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Author Topic: Headcoverings - Why don't Christian men cover their heads as did the Jews of old  (Read 3356 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 17, 2013, 12:14:31 PM »

I am sorry to report that the Jewish encyclopedia disagrees with you on this point. According to the Jewish encyclopedia it was customary among the Greeks to offer sacrifices with uncovered head—"capite aperto" and this was the  form adopted by Paul for the Christians in his first Epistle to the Corinthians (xi. 2 et seq.).

Explain this then: why did St. Paul need to instruct Greek women to cover their heads like Jewish women and Greek men to uncover their heads like pagan Greek men would? Does it make sense to you?

There is no ancient Jewish text that attests to the custom of men praying with their head covered in Antiquity. What you quoted from the Talmud so far doesn't do it either...  

May I suggest that the Jewish Encyclopedia (which edition?) might want to make St. Paul and Christians in general look less Jewish and more pagan? Rabbis did occasionally try to ascribe the weight of antiquity to some of their more recent beliefs and practices - e.g. all things Kabbalah.    

I would like to know why there is this discrepancy in the covering of the female and the male head?
Did St. Paul invent this? Do Jewish women today continue the tradition of covering their heads when they are in the synagogue or have they given into the fashion of the 1960's?

Jewish men still wear their hats, but not all. Again the hedonistic fashions of the 1960's continue to dominate the world with "hot" short shorts, bare heads, and bare arms. Lord have mercy.

So why aren't men and women wearing headcoverings today? Who started this?
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2013, 12:21:54 PM »

Do Jewish women today continue the tradition of covering their heads when they are in the synagogue or have they given into the fashion of the 1960's?

Judging by the abundance of sites that offer different styles of headcoverings and tips on how to wear them, I assume that they do.
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2013, 01:13:04 PM »

I would like to know why there is this discrepancy in the covering of the female and the male head?
Did St. Paul invent this?

No, he was passing on Jewish tradition to the Gentile Church of Corinth. If you read 1 Corinthians 11, you'll see his theological argumentation:

Quote
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. 2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you. 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ. 4 Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, 5 but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head--it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. 7 For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. 8 Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man. 10 For this reason a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man or man independent of woman. 12 For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled? 14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone is disposed to be contentious--we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

Do Jewish women today continue the tradition of covering their heads when they are in the synagogue or have they given into the fashion of the 1960's?

Orthodox (Jewish) women do. Not only in synagogues. 

So why aren't men and women wearing headcoverings today? Who started this?

Christian men should not have their heads covered while in church. Monks and bishops do, but not at all times. The latter is an innovation, just as Jewish men wearing a kippa was innovation from later ages. St. Paul attests the older Jewish (and Christian) custom.

Heaving one's head covered apparently was a sign of submission to an authority. According to St. Paul's argument, men reflect God's (Christ's) authority, so they should stand bear headed for prayer. Nevertheless, both men and women are equal in their subjection to God's authority. Headdress seems to have a symbolic hierarchic function. Perhaps this is why he thought it offensive to the well ordered taxeis of the Angels to see women uncovered.

In later ages, pious Jews such as Rabbi Huna bar Joshua felt that even walking stoutly for four cubits, with head uncovered and raised up, meant being oblivious of God's glory (authority) which is present everywhere. 
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 01:43:54 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2013, 05:26:31 PM »

Do Jewish women today continue the tradition of covering their heads when they are in the synagogue or have they given into the fashion of the 1960's?

Judging by the abundance of sites that offer different styles of headcoverings and tips on how to wear them, I assume that they do.

Borrowing a great post from the sister thread:
This post quoted below shows different head coverings of women:

Explain this then: why did St. Paul need to instruct Greek women to cover their heads like Jewish women and Greek men to uncover their heads like pagan Greek men would?    
I don't think that  Greek men of ancient times wore anything on their heads in public or for prayer. However, I thought that Greek women did wear headcovering and it had nothing to do with the Jews.





There were many Jewish ladies living in Greece. Could not these Jews have influenced the Greeks?

