, this passage from St. Irenaeus has been brought up and the Roman Catholic interpretation refuted more times than I care to remember on this forum. It's an old canard, a very old canard.
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« Reply #296 on: March 26, 2013, 11:33:41 PM »

PtA, are you using the word 'canard' to mean a false story?  Or a repeated story with an incorrect conclusion?

Either way, would you be willing to expound on this a little?  If it's false, on why it's false, and if the conclusion is wrong, a link or quick explanation of why as well(?)
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« Reply #297 on: March 27, 2013, 01:06:04 AM »

PtA, are you using the word 'canard' to mean a false story?  Or a repeated story with an incorrect conclusion?
In this case, both.

Either way, would you be willing to expound on this a little?  If it's false, on why it's false, and if the conclusion is wrong, a link or quick explanation of why as well(?)
Just follow the tag I added to this thread: "That Irenaeus quote". I really don't feel like repeating the work others have already done.
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« Reply #298 on: March 27, 2013, 01:54:35 AM »


So, I was talking with an RC coworker today, and he said that the Pope no longer claims infallibility.

He then asked me who our head hancho is, which gave me a great opportunity to give a short lesson in Orthodoxy. All bishops equal, first among equals and that Christ is at the Head of our Church.

so this guy was off his rocker?

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that EVERY CHURCH SHOULD AGREE WITH THIS CHURCH, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, (3,3,2), 180 A.D.)
Yes, this passage from St. Irenaeus has been brought up and the Roman Catholic interpretation refuted more times than I care to remember on this forum. It's an old canard, a very old canard.
Yes, the linguistic acrobatics that some EO apologists perform in order to undermine the clear meaning of the text is well documented.  Cheesy
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« Reply #299 on: March 27, 2013, 04:39:14 AM »

The Catholic Encyclopedia
, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “
The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”
St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal and Doctor of the Church,


And that's why the Orthodox Church hasn't had a Roman Pope since 1054...
so you believe all the popes after 1054 are simply heretics? and the ones before 1054 were not heretics? who is your leader, this guy, if so do you agree with his stance on abortion?

His Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople when he visited San Francisco in 1990 made the following statement on the Orthodox position on abortion-

Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy,” Barthlomew said, the churchalso “respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples . . . . We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples,” he also said. “We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.” (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90p.A22)

We don't have 'a leader'. We don't need 'a leader' and certainly not an infallible one. The head of the Church is Christ. All bishops are equal, and equally fallible. And that most certainly includes the Pope of Rome when he was still Orthodox just as it includes the Ecumenical Patriarch now. As for the Popes since 1054, they were all schismatics and/or heretics. The status of the Popes prior to 1054 varies, most were Orthodox, but some were certainly heretics (Honorius I springs to mind).

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Protestant: "We don't have a priest. We don't need "priest" and certainly not an ordained one. The head of our Church is Christ. All believers are equal, and equlally priests. And that most certainly includes Eastern Orthodox Bishops and Lay people. As for Patriarchs since the time of Constantine, they are all heretics. The status of priests/presbyters varies prior to that. Most were christians, but some were certainly sacramental heretics."
 
Of course this is my view, but you get the point.

But, you appear to miss my point, which was that sedevacantist asked if the EP was our leader as though we necessarily must have one. It was the assumption that our ecclesiology must be like that of modern Rome that I wanted to point out as being wrong. Even you, however, must be able to see the difference between the Orthodox position and the Protestant one you attempted to parody it with. We are not throwing out Tradition as the Protestants do, we are refusing to add to it. As we are, you once were. But then you believe in 'development of doctrine'...

James
I'm going to ignore the bolded part because it's just not worth getting into. The point I am making is that it is silly to suggest that there cannot be a Pope simply because Christ is the head of the Church. When you guys make this argument it's just a bad argument, unless of course you want to throw out Patriarchs, Bishops, and Priest.

Fair enough, but I didn't make that argument. You read it into what I wrote, presumably because you expected to see it there. I fully appreciate that you believe Christ to be head of the Church, but you also have, to use sedevacantists words, 'a leader'. I was responding to his assumption that we, like Rome, must have a visible head of the Church on earth, not making the argument you assumed I was. We have no such 'leader' and nor do we need one - unlike sedevacantist who appears to be in the somewhat untenable position of needing one and yet finding that there isn't one to be had.

