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Author Topic: Worst Hymns Ever - a Catholic's lament  (Read 5934 times) Average Rating: 0
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orthros
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« on: March 16, 2013, 11:33:53 AM »

One of the nice things about being Eastern Catholic is that I don't have to endure the shudder hymns of Novus Ordo Catholicism.  The hymns of the East are so God-centered, so timeless and so prayerful that it's really hard to listen to one after you've heard the other.


For those who have suffered through, er, experienced them, what was the one hymn that just set your teeth on edge?


Mine was a little ditty called Anthem. It has the soul-crushing heresy of narcissism combined with a tune that sounds like it jumped straight out of the 70s intending to strangle your brain.

I'd post full lyrics, but if you read them you're gonna have a bad time.  For the truly brave:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmpqFvjEFqw

Snippet:

We are promised to tomorrow,
while we are for him today.
We are sign, we are wonder.
We are sower, we are seed.
We are harvest, we are hunger.
We are question, we are creed.
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2013, 12:00:55 PM »

My last RC priest had this song that sounds like a pre-school song but he keeps singing it and getting everyone else to sing it.  I can't remember the lyrics now (it's been 3 years since I stopped going to an RC Church) but it still annoys me when I think about it.
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2013, 12:06:56 PM »

My last RC priest had this song that sounds like a pre-school song but he keeps singing it and getting everyone else to sing it.  I can't remember the lyrics now (it's been 3 years since I stopped going to an RC Church) but it still annoys me when I think about it.

A mighty fortress is Our God , and Amazing Grace although pretty isn't a Catholic hymn, and "Faith of our Fathers" (anti Catholic hymn by the way) were song in my former church years ago.  
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 12:07:09 PM by JoeS2 » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2013, 12:46:14 PM »


We are promised to tomorrow,
while we are for him today.
We are sign, we are wonder.
We are sower, we are seed.
We are harvest, we are hunger.
We are question, we are creed.

A hymn to oneself?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 12:46:20 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2013, 12:53:37 PM »

^ Pretty much.

There's a similar one called "Sing a New Church into Being" that goes along the same pathway, but reuses the tune of an old (and beautiful) Irish melody.  Makes one want to weep.
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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2013, 06:06:07 PM »

We are the body of Christ
On Eagle's Wings
Yahweh I know you are
One Bread, One body
I will Raise you up

(Don't know if those are the actual titles, but anyone with experience of the NO in the USA will know what I'm talking about)
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2013, 11:11:40 AM »

One of the nice things about being Eastern Catholic is that I don't have to endure the shudder hymns of Novus Ordo Catholicism.  The hymns of the East are so God-centered, so timeless and so prayerful that it's really hard to listen to one after you've heard the other.


For those who have suffered through, er, experienced them, what was the one hymn that just set your teeth on edge?


Mine was a little ditty called Anthem. It has the soul-crushing heresy of narcissism combined with a tune that sounds like it jumped straight out of the 70s intending to strangle your brain.

I'd post full lyrics, but if you read them you're gonna have a bad time.  For the truly brave:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmpqFvjEFqw

Snippet:

We are promised to tomorrow,
while we are for him today.
We are sign, we are wonder.
We are sower, we are seed.
We are harvest, we are hunger.
We are question, we are creed.

haven't heard that one in 20 years or more I'd bet. 
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2013, 11:13:03 AM »

We are the body of Christ
On Eagle's Wings
Yahweh I know you are
One Bread, One body
I will Raise you up

(Don't know if those are the actual titles, but anyone with experience of the NO in the USA will know what I'm talking about)

The problem is many of us were raised up on these hymns so to us they aren't horrible.  Not Veni Creator Spiritus but it is what we cut our teeth on, buried people singing, married people singing, baptised people singing.  I doubt they go away anytime soon.
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2013, 11:21:31 AM »

I still think it's weird that the Latins threw out all their beautiful Gregorian chant to replace it with garbage.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 11:21:41 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2013, 11:42:57 AM »

One of the nice things about being Eastern Catholic is that I don't have to endure the shudder hymns of Novus Ordo Catholicism.  The hymns of the East are so God-centered, so timeless and so prayerful that it's really hard to listen to one after you've heard the other.


For those who have suffered through, er, experienced them, what was the one hymn that just set your teeth on edge?


Mine was a little ditty called Anthem. It has the soul-crushing heresy of narcissism combined with a tune that sounds like it jumped straight out of the 70s intending to strangle your brain.

I'd post full lyrics, but if you read them you're gonna have a bad time.  For the truly brave:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmpqFvjEFqw

Snippet:

We are promised to tomorrow,
while we are for him today.
We are sign, we are wonder.
We are sower, we are seed.
We are harvest, we are hunger.
We are question, we are creed.

The worse heretical NO hymn I have ever heard is:

HER name is Jesus.