Then look at that last picture where the woman looks like she is wearing Muslim garb (at a time when Muslims were not). That tells me that exaggerated Muslim coverings for women came from some culture they encountered as Muslims were known to borrow heavily from the cultures in which they came into contact. For example, they picked up prostrations, times of prayer, and mosque designs from the Judeo-Christian culture.
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2013, 05:32:53 PM »

Fashion abhors the stereotypes of tradition. City dwellers (such as the Corinthians) often tended to be more fashionable than traditional. So much so that Duris of Samos reports that at one time the men of Athens κόμας ἐφόρουν, αἱ δὲ γυναῖκες ἐκείροντο ("wore long hair, but the women were close cropped"). This is, of course, exactly the opposite of what St. Paul recommends.

There's another Apostle that asks Christian women to imitate the (Jewish) "holy women of old" in stead of the hairstyles and fashion of contemporary Greek ladies:

Quote
Do not adorn yourselves outwardly by braiding your hair, and by wearing gold ornaments or fine clothing; 4 rather, let your adornment be the inner self with the lasting beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in God's sight. 5 It was in this way long ago that the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by accepting the authority of their husbands. 6 Thus Sarah obeyed Abraham and called him lord. You have become her daughters as long as you do what is good and never let fears alarm you. 7 Husbands, in the same way, show consideration for your wives in your life together, paying honor to the woman as the weaker sex, since they too are also heirs of the gracious gift of life--so that nothing may hinder your prayers. (1 Peter 3:3-7)
 

Men wearing long hair; women cropping theirs?

Sounds like hair styles today.

Have you been saying that the Jewish tradition where men cover their heads with those skullcaps started after the time of Christ? Very interesting. Do you have any links or a reference?
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2013, 05:40:11 PM »

Fashion abhors the stereotypes of tradition. City dwellers (such as the Corinthians) often tended to be more fashionable than traditional. So much so that Duris of Samos reports that at one time the men of Athens κόμας ἐφόρουν, αἱ δὲ γυναῖκες ἐκείροντο ("wore long hair, but the women were close cropped"). This is, of course, exactly the opposite of what St. Paul recommends.

There's another Apostle that asks Christian women to imitate the (Jewish) "holy women of old" in stead of the hairstyles and fashion of contemporary Greek ladies:

Quote
Do not adorn yourselves outwardly by braiding your hair, and by wearing gold ornaments or fine clothing; 4 rather, let your adornment be the inner self with the lasting beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in God's sight. 5 It was in this way long ago that the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by accepting the authority of their husbands. 6 Thus Sarah obeyed Abraham and called him lord. You have become her daughters as long as you do what is good and never let fears alarm you. 7 Husbands, in the same way, show consideration for your wives in your life together, paying honor to the woman as the weaker sex, since they too are also heirs of the gracious gift of life--so that nothing may hinder your prayers. (1 Peter 3:3-7)
 

Men wearing long hair; women cropping theirs?

Sounds like hair styles today.

Have you been saying that the Jewish tradition where men cover their heads with those skullcaps started after the time of Christ? Very interesting. Do you have any links or a reference?

According to Wikipedia, skullcaps date from no further back than the Middle Ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kippah

As for the Grecian lady with a covered face, that could very well be a trend of the Hellenistic times. Assyrian and Persian noblewomen covered their faces, while prostitutes were forbidden by law to veil.
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2013, 05:42:28 PM »

I am sorry to report that the Jewish encyclopedia disagrees with you on this point. According to the Jewish encyclopedia it was customary among the Greeks to offer sacrifices with uncovered head—"capite aperto" and this was the  form adopted by Paul for the Christians in his first Epistle to the Corinthians (xi. 2 et seq.).

Explain this then: why did St. Paul need to instruct Greek women to cover their heads like Jewish women and Greek men to uncover their heads like pagan Greek men would? Does it make sense to you?

There is no ancient Jewish text that attests to the custom of men praying with their head covered in Antiquity. What you quoted from the Talmud so far doesn't do it either...  

May I suggest that the Jewish Encyclopedia (which edition?) might want to make St. Paul and Christians in general look less Jewish and more pagan? Rabbis did occasionally try to ascribe the weight of antiquity to some of their more recent beliefs and practices - e.g. all things Kabbalah.    

