Author Topic: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion  (Read 4796 times)

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Offline JamesR

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Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« on: March 17, 2013, 07:38:12 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?
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Offline mike

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2013, 07:42:55 PM »
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Offline SolEX01

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2013, 04:25:35 AM »
James, I don't know what to say about the Patriarch....

But here is a post that I made which I quoted 3 VERY early Christians (one the EO church considers a saint) who all speak of abortion as MURDER. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45901.msg898964.html#msg898964

If the Patriarch in ANY way is supporting abortion then I do believe he is out of line with the foundation of early Christian thinking.... (I am not positive that's what he's implying).   The lingo used is a bit unclear to me too.
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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2013, 12:23:20 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

Oy.  Vey.   :(
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Offline choy

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2013, 12:37:43 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

Did he declare this Ex Cathedra?


Oh wait....  ;)

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2013, 08:08:17 PM »
It's just another overly-diplomatic and meaningless statement. I'm not sure why our bishops make so many of them.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2013, 08:10:09 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception . . . .

Source

. . . .

Thoughts?

No.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2013, 08:23:21 PM »
It's just another overly-diplomatic and meaningless statement. I'm not sure why our bishops make so many of them.

No courage?  Maybe some of them are afraid that if they make people unhappy, they will stop sending money and they will have to start sewing tents like the Apostle.  Possibly even be beheaded.  Read Luke 18: 1-8.  The murdered unborn cry continuously to the Father.  I would hate to be one of the politically correct when the Son returns.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Maria

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2013, 09:25:05 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

The EP is dead wrong here.
There is no excuse for killing the unborn. Abortion is murder.

Even in an ectopic pregnancy, where the embryo has implanted itself in the walls of the Fallopian tube, there is still a chance that the life of that embryo can be saved. Daily, we are developing new technology and methods to save lives. 
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Offline William

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2013, 09:39:40 PM »
It's just another overly-diplomatic and meaningless statement. I'm not sure why our bishops make so many of them.

No courage?  Maybe some of them are afraid that if they make people unhappy, they will stop sending money and they will have to start sewing tents like the Apostle.  Possibly even be beheaded.  Read Luke 18: 1-8.  The murdered unborn cry continuously to the Father.  I would hate to be one of the politically correct when the Son returns.

That is why I admire some fundamentalist groups no matter how wrong they are.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2013, 12:00:28 AM »
I think it's a matter of matching the teaching to the audience. When a hierarch such as the EP says something, he may be speaking to a particular group of people, but this may not be clearly defined, and it's easy to take phrases out of context--or even entire actions, for that matter. Being a chief bishop for many years, he has a different sort of role than that of a spiritual father or a diocesan bishop.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Punch

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2013, 01:06:22 AM »
I think it's a matter of matching the teaching to the audience. When a hierarch such as the EP says something, he may be speaking to a particular group of people, but this may not be clearly defined, and it's easy to take phrases out of context--or even entire actions, for that matter. Being a chief bishop for many years, he has a different sort of role than that of a spiritual father or a diocesan bishop.

I thought that telling people what they want to hear is a form of dishonesty.  Shouldn't Truth be Truth whatever the audience?
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline stanley123

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2013, 01:19:39 AM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

The EP is dead wrong here.
There is no excuse for killing the unborn. Abortion is murder.

Even in an ectopic pregnancy, where the embryo has implanted itself in the walls of the Fallopian tube, there is still a chance that the life of that embryo can be saved. Daily, we are developing new technology and methods to save lives. 
Perhaps he is saying that as with any sin, we should not set ourselves up as judge and jury of a person who has committed that sin, even one as gravely wrong as abortion. It is for God to judge the person, and not us.

Offline Maria

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2013, 01:57:38 AM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

The EP is dead wrong here.
There is no excuse for killing the unborn. Abortion is murder.

