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Author Topic: Re: Why a closed Eucharist?  (Read 1280 times) Average Rating: 0
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Virtual Paradise
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« on: March 16, 2013, 07:47:36 PM »

I think it is about unworthiness and about confessing the same faith.
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2013, 06:02:59 PM »

The way I see it, one of the reasons might be because the EOC believes the Eucharist can have a negative effect if one receives it with unworthiness. So perhaps the EOC practices a closed communion because it thinks it can have an harming effect on those who are not of the same faith, worship and ecclesiastical life ? Or is it politics? A way of making people convert to the EOC? It would also be interesting to have a grasp on the OOC position concerning this.
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2013, 06:04:43 PM »

The way I see it, one of the reasons might be because the EOC believes the Eucharist can have an negative effect if one receives it with unworthiness. So perhaps the EOC practices a closed communion because it thinks it can have an harming effect on those who are not of the same faith, worship and ecclesiastical life ? Or is it politics? A way of making people convert to the EOC? It would also be interesting to have a grasp on the OOC concerning this.

I think this is why. I was a little jealous when I first went to an Orthodox church and realized I couldn't take Communion. If, God willing, I am one day ready to make the conversion, that will be something I can do. I have to see that they are this way for a reason. I have to humble myself. Not easy, but worth it in the end.  Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2013, 06:14:05 PM »

The way I see it, one of the reasons might be because the EOC believes the Eucharist can have an negative effect if one receives it with unworthiness. So perhaps the EOC practices a closed communion because it thinks it can have an harming effect on those who are not of the same faith, worship and ecclesiastical life ? Or is it politics? A way of making people convert to the EOC? It would also be interesting to have a grasp on the OOC concerning this.

I think this is why. I was a little jealous when I first went to an Orthodox church and realized I couldn't take Communion. If, God willing, I am one day ready to make the conversion, that will be something I can do. I have to see that they are this way for a reason. I have to humble myself. Not easy, but worth it in the end.  Smiley

What were you referring when you said "I think this is why" ?

I am an EOC (Romanian Orthodox) , and I have a hard time understanding this and also the possibility of an Orthodox layman to be banned from the Eucharist or even get Excommunicated (Expelled).
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2013, 06:18:54 PM »

Do Oriental Orthodox practice closed communion ?
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2013, 06:38:41 PM »

I meant to say that I think closed Communion is ultimately for the spiritual protection of those who may otherwise partake inappropriately. Seen that way, it is a good thing. Sorry if I was not clear.

It doesn't make sense to me. It seams unreasonable and immoral. Why not a negative effect for baptism also, or christmation, or the rest of the sacraments if partaken inappropriately/unworthy ?
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2013, 07:05:38 PM »

I meant to say that I think closed Communion is ultimately for the spiritual protection of those who may otherwise partake inappropriately. Seen that way, it is a good thing. Sorry if I was not clear.

It doesn't make sense to me. It seams unreasonable and immoral. Why not a negative effect for baptism also, or christmation, or the rest of the sacraments if partaken inappropriately/unworthy ?
Take that up with St. Paul.
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2013, 07:41:20 PM »

Do Oriental Orthodox practice closed communion ?

yes, definitely.
(except for armenians, occasionally, if what i read on these forums is true).
some OO commune eastern orthodox (just the ordinary people, not the clergy, coz that would complicate things), but that still means to me 'closed communion', as i / we consider you guys orthodox too!

i also found it hard to wait to take communion, but the waiting for many months helped me to be sure about what it was i was getting into and why. it also helped me to be a bit more patient in life generally, as i had to accept the concept of waiting (or go crazy trying to fight it!)

may God bless all those who are searching on their spiritual journey, and may you all have a blessed clean monday and cope well with the 'waiting' while the forum is down!
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« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2013, 04:04:35 AM »

Do Oriental Orthodox practice closed communion ?

yes, definitely.
(except for armenians, occasionally, if what i read on these forums is true).
some OO commune eastern orthodox (just the ordinary people, not the clergy, coz that would complicate things), but that still means to me 'closed communion', as i / we consider you guys orthodox too!

i also found it hard to wait to take communion, but the waiting for many months helped me to be sure about what it was i was getting into and why. it also helped me to be a bit more patient in life generally, as i had to accept the concept of waiting (or go crazy trying to fight it!)

may God bless all those who are searching on their spiritual journey, and may you all have a blessed clean monday and cope well with the 'waiting' while the forum is down!

Do they do this with any laity of any religion (allowing them to receive communion) ?

A closed communion makes no sense to me.

And a negative effect of the Eucharist or any God given sacrament does not sound that benevolent and moral to me. It's like that quote "If you can help anyone at least don't harm them" . It makes sense that is the Eucharist or any other sacrament is taken inappropriately to have no effect rather than a harming effect. Just saying...
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2013, 04:50:58 AM »

Do Oriental Orthodox practice closed communion ?

yes, definitely.
(except for armenians, occasionally, if what i read on these forums is true).
some OO commune eastern orthodox (just the ordinary people, not the clergy, coz that would complicate things), but that still means to me 'closed communion', as i / we consider you guys orthodox too!

i also found it hard to wait to take communion, but the waiting for many months helped me to be sure about what it was i was getting into and why. it also helped me to be a bit more patient in life generally, as i had to accept the concept of waiting (or go crazy trying to fight it!)

may God bless all those who are searching on their spiritual journey, and may you all have a blessed clean monday and cope well with the 'waiting' while the forum is down!

Do they do this with any laity of any religion (allowing them to receive communion) ?

A closed communion makes no sense to me.

And a negative effect of the Eucharist or any God given sacrament does not sound that benevolent and moral to me. It's like that quote "If you can help anyone at least don't harm them" . It makes sense that is the Eucharist or any other sacrament is taken inappropriately to have no effect rather than a harming effect. Just saying...

What 'makes sense' to you is hardly of consequence if it contradicts Scripture surely?

Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. 1 Corinthians 27 - 32

Quite clearly states that taking the Eucharist unworthily is harmful wouldn't you say?

James
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« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2013, 11:27:33 AM »

The way I see it, one of the reasons might be because the EOC believes the Eucharist can have an negative effect if one receives it with unworthiness. So perhaps the EOC practices a closed communion because it thinks it can have an harming effect on those who are not of the same faith, worship and ecclesiastical life ? Or is it politics? A way of making people convert to the EOC? It would also be interesting to have a grasp on the OOC concerning this.

I think this is why. I was a little jealous when I first went to an Orthodox church and realized I couldn't take Communion. If, God willing, I am one day ready to make the conversion, that will be something I can do. I have to see that they are this way for a reason. I have to humble myself. Not easy, but worth it in the end.  Smiley

What were you referring when you said "I think this is why" ?

I am an EOC (Romanian Orthodox) , and I have a hard time understanding this and also the possibility of an Orthodox layman to be banned from the Eucharist or even get Excommunicated (Expelled).


A few points.

1. Being banned from the Eucharist and being excommunicated are essentially the same thing.

2. Such actions are not restricted to the laity.

3. Excommunication is very common and is effected by members who do not partake of Holy Communion of their own volition, sinfulness or laziness. We are all called to commune, not once, four times,  or monthly but each time that the Lord is offered to us for the healing of soul and body. We approach the Holy Chalice after we have repented of our sins, reconciled to our enemies and the Church, forgiven those who have wronged us, and have led the life we are called to in general: fasting, praying, etc.. in accordance with the standards of the Church. None of those make any of us worthy--even patriarchs,  but when we approach Christ even though we are unworthy, we must have tried to lead the life of one of His disciples. So, when we do not take Holy Communion for reasons that are not acceptable for one of His disciples, we excommunicate ourselves. What I do not understand is the mentality of those who take communion once or four times a year. Even with greater preparation, how can the Church excuse the unpreparedness for more frequent communion, not as a matter of exception but a matter of course?
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« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2013, 12:57:27 PM »

I think it is about unworthiness and about confessing the same faith.

None of us are worthy, but if you have faith then Christ will make you (and everyone of us) worthy.
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« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2013, 01:29:36 PM »

The way I see it, one of the reasons might be because the EOC believes the Eucharist can have an negative effect if one receives it with unworthiness. So perhaps the EOC practices a closed communion because it thinks it can have an harming effect on those who are not of the same faith, worship and ecclesiastical life ? Or is it politics? A way of making people convert to the EOC? It would also be interesting to have a grasp on the OOC concerning this.

I think this is why. I was a little jealous when I first went to an Orthodox church and realized I couldn't take Communion. If, God willing, I am one day ready to make the conversion, that will be something I can do. I have to see that they are this way for a reason. I have to humble myself. Not easy, but worth it in the end.  Smiley

What were you referring when you said "I think this is why" ?

I am an EOC (Romanian Orthodox) , and I have a hard time understanding this and also the possibility of an Orthodox layman to be banned from the Eucharist or even get Excommunicated (Expelled).


A few points.

1. Being banned from the Eucharist and being excommunicated are essentially the same thing.

2. Such actions are not restricted to the laity.

3. Excommunication is very common and is effected by members who do not partake of Holy Communion of their own volition, sinfulness or laziness. We are all called to commune, not once, four times,  or monthly but each time that the Lord is offered to us for the healing of soul and body. We approach the Holy Chalice after we have repented of our sins, reconciled to our enemies and the Church, forgiven those who have wronged us, and have led the life we are called to in general: fasting, praying, etc.. in accordance with the standards of the Church. None of those make any of us worthy--even patriarchs,  but when we approach Christ even though we are unworthy, we must have tried to lead the life of one of His disciples. So, when we do not take Holy Communion for reasons that are not acceptable for one of His disciples, we excommunicate ourselves. What I do not understand is the mentality of those who take communion once or four times a year. Even with greater preparation, how can the Church excuse the unpreparedness for more frequent communion, not as a matter of exception but a matter of course?


1. I used excomunication with the meaning of expelled, even though that is not quite the Orthodox term, I wrote in the parentheses EXPELLED.

2. It doesn't sound good to me for someone to be able to get unorthodox and deprived of the divine blessings in the Orthodox Church through the judgement of priests/bishops. I mean who gives them the right to lose the souls of people and deny them the heavenly gifts?

3. The worthiness card is implausible and puts God under a black spot . Why would God harm someone because he did not do well in a magical rite?
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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2013, 01:31:46 PM »

There are plenty of theological justifications for closed communion, and previous posters have presented them well.  And in purely human terms, organizations certainly have the right to set requirements for membership.  For example, you can't just walk into a college lecture without enrolling first.  And it's not like the Church turns anyone down - she just wants them to be formed in the faith as well as possible.

When I invited a close relative who is not Orthodox (but is Christian) to go to the Liturgy and mentioned closed communion, he grew angry.  I explained why as well as I could, and he did come with me.  I wish I had thought to say to him that it wouldn't be cool for me to just walk into his Masonic lodge and expect to do whatever it is that they do.  (Not that I'd ever want to!)

An Orthodox friend advised me that, when inviting non-Orthodox to attend the Liturgy, to emphasize the things that they can do in the service, as well as to inform them of closed communion.  That puts it in a positive light.

If we look at this from the carnal pov, but the Church considers itself theandrical and theantropical.
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« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2013, 01:50:03 PM »

Quoting James above, "What 'makes sense' to you is hardly of consequence if it contradicts Scripture surely?

Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. 1 Corinthians 27 - 32

Quite clearly states that taking the Eucharist unworthily is harmful wouldn't you say?"

Scripture also states clearly "But let a man examine HIMSELF". My problem is with a church body, or a pastor/priest or the guy in the pew next to me examining me. Even Judas was offered the sop at the Last Supper,  "He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.  And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly." John 13:25-27. I know its a problem with authority but I have seen this abused to the point that Christians dont go to church anymore or simply start doubting God. That is where I am, I started doubting the idea that there is a physical church vs stand alone Christians going about their Biblical duty.