The "Catholic" choir director insisted that we sing this hymn, but half of the choir members either would not sing this hymn (just mouthing it) or sing HIS. Not known to her because the choir sang on the left side of the altar, and this in a Roman Catholic parish, the parish drowned out the choir and sang "HIS," so the pastor never knew that his beloved choir director was teaching heresy.

Shortly after the introduction of this horrible heretical hymn, our family left and joined the Melkite Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2013, 11:48:32 AM »

We are the body of Christ
On Eagle's Wings
Yahweh I know you are
One Bread, One body
I will Raise you up

(Don't know if those are the actual titles, but anyone with experience of the NO in the USA will know what I'm talking about)

One of those songs you have titled "I will Raise You UP" is actually, "I am the Bread of Life."
It concludes with
Quote
And I will raise him up,
and I will raise him up,
and I will raise him up on the last day.
However, that song was written before the politically correct gender neutral language was introduced.
Don't know how they are singing it today, and don't want to know.
 Tongue


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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2013, 03:21:35 PM »

A mighty fortress is Our God , and Amazing Grace although pretty isn't a Catholic hymn, and "Faith of our Fathers" (anti Catholic hymn by the way) were song in my former church years ago.  
anti-catholic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_of_Our_Fathers_(hymn)
"Faith of our Fathers is an English Catholic hymn, written in 1849.."
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 03:22:48 PM by Tallitot » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2013, 03:44:16 PM »

I think it's a little funny that the "Worst hymns ever" would show up in the Catholic section when so many of these hymns are terrible precisely because they don't reflect the true heritage and spirituality of the Western Catholic Church as it was before the schisms. I still listen to a fair bit of Latin chant, though I prefer to stick to people who know what they're doing (Ensemble Organum, the Monks' Choir of the Abbey of Santo Domingo de Silos, the Monastery of Keur Moussa, Senegal, etc.) than some dork on a piano singing Protestant songs. Of course that's going to be awful. You have to go to where the good stuff is. And by "you" (since the OP is Eastern Catholic), I really mean the Latin Church itself. You can't get there from where you are now, with tinkering and making little allowances here and there so that the people who want good stuff can get it, since most people won't know any better (as another poster alluded to, if you grew up with this awful stuff, it won't be awful to you). It be great to have a Roman Pope who would use his magical infallibility powers to say that the next person who brings a Marty Haugen composition to church is excommunicated, immediately. Alas, that's about as likely to happen as having all the Romans follow St. Arsenius into the desert... Cheesy

Good stuff:

This is the only anthem I need to hear
And this one's so good, even Copts like it
The Lamentations of Jeremiah, as they should be
Some more of the good stuff
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 03:45:22 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2013, 04:41:43 PM »

The hymns of the East are so God-centered, so timeless and so prayerful that it's really hard to listen to one after you've heard the other.

Hymns of the West are too. This crappy emotional stuff is not really Western.
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2013, 04:43:53 PM »

Sing, my tongue, the glorious battle
Sing the last, the dread affray;
O'er the Cross, the victor's trophy,
Sound the high triumphal lay:
Tell how Christ, the world's Redeemer,
As a victim won the day.

God, His Maker, sorely grieving
That the first-made Adam fell,
When he ate the fruit of sorrow,
Whose reward was death and hell,
Noted then this Wood, the ruin
Of the ancient wood to quell.
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2013, 04:50:25 PM »

Not invested in the issue, obviously, not beyond the artistic value of a piece, but the only hymn I actually enjoy in English is 'O Come, O Come Emmanuel'. Otherwise, I'm all for medieval chant, some of which even lends itself particularly well to some modern experimentation.

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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2013, 05:31:37 PM »

There are a few modern hymns here and there that in my opinion weren't so bad. However, I think that the old Gregorian chants are beautiful, and impart a good sense of solidity to the service. I wonder if this would help: put more traditional and Gregorian songs in the Mass. If some people in the parish want to hear 'new' things, maybe every once in a while, the parish could have a musical performance after the Mass. There you go. Smiley Just a thought.
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« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2013, 01:51:11 AM »

A mighty fortress is Our God
I knew that this hymn was already in the Catholic hymnal, but it floors me that they would put a song written by the original anti-Catholic theologian (Luther) in their book.
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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2013, 09:05:36 AM »

A mighty fortress is Our God
I knew that this hymn was already in the Catholic hymnal, but it floors me that they would put a song written by the original anti-Catholic theologian (Luther) in their book.

Pick up a Catholic Hymnal in church someday and look at the "non" traditional "hymns".  It may surprise you.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 09:05:53 AM by JoeS2 » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2013, 09:12:51 AM »

We are the body of Christ
On Eagle's Wings
Yahweh I know you are
One Bread, One body
I will Raise you up

(Don't know if those are the actual titles, but anyone with experience of the NO in the USA will know what I'm talking about)

The problem is many of us were raised up on these hymns so to us they aren't horrible.  Not Veni Creator Spiritus but it is what we cut our teeth on, buried people singing, married people singing, baptised people singing.  I doubt they go away anytime soon.