I would like to know why there is this discrepancy in the covering of the female and the male head?
Did St. Paul invent this? Do Jewish women today continue the tradition of covering their heads when they are in the synagogue or have they given into the fashion of the 1960's?

Jewish men still wear their hats, but not all. Again the hedonistic fashions of the 1960's continue to dominate the world with "hot" short shorts, bare heads, and bare arms. Lord have mercy.

So why aren't men and women wearing headcoverings today? Who started this?
Is this just another thread where you bemoan the fact that so many women don't wear head coverings in church and you're just throwing the men in to be "fair"?
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2013, 05:46:57 PM »

Have you been saying that the Jewish tradition where men cover their heads with those skullcaps started after the time of Christ? Very interesting. Do you have any links or a reference?

Exactly!

Even in Talmudic times, head covering was not mandatory for Jewish men.

http://www.bje.org.au/learning/judaism/symbols/head.html

http://www.headcoverings-by-devorah.com/HeadcoveringInJewishLaw.htm

http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%204%20Rabinowitz.pdf
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2013, 06:02:58 PM »

It is the practice, as far as I know, of Orthodox Jewish men to put on phylacteries (tefillin), on their heads, while they pray in the morning. I wonder if the practice of the yarmulke is a reminder of that? Hmmm.
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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2013, 06:10:46 PM »

According to Plutarch (Sayings of Spartans), some Spartans took their unmarried women into public places without headcovering, but their married women usually wore headcoverings or veils in public. Perhaps headcovering for the woman, while not universal in Greece, was a sign of respect or deference.   
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2013, 07:53:53 PM »

It is the practice, as far as I know, of Orthodox Jewish men to put on phylacteries (tefillin), on their heads, while they pray in the morning. I wonder if the practice of the yarmulke is a reminder of that? Hmmm.

Didn't Jewish men do this during the Old Testament times too? Or again, is practice of recent origin?

PtA: I really do not know much about Jewish traditions, so I am interested in knowing more particularly those customs and traditions that we have that came from the Jews. I did study the Old Testament, called Jewish Studies, at the Catholic university I attended, but unfortunately those courses on the Creation, Exodus, the Law, Judges, Kings, Prophets, and the Psalms mostly covered the writings in the Old Testament, so that the traditions or culture if discussed only concerned those writings. Our professors wanted to keep on topic as we had too much material to cover, and those were only survey courses.
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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2013, 07:59:25 PM »

It is the practice, as far as I know, of Orthodox Jewish men to put on phylacteries (tefillin), on their heads, while they pray in the morning. I wonder if the practice of the yarmulke is a reminder of that? Hmmm.

Didn't Jewish men do this during the Old Testament times too? Or again, is practice of recent origin?

I think the phylacteries are pretty old. I believe they say it's in Deuteronomy.
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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2013, 08:02:37 PM »

It is the practice, as far as I know, of Orthodox Jewish men to put on phylacteries (tefillin), on their heads, while they pray in the morning. I wonder if the practice of the yarmulke is a reminder of that? Hmmm.

Didn't Jewish men do this during the Old Testament times too? Or again, is practice of recent origin?

I think the phylacteries are pretty old. I believe they say it's in Deuteronomy.

That is what I thought. Interesting.
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2013, 09:09:29 PM »

I am sorry to report that the Jewish encyclopedia disagrees with you on this point. According to the Jewish encyclopedia it was customary among the Greeks to offer sacrifices with uncovered head—"capite aperto" and this was the  form adopted by Paul for the Christians in his first Epistle to the Corinthians (xi. 2 et seq.).

Explain this then: why did St. Paul need to instruct Greek women to cover their heads like Jewish women and Greek men to uncover their heads like pagan Greek men would? Does it make sense to you?

There is no ancient Jewish text that attests to the custom of men praying with their head covered in Antiquity. What you quoted from the Talmud so far doesn't do it either...  

May I suggest that the Jewish Encyclopedia (which edition?) might want to make St. Paul and Christians in general look less Jewish and more pagan? Rabbis did occasionally try to ascribe the weight of antiquity to some of their more recent beliefs and practices - e.g. all things Kabbalah.    