I may never join the Orthodox church, right now I see it as Christianity's last chance to prove to me there exists a true church. No church, no 'Christian' has been able to shake my trust in God, I trust no one but God. But this 'closed communion' business...you are hurting true Christians to the point we do not want to participate if you put up all these hoops and barriers (unbiblical) prior to receiving it. I commune with like minded Christians.



Nothing is quite clearly in the Bible. If it would it would not need exegesis and hermeneutics.

It doesn't specifically say that the reason why Satan entered into Judas had to do with the efficacy of the Last Supper communion. It may had have nothing to do with the bread and wine in themselves. And not all Gospels mention Judas communing.
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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2013, 01:55:15 PM »

The way I see it, one of the reasons might be because the EOC believes the Eucharist can have an negative effect if one receives it with unworthiness. So perhaps the EOC practices a closed communion because it thinks it can have an harming effect on those who are not of the same faith, worship and ecclesiastical life ? Or is it politics? A way of making people convert to the EOC? It would also be interesting to have a grasp on the OOC concerning this.

I think this is why. I was a little jealous when I first went to an Orthodox church and realized I couldn't take Communion. If, God willing, I am one day ready to make the conversion, that will be something I can do. I have to see that they are this way for a reason. I have to humble myself. Not easy, but worth it in the end.  Smiley

What were you referring when you said "I think this is why" ?

I am an EOC (Romanian Orthodox) , and I have a hard time understanding this and also the possibility of an Orthodox layman to be banned from the Eucharist or even get Excommunicated (Expelled).


A few points.

1. Being banned from the Eucharist and being excommunicated are essentially the same thing.

2. Such actions are not restricted to the laity.

3. Excommunication is very common and is effected by members who do not partake of Holy Communion of their own volition, sinfulness or laziness. We are all called to commune, not once, four times,  or monthly but each time that the Lord is offered to us for the healing of soul and body. We approach the Holy Chalice after we have repented of our sins, reconciled to our enemies and the Church, forgiven those who have wronged us, and have led the life we are called to in general: fasting, praying, etc.. in accordance with the standards of the Church. None of those make any of us worthy--even patriarchs,  but when we approach Christ even though we are unworthy, we must have tried to lead the life of one of His disciples. So, when we do not take Holy Communion for reasons that are not acceptable for one of His disciples, we excommunicate ourselves. What I do not understand is the mentality of those who take communion once or four times a year. Even with greater preparation, how can the Church excuse the unpreparedness for more frequent communion, not as a matter of exception but a matter of course?


1. I used excomunication with the meaning of expelled, even though that is not quite the Orthodox term, I wrote in the parentheses EXPELLED.

2. It doesn't sound good to me for someone to be able to get unorthodox and deprived of the divine blessings in the Orthodox Church through the judgement of priests/bishops. I mean who gives them the right to lose the souls of people and deny them the heavenly gifts?
What, then, did Jesus bestow upon His apostles when He granted them the authority to bind and to loose? "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven."

3. The worthiness card is implausible and puts God under a black spot . Why would God harm someone because he did not do well in a magical rite?
We're not talking about God harming someone for receiving Holy Communion in an unworthy manner, as if God is some vindictive judge just waiting to zap us for doing wrong. To us, Communion is as a holy fire. If one is prepared to receive that fire in a worthy manner, then one will find that fire a source of light and warmth, but if one is not so prepared, he will be burned.

BTW, the Eucharist is not a magical rite, and for you to insinuate that it is is a rather blasphemous thing to say, especially on a board devoted to discussing issues of importance to those converting to the Orthodox Christian faith.
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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2013, 01:59:39 PM »

The way I see it, one of the reasons might be because the EOC believes the Eucharist can have an negative effect if one receives it with unworthiness. So perhaps the EOC practices a closed communion because it thinks it can have an harming effect on those who are not of the same faith, worship and ecclesiastical life ? Or is it politics? A way of making people convert to the EOC? It would also be interesting to have a grasp on the OOC concerning this.

I think this is why. I was a little jealous when I first went to an Orthodox church and realized I couldn't take Communion. If, God willing, I am one day ready to make the conversion, that will be something I can do. I have to see that they are this way for a reason. I have to humble myself. Not easy, but worth it in the end.  Smiley

What were you referring when you said "I think this is why" ?

I am an EOC (Romanian Orthodox) , and I have a hard time understanding this and also the possibility of an Orthodox layman to be banned from the Eucharist or even get Excommunicated (Expelled).


A few points.

1. Being banned from the Eucharist and being excommunicated are essentially the same thing.

2. Such actions are not restricted to the laity.

3. Excommunication is very common and is effected by members who do not partake of Holy Communion of their own volition, sinfulness or laziness. We are all called to commune, not once, four times,  or monthly but each time that the Lord is offered to us for the healing of soul and body. We approach the Holy Chalice after we have repented of our sins, reconciled to our enemies and the Church, forgiven those who have wronged us, and have led the life we are called to in general: fasting, praying, etc.. in accordance with the standards of the Church. None of those make any of us worthy--even patriarchs,  but when we approach Christ even though we are unworthy, we must have tried to lead the life of one of His disciples. So, when we do not take Holy Communion for reasons that are not acceptable for one of His disciples, we excommunicate ourselves. What I do not understand is the mentality of those who take communion once or four times a year. Even with greater preparation, how can the Church excuse the unpreparedness for more frequent communion, not as a matter of exception but a matter of course?


1. I used excomunication with the meaning of expelled, even though that is not quite the Orthodox term, I wrote in the parentheses EXPELLED.

2. It doesn't sound good to me for someone to be able to get unorthodox and deprived of the divine blessings in the Orthodox Church through the judgement of priests/bishops. I mean who gives them the right to lose the souls of people and deny them the heavenly gifts?