Indeed.  Are these hymns sentimental and a little schlocky?  Sure.  I won't deny that.  These hymns recall 1st and 2nd grade for me, easily the happiest time of my elementary education, and part of that time was spent learning these songs.  These at least have actual memorable melodies and are relatively easy to sing as opposed to some of the just plain terrible songs still coming out of OCP (Oregon Catholic Press) that I get to hear about once a year when I have to attend a funeral or wedding in an RC parish. 
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« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2013, 09:56:39 AM »

"They Know We Are Christians By Our Love" and "Allelu", both are they earliest folk gjuitar hymns by Ray Repp.  They were terrible back in the beginning and they still are. 
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« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2013, 10:01:10 AM »

"They Know We Are Christians By Our Love" and "Allelu", both are they earliest folk gjuitar hymns by Ray Repp.  They were terrible back in the beginning and they still are. 

YEs, those are terrible.  *SHUDDER*
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« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2013, 10:45:30 AM »

I love "On Eagle's Wings."  Grew up with it.  My grandfather wants it played at his funeral.

Was at mass the other day and they sang it.  Cried my eyes out.  It's beautiful and I'm not cynical enough to say otherwise.
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« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2013, 10:06:27 PM »

I, the Lord of sea and sky
I have heard my people cry
All who dwell in dark and sin
My hand will save:

I who made the stars and night
I will make the darkness bright
Who will bear my light to them?
Whom shall I send?

Here I am Lord
Is it I Lord?
I have heard you calling in the night
I will go Lord
If you lead me
I will hold your people in my heart

I the Lord of snow and rain,
I have borne my people's pain,
I have wept for love of them,
They turn away...

I will break their hearts of stone
Fill their hearts with love alone
I will speak my word to them
Whom shall I send?

Here I am Lord
Is it I Lord?
I have heard you calling in the night
I will go Lord
If you lead me
I will hold your people in my heart

I, the Lord of wind and flame
I will tend the poor and lame
I will set a feast for them
My hand will save:

Finest bread I will provide
Till their hearts be satisfied
I will give my life to them
Whom shall I send?
Whom shall I send?

Here I am Lord
Is it I Lord?
I have heard you calling in the night
I will go Lord
If you lead me
I will hold your people in my heart

Here I Am Lord  - The Vandals
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« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2013, 10:32:35 PM »

It makes me sad that even now, years after I've stopped regularly attending NO Masses, I can still recall every one of these songs just by reading the titles and a few lyrics.

Oh healing river, send down your waters...
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2013, 10:43:25 PM »

We are the body of Christ
On Eagle's Wings
Yahweh I know you are
One Bread, One body
I will Raise you up

(Don't know if those are the actual titles, but anyone with experience of the NO in the USA will know what I'm talking about)

I thought those were the actual words of a horrible hymn until I got to the sentence at the bottom.
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2013, 10:58:22 PM »

For the past thirty years a local Catholic priest had a 7am Sunday radio show. We set the alarm for that station every day anyway so we listened as he was a very good homilist, but the music and hymns were like chalk screeching on a blackboard to my east European orthodox ears. It did wake us up before the weekly Sunday polka show so we all knew we could get to liturgy on time!  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2013, 11:16:42 PM »

This thread is a greatest hits of Novus Ordo memories.

http://www.amazon.ca/Why-Catholics-Cant-Sing-Catholicism/dp/0824511530

This is actually a decent hymn - or rather the music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny1SOgCLnaw

The original hymn is quite old and the lyrics of Eastern origin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_all_mortal_flesh_keep_silence
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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2013, 11:25:42 PM »

the weekly Sunday polka show

 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked laugh laugh
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« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2013, 11:26:06 PM »

One Bread, One body
Oh GOD, not that one!

"Go Make A Difference" is also just so terribad.

I just remember when I went to NO Masses after they'd lost their charm for me, who had just come out of Protestantism. Sitting in the pews singing songs like those two just made me wanna

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« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2013, 11:50:54 PM »

In the late 1970's, St. Joseph's, Enfield (in Sydney) switched from traditional hymns to songs such as "Let it Be", and of course "Kum by ya"
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« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2013, 12:22:32 AM »