I would like to know why there is this discrepancy in the covering of the female and the male head?
Did St. Paul invent this? Do Jewish women today continue the tradition of covering their heads when they are in the synagogue or have they given into the fashion of the 1960's?

Jewish men still wear their hats, but not all. Again the hedonistic fashions of the 1960's continue to dominate the world with "hot" short shorts, bare heads, and bare arms. Lord have mercy.

So why aren't men and women wearing headcoverings today? Who started this?

Yes, Orthodox and some Conservative Jewish Women cover their heads when in synagogue.
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2013, 09:36:52 PM »

It is the practice, as far as I know, of Orthodox Jewish men to put on phylacteries (tefillin), on their heads, while they pray in the morning. I wonder if the practice of the yarmulke is a reminder of that? Hmmm.

Didn't Jewish men do this during the Old Testament times too? Or again, is practice of recent origin?

PtA: I really do not know much about Jewish traditions, so I am interested in knowing more particularly those customs and traditions that we have that came from the Jews. I did study the Old Testament, called Jewish Studies, at the Catholic university I attended, but unfortunately those courses on the Creation, Exodus, the Law, Judges, Kings, Prophets, and the Psalms mostly covered the writings in the Old Testament, so that the traditions or culture if discussed only concerned those writings. Our professors wanted to keep on topic as we had too much material to cover, and those were only survey courses.
I just thought your second-paragraph comments about the "hedonistic" 1960s fashions a bit gratuitous to the point of distraction.
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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2013, 03:48:53 AM »

I am sorry to report that the Jewish encyclopedia disagrees with you on this point. According to the Jewish encyclopedia it was customary among the Greeks to offer sacrifices with uncovered head—"capite aperto" and this was the  form adopted by Paul for the Christians in his first Epistle to the Corinthians (xi. 2 et seq.).

Explain this then: why did St. Paul need to instruct Greek women to cover their heads like Jewish women and Greek men to uncover their heads like pagan Greek men would? Does it make sense to you?

There is no ancient Jewish text that attests to the custom of men praying with their head covered in Antiquity. What you quoted from the Talmud so far doesn't do it either...  

May I suggest that the Jewish Encyclopedia (which edition?) might want to make St. Paul and Christians in general look less Jewish and more pagan? Rabbis did occasionally try to ascribe the weight of antiquity to some of their more recent beliefs and practices - e.g. all things Kabbalah.    

I would like to know why there is this discrepancy in the covering of the female and the male head?
Did St. Paul invent this? Do Jewish women today continue the tradition of covering their heads when they are in the synagogue or have they given into the fashion of the 1960's?

Jewish men still wear their hats, but not all. Again the hedonistic fashions of the 1960's continue to dominate the world with "hot" short shorts, bare heads, and bare arms. Lord have mercy.

So why aren't men and women wearing headcoverings today? Who started this?

Yes, observant Jewish women still cover their hair at all times not only during prayer. Many Ashkenazi(European Jewish) women use a shteitl or wig while others use the veil.

Tunisian Sefardic Jewish women:


Ashkenazic (European) Jewish women:
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2013, 10:49:02 PM »

Of course, I wonder if most jews wear headware? I would assume only the most pious do

And, if you see this very nice video of HIS ALL HOLINESS in a synagogue (shh don't remind anyone of the canons about this...) I do not see women with head coverings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOpHM6CYVGs
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2013, 12:23:02 AM »

Of course, I wonder if most jews wear headware? I would assume only the most pious do

And, if you see this very nice video of HIS ALL HOLINESS in a synagogue (shh don't remind anyone of the canons about this...) I do not see women with head coverings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOpHM6CYVGs

Well, all the men including the Greek Orthodox clergy had their heads covered in that synagogue.
No doubt, the men who manned the vestibule or whatever they call their "Narthex" were giving out head coverings for the men.

Obviously, this synagogue is not an Orthodox Jewish synagogue, but a more liberal one.
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2013, 02:39:49 PM »

It is the practice, as far as I know, of Orthodox Jewish men to put on phylacteries (tefillin), on their heads, while they pray in the morning. I wonder if the practice of the yarmulke is a reminder of that? Hmmm.

An Orthodox Jewish male 13 years or older wears tefillin on his head and arm every morning, except for on Shabbat and during certain special days and periods (which vary by custom). This commandment is derived from Exodus 13:9 and Deuteronomy 6:8:

Quote from: Deuteronomy 6:8
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your arm, and they shall be as totafot between your eyes.

The meaning of the word totafot is debated, but in most Orthodox Jewish translations of the Bible, I've seen it rendered as "a reminder."

Regarding the skullcap, Jews will admit that it is not a biblical commandment, nor even a rabbinical commandment. There are various "tales" as to how the custom of wearing the skullcap developed. The purpose of the skullcap seems to be to remind its wearer that there is always something "above them," i.e. God. When something has been a custom long enough, it becomes a de facto rule for Orthodox practioners. Technically, you only need to wear the skullcap during prayer or when you're eating (since you need to say prayers before and after food).

Of course, I wonder if most jews wear headware? I would assume only the most pious do

And, if you see this very nice video of HIS ALL HOLINESS in a synagogue (shh don't remind anyone of the canons about this...) I do not see women with head coverings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOpHM6CYVGs

Almost all Orthodox Jewish men wear headware at all times, except when exposed to water (often showering or taking a dip in the ritual bath). Those who adhere to stricter authorities, such as most Hasidic groups, often wear a second piece of headgear when praying, to show that they are actually going through the extra step of covering their heads specifically for the act of prayer. This is why a lot of Jews can be seen wearing all sorts of hats (hint: they're wearing a skullcap under the hat).

Orthodox Jewish women must cover their hair once they marry. I have heard of some extremely strict Hasidic sects that encourage girls to cover their heads, but I've never seen it in practice. The requirements for covering are debatable, and there are many different types of headwraps, from a modest, thick cloth, to a flamboyant wig. The wigs, I still don't understand. The point of covering the head is to keep the hair, a sign of the woman's sexuality, private to her husband. But if you look just as "desirable," perhaps even moreso than they do in their natural hair, then what's the point?

To be honest, I'm still a little bothered by the idea of seeing little six year old girls covering their heads in Orthodox churches. I suppose I'm fine with it if they're doing it on their own, because maybe they want to be like their older sisters or mothers. But if their parents are making them... well, it's not my place to judge either way.

As an ex-Orthodox Jew, I would be happy to attempt to answer any other questions you might have about the customs.
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2013, 03:44:52 PM »

It is the practice, as far as I know, of Orthodox Jewish men to put on phylacteries (tefillin), on their heads, while they pray in the morning. I wonder if the practice of the yarmulke is a reminder of that? Hmmm.

An Orthodox Jewish male 13 years or older wears tefillin on his head and arm every morning, except for on Shabbat and during certain special days and periods (which vary by custom). This commandment is derived from Exodus 13:9 and Deuteronomy 6:8:

Quote from: Deuteronomy 6:8
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your arm, and they shall be as totafot between your eyes.

The meaning of the word totafot is debated, but in most Orthodox Jewish translations of the Bible, I've seen it rendered as "a reminder."

Regarding the skullcap, Jews will admit that it is not a biblical commandment, nor even a rabbinical commandment. There are various "tales" as to how the custom of wearing the skullcap developed. The purpose of the skullcap seems to be to remind its wearer that there is always something "above them," i.e. God. When something has been a custom long enough, it becomes a de facto rule for Orthodox practioners. Technically, you only need to wear the skullcap during prayer or when you're eating (since you need to say prayers before and after food).

Of course, I wonder if most jews wear headware? I would assume only the most pious do

And, if you see this very nice video of HIS ALL HOLINESS in a synagogue (shh don't remind anyone of the canons about this...) I do not see women with head coverings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOpHM6CYVGs

Almost all Orthodox Jewish men wear headware at all times, except when exposed to water (often showering or taking a dip in the ritual bath). Those who adhere to stricter authorities, such as most Hasidic groups, often wear a second piece of headgear when praying, to show that they are actually going through the extra step of covering their heads specifically for the act of prayer. This is why a lot of Jews can be seen wearing all sorts of hats (hint: they're wearing a skullcap under the hat).