James
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« Reply #300 on: March 27, 2013, 04:44:24 AM »


So, I was talking with an RC coworker today, and he said that the Pope no longer claims infallibility.

He then asked me who our head hancho is, which gave me a great opportunity to give a short lesson in Orthodoxy. All bishops equal, first among equals and that Christ is at the Head of our Church.

so this guy was off his rocker?

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that EVERY CHURCH SHOULD AGREE WITH THIS CHURCH, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, (3,3,2), 180 A.D.)
Yes, this passage from St. Irenaeus has been brought up and the Roman Catholic interpretation refuted more times than I care to remember on this forum. It's an old canard, a very old canard.
Yes, the linguistic acrobatics that some EO apologists perform in order to undermine the clear meaning of the text is well documented.  Cheesy

As opposed to the convenient inability to see such phrases as inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously that RC apologists repeatedly demonstrate? Honestly, seeing the papacy in the Fathers or the history of the early Church has always seemed somewhat akin to finding faces in the flames to me - you see what you want to see but it doesn't mean it's there.

James
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« Reply #301 on: March 27, 2013, 04:49:35 AM »


So, I was talking with an RC coworker today, and he said that the Pope no longer claims infallibility.

He then asked me who our head hancho is, which gave me a great opportunity to give a short lesson in Orthodoxy. All bishops equal, first among equals and that Christ is at the Head of our Church.

so this guy was off his rocker?

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that EVERY CHURCH SHOULD AGREE WITH THIS CHURCH, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, (3,3,2), 180 A.D.)
Yes, this passage from St. Irenaeus has been brought up and the Roman Catholic interpretation refuted more times than I care to remember on this forum. It's an old canard, a very old canard.
Yes, the linguistic acrobatics that some EO apologists perform in order to undermine the clear meaning of the text is well documented.  Cheesy
I'm just curious, that isn't the only text you rely on right?
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« Reply #302 on: March 27, 2013, 06:18:40 AM »

The original text of St. Irenaeus' against heresies isn't even preserved. The only thing we have is a Latin translation. Not at all reliable, if you ask me.
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« Reply #303 on: March 27, 2013, 10:36:26 AM »


So, I was talking with an RC coworker today, and he said that the Pope no longer claims infallibility.

He then asked me who our head hancho is, which gave me a great opportunity to give a short lesson in Orthodoxy. All bishops equal, first among equals and that Christ is at the Head of our Church.

so this guy was off his rocker?

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that EVERY CHURCH SHOULD AGREE WITH THIS CHURCH, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, (3,3,2), 180 A.D.)
Yes, this passage from St. Irenaeus has been brought up and the Roman Catholic interpretation refuted more times than I care to remember on this forum. It's an old canard, a very old canard.
Yes, the linguistic acrobatics that some EO apologists perform in order to undermine the clear meaning of the text is well documented.  Cheesy
Yes, the linguistic acrobatics that some RC apologists perform in order to read into the text meaning that ain't there is well documented, too. laugh
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« Reply #304 on: March 27, 2013, 10:40:53 AM »


So, I was talking with an RC coworker today, and he said that the Pope no longer claims infallibility.

He then asked me who our head hancho is, which gave me a great opportunity to give a short lesson in Orthodoxy. All bishops equal, first among equals and that Christ is at the Head of our Church.

so this guy was off his rocker?

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that EVERY CHURCH SHOULD AGREE WITH THIS CHURCH, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, (3,3,2), 180 A.D.)
Yes, this passage from St. Irenaeus has been brought up and the Roman Catholic interpretation refuted more times than I care to remember on this forum. It's an old canard, a very old canard.
Yes, the linguistic acrobatics that some EO apologists perform in order to undermine the clear meaning of the text is well documented.  Cheesy
I'm just curious, that isn't the only text you rely on right?
No, there are quite a few others.
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« Reply #305 on: March 27, 2013, 10:54:31 AM »


So, I was talking with an RC coworker today, and he said that the Pope no longer claims infallibility.