      Oh my goodness, what memories!  I was a Cathoic altar boy in the '50's and can still remember the entire Mass of the Dead in chant and in Latin.  The "Dies irae dies ila" sticks in my memory and I'd like it sung at my Orthodox funeral!   Then as a member of a Catholic order and a (guitar/banjo player)during the post Vat-2 upheaval, plus a choir director in my parish after leaving the order, I was right in the middle of the musical horrors of the 70's.  We tried to make up our own lyrics to folk tunes everyone knew: "Michael Row The Boat Ashore" was followed by some really vacuous phrasings!!
     In the early 1970's there was an effort to come up with some hymns that fit in.  We were instructed to pick the simplest tunes that everyone could follow:  "the Mass isn't a performance at the Grand Old Oprey, ya know!"  I guess the Bishop was right in that, but what did we end up with???
      Thank you Montalban for the lyrics to one of the most embarrassing tunes we sang:  "Here I Am Lord"!  Wow, what a self centered piece of drivel: I, I, I, I....the most used word in the tune.  (Sorry, can't call it a hymn.)  I still have the choir leader's book for the collection, with guitar chords and piano arrangements and four part harmony: the 1977 version of "Glory & Praise" . While digging around, I found the music for Repp's "Mass For Young Americans" plus the "Missa Bossa Nova".
     What a difference compared to singing the Ochteochos now........
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« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2013, 12:48:43 AM »

One of the nice things about being Eastern Catholic is that I don't have to endure the shudder hymns of Novus Ordo Catholicism.  The hymns of the East are so God-centered, so timeless and so prayerful that it's really hard to listen to one after you've heard the other.

God, I thank thee, that my holy Eastern church is not as other churches are...
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« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2013, 07:00:44 AM »

     Oh my goodness, what memories!  I was a Cathoic altar boy in the '50's and can still remember the entire Mass of the Dead in chant and in Latin.  The "Dies irae dies ila" sticks in my memory and I'd like it sung at my Orthodox funeral!   Then as a member of a Catholic order and a (guitar/banjo player)during the post Vat-2 upheaval, plus a choir director in my parish after leaving the order, I was right in the middle of the musical horrors of the 70's.  We tried to make up our own lyrics to folk tunes everyone knew: "Michael Row The Boat Ashore" was followed by some really vacuous phrasings!!
     In the early 1970's there was an effort to come up with some hymns that fit in.  We were instructed to pick the simplest tunes that everyone could follow:  "the Mass isn't a performance at the Grand Old Oprey, ya know!"  I guess the Bishop was right in that, but what did we end up with???
      Thank you Montalban for the lyrics to one of the most embarrassing tunes we sang:  "Here I Am Lord"!  Wow, what a self centered piece of drivel: I, I, I, I....the most used word in the tune.  (Sorry, can't call it a hymn.)  I still have the choir leader's book for the collection, with guitar chords and piano arrangements and four part harmony: the 1977 version of "Glory & Praise" . While digging around, I found the music for Repp's "Mass For Young Americans" plus the "Missa Bossa Nova".
     What a difference compared to singing the Ochteochos now........

I only wish I can remember where I read about that song (an Orthodox criticism of it) ; the negative 'humanistic' influences that are in it - where man is put before/ahead of God

Also, speaking of lyrics, as school boys we created (out of mischief) our own lyrics to "Sons of God"

The original goes:
Sons of God: Hear His Holy word,

 Gather around the table of the Lord

 Eat His Body, drink His Blood

 And we'll sing a song of love

 Allelu, allelu, allelu, alleluia

Our version (and you'll lose a lot as it's got Australian references)

Sons of God: Hear his holy word

Gather around the Sydney Cricket Ground

Eat meat pies and drink KB*

Throw the cans at the referee

Allelu, allelu, allelu, alleluia

and so on

*KB was a brand of canned beer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KB_Lager
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« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2013, 08:46:11 AM »

      Oh my goodness, what memories!  I was a Cathoic altar boy in the '50's and can still remember the entire Mass of the Dead in chant and in Latin.  The "Dies irae dies ila" sticks in my memory and I'd like it sung at my Orthodox funeral!   Then as a member of a Catholic order and a (guitar/banjo player)during the post Vat-2 upheaval, plus a choir director in my parish after leaving the order, I was right in the middle of the musical horrors of the 70's.  We tried to make up our own lyrics to folk tunes everyone knew: "Michael Row The Boat Ashore" was followed by some really vacuous phrasings!!
     In the early 1970's there was an effort to come up with some hymns that fit in.  We were instructed to pick the simplest tunes that everyone could follow:  "the Mass isn't a performance at the Grand Old Oprey, ya know!"  I guess the Bishop was right in that, but what did we end up with???
      Thank you Montalban for the lyrics to one of the most embarrassing tunes we sang:  "Here I Am Lord"!  Wow, what a self centered piece of drivel: I, I, I, I....the most used word in the tune.  (Sorry, can't call it a hymn.)  I still have the choir leader's book for the collection, with guitar chords and piano arrangements and four part harmony: the 1977 version of "Glory & Praise" . While digging around, I found the music for Repp's "Mass For Young Americans" plus the "Missa Bossa Nova".
     What a difference compared to singing the Ochteochos now........