Orthodox Jewish women must cover their hair once they marry. I have heard of some extremely strict Hasidic sects that encourage girls to cover their heads, but I've never seen it in practice. The requirements for covering are debatable, and there are many different types of headwraps, from a modest, thick cloth, to a flamboyant wig. The wigs, I still don't understand. The point of covering the head is to keep the hair, a sign of the woman's sexuality, private to her husband. But if you look just as "desirable," perhaps even moreso than they do in their natural hair, then what's the point?

To be honest, I'm still a little bothered by the idea of seeing little six year old girls covering their heads in Orthodox churches. I suppose I'm fine with it if they're doing it on their own, because maybe they want to be like their older sisters or mothers. But if their parents are making them... well, it's not my place to judge either way.

As an ex-Orthodox Jew, I would be happy to attempt to answer any other questions you might have about the customs.

Thank you very much for this information.

However, one poster seemed to imply that Jewish men did not cover their heads until recently (sometime after the Resurrection of Christ).
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2013, 03:46:56 PM »

It definitely wasn't a custom in the time of Christ. I wouldn't be surprised if it was "solidified" in the middle ages.
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2013, 03:58:36 PM »

It definitely wasn't a custom in the time of Christ. I wouldn't be surprised if it was "solidified" in the middle ages.

Men dressing as women, and women dressing as men?
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2013, 04:02:52 PM »

It definitely wasn't a custom in the time of Christ. I wouldn't be surprised if it was "solidified" in the middle ages.

Men dressing as women, and women dressing as men?

What about it? It's explicitly prohibited by the Torah (I don't know what the Orthodox Church says):

Quote from: Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2013, 04:05:19 PM »

It definitely wasn't a custom in the time of Christ. I wouldn't be surprised if it was "solidified" in the middle ages.

Men dressing as women, and women dressing as men?

What about it? It's explicitly prohibited by the Torah (I don't know what the Orthodox Church says):

Quote from: Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

Then why are Orthodox Jewish men scrupulously wearing headcoverings while most Jewish women do not? They got it backwards.
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2013, 04:08:46 PM »

It definitely wasn't a custom in the time of Christ. I wouldn't be surprised if it was "solidified" in the middle ages.

Men dressing as women, and women dressing as men?

What about it? It's explicitly prohibited by the Torah (I don't know what the Orthodox Church says):

Quote from: Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

Then why are Orthodox Jewish men scrupulously wearing headcoverings while most Jewish women do not? They got it backwards.

lol. They're wearing "manly" skullcaps and clothes, soaked in testosterone:
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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2013, 05:28:45 PM »

It definitely wasn't a custom in the time of Christ. I wouldn't be surprised if it was "solidified" in the middle ages.

Men dressing as women, and women dressing as men?

What about it? It's explicitly prohibited by the Torah (I don't know what the Orthodox Church says):

Quote from: Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

Then why are Orthodox Jewish men scrupulously wearing headcoverings while most Jewish women do not? They got it backwards.

lol. They're wearing "manly" skullcaps and clothes, soaked in testosterone:


Those look like dresses. Minus their heads, they could pass for women. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2013, 05:35:44 PM »

It definitely wasn't a custom in the time of Christ. I wouldn't be surprised if it was "solidified" in the middle ages.

Men dressing as women, and women dressing as men?

What about it? It's explicitly prohibited by the Torah (I don't know what the Orthodox Church says):

Quote from: Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

Then why are Orthodox Jewish men scrupulously wearing headcoverings while most Jewish women do not? They got it backwards.

lol. They're wearing "manly" skullcaps and clothes, soaked in testosterone:


Those look like dresses. Minus their heads, they could pass for women. Roll Eyes

Then you could say the same for Orthodox priests and monks in their cassocks.  Try again, Maria.
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« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2013, 05:48:30 PM »

I wouldn't mind if there is a prescibed head gear for men.

One thing I envy about Sikhs is that the men never have a bad hair day  Grin Cheesy
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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2013, 06:02:20 PM »

One thing I envy about Sikhs is that the men never have a bad hair day  Grin Cheesy

Tough on bikers, though. Tongue
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« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2013, 06:04:28 PM »

One thing I envy about Sikhs is that the men never have a bad hair day  Grin Cheesy

Tough on bikers, though. Tongue

Here in Canada they have gotten exemptions from helmet laws.  They are certainly an inspiration in the fight for religious rights.