3. The worthiness card is implausible and puts God under a black spot . Why would God harm someone because he did not do well in a magical rite?

All of your points would be valid if Holy Communion was a magical rite.

There is no magic in any of our Holy Mysteries where the clergy are magicians and we are the recipients of that magic. In all of our dealings with God, we are active participants.

If you examine the Divine Liturgy, it is not a rite performed by the clergy only for the benefit of the laity, but it is common work that is performed by everybody, clergy and laity alike for the life of the world. Indeed, there are very few prayers by the celebrant that are personal in nature. Most prayers are offered by the deacon and the priest for all of us. Those prayers are not completed until everybody gives assent by saying amen, Lord have mercy, to Thee oh Lord, or grant this oh Lord. During the Epiklesis, the priest calls upon the Holy Spirit to make the wine and bread the Blood and Body of the Lord and that prayer is also not complete until consent is given (either by the people or by the deacon speaking for the people.)

Each one of us is part of the Royal Priesthood of Christ: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy." 1 Peter 2:9-10.

So, the people of God are not mindless sheep or newborns who cannot help themselves and are thus subject to the care and mercy of the clergy. The people of God are not nominal, conditional or associate members of the Body of Christ; they are full members. A such, it is their responsibility to take care to not to separate themselves from the Body. The Church may recognize that one of the Body is no longer in communion with Her, but like the prodigal's father, She patiently and with love prays and awaits for the return of the prodigal. Accordingly, it is the hard heart of an unrepentant sinner that is responsible for any formal excommunication by the Church, which in this rare instance merely recognizes the state of affairs that was brought about by the excommunicated one.
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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2013, 02:08:11 PM »

The way I see it, one of the reasons might be because the EOC believes the Eucharist can have an negative effect if one receives it with unworthiness. So perhaps the EOC practices a closed communion because it thinks it can have an harming effect on those who are not of the same faith, worship and ecclesiastical life ? Or is it politics? A way of making people convert to the EOC? It would also be interesting to have a grasp on the OOC concerning this.

I think this is why. I was a little jealous when I first went to an Orthodox church and realized I couldn't take Communion. If, God willing, I am one day ready to make the conversion, that will be something I can do. I have to see that they are this way for a reason. I have to humble myself. Not easy, but worth it in the end.  Smiley

What were you referring when you said "I think this is why" ?

I am an EOC (Romanian Orthodox) , and I have a hard time understanding this and also the possibility of an Orthodox layman to be banned from the Eucharist or even get Excommunicated (Expelled).


A few points.

1. Being banned from the Eucharist and being excommunicated are essentially the same thing.

2. Such actions are not restricted to the laity.

3. Excommunication is very common and is effected by members who do not partake of Holy Communion of their own volition, sinfulness or laziness. We are all called to commune, not once, four times,  or monthly but each time that the Lord is offered to us for the healing of soul and body. We approach the Holy Chalice after we have repented of our sins, reconciled to our enemies and the Church, forgiven those who have wronged us, and have led the life we are called to in general: fasting, praying, etc.. in accordance with the standards of the Church. None of those make any of us worthy--even patriarchs,  but when we approach Christ even though we are unworthy, we must have tried to lead the life of one of His disciples. So, when we do not take Holy Communion for reasons that are not acceptable for one of His disciples, we excommunicate ourselves. What I do not understand is the mentality of those who take communion once or four times a year. Even with greater preparation, how can the Church excuse the unpreparedness for more frequent communion, not as a matter of exception but a matter of course?


1. I used excomunication with the meaning of expelled, even though that is not quite the Orthodox term, I wrote in the parentheses EXPELLED.

2. It doesn't sound good to me for someone to be able to get unorthodox and deprived of the divine blessings in the Orthodox Church through the judgement of priests/bishops. I mean who gives them the right to lose the souls of people and deny them the heavenly gifts?
What, then, did Jesus bestow upon His apostles when He granted them the authority to bind and to loose? "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven."

To lose people's souls and send them to hell?

Quote
3. The worthiness card is implausible and puts God under a black spot . Why would God harm someone because he did not do well in a magical rite?
We're not talking about God harming someone for receiving Holy Communion in an unworthy manner, as if God is some vindictive judge just waiting to zap us for doing wrong. To us, Communion is as a holy fire. If one is prepared to receive that fire in a worthy manner, then one will find that fire a source of light and warmth, but if one is not so prepared, he will be burned.

BTW, the Eucharist is not a magical rite, and for you to insinuate that it is is a rather blasphemous thing to say, especially on a board devoted to discussing issues of importance to those converting to the Orthodox Christian faith.

That is exactly what your "holy fire" theory supports/says . Being that God is a vindictive judge. Why would God give communion an harming effect( to make people be burned ) if he could make communion  uneffectual for those who partake it inappropriately ? The saying goes "If you can't do good at least do no harm" ..  
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« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2013, 02:42:26 PM »

The way I see it, one of the reasons might be because the EOC believes the Eucharist can have an negative effect if one receives it with unworthiness. So perhaps the EOC practices a closed communion because it thinks it can have an harming effect on those who are not of the same faith, worship and ecclesiastical life ? Or is it politics? A way of making people convert to the EOC? It would also be interesting to have a grasp on the OOC concerning this.

I think this is why. I was a little jealous when I first went to an Orthodox church and realized I couldn't take Communion. If, God willing, I am one day ready to make the conversion, that will be something I can do. I have to see that they are this way for a reason. I have to humble myself. Not easy, but worth it in the end.  Smiley

What were you referring when you said "I think this is why" ?

I am an EOC (Romanian Orthodox) , and I have a hard time understanding this and also the possibility of an Orthodox layman to be banned from the Eucharist or even get Excommunicated (Expelled).


A few points.