Even in an ectopic pregnancy, where the embryo has implanted itself in the walls of the Fallopian tube, there is still a chance that the life of that embryo can be saved. Daily, we are developing new technology and methods to save lives. 
Perhaps he is saying that as with any sin, we should not set ourselves up as judge and jury of a person who has committed that sin, even one as gravely wrong as abortion. It is for God to judge the person, and not us.

The EP's statement was sufficient to drive away some Orthodox inquirers and catechumens who were originally Roman Catholic. They left Orthodoxy and joined some sedevacantist group.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2013, 03:40:41 AM »
I think it's a matter of matching the teaching to the audience. When a hierarch such as the EP says something, he may be speaking to a particular group of people, but this may not be clearly defined, and it's easy to take phrases out of context--or even entire actions, for that matter. Being a chief bishop for many years, he has a different sort of role than that of a spiritual father or a diocesan bishop.

I thought that telling people what they want to hear is a form of dishonesty.  Shouldn't Truth be Truth whatever the audience?

One would assume that after being married for many years you had learnt that sometimes Truth must be explained in the way that audience won't misunderstand it. :police:
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2013, 05:03:50 AM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

Well, if I were you I would focus on this part:

Quote
the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2013, 05:19:44 AM »
It's just another overly-diplomatic and meaningless statement. I'm not sure why our bishops make so many of them.

No courage?  Maybe some of them are afraid that if they make people unhappy, they will stop sending money and they will have to start sewing tents like the Apostle.  Possibly even be beheaded.  Read Luke 18: 1-8.  The murdered unborn cry continuously to the Father.  I would hate to be one of the politically correct when the Son returns.


Amen to that.


Selam
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2013, 05:20:58 AM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

The EP is dead wrong here.
There is no excuse for killing the unborn. Abortion is murder.

Even in an ectopic pregnancy, where the embryo has implanted itself in the walls of the Fallopian tube, there is still a chance that the life of that embryo can be saved. Daily, we are developing new technology and methods to save lives. 


Agreed Maria. The statement is very disturbing to me.



Selam
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2013, 05:25:13 AM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life
and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?


What is especially disturbing is the "generally speaking" part. The Church does not "generally" respect human life, the Church unequivocally respects human life. I don't like to criticize Orthodox hierarchy, but I find this statement very unfortunate and problematic on a number of levels.

My prayers for the Ecumenical Patriarch.


"Lord have mercy."


BTW, can anyone provide another link to the entire comment? The link won't work on my computer for some reason.


Selam
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 05:27:37 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2013, 09:07:49 AM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

Well, if I were you I would focus on this part:

Quote
the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception

I would too, since it isn't true. See my post above.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2013, 10:09:08 AM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

I remember this statement that priests aren't going to enter the bedroom. It dates from the 1960s. I seem to remember it was about contraception. Perhaps Patriarch Bartholomew was a spokesperson for Patriarch Athenogoras at the time. I do not know. Having read the San Francisco Chronicle from the time I learned to read (comics mostly) to when I left the Bay Area in 1980, I recommend taking the quote from this paper with more than a grain of salt.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2013, 10:46:54 AM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

The EP is dead wrong here.
There is no excuse for killing the unborn. Abortion is murder.

Even in an ectopic pregnancy, where the embryo has implanted itself in the walls of the Fallopian tube, there is still a chance that the life of that embryo can be saved. Daily, we are developing new technology and methods to save lives. 
Perhaps he is saying that as with any sin, we should not set ourselves up as judge and jury of a person who has committed that sin, even one as gravely wrong as abortion. It is for God to judge the person, and not us.

So, we're not to say that a sin is a sin?
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2013, 10:59:26 AM »
I think that abortion can be justified in situations that murder is also justified.  Like for example... oh wait. Nevermind.  ;)
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Offline Punch

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2013, 11:06:09 AM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

The EP is dead wrong here.
There is no excuse for killing the unborn. Abortion is murder.

Even in an ectopic pregnancy, where the embryo has implanted itself in the walls of the Fallopian tube, there is still a chance that the life of that embryo can be saved. Daily, we are developing new technology and methods to save lives. 
Perhaps he is saying that as with any sin, we should not set ourselves up as judge and jury of a person who has committed that sin, even one as gravely wrong as abortion. It is for God to judge the person, and not us.