On the other hand I'm quite surprised no one has come up with an invention that will allow them to have head protection with their head gear.
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« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2013, 06:09:30 PM »

One thing I envy about Sikhs is that the men never have a bad hair day  Grin Cheesy

Tough on bikers, though. Tongue

Here in Canada they have gotten exemptions from helmet laws.  They are certainly an inspiration in the fight for religious rights.

On the other hand I'm quite surprised no one has come up with an invention that will allow them to have head protection with their head gear.

Probably not a big enough market. If such were to be invented, the UK would be the place. It seems like every other male employee at Heathrow is turbaned.
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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2013, 06:16:59 PM »

One thing I envy about Sikhs is that the men never have a bad hair day  Grin Cheesy

Tough on bikers, though. Tongue

Here in Canada they have gotten exemptions from helmet laws.  They are certainly an inspiration in the fight for religious rights.

On the other hand I'm quite surprised no one has come up with an invention that will allow them to have head protection with their head gear.

Probably not a big enough market. If such were to be invented, the UK would be the place. It seems like every other male employee at Heathrow is turbaned.

Lots of them here in Canada too.  I'm sure there's some inventor in India who could do it.
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« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2013, 07:25:49 PM »

One thing I envy about Sikhs is that the men never have a bad hair day  Grin Cheesy

Tough on bikers, though. Tongue

Here in Canada they have gotten exemptions from helmet laws.  They are certainly an inspiration in the fight for religious rights.

On the other hand I'm quite surprised no one has come up with an invention that will allow them to have head protection with their head gear.

Probably not a big enough market. If such were to be invented, the UK would be the place. It seems like every other male employee at Heathrow is turbaned.

Lots of them here in Canada too.  I'm sure there's some inventor in India who could do it.

No, that would take US ingenuity. All one needs to do is form a head gear in metal that looks like a turban with texture-like cloth. Choy, maybe you could become a millionaire by designing such head gear for motorcycles and bicyclists.
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« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2013, 07:30:10 PM »

No, that would take US ingenuity. All one needs to do is form a head gear in metal that looks like a turban with texture-like cloth. Choy, maybe you could become a millionaire by designing such head gear for motorcycles and bicyclists.

Or I could be dead broke with all the ensuing lawsuits from poor design.
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« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2013, 08:44:20 PM »

You know, without our distinctive headgear, we're all pretty similar...



(don't tell the ecumenists!)
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« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2013, 09:23:31 PM »

You know, without our distinctive headgear, we're all pretty similar...



(don't tell the ecumenists!)

I recognize the one in the middle, but who are the other two bearded ones?
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« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2013, 09:29:52 PM »

Quote

lol. They're wearing "manly" skullcaps and clothes, soaked in testosterone:


Those look like dresses. Minus their heads, they could pass for women. Roll Eyes

<image cut to save bandwidth>

Not necessarily. or maybe to *your* eyes, but not to other people.  To some those gentlemen might appear to be wearing garments like bathrobes or perhaps the long coats that were common at one time for men in various parts of Europe.  The shoes and stockings come from a particular time and cultural tradition.  

Judging other people's clothing by only one time/region/custom or way that one likes is not fair to them nor accurate to the truth of what they wear or do.  Declaring that one type of garment is "male" and another "female" does not fit in much of the world or history.  

As I've written in the past, the real history of clothing can be interesting and much depends on the technology, materials and environment of a particular society or group.
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« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2013, 09:39:01 PM »

Quote

lol. They're wearing "manly" skullcaps and clothes, soaked in testosterone:


Those look like dresses. Minus their heads, they could pass for women. Roll Eyes

<image cut to save bandwidth>

Not necessarily. or maybe to *your* eyes, but not to other people.  To some those gentlemen might appear to be wearing garments like bathrobes or perhaps the long coats that were common at one time for men in various parts of Europe.  The shoes and stockings come from a particular time and cultural tradition.  

Judging other people's clothing by only one time/region/custom or way that one likes is not fair to them nor accurate to the truth of what they wear or do.  Declaring that one type of garment is "male" and another "female" does not fit in much of the world or history.  