1. Being banned from the Eucharist and being excommunicated are essentially the same thing.

2. Such actions are not restricted to the laity.

3. Excommunication is very common and is effected by members who do not partake of Holy Communion of their own volition, sinfulness or laziness. We are all called to commune, not once, four times,  or monthly but each time that the Lord is offered to us for the healing of soul and body. We approach the Holy Chalice after we have repented of our sins, reconciled to our enemies and the Church, forgiven those who have wronged us, and have led the life we are called to in general: fasting, praying, etc.. in accordance with the standards of the Church. None of those make any of us worthy--even patriarchs,  but when we approach Christ even though we are unworthy, we must have tried to lead the life of one of His disciples. So, when we do not take Holy Communion for reasons that are not acceptable for one of His disciples, we excommunicate ourselves. What I do not understand is the mentality of those who take communion once or four times a year. Even with greater preparation, how can the Church excuse the unpreparedness for more frequent communion, not as a matter of exception but a matter of course?


1. I used excomunication with the meaning of expelled, even though that is not quite the Orthodox term, I wrote in the parentheses EXPELLED.

2. It doesn't sound good to me for someone to be able to get unorthodox and deprived of the divine blessings in the Orthodox Church through the judgement of priests/bishops. I mean who gives them the right to lose the souls of people and deny them the heavenly gifts?
What, then, did Jesus bestow upon His apostles when He granted them the authority to bind and to loose? "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven."

To lose people's souls and send them to hell?

Quote
3. The worthiness card is implausible and puts God under a black spot . Why would God harm someone because he did not do well in a magical rite?
We're not talking about God harming someone for receiving Holy Communion in an unworthy manner, as if God is some vindictive judge just waiting to zap us for doing wrong. To us, Communion is as a holy fire. If one is prepared to receive that fire in a worthy manner, then one will find that fire a source of light and warmth, but if one is not so prepared, he will be burned.

BTW, the Eucharist is not a magical rite, and for you to insinuate that it is is a rather blasphemous thing to say, especially on a board devoted to discussing issues of importance to those converting to the Orthodox Christian faith.

That is exactly what your "holy fire" theory supports/says . Being that God is a vindictive judge. Why would God give communion an harming effect( to make people be burned ) if he could make communion  uneffectual for those who partake it inappropriately ? The saying goes "If you can't do good at least do no harm" ..  

Dear Virtual Paradise. I pray that I do not hurt your feelings by observing that instead of an Orthodox Christian, you write as if you are a catechumen, who knows a little bit about the Holy Orthodox Church, but is beset with doubts and objections, not only to the Church but about God Himself.

You have said that you are Romanian Orthodox; are you presently a communicant in any Orthodox church? I am asking this question in accordance with our Forum policies, so please consider my query to be an official request. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2013, 02:46:13 PM »

The way I see it, one of the reasons might be because the EOC believes the Eucharist can have an negative effect if one receives it with unworthiness. So perhaps the EOC practices a closed communion because it thinks it can have an harming effect on those who are not of the same faith, worship and ecclesiastical life ? Or is it politics? A way of making people convert to the EOC? It would also be interesting to have a grasp on the OOC concerning this.

I think this is why. I was a little jealous when I first went to an Orthodox church and realized I couldn't take Communion. If, God willing, I am one day ready to make the conversion, that will be something I can do. I have to see that they are this way for a reason. I have to humble myself. Not easy, but worth it in the end.  Smiley

What were you referring when you said "I think this is why" ?

I am an EOC (Romanian Orthodox) , and I have a hard time understanding this and also the possibility of an Orthodox layman to be banned from the Eucharist or even get Excommunicated (Expelled).


A few points.

1. Being banned from the Eucharist and being excommunicated are essentially the same thing.

2. Such actions are not restricted to the laity.

3. Excommunication is very common and is effected by members who do not partake of Holy Communion of their own volition, sinfulness or laziness. We are all called to commune, not once, four times,  or monthly but each time that the Lord is offered to us for the healing of soul and body. We approach the Holy Chalice after we have repented of our sins, reconciled to our enemies and the Church, forgiven those who have wronged us, and have led the life we are called to in general: fasting, praying, etc.. in accordance with the standards of the Church. None of those make any of us worthy--even patriarchs,  but when we approach Christ even though we are unworthy, we must have tried to lead the life of one of His disciples. So, when we do not take Holy Communion for reasons that are not acceptable for one of His disciples, we excommunicate ourselves. What I do not understand is the mentality of those who take communion once or four times a year. Even with greater preparation, how can the Church excuse the unpreparedness for more frequent communion, not as a matter of exception but a matter of course?


1. I used excomunication with the meaning of expelled, even though that is not quite the Orthodox term, I wrote in the parentheses EXPELLED.

2. It doesn't sound good to me for someone to be able to get unorthodox and deprived of the divine blessings in the Orthodox Church through the judgement of priests/bishops. I mean who gives them the right to lose the souls of people and deny them the heavenly gifts?
What, then, did Jesus bestow upon His apostles when He granted them the authority to bind and to loose? "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven."

To lose people's souls and send them to hell?

Quote
3. The worthiness card is implausible and puts God under a black spot . Why would God harm someone because he did not do well in a magical rite?
We're not talking about God harming someone for receiving Holy Communion in an unworthy manner, as if God is some vindictive judge just waiting to zap us for doing wrong. To us, Communion is as a holy fire. If one is prepared to receive that fire in a worthy manner, then one will find that fire a source of light and warmth, but if one is not so prepared, he will be burned.

BTW, the Eucharist is not a magical rite, and for you to insinuate that it is is a rather blasphemous thing to say, especially on a board devoted to discussing issues of importance to those converting to the Orthodox Christian faith.

That is exactly what your "holy fire" theory supports/says . Being that God is a vindictive judge. Why would God give communion an harming effect( to make people be burned ) if he could make communion  uneffectual for those who partake it inappropriately ? The saying goes "If you can't do good at least do no harm" ..  

Dear Virtual Paradise. I pray that I do not hurt your feelings by observing that instead of an Orthodox Christian, you write as if you are a catechumen, who knows a little bit about the Holy Orthodox Church, but is beset with doubts and objections, not only to the Church but about God Himself.