He then asked me who our head hancho is, which gave me a great opportunity to give a short lesson in Orthodoxy. All bishops equal, first among equals and that Christ is at the Head of our Church.

so this guy was off his rocker?

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that EVERY CHURCH SHOULD AGREE WITH THIS CHURCH, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, (3,3,2), 180 A.D.)
Yes, this passage from St. Irenaeus has been brought up and the Roman Catholic interpretation refuted more times than I care to remember on this forum. It's an old canard, a very old canard.
Yes, the linguistic acrobatics that some EO apologists perform in order to undermine the clear meaning of the text is well documented.  Cheesy

As opposed to the convenient inability to see such phrases as inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously that RC apologists repeatedly demonstrate? Honestly, seeing the papacy in the Fathers or the history of the early Church has always seemed somewhat akin to finding faces in the flames to me - you see what you want to see but it doesn't mean it's there.

James
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

The translations that I have read do not say "In as much as." It just say that Rome has preserved tradition. The reason for giving assent to the teachings of Rome are not the preservation of tradition but Rome's "superior origin"/"Preeminent authority". Now I have seen it translated both ways: superior origin and preeminent authority. In either case, the passage does not make it dependent on a conditional of having preserved tradition, but not something essential to the Church of Rome (her origin/authority). However, given that St. Iranaeus has just fninished descirbing the orgin of the Bishopric in Rome, the translation "superior origin" seems to make a great deal of sense. Though, given that the Greek text is no longer available, I would like to read the Latin texst.
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« Reply #306 on: March 27, 2013, 01:45:48 PM »

Views on infallibility:

Orthodox Christians: The Church is infallible as it is the Bride of Christ with Christ as its head. This can be seen with the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils and its Holy Canons.

Roman Catholics: Since 1870, the Pope of Rome has been declared to be supreme over all Christians and infallible whenever he issues a statement on faith or morals ex cathedral. Since the Pope is supreme even over the canons of the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils, he can and has changed those Holy Canons. (See the New Code of Canon Law).

Protestants: The Bible is holy, infallible, and inerrant as it is the Word of God, so when the Bible is read, each Christian will interpret it with infallibility. Thus each Protestant is infallible, a priest, and a pope of his own family.


I really don't want to revisit the whole issue of papal infallibility--it's been beaten to death over and over and over again on this board--but for some reason many Orthodox seem to have the totally misguided notion that Christ is NOT the head of the (non-Orthodox) Catholic Church, His Bride.  He is.  Period.

Of course the RCC believes that Christ is the head, but in absentia.  That is why a vicar is needed.
Not absent. "I am with you always, even through the end of time." But just as each diocese has a visible pastor in the bishop, one who represents Christ, so too does the universal Catholic Church.

I've been thinking about this. Is there anyway you can twist the etymology of vicar to suggest that it doesn't mean to stand in for.

I think it is an unhappy word to use.
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« Reply #307 on: March 27, 2013, 01:58:14 PM »

Views on infallibility:

Orthodox Christians: The Church is infallible as it is the Bride of Christ with Christ as its head. This can be seen with the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils and its Holy Canons.

Roman Catholics: Since 1870, the Pope of Rome has been declared to be supreme over all Christians and infallible whenever he issues a statement on faith or morals ex cathedral. Since the Pope is supreme even over the canons of the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils, he can and has changed those Holy Canons. (See the New Code of Canon Law).

Protestants: The Bible is holy, infallible, and inerrant as it is the Word of God, so when the Bible is read, each Christian will interpret it with infallibility. Thus each Protestant is infallible, a priest, and a pope of his own family.


I really don't want to revisit the whole issue of papal infallibility--it's been beaten to death over and over and over again on this board--but for some reason many Orthodox seem to have the totally misguided notion that Christ is NOT the head of the (non-Orthodox) Catholic Church, His Bride.  He is.  Period.

Of course the RCC believes that Christ is the head, but in absentia.  That is why a vicar is needed.
Not absent. "I am with you always, even through the end of time." But just as each diocese has a visible pastor in the bishop, one who represents Christ, so too does the universal Catholic Church.

I've been thinking about this. Is there anyway you can twist the etymology of vicar to suggest that it doesn't mean to stand in for.

I think it is an unhappy word to use.
Perhaps it is an unhappy word use and we should shoot for another. One might say that the pope is a stand in for Christ's visible presence.
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« Reply #308 on: March 27, 2013, 02:23:38 PM »

Though, given that the Greek text is no longer available, I would like to read the Latin texst.

Here. The relevant part starts at paragraph 2 of caput III and continues on the next page.
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« Reply #309 on: March 27, 2013, 02:59:23 PM »

Though, given that the Greek text is no longer available, I would like to read the Latin texst.

Here. The relevant part starts at paragraph 2 of caput III and continues on the next page.
Thanks. My latin is pretty wee so it may take a while for me to read through the relevant passages.
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« Reply #310 on: March 27, 2013, 03:36:51 PM »

Thanks. My latin is pretty wee so it may take a while for me to read through the relevant passages.

Not to stereotype or anything, but Scots aren't known for their Latin.
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« Reply #311 on: March 27, 2013, 03:52:14 PM »

Thanks. My latin is pretty wee so it may take a while for me to read through the relevant passages.

Not to stereotype or anything, but Scots aren't known for their Latin.

*In my best Uncle Argyle imitation*

Well, that is something we shall have to remedy, now isn't it?

(Braveheart reference)
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« Reply #312 on: March 27, 2013, 05:43:48 PM »

Thanks. My latin is pretty wee so it may take a while for me to read through the relevant passages.

Not to stereotype or anything, but Scots aren't known for their Latin.
Who's a scot?
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« Reply #313 on: March 27, 2013, 08:31:24 PM »

Choy, I thought you might find the quotation below by Anglican author George Every (S.S.M.) interesting:


"[In the East] the primacy of Rome was seldom directly denied, in the sense of 'the primacy among her sisters, and the presidency in the first place of honor at General Councils,' but the Latin interpretation of the primacy in terms of jurisdiction revealed a difference between East and West in the doctrine of the Church. Attempts were made to relate this to the filioque, but these could not penetrate to the heart of the matter while the distinctive element in Latin theology was very little, if at all, understood in the East. St. Augustine was not translated into Greek before the fourteenth century. His De Civitate Dei and his anti-Donatist writings did much to determine the development of the Western doctrine of the Church, as his anti-Pelagian writings are the starting-point of all Western controversies on the nature of grace. Grace is the connecting link between theology (in the Byzantine sense of the doctrine of the Trinity) and ecclesiology, the doctrine of the Church. The Eastern Churches never had a doctrine of created grace, of the gifts of God apart from the gift of Himself to the baptized who are buried and risen with Christ and live and reign in the Holy Spirit. Therefore they could never understand the idea of the vicar of Christ ruling His Church in His absence. They thought of their bishops not in the first place as rulers, but as high-priests in the presence of Christ and the Spirit, witnesses to the truth, and stewards of the mysteries of God." [George Every, S.S.M., The Byzantine Patriarchate 451-1204, pages 191-192]

As some would say, the Orthodox do not have a problem with the primacy of the Pope of Rome.  The issue really with Rome is what "primacy" means.  This is why even casual conversations between Catholics and Orthodox do not go well on this matter.  Yes, there are many sources of people in Church history that can be quoted as upholding the primacy of Rome.  But when both sides hear that word, each side has a different idea.
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« Reply #314 on: March 27, 2013, 08:36:34 PM »

Perhaps it is an unhappy word use and we should shoot for another. One might say that the pope is a stand in for Christ's visible presence.

Still flawed.  Does this make the Pope merely a puppet and Christ pulls his strings to do what He wants?

If Christ intended St. Peter to be the infallible supreme ruler of the Church in his stead, why did he choose 12 Apostles?  Why not just St. Peter and train him well then let him select his own "bishops" who are under him.  Obviously in our iconographic tradition we do see equal value to those called by Christ personally to be the Apostles, which is why St. Matthias normally doesn't appear in depictions of the 12 and is instead replaced by St. Paul, because St. Paul was personally called by Christ while St. Matthias was elevated to the office of Judas by the 11.
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