As I've written in the past, the real history of clothing can be interesting and much depends on the technology, materials and environment of a particular society or group.


police  I hope you noticed the smilie present in my post.  police

Old testament figures, both men and women, are depicted in long robes, yet these garments were distinctive for each sex.

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« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2013, 09:44:20 PM »

You know, without our distinctive headgear, we're all pretty similar...



(don't tell the ecumenists!)

I recognize the one in the middle, but who are the other two bearded ones?

The first is Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the 2nd is Constantinople Patriarch Bartholomew, the 3rd is Coptic Pope Tawadros II. Why isn't Dumbledore on this list?
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« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2013, 09:55:19 PM »

Quote

lol. They're wearing "manly" skullcaps and clothes, soaked in testosterone:


Those look like dresses. Minus their heads, they could pass for women. Roll Eyes

<image cut to save bandwidth>

Not necessarily. or maybe to *your* eyes, but not to other people.  To some those gentlemen might appear to be wearing garments like bathrobes or perhaps the long coats that were common at one time for men in various parts of Europe.  The shoes and stockings come from a particular time and cultural tradition.  

Judging other people's clothing by only one time/region/custom or way that one likes is not fair to them nor accurate to the truth of what they wear or do.  Declaring that one type of garment is "male" and another "female" does not fit in much of the world or history.  

As I've written in the past, the real history of clothing can be interesting and much depends on the technology, materials and environment of a particular society or group.


police  I hope you noticed the smilie present in my post.  police

Old testament figures, both men and women, are depicted in long robes, yet these garments were distinctive for each sex.



Well, perhaps the two of us have different ideas of what <rolling eyes> mean.

Anyway, that was then and in a particular area of the planet.  In other cultures and climates human beings have been known to wear garments that are pretty much the same for adults of both sexes, the Inuit and other peoples of the Arctic areas for example with the parka and leggings made of skins because that's what there is to make them and male or female have the same need for protection from the weather.  In Japan peasant/farmer clothing was often the same sort of thing for both because it was practical for the work that everyone did.  

Things do change with the passage of time, advances/changes in technology, different materials, other differences such as bathing and hair washing becoming easier with in-door hot water and shampoo in the home, and more.  



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« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2013, 09:56:18 PM »

You know, without our distinctive headgear, we're all pretty similar...



(don't tell the ecumenists!)

I recognize the one in the middle, but who are the other two bearded ones?

The first is Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the 2nd is Constantinople Patriarch Bartholomew, the 3rd is Coptic Pope Tawadros II. Why isn't Dumbledore on this list?

Right for the first two. You'll be shocked to learn that the third is actually Rabbi Shlomo Amar, the Chief Sephardic Rabbi of Israel.



Also Dumbledore was not on this list because there are two Dumbledores and I'm not sure which one is canonical.
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« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2013, 10:01:26 PM »

You know, without our distinctive headgear, we're all pretty similar...



(don't tell the ecumenists!)

I recognize the one in the middle, but who are the other two bearded ones?

The first is Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the 2nd is Constantinople Patriarch Bartholomew, the 3rd is Coptic Pope Tawadros II. Why isn't Dumbledore on this list?

Right for the first two. You'll be shocked to learn that the third is actually Rabbi Shlomo Amar, the Chief Sephardic Rabbi of Israel.



Also Dumbledore was not on this list because there are two Dumbledores and I'm not sure which one is canonical.

Actually, I'm not shocked I though it could have been Cheif Rabbi Shlomo Amar. On a similar note, his "vestments" are very similar to that worn by the Oriental Orthodox hierarchy.
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« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2013, 10:09:54 PM »

Sorry, I think I was projecting. I was shocked. Shocked

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« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2013, 10:38:47 PM »

This Syriac priest looks a lot like an Ashkenazi Rabbi!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlPx9Gzyl8Q
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« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2013, 11:13:47 PM »

This Syriac priest looks a lot like an Ashkenazi Rabbi!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlPx9Gzyl8Q

Yes, he does. Perhaps that is why some Orthodox Christian Priests are mistaken for Rabbis.
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