The EP's statement was sufficient to drive away some Orthodox inquirers and catechumens who were originally Roman Catholic. They left Orthodoxy and joined some sedevacantist group.

I have to say that you are correct.  And it would go beyond just the Roman Catholics.  If I would have read that statement at the time that I was having doubts about my former denomination (WELS Lutheran) and was searching for the True Church, I would never have set foot in an Orthodox Church.   
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Punch

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2013, 11:08:47 AM »
I think it's a matter of matching the teaching to the audience. When a hierarch such as the EP says something, he may be speaking to a particular group of people, but this may not be clearly defined, and it's easy to take phrases out of context--or even entire actions, for that matter. Being a chief bishop for many years, he has a different sort of role than that of a spiritual father or a diocesan bishop.

I thought that telling people what they want to hear is a form of dishonesty.  Shouldn't Truth be Truth whatever the audience?

One would assume that after being married for many years you had learnt that sometimes Truth must be explained in the way that audience won't misunderstand it. :police:

Been married 32 years, and still stand by what I wrote above.  We are talking about murder here, not whether or not a pair of pants make her butt look big.  And even then, my wife learned years ago not to ask my opinion if she is not ready to hear it.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2013, 12:05:56 PM »
The EP have his opinion. I couldnt care less. Now if he uses his position to try and change what the Church teaches........
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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2013, 01:07:41 PM »
The EP have his opinion. I couldnt care less. Now if he uses his position to try and change what the Church teaches........

......then it might be time to let JamesR anathematize him.
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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2013, 01:10:04 PM »
The EP have his opinion. I couldnt care less. Now if he uses his position to try and change what the Church teaches........

......then it might be time to let JamesR anathematize him.
JamesR...the one man synod.
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Offline choy

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2013, 01:33:27 PM »
Maybe this is taken out of context?  Maybe he is talking about ectopic pregnancies?

Offline J Michael

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2013, 01:45:25 PM »
Maybe this is taken out of context?  Maybe he is talking about ectopic pregnancies?

Well, the "Source" is dated 1996, and it quotes an article from 1990 from the S.F.Chronicle.  Nowhere in what is quoted is the word "ectopic" used, or even inferred or implied.  So...maybe not.

But....maybe since then the EP has changed his mind about it.  Oh...wait....CHANGE?  IN ORTHODOXY?? IS OUTRAGE!!!   ;D 







(Before anybody gets their knickers in a twist, I do know that the EP and Orthodoxy are not identical.)
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Offline choy

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2013, 01:50:14 PM »
Maybe this is taken out of context?  Maybe he is talking about ectopic pregnancies?

Well, the "Source" is dated 1996, and it quotes an article from 1990 from the S.F.Chronicle.  Nowhere in what is quoted is the word "ectopic" used, or even inferred or implied.  So...maybe not.

But....maybe since then the EP has changed his mind about it.  Oh...wait....CHANGE?  IN ORTHODOXY?? IS OUTRAGE!!!   ;D 

(Before anybody gets their knickers in a twist, I do know that the EP and Orthodoxy are not identical.)

Well, an interview is not a teaching, though unfortunately many people today can mistake that.  He may have mispoken or whatever, I do not know.  But certainly today in the OCA we are 100% pro-life.  So I couldn't care less what he said.  He can't infallibly declare something to change our beliefs and he certainly is entitled to his own opinions.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2013, 01:58:47 PM »
Maybe this is taken out of context?  Maybe he is talking about ectopic pregnancies?

Well, the "Source" is dated 1996, and it quotes an article from 1990 from the S.F.Chronicle.  Nowhere in what is quoted is the word "ectopic" used, or even inferred or implied.  So...maybe not.

But....maybe since then the EP has changed his mind about it.  Oh...wait....CHANGE?  IN ORTHODOXY?? IS OUTRAGE!!!   ;D 

(Before anybody gets their knickers in a twist, I do know that the EP and Orthodoxy are not identical.)