I was at a funeral at two different RCCs and both had women singing solo, and they were soooo bad.  I mean, they could have cracked crystal.
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« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2013, 09:38:11 AM »


Hey, that's a big event up here in "Pennsyltucky." Lots of free advertising for bake sales, craft fairs, dinners, picnics and other assorted parish fundraisers!
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« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2013, 09:39:32 AM »

One of the nice things about being Eastern Catholic is that I don't have to endure the shudder hymns of Novus Ordo Catholicism.  The hymns of the East are so God-centered, so timeless and so prayerful that it's really hard to listen to one after you've heard the other.

God, I thank thee, that my holy Eastern church is not as other churches are...

I think that needs rephrasing.... Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2013, 11:41:19 AM »

One of the nice things about being Eastern Catholic is that I don't have to endure the shudder hymns of Novus Ordo Catholicism.  The hymns of the East are so God-centered, so timeless and so prayerful that it's really hard to listen to one after you've heard the other.

God, I thank thee, that my holy Eastern church is not as other churches are...

I think that needs rephrasing.... Smiley
indeed.... I'm not surprised, though.
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« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2013, 12:21:13 PM »

One of the nice things about being Eastern Catholic is that I don't have to endure the shudder hymns of Novus Ordo Catholicism.  The hymns of the East are so God-centered, so timeless and so prayerful that it's really hard to listen to one after you've heard the other.

God, I thank thee, that my holy Eastern church is not as other churches are...

I say something similar to this every time I'm at a NO Mass. I don't see a problem. That parable is about personal behavior, not how different denominations operate.
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« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2013, 12:42:21 PM »

Not invested in the issue, obviously, not beyond the artistic value of a piece, but the only hymn I actually enjoy in English is 'O Come, O Come Emmanuel'. Otherwise, I'm all for medieval chant, some of which even lends itself particularly well to some modern experimentation.

Jan Garbarek & The Hilliard Ensemble - Officium


I'm on the fence with this.  My choir director grew up RC, but has been Orthodox for over 30 years now.  He has an ABD from UCLA in historical music, so knows his Western and Eastern rubrics both like the back of his hand.  I let him borrow one of those albums which I picked up used for cheap. He couldn't stand more than a song or two.  I think the the Tenor sax can work, as it provides a nice "ison" to the Gregorian chant, but the Soprano Sax is just too loud and piercing, drowning out the voices (and helped even more by the big acoustic of the church where it was recorded).
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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2013, 06:51:53 AM »

I walked in the local monstrocity known as a Norvus Ordo "church" recently just out of curiosity for the beginning of their "mass" and just as I got by about three "greeters" and into the  completely carpeted,Masonic-hall looking chapel without a Crucifix or a kneeler to be seen I began to hear the song be sung by a choir of youing girls dressed so appropiately in matching white t-shirts and shorts while being stragetically located up where the Table (No altar of course) of the Lord would be and to my astonishment and amazement they were sining in unison a chorus of "Let it Be".......

That's right folks, they were singing the Beatles in church.

Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that; I'm right and I'll be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now; I don't know which will go first—rock 'n' roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins it for me.- John Lennon
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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2013, 02:34:57 PM »

Well, it can be argued that rock is dead.. Are you willing to post identifying information regarding the Church and mass you described?  Name, location, Diocese etc....
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« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2013, 02:45:29 PM »

So this is what's left of the once so great Latin Church?
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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2013, 02:50:12 PM »

There is a thread going on Fish Eaters about what would the OF of the Mass have for music today if the Mass was changed now rather than in the 1960's.  Unfortunately, what we have is a product of the time when the new Missal was developed.  A few friends and I call it the "its the Body of Christ Charlie Brown!" music. 

Its a tragedy to be sure, and I hope the ship rights itself.  I had hopes under B16 with his establishment of a pontifical commission on sacred music, but with Pope Francis, I am not sure that will ever come to fruition. 
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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2013, 02:54:10 PM »

Not invested in the issue, obviously, not beyond the artistic value of a piece, but the only hymn I actually enjoy in English is 'O Come, O Come Emmanuel'.

Me too.  I look forward to singing that in Advent every year. 
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« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2013, 02:57:05 PM »

Some Catholic bishops are working to right the ship in this area, and so are the laity.

http://www.dioceseofmarquette.org/UserFiles/Bishop/PastoralLetter-RejoiceInTheLordAlways.pdf
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/bishop-sample-transformed-by-the-liturgy-transforming-the-culture#When:2013-03-8%2009:47:01
http://www.ceciliaschola.org/notes/benedictonmusic.html#Silence
http://us6.campaign-archive1.com/?u=81d357824f841cad0851fb7cb&id=af635da6eb&e=7e3eeab6b5
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/benedictine-monk-reverent-liturgy-helps-us-encounter-christ/
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« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2013, 04:43:42 PM »

The problem is many of us were raised up on these hymns so to us they aren't horrible.  Not Veni Creator Spiritus but it is what we cut our teeth on, buried people singing, married people singing, baptised people singing.  I doubt they go away anytime soon.

did u mean to say this?!
if so, please ask liza symonenko to attend and take photos of the raising of the dead for us!
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« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2013, 05:29:24 PM »

The problem is many of us were raised up on these hymns so to us they aren't horrible.  Not Veni Creator Spiritus but it is what we cut our teeth on, buried people singing, married people singing, baptised people singing.  I doubt they go away anytime soon.

did u mean to say this?!
if so, please ask liza symonenko to attend and take photos of the raising of the dead for us!

The we was implied. I.E. [We] buried people singing, [we] married people singing, etc.
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« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2013, 06:15:41 PM »

We sang a re-worded version of leonard cohen's "hallelujah" at the end of mass today. (I was at a Catholic Church that I really like today.) It was great.
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« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2013, 08:44:04 PM »

We sang a re-worded version of leonard cohen's "hallelujah" at the end of mass today. (I was at a Catholic Church that I really like today.) It was great.

Where, o where are thine "deep" roots?

Quote
Abba Georgios, the presbyter of the Coenobium of the Scholars, told us that in that monastery there lived an elderly monk, of great standing as an ascetic, but he was naïve about the faith and would receive [communion] wherever he found [it], without discernment. One day an Angel of God appeared to him and said: “Tell me, old man, when you die, how do you want us to bury you? After the rite of the monks of Egypt or of those of Jerusalem?” The old man answered saying: “I do not know.” Whereupon the Angel said to him: "Think it over and I shall come in three weeks’ time and you will tell me.”

The old man went to see another Elder and told him what he heard from the Angel. When the Elder heard this, he was astonished. And looking at him for a long while, moved by God, he asked him: “Where do you partake of the Holy Mysteries?” He answered: “Wherever I find them.” (The Romanian version has: "Wherever I hear chanting.") Then the Elder told him: “Let it  never again occur to you  to receive communion outside of the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, where the four Holy Councils are named – that of Nicaea of the 318 [Fathers], Constantinople of the 150, the first of Ephesus of the 200 and Chalcedon of the 630 – and when the Angel comes, tell him that [you want to be buried] like those of Jerusalem.”

After three weeks the Angel came and asked him: “What will it be then, old man? Did you think about it?” The old man answered: “I want to be buried like those of Jerusalem!” The Angel told him: “Very well, very well!” And he gave up his soul immediately. All this happened, in order that the old man might not waste his efforts and be numbered with the heretics.

St. John Moschos, The Spiritual Meadow 178 (PG 87, 3048-9)
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« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2013, 08:50:41 PM »

Ha
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« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2013, 11:59:58 AM »

Well, it can be argued that rock is dead.. Are you willing to post identifying information regarding the Church and mass you described?  Name, location, Diocese etc....
Interesting since the Church was built upon the "Rock", Petros himself.

At any rate I'd rather not publicly display any information for that Modernists, quasi-Protestant, "catholic" Glee Club over there they pass off as a RC "church". I you like PM and i'll give you it's website and you can see for yourself this N.O. abomination.
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« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2013, 12:02:40 PM »

So this is what's left of the once so great Latin Church?
Ever since the Smoke of Satan began filtering in through a crack in it's foundation after VII, not much.
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« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2013, 12:15:13 PM »

Interesting since the Church was built upon the "Rock", Petros himself.


So you say. The Church proclaims otherwise.
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« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2013, 12:18:43 PM »

Interesting since the Church was built upon the "Rock", Petros himself.


So you say. The Church proclaims otherwise.
I didn't say it, Christ did.
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« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2013, 12:54:40 PM »

Interesting since the Church was built upon the "Rock", Petros himself.


So you say. The Church proclaims otherwise.

The church proclaims a lot of things against Christ. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." isn't in your Bible?
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« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2013, 07:25:42 AM »

Well, it can be argued that rock is dead.. Are you willing to post identifying information regarding the Church and mass you described?  Name, location, Diocese etc....
Interesting since the Church was built upon the "Rock", Petros himself.

At any rate I'd rather not publicly display any information for that Modernists, quasi-Protestant, "catholic" Glee Club over there they pass off as a RC "church". I you like PM and i'll give you it's website and you can see for yourself this N.O. abomination.

If you read that the church was built on the foundation of all the Apostles, with Jesus as the chief cornerstone it might bring it into proper context
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« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2013, 08:12:20 AM »

Well, it can be argued that rock is dead.. Are you willing to post identifying information regarding the Church and mass you described?  Name, location, Diocese etc....
Interesting since the Church was built upon the "Rock", Petros himself.

At any rate I'd rather not publicly display any information for that Modernists, quasi-Protestant, "catholic" Glee Club over there they pass off as a RC "church". I you like PM and i'll give you it's website and you can see for yourself this N.O. abomination.

If you read that the church was built on the foundation of all the Apostles, with Jesus as the chief cornerstone it might bring it into proper context

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« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2013, 10:41:34 PM »

The problem, IMO, is that the Latin Church has been perhaps too open to new music and dropping older forms and even texts.   Carolingian-era "Gregorian" Chant seems to be a likely monastic development, and does not fit well with what's known about Late Antique West Roman liturgy.  Later, they added polyphony , leading to many artistically stellar pieces. After the Renaissance, you had high works of art (e.g. Mozart's Masses) as well as Masses that imitated contemporary music forms.  But at least kept the same texts, even if they weren't participatory the way Late Antique liturgical music was supposed to be.

The big problem, IMO, came when they replaced the propers with hymns - no idea when they started allowing that, but probably as a counter-reformation era action to combat the popularity of Protestant hymns.   Now we have musical style and musical texts for most of Mass which are left up to local discretion, often trying to elicit whatever the local musicians consider a "pious" feeling (I think this is the source of all the weirdness in Latin Catholic music). 

"Why Catholics Can't Sing", referenced above, mentioned music wars in pre-WWII American Latin Catholicism, between Irish-American "folk songs" of the prevailing Irish American Catholic culture (O Lord I am not Worthy, On This Day, O Beautiful Mother) and the songs of Pietro Yon (organist at St Patricks, prolific writer, popular in pre-Vatican II USA but now largely forgotten) versus other traditions imported directly from continental Europe.  The author states a televised Solemn Pontifical Mass for President Kennedy, employing Mozart's Requiem, was  a cultural shock for American Catholics.

However, one of Pope Pius X's liturgical reforms was the promulgation of Gregorian Chant in the Solesmes form (Gregorian Chant had always been the official music of the Latin Church, but it was allegedly ignored for centuries and it was only Papal backing of the Solesmes restoration that brought it back into common use).   Many people resisted this, but there were many who fought for it.  For instance, the Society of Catholic Church Musicians fell behind it and stated, I believe in the 1930s, that many existing commonly used songs (to include Schubert's Ave Maria) were not appropriate for Catholic worship.   I think the Vatican's position has been consistent - Vatican II is clear that Gregorian Chant and Latin are the normative music of the Latin Church, Benedict XVI was for a restoration, and even Paul VI gave each diocese a list of Gregorian chant music, entreating the bishops that all Catholics should know at leas those tunes.   

So, I think the problem - schlocky music conforming to "contemporary" musical styles, ignorant of Latin musical tradition  - has bedeviled the Latin church for at least the entire last century, at least in the United States. (though the music today is arguably more schlocky).  Against this trend you have some Popes sticking up for Gregorian chant and some people following them, but for the past 100 years it's seemed to be a mostly loosing battle.   However, even today there are signs of hope - 20-something friends of mine who are responsible for the 9AM Mass at their local parish use a basic Latin Ordinary, some more traditional hymns, and the propers+responsorial psalm sung in English to simple Chant tones.   

Finally, I would not say the "Byzantine" tradition is necessarily better.  Confining myself just to Greek usage (since that's what I know), current Byzantine chant is almost certainly not the music used in the old liturgy in Constantinople, or even the same as the dominant music at the time of Turkish conquest (though at least the texts are the same with the latter).  In Greece, some of the older chanting styles are kind of hard to listen to.   In the US, we have organs and sometimes maudlin, sometimes ridiculous 1930s-60s era choral settings of the Liturgy.       
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And for the rest of my life to please Thee
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against my sould with his cunning

O Lord before I utterly perish do Thou save me!
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« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2013, 11:28:57 PM »

However, even today there are signs of hope - 20-something friends of mine who are responsible for the 9AM Mass at their local parish use a basic Latin Ordinary, some more traditional hymns, and the propers+responsorial psalm sung in English to simple Chant tones.   

I think this is key. I am all for Gregorian polyphony but it takes lots of practice to get right. I think people gravitate towards the current type of hymns because they're relatively easy for an untrained Joe Parishioner to get started with. If there were a widely available, simple English chant setting for the Novus Ordo I think that would go a long way. (Maybe there is such a thing and I just don't know...)
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« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2013, 10:06:40 PM »


I think this is key. I am all for Gregorian polyphony but it takes lots of practice to get right. I think people gravitate towards the current type of hymns because they're relatively easy for an untrained Joe Parishioner to get started with. If there were a widely available, simple English chant setting for the Novus Ordo I think that would go a long way. (Maybe there is such a thing and I just don't know...)

Agreed.  Such things exist - one can find them in places like Adoremus hymnal.   If a music director used that, and repeated settings very frequently, people would pick it up in no time.  IMO, this is what the Ordinary is for

One other thing to add to my rant in the last message: the problem of "bad music" and of Popes+some liturgical musicians fighting it actually goes back to medieval times and has constantly continued, it's just that the nature changes. 