You have said that you are Romanian Orthodox; are you presently a communicant in any Orthodox church? I am asking this question in accordance with our Forum policies, so please consider my query to be an official request. Thanks, Carl Kraeff

Huh?
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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2013, 03:00:19 PM »

Virtual Paradise - Are you Orthodox?  Many of the questions you ask seem to come from a very Protestant oriented background.

As for closed communion, I am a catechumen and I try to look at my inability to commune as an opportunity to grow in humility.  It can be quite difficult, I was a deacon in my former church and was in charge of distributing the elements and now I cannot even partake, but the Church has a very good reason for that.  When handling the very Body and Blood of Christ, you can never take too many precautions!  I would rather watch others commune in the Orthodox Church than partake in a "symbolic" ritual in another church that has no real significance.
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« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2013, 03:04:10 PM »

TheTrisagion , I already said I am Orthodox. It seems you are excommunicated and not that much of an Orthodox. Next question?
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« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2013, 03:20:41 PM »

TheTrisagion , I already said I am Orthodox. It seems you are excommunicated and not that much of an Orthodox. Next question?

I suppose it is my turn to say: Huh?  I already said I was a catechumen, so no, I'm not excommunicated, neither am I a full fledged Orthodox Christian as I have not been chrismated yet.  I mean no offense, is English perhaps a secondary language for you?  I'm wondering if some of the words you are using are somehow getting lost in translation and we are just misunderstanding one another.
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« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2013, 05:16:24 PM »

The way I see it, one of the reasons might be because the EOC believes the Eucharist can have an negative effect if one receives it with unworthiness. So perhaps the EOC practices a closed communion because it thinks it can have an harming effect on those who are not of the same faith, worship and ecclesiastical life ? Or is it politics? A way of making people convert to the EOC? It would also be interesting to have a grasp on the OOC concerning this.

I think this is why. I was a little jealous when I first went to an Orthodox church and realized I couldn't take Communion. If, God willing, I am one day ready to make the conversion, that will be something I can do. I have to see that they are this way for a reason. I have to humble myself. Not easy, but worth it in the end.  Smiley

What were you referring when you said "I think this is why" ?

I am an EOC (Romanian Orthodox) , and I have a hard time understanding this and also the possibility of an Orthodox layman to be banned from the Eucharist or even get Excommunicated (Expelled).


A few points.

1. Being banned from the Eucharist and being excommunicated are essentially the same thing.

2. Such actions are not restricted to the laity.

3. Excommunication is very common and is effected by members who do not partake of Holy Communion of their own volition, sinfulness or laziness. We are all called to commune, not once, four times,  or monthly but each time that the Lord is offered to us for the healing of soul and body. We approach the Holy Chalice after we have repented of our sins, reconciled to our enemies and the Church, forgiven those who have wronged us, and have led the life we are called to in general: fasting, praying, etc.. in accordance with the standards of the Church. None of those make any of us worthy--even patriarchs,  but when we approach Christ even though we are unworthy, we must have tried to lead the life of one of His disciples. So, when we do not take Holy Communion for reasons that are not acceptable for one of His disciples, we excommunicate ourselves. What I do not understand is the mentality of those who take communion once or four times a year. Even with greater preparation, how can the Church excuse the unpreparedness for more frequent communion, not as a matter of exception but a matter of course?


1. I used excomunication with the meaning of expelled, even though that is not quite the Orthodox term, I wrote in the parentheses EXPELLED.

2. It doesn't sound good to me for someone to be able to get unorthodox and deprived of the divine blessings in the Orthodox Church through the judgement of priests/bishops. I mean who gives them the right to lose the souls of people and deny them the heavenly gifts?
What, then, did Jesus bestow upon His apostles when He granted them the authority to bind and to loose? "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven."

To lose people's souls and send them to hell?

Quote
3. The worthiness card is implausible and puts God under a black spot . Why would God harm someone because he did not do well in a magical rite?
We're not talking about God harming someone for receiving Holy Communion in an unworthy manner, as if God is some vindictive judge just waiting to zap us for doing wrong. To us, Communion is as a holy fire. If one is prepared to receive that fire in a worthy manner, then one will find that fire a source of light and warmth, but if one is not so prepared, he will be burned.

BTW, the Eucharist is not a magical rite, and for you to insinuate that it is is a rather blasphemous thing to say, especially on a board devoted to discussing issues of importance to those converting to the Orthodox Christian faith.

That is exactly what your "holy fire" theory supports/says . Being that God is a vindictive judge. Why would God give communion an harming effect( to make people be burned ) if he could make communion  uneffectual for those who partake it inappropriately ? The saying goes "If you can't do good at least do no harm" ..  

Dear Virtual Paradise. I pray that I do not hurt your feelings by observing that instead of an Orthodox Christian, you write as if you are a catechumen, who knows a little bit about the Holy Orthodox Church, but is beset with doubts and objections, not only to the Church but about God Himself.

You have said that you are Romanian Orthodox; are you presently a communicant in any Orthodox church? I am asking this question in accordance with our Forum policies, so please consider my query to be an official request. Thanks, Carl Kraeff

Huh?

You have 24 hours to comply with my request, which was based on the following rule:

"* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency.  These requests are made in order to facilitate open and honest discussion, without knowingly or unknowingly propagating false information.  Do not be offended by such requests, but do make all haste in fulfilling them, in order to allow productive and edifying discussion to continue."

Thank you, Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2013, 05:57:43 PM »

Funny how converts, proselytes, catechumens, people who are part of a Church who is no older than a few decades get to tell those who have always been Orthodox and part of a 2000 years Church they are not Orthodox. Carl Kraeff, how many Orthodox people do you really know? I know houndreds and perhaps thousands. My city has tens of thousands of Orthodox an probably over 20 Orthodox Churches, excluding the other localities from the Metropola.