Well, an interview is not a teaching, though unfortunately many people today can mistake that.  He may have mispoken or whatever, I do not know.  But certainly today in the OCA we are 100% pro-life.  So I couldn't care less what he said.  He can't infallibly declare something to change our beliefs and he certainly is entitled to his own opinions.

Apart from the fact that statements made in an interview could very well be "a teaching", I couldn't agree with you more  ;).

Actually, you probably should care about what he says or said because he is looked upon quite widely (whether rightly or wrongly is an altogether different matter) as "the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox."  As such, what he says does have ramifications.
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Offline choy

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2013, 02:01:59 PM »
Apart from the fact that statements made in an interview could very well be "a teaching", I couldn't agree with you more  ;).

Actually, you probably should care about what he says or said because he is looked upon quite widely (whether rightly or wrongly is an altogether different matter) as "the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox."  As such, what he says does have ramifications.

Only non-Orthodox think that.  The Orthodox know that our spiritual leader are the Fathers and Mothers of our faith who have taught orthodoxy.  We've had many heretical Patriarchs of Constantinople in the past, we know our faith does not hinge merely on the opinion of one.

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2013, 02:22:10 PM »
I often wonder if there is much known, of what is already obscure, of Orthodoxy in the world beyond the contradictory aspects of a seemingly worldly patriarch and a couple of "synods of resistance" at Athos?
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2013, 02:29:36 PM »
Apart from the fact that statements made in an interview could very well be "a teaching", I couldn't agree with you more  ;).

Actually, you probably should care about what he says or said because he is looked upon quite widely (whether rightly or wrongly is an altogether different matter) as "the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox."  As such, what he says does have ramifications.

Only non-Orthodox think that.  The Orthodox know that our spiritual leader are the Fathers and Mothers of our faith who have taught orthodoxy.  We've had many heretical Patriarchs of Constantinople in the past, we know our faith does not hinge merely on the opinion of one.

You're talkin' to someone who knows a little bit (not, I repeat, NOT a lot) about Orthodoxy, so I know that it's non-Orthodox (and some poorly catechized Orthodox) who think that.  They far outnumber the Orthodox.  My point is, that given that perception of the EP, what he says tends to influence people, whether or not you like it.  Didn't someone above write something about a number of non-Orthodox not coming into Orthodoxy because of the statement referred to in the OP?  So...whether you or I or anyone else like it or not, what he says does have ramifications, and possibly quite serious or widely felt ones at that.  So...you can ignore him or not, care what he says or not, but what he says does have a little bit of "influence".
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Offline choy

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2013, 02:36:34 PM »
You're talkin' to someone who knows a little bit (not, I repeat, NOT a lot) about Orthodoxy, so I know that it's non-Orthodox (and some poorly catechized Orthodox) who think that.  They far outnumber the Orthodox.  My point is, that given that perception of the EP, what he says tends to influence people, whether or not you like it.  Didn't someone above write something about a number of non-Orthodox not coming into Orthodoxy because of the statement referred to in the OP?  So...whether you or I or anyone else like it or not, what he says does have ramifications, and possibly quite serious or widely felt ones at that.  So...you can ignore him or not, care what he says or not, but what he says does have a little bit of "influence".

Conversion is only brought about by God.  If those people didn't want to come into Orthodoxy because of this one issue, and they didn't bother to investigate it further, then they really weren't looking for Orthodoxy.  When I was thinking about converting to Orthodoxy, I came upon discussions on this forum which supported abortion and same-sex marriage.  I was stopped in my tracks.  But I talked to my priest and he clarified everything for me.

In the Philippines we have a saying, "ang ayaw may dahilan, ang gusto may paraan."  Literally it means, "those who don't want finds an excuse, those who do want finds a way."