Bad polyphony (e.g. silly, long, overwrought) was a huge problem in the late Middle Ages/early Renaissance.  For instance, a song called the "Man at Arms" was set to Mass settings some 40+ times, in manuscripts found throughout western Europe from 1450-1550, IIRC.  Palestrina even wrote one (and it's been recorded).   At Trent they wanted to crack down hard against polyphony, and it's said that only Palestrina's intervention (and his composition of Missa Papae Marcelli) kept them from outright banning it.  Later, there were all kinds of oratorio Masses, concerto Masses, string quartet Masses, Opera Masses, etc.  To say nothing of easier-to-sing "folk music" (for lack of a better word) Masses in rural or less musically gifted parishes.

All these are actually interesting from a music history perspective (though remember for each one that's considered worth recording today there are/were at least dozens sitting in libraries or not considered worthy of re-performance).  But they were often of dubious appropriateness at the time, and in the few cases I hear such oddities today (from musicians at more culturally sophisticated 1962 Missal Masses) I highly question their appropriateness....   
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O Lord although I desired to blot out
with my tears the handwriting of my many sins
And for the rest of my life to please Thee
through sincere repentance
Yet doth the enemy lead me astray as he wareth
against my sould with his cunning

O Lord before I utterly perish do Thou save me!
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« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2013, 10:35:00 AM »

Finally, I would not say the "Byzantine" tradition is necessarily better.  Confining myself just to Greek usage (since that's what I know), current Byzantine chant is almost certainly not the music used in the old liturgy in Constantinople, or even the same as the dominant music at the time of Turkish conquest (though at least the texts are the same with the latter).  In Greece, some of the older chanting styles are kind of hard to listen to. 

I do not see how exactly this can be justified, at least not without making some strange presuppositions. I do not mean to say that chant today is completely identical with how chant was sung in the time of the empire, but your statement here seems to imply that chant as it is done today is some degenerate corruption of some pristine Byzantine era chant. This is certainly false.
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« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2013, 11:42:09 AM »

Finally, I would not say the "Byzantine" tradition is necessarily better.  Confining myself just to Greek usage (since that's what I know), current Byzantine chant is almost certainly not the music used in the old liturgy in Constantinople, or even the same as the dominant music at the time of Turkish conquest (though at least the texts are the same with the latter).  In Greece, some of the older chanting styles are kind of hard to listen to.

I do not see how exactly this can be justified, at least not without making some strange presuppositions. I do not mean to say that chant today is completely identical with how chant was sung in the time of the empire, but your statement here seems to imply that chant as it is done today is some degenerate corruption of some pristine Byzantine era chant. This is certainly false.

Chant evolves and ages gradually over time. After all it has generally been an oral tradition in many regions. We know that musicologists have traced modern Kievan chants back in stages to their original roots in the Byzantine era. So it seems reasonable to argue an evolution of the Byzantine chant as well. While probably not dramatic in change like that of the Slavs, it likely differs from chant of the "dark ages" and early middle ages. I didn't pick up anything derogatory in Markos' post.
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« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2013, 11:10:16 AM »

So this is what's left of the once so great Latin Church?
Ever since the Smoke of Satan began filtering in through a crack in it's foundation after VII, not much.

The "smoke of Satan" has ALWAYS been in the Church - didn't Our Lord speak about "the wheat and the tares"?

But there always have been, and always will be, plenty of loving, devout, loyal Catholics toiling away, anonymously serving their Lord to the best of their knowledge and ability, to keep the tares at bay.

Meanwhile, apropos the OP, here's my fave!

"Sons of God, hear His Holy Word,
Gather 'round the table of the Lord,
Eat His Body, drink His Blood,
And we'll sing a song of love,
Allelu, allelu, allelu, allelu-u-ya!"

- You have to envision the highlighted portions being sung in a VERY cheerful, bouncy manner. I have retitled this one "The Cannibal's Hymn" or "Hannibal Lector's Ode".  Grin
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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
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Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2013, 03:19:34 PM »

So this is what's left of the once so great Latin Church?
Ever since the Smoke of Satan began filtering in through a crack in it's foundation after VII, not much.

The "smoke of Satan" has ALWAYS been in the Church - didn't Our Lord speak about "the wheat and the tares"?

But there always have been, and always will be, plenty of loving, devout, loyal Catholics toiling away, anonymously serving their Lord to the best of their knowledge and ability, to keep the tares at bay.

Meanwhile, apropos the OP, here's my fave!

"Sons of God, hear His Holy Word,
Gather 'round the table of the Lord,
Eat His Body, drink His Blood,
And we'll sing a song of love,
Allelu, allelu, allelu, allelu-u-ya!"

- You have to envision the highlighted portions being sung in a VERY cheerful, bouncy manner. I have retitled this one "The Cannibal's Hymn" or "Hannibal Lector's Ode".  Grin


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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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