Not sure what your request is but hey.. I have been born Orthodox, I am from Arad. My Bishop is Timotei Seviciu.I attend the Cathedral of Holy Trinity in Arad, with the patron St. Nicholas. I also attend the Church of Martyrs vis-a-vis of my block. Answered in 1 min after I saw your claim more clear, even though i'm not sure what you specific request was, but I think this settles more than you dreamed. Anything else, CONVERT?

The request with which you are arguing is a formal request from a moderator. If you don't like his request, then you need to take that up with him in private messages. Publicly disputing, questioning, or otherwise showing contempt for moderatorial actions is not tolerated on this forum and will draw harsher penalties than this if you continue.

This warning is set to last for three weeks. If you think it wrong, please appeal it to me via private message. If you use this thread or on any publicly viewable part of this forum to dispute this warning, you will be placed immediately on post moderation, where your posting privileges will actually be restricted. I hope I'm making myself clear what the proper channels are for arguing with a moderatorial action.

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« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2013, 05:59:32 PM »

Anything else, CONVERT?

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) is not a convert.
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« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2013, 06:02:07 PM »

Anything else, CONVERT?

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) is not a convert.

Are you a convert?
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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2013, 06:04:01 PM »

Anything else, CONVERT?

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) is not a convert.

Are you a convert?

I was baptised when I was 2-day-old.
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« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2013, 06:05:42 PM »

Anything else, CONVERT?

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) is not a convert.

Are you a convert?

I was baptised when I was 2-day-old.

as a hindu or what?

AFAIK , Orthodox baptism are after atleast 40 days, except in cases of urgency when the infant might die.
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« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2013, 06:18:08 PM »

PetertheAleut ,

He should of than contact me privately he did so publicly and I responded publicly. Not my fault, his. And aren't you outside your assigned jurisdiction in here?  
 Warning changed into moderation for the very same issue - MK.
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« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2013, 06:23:43 PM »

Anything else, CONVERT?

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) is not a convert.

Are you a convert?

I was baptised when I was 2-day-old.

as a hindu or what?

AFAIK , Orthodox baptism are after atleast 40 days, except in cases of urgency when the infant might die.

I weighted 1.55 kg. It was very likely I could die. My twinbother did 5 days after the baptism. Do you have some more questions?

And most people here baptise before the 40 days.
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« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2013, 06:48:30 PM »


I was baptized on day 3 of life.   angel  There was also a fear I might die, as I came very early.

I think being baptized early was great!!!
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« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2013, 06:57:47 PM »

I was baptized when I was about two and a half months old. Smiley Another point in favor of infant baptism, though it may not be the most theologically deep: babies are cute.
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« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2013, 07:00:17 PM »


I was baptized on day 3 of life.   angel  There was also a fear I might die, as I came very early.

I think being baptized early was great!!!

My son, whose birthday is today, was baptized and confirmed (we were still RCs then) on the morning of day 5.  He went to surgery that afternoon for intestinal malrotation.

My daughter was baptized, chrismated, communed on day 39 in the UGCC (it was a Sunday).
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 07:00:38 PM by choy » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2013, 08:08:12 PM »

Funny how converts, proselytes, catechumens, people who are part of a Church who is no older than a few decades get to tell those who have always been Orthodox and part of a 2000 years Church they are not Orthodox. Carl Kraeff, how many Orthodox people do you really know? I know houndreds and perhaps thousands. My city has tens of thousands of Orthodox an probably over 20 Orthodox Churches, excluding the other localities from the Metropola.

Not sure what your request is but hey.. I have been born Orthodox, I am from Arad. My Bishop is Timotei Seviciu.I attend the Cathedral of Holy Trinity in Arad, with the patron St. Nicholas. I also attend the Church of Martyrs vis-a-vis of my block. Answered in 1 min after I saw your claim more clear, even though i'm not sure what you specific request was, but I think this settles more than you dreamed. Anything else, CONVERT?
Glad to see that you think that converts are little better than pieces of trash. What do you think of us inquirers and catechumens, then?
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« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2013, 08:31:06 PM »

reposted here, now that I know this thread exists.


Funny how converts, proselytes, catechumens, people who are part of a Church who is no older than a few decades get to tell those who have always been Orthodox and part of a 2000 years Church they are not Orthodox. Carl Kraeff, how many Orthodox people do you really know? I know houndreds and perhaps thousands. My city has tens of thousands of Orthodox an probably over 20 Orthodox Churches, excluding the other localities from the Metropola.

Not sure what your request is but hey.. I have been born Orthodox, I am from Arad. My Bishop is Timotei Seviciu.I attend the Cathedral of Holy Trinity in Arad, with the patron St. Nicholas. I also attend the Church of Martyrs vis-a-vis of my block. Answered in 1 min after I saw your claim more clear, even though i'm not sure what you specific request was, but I think this settles more than you dreamed. Anything else, CONVERT?

The request with which you are arguing is a formal request from a moderator. If you don't like his request, then you need to take that up with him in private messages. Publicly disputing, questioning, or otherwise showing contempt for moderatorial actions is not tolerated on this forum and will draw harsher penalties than this if you continue.

This warning is set to last for three weeks. If you think it wrong, please appeal it to me via private message. If you use this thread or on any publicly viewable part of this forum to dispute this warning, you will be placed immediately on post moderation, where your posting privileges will actually be restricted. I hope I'm making myself clear what the proper channels are for arguing with a moderatorial action.

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Why do you insist on using convert of an insult, to be hurled against your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. We are all members of the same Church, THE Church. Yes I was baptized only just over three months ago, but I am JUST as much Orthodox as anyone who was baptized in their youth. None of us are born Orthodox, we are all baptized after our births, be it a few days, 40 days, or years, in my case.

I am an Orthodox Christian, the same as you are. I did not grow up in the life of the Church, true, I grew up in the RCC. I do not have many Orthodox friends, or know many, if at all, whom i do not go to church with.


To God, we are all the same, forwe have all been baptized and Christmated, and we all recieve Holy Communion, and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. THe use of the word convert as an insult if disgraceful, insulting, childish, and unbecoming of an Orthodox Christian.
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« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2013, 08:37:23 PM »

Funny how converts, proselytes, catechumens, people who are part of a Church who is no older than a few decades get to tell those who have always been Orthodox and part of a 2000 years Church they are not Orthodox. Carl Kraeff, how many Orthodox people do you really know? I know houndreds and perhaps thousands. My city has tens of thousands of Orthodox an probably over 20 Orthodox Churches, excluding the other localities from the Metropola.

Not sure what your request is but hey.. I have been born Orthodox, I am from Arad. My Bishop is Timotei Seviciu.I attend the Cathedral of Holy Trinity in Arad, with the patron St. Nicholas. I also attend the Church of Martyrs vis-a-vis of my block. Answered in 1 min after I saw your claim more clear, even though i'm not sure what you specific request was, but I think this settles more than you dreamed. Anything else, CONVERT?
Glad to see that you think that converts are little better than pieces of trash. What do you think of us inquirers and catechumens, then?
A newsflash for virtual: we are all converts.  As Tertullian observed, Christians are not born, they are made.
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« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2013, 09:25:28 PM »

The saints that are commemorated on March 19th (today) are all martyrs. One was likely a cradle who apostatized but returned because of his mother's admonition: Saint Pancharius. The reflection by the author of the Prologue of Ohrid, St. Nikolai Velimirovich, concludes with: "And so the blessed mother of Pancharius brought about a new birth for her son, a spiritual birth more important than the first, physical birth." The others were mostly converts: Holy Martyrs Chrysanthus and Daria and the others with them, among whom were Diodorus the priest and Marianus the deacon--the only ones who may have been cradle.

See http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/my.html
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 09:26:03 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2013, 06:00:38 AM »

Funny how converts, proselytes, catechumens, people who are part of a Church who is no older than a few decades get to tell those who have always been Orthodox and part of a 2000 years Church they are not Orthodox. Carl Kraeff, how many Orthodox people do you really know? I know houndreds and perhaps thousands. My city has tens of thousands of Orthodox an probably over 20 Orthodox Churches, excluding the other localities from the Metropola.

Not sure what your request is but hey.. I have been born Orthodox, I am from Arad. My Bishop is Timotei Seviciu.I attend the Cathedral of Holy Trinity in Arad, with the patron St. Nicholas. I also attend the Church of Martyrs vis-a-vis of my block. Answered in 1 min after I saw your claim more clear, even though i'm not sure what you specific request was, but I think this settles more than you dreamed. Anything else, CONVERT?
Glad to see that you think that converts are little better than pieces of trash. What do you think of us inquirers and catechumens, then?
A newsflash for virtual: we are all converts.  As Tertullian observed, Christians are not born, they are made.

Virtual Paradise seems to have read to much protestant books on Once saved always saved and Justification as a one time event, so he thinks that he is more Orthodox than the convert. Forgetting that the purpose of the Church is the reconciliation with God by Theosis. And that to have lived in Arad with 20 Orthodox Churches does not make him a better Orthodox.

St Contantine was baptised on just before his death, he is a Saint, many have been baptised when infants, but are not.
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« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2013, 10:01:41 PM »

For me personally there is no difference between cradle and converts, we are the same...the only important thing is to follow the Apostolic faith (aka Orthodox Christianity) correctly...May Christ help us resolve our differences...
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« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2013, 12:10:37 AM »

Me, I was baptized on day 7, and was in front of the entire church as naked as the day I was born (6 days prior LOL).

What's odd is I seriously think I remember it - barely.    Remember the priests cuffs and seeing my grandmother watching.
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« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2013, 09:56:12 PM »

Funny how converts, proselytes, catechumens, people who are part of a Church who is no older than a few decades get to tell those who have always been Orthodox and part of a 2000 years Church they are not Orthodox. Carl Kraeff, how many Orthodox people do you really know? I know houndreds and perhaps thousands. My city has tens of thousands of Orthodox an probably over 20 Orthodox Churches, excluding the other localities from the Metropola.

Not sure what your request is but hey.. I have been born Orthodox, I am from Arad. My Bishop is Timotei Seviciu.I attend the Cathedral of Holy Trinity in Arad, with the patron St. Nicholas. I also attend the Church of Martyrs vis-a-vis of my block. Answered in 1 min after I saw your claim more clear, even though i'm not sure what you specific request was, but I think this settles more than you dreamed. Anything else, CONVERT?

Why do you insist on using convert of an insult, to be hurled against your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

Pretty weird, if you ask me.

It's like when people are complaining about sheep-stealing, and someone chimes in "Well, I wouldn't worry. Your sheep aren't worth stealing."

P.S. Then again, I suppose it could always be anti-western-ism rearing its ugly head.
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« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2013, 10:26:52 PM »

I meant to say that I think closed Communion is ultimately for the spiritual protection of those who may otherwise partake inappropriately. Seen that way, it is a good thing. Sorry if I was not clear.

It doesn't make sense to me. It seams unreasonable and immoral. Why not a negative effect for baptism also, or christmation, or the rest of the sacraments if partaken inappropriately/unworthy ?

It is about communion, all of them.  It is not about unworthiness it is about someone becoming one of us, and frankly the Eucharist is about unity, wholeness, intimacy of the whole man, Christ Jesus and His Body the Church.   Those outside, who don't confess the faith have chosen not to be in communion.
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« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2013, 10:41:35 PM »

For me personally there is no difference between cradle and converts, we are the same...the only important thing is to follow the Apostolic faith (aka Orthodox Christianity) correctly...May Christ help us resolve our differences...

Amen!
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« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2013, 11:24:41 PM »

Me, I was baptized on day 7, and was in front of the entire church as naked as the day I was born (6 days prior LOL).

What's odd is I seriously think I remember it - barely.    Remember the priests cuffs and seeing my grandmother watching.

Glad to see you still acknowledge your Orthodox baptism.  Smiley
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