Offline J Michael

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2013, 02:49:00 PM »
You're talkin' to someone who knows a little bit (not, I repeat, NOT a lot) about Orthodoxy, so I know that it's non-Orthodox (and some poorly catechized Orthodox) who think that.  They far outnumber the Orthodox.  My point is, that given that perception of the EP, what he says tends to influence people, whether or not you like it.  Didn't someone above write something about a number of non-Orthodox not coming into Orthodoxy because of the statement referred to in the OP?  So...whether you or I or anyone else like it or not, what he says does have ramifications, and possibly quite serious or widely felt ones at that.  So...you can ignore him or not, care what he says or not, but what he says does have a little bit of "influence".

Conversion is only brought about by God.  If those people didn't want to come into Orthodoxy because of this one issue, and they didn't bother to investigate it further, then they really weren't looking for Orthodoxy.  When I was thinking about converting to Orthodoxy, I came upon discussions on this forum which supported abortion and same-sex marriage.  I was stopped in my tracks.  But I talked to my priest and he clarified everything for me.

In the Philippines we have a saying, "ang ayaw may dahilan, ang gusto may paraan."  Literally it means, "those who don't want finds an excuse, those who do want finds a way."

Yes, yes, yes....I know.  None of which detracts from......oh, never mind  ::).  (I'll go back to my Russian lesson--far more rewarding  ;D.)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 02:53:22 PM by J Michael »
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Offline Punch

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2013, 03:00:09 PM »
You're talkin' to someone who knows a little bit (not, I repeat, NOT a lot) about Orthodoxy, so I know that it's non-Orthodox (and some poorly catechized Orthodox) who think that.  They far outnumber the Orthodox.  My point is, that given that perception of the EP, what he says tends to influence people, whether or not you like it.  Didn't someone above write something about a number of non-Orthodox not coming into Orthodoxy because of the statement referred to in the OP?  So...whether you or I or anyone else like it or not, what he says does have ramifications, and possibly quite serious or widely felt ones at that.  So...you can ignore him or not, care what he says or not, but what he says does have a little bit of "influence".

Conversion is only brought about by God.  If those people didn't want to come into Orthodoxy because of this one issue, and they didn't bother to investigate it further, then they really weren't looking for Orthodoxy.  When I was thinking about converting to Orthodoxy, I came upon discussions on this forum which supported abortion and same-sex marriage.  I was stopped in my tracks.  But I talked to my priest and he clarified everything for me.

In the Philippines we have a saying, "ang ayaw may dahilan, ang gusto may paraan."  Literally it means, "those who don't want finds an excuse, those who do want finds a way."

How cute.  So in essence, once you decide you want to do something, make up any excuse you need to make it right.  Love it.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline choy

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2013, 03:20:00 PM »
You're talkin' to someone who knows a little bit (not, I repeat, NOT a lot) about Orthodoxy, so I know that it's non-Orthodox (and some poorly catechized Orthodox) who think that.  They far outnumber the Orthodox.  My point is, that given that perception of the EP, what he says tends to influence people, whether or not you like it.  Didn't someone above write something about a number of non-Orthodox not coming into Orthodoxy because of the statement referred to in the OP?  So...whether you or I or anyone else like it or not, what he says does have ramifications, and possibly quite serious or widely felt ones at that.  So...you can ignore him or not, care what he says or not, but what he says does have a little bit of "influence".

Conversion is only brought about by God.  If those people didn't want to come into Orthodoxy because of this one issue, and they didn't bother to investigate it further, then they really weren't looking for Orthodoxy.  When I was thinking about converting to Orthodoxy, I came upon discussions on this forum which supported abortion and same-sex marriage.  I was stopped in my tracks.  But I talked to my priest and he clarified everything for me.

In the Philippines we have a saying, "ang ayaw may dahilan, ang gusto may paraan."  Literally it means, "those who don't want finds an excuse, those who do want finds a way."

How cute.  So in essence, once you decide you want to do something, make up any excuse you need to make it right.  Love it.

Or do you give up so easily at the first sign of trouble?  "Oh, this is too hard."  Obviously if these people really cared enough to learn Orthodoxy, they would know that the faith does not fall on the comments of one, even if he is the Ecumenical Patriarch.  As I said, there have been many heretic Ecumenical Patriarchs.  I'm not saying Patriarch Bartholomew I is, my point is that we do not believe in an infallible bishop who cannot make errors when teaching about morality and the faith.  So when they do make errors, it doesn't bring our faith, our Church, crashing down to the ground.

If they really believed in the Truth of Orthodoxy, they wouldn't have given up so easily.  Obviously they don't, they just want to run away from the Vatican II Church.  That is not a reason to convert to Orthodoxy.

Offline stanley123

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2013, 07:54:40 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

The EP is dead wrong here.
There is no excuse for killing the unborn. Abortion is murder.

Even in an ectopic pregnancy, where the embryo has implanted itself in the walls of the Fallopian tube, there is still a chance that the life of that embryo can be saved. Daily, we are developing new technology and methods to save lives. 
Perhaps he is saying that as with any sin, we should not set ourselves up as judge and jury of a person who has committed that sin, even one as gravely wrong as abortion. It is for God to judge the person, and not us.

So, we're not to say that a sin is a sin?
We are to say a sin is a sin. For example, it is a sin to deliberately misinterpret what someone has said.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2013, 08:11:33 PM »
Every behavior can be a sin (and evidently thoughts, feelings, diseases, earthquakes). Can people move on to nuance now?
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Offline William

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2013, 08:34:05 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

Source

This statement makes me somewhat uneasy, the only justifiable reason I could see from an Orthodox standpoint for abortion is if it threatens the health of the mother. But, the EP doesn't seem to mention that at all, rather, he says that there are "many reasons" and makes no mention to health. Likewise, notice he says "Christian" couples, I find that to be somewhat of an oxymoron, since canonically speaking, you cannot be an Orthodox Christian and have abortions with no good health reason to justify it.

Thoughts?

The EP is dead wrong here.
There is no excuse for killing the unborn. Abortion is murder.

Even in an ectopic pregnancy, where the embryo has implanted itself in the walls of the Fallopian tube, there is still a chance that the life of that embryo can be saved. Daily, we are developing new technology and methods to save lives. 
Perhaps he is saying that as with any sin, we should not set ourselves up as judge and jury of a person who has committed that sin, even one as gravely wrong as abortion. It is for God to judge the person, and not us.

The EP's statement was sufficient to drive away some Orthodox inquirers and catechumens who were originally Roman Catholic. They left Orthodoxy and joined some sedevacantist group.

I have to say that you are correct.  And it would go beyond just the Roman Catholics.  If I would have read that statement at the time that I was having doubts about my former denomination (WELS Lutheran) and was searching for the True Church, I would never have set foot in an Orthodox Church.   

As an inquirer, it does make me stop and think. If the Ecumenical Patriarch can say this without censure, how do I know that abortion isn't given a green light in the future?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2013, 09:08:15 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarch made a statement about abortion I was wondering your thoughts on it:

Quote
Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy, the church also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples...We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.

As an inquirer, it does make me stop and think. If the Ecumenical Patriarch can say this without censure, how do I know that abortion isn't given a green light in the future?

Rewind . . .

William, really the tone of your posts are overly triumphal even for an inquirer.

Look at the bolded words. Contrary to the simplistic and reductionistic posts around here, couples do have abortions for many reasons. Rarely (never, although I did meet one unfortunate soul who would fit the weird and bizarre straw woman people like to paint around here to mix a metaphor) is it to MURDER someone.

God forbid we not generalize and just say people who seek out abortion are murderers.

Again, no one here believes it, so I really wish everyone would quit saying it. Lying may be or may not be a sin, but hypocrisy ranks high. And people flirt with it often around here.

The real problem here should be the fact the EP thinks a soul enters a body at conception. That is the strangest and most problematic thing about his statement. Maybe something is lost in translation.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 09:09:59 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline William

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Re: Ecumenical Patriarch & Abortion
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2013, 09:10:32 PM »
Actually being dejected by something is pretty much the exact opposite of triumphalism.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant