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Author Topic: Video of Western Rite liturgy?  (Read 3808 times) Average Rating: 0
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2013, 10:09:23 AM »

as Russians, Greeks and Arabs see this

In terms of the exterior? I wouldn't say so. Greece and Cyprus are full of churches that are architecturally Western, but have been used as Orthodox churches for centuries. Isn't one of the pictures you posted the Hagia Sophia (now mosque) in Lefkosia? I'm sure the same is true in many places in the Arab world (one need only look at the Holy Land with all its Crusader churches). I think the Easterners are far more used to Western architecture than Westerners are to the Eastern. Then again, you have Westminster Cathedral, one of the largest churches in London, which is Byzantine in style.

I don't know about that, here is a church in sleepy old Binghamton, NY in upstate New York built in 1923. It is, and always has been the Roman Catholic community of St. John. Coming across the bridge from downtown, one always imagines how magnificent it would be were it an Orthodox or an Eastern Catholic parish.  




or the Episcopal Church of St. Bartholmew in Manhattan:

  
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« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2013, 10:21:48 AM »

All of this aside from the fact that, for growing swaths of people in "the West," "church" looks similar to a concert hall or a dentist's office.
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« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2013, 10:33:28 AM »

All of this aside from the fact that, for growing swaths of people in "the West," "church" looks similar to a concert hall or a dentist's office.

My wife's employer sponsored an in service workshop for public school teachers the other day, over eight hundred educators attended. The new megachurch, First Baptist, undercut other venues for rental by about 50%. My wife was very upset with the place, it reminded her of the Regal 12 Movie Complex in town. Nothing indicated it was a church but for the name. They sat in the modern 'worship center', with AV state of the art screens etc..... only scriptural inscriptions running in caligrophy  along the wall - just like a mosque. Yuck.
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« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2013, 12:30:46 PM »

as Russians, Greeks and Arabs see this

In terms of the exterior? I wouldn't say so. Greece and Cyprus are full of churches that are architecturally Western, but have been used as Orthodox churches for centuries. Isn't one of the pictures you posted the Hagia Sophia (now mosque) in Lefkosia? I'm sure the same is true in many places in the Arab world (one need only look at the Holy Land with all its Crusader churches). I think the Easterners are far more used to Western architecture than Westerners are to the Eastern. Then again, you have Westminster Cathedral, one of the largest churches in London, which is Byzantine in style.

I don't know about that, here is a church in sleepy old Binghamton, NY in upstate New York built in 1923. It is, and always has been the Roman Catholic community of St. John. Coming across the bridge from downtown, one always imagines how magnificent it would be were it an Orthodox or an Eastern Catholic parish.  




or the Episcopal Church of St. Bartholmew in Manhattan:

  
Yes, there seems to have been a fad at the turn of the previous century into the '20s (I was just at St. Bart's last summer), which includes St. John's above, Westminster and the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in DC (when I lived there I referred to it as the National Shrine of the Event that Never Happened Wink).  Exotic chic I guess.

Of course, exotic chic depends on the ordinary standard culture in order to be exotic and chic.

Not so sure we (Middle Easterners, Greeks) are more used to Western architecture.  Being around for so long, where cultures have come and gone and left their relics, we are used to differences.  That doesn't mean we embrace them.
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« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2013, 10:17:07 PM »

The current big hurdle is having the Western Rite getting a bigger budget than the Office Supplies budget at the Archdiocese main office (no, I'm not kidding...its pretty close).

I wondered about that.  Thanks for the comment.  I would assume that is why the churches that I have seen in WRO often have chairs instead of pews and look like they are in really low ceilinged buildings? 
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« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2013, 06:49:09 PM »

The current big hurdle is having the Western Rite getting a bigger budget than the Office Supplies budget at the Archdiocese main office (no, I'm not kidding...its pretty close).

I wondered about that.  Thanks for the comment.  I would assume that is why the churches that I have seen in WRO often have chairs instead of pews and look like they are in really low ceilinged buildings? 

I'm going to bump this question as I was serious, though not trying to be mean in anyway.  I have noticed the trend of Western Rite Orthodox parishes being very small buildings which have low ceilings and often have chairs rather than pews.  I assumed this is a budget issue or related to the fact that man of these parishes are new and may have small numbers of parishioners. 
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« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2013, 08:44:08 PM »

Quote
I have noticed the trend of Western Rite Orthodox parishes being very small buildings which have low ceilings and often have chairs rather than pews.  I assumed this is a budget issue or related to the fact that man of these parishes are new and may have small numbers of parishioners.

As you ought to know (even eastern catholic churches in communion with rome have this issue) pews are controversial amongst Orthodox churches generally, many feel they are a modern westernization. This applies also to the western rite parishes because they more consciously trying to avoid the modern practices common to the roman rite that appear to create unnecessary difference with the byzantine rite. So western rite that would be a post-reformation westernization that seems unnecessary. Of course it depends on the particular pries, some fine them worthy additions, as many greek parishes in the USA also find pews to be worthy additions.
The majority of people do not care much about pews in my experience and can take them or leave the, that would include myself.

But beyond that, money, small numbers and newness to the Church are the other reasons for why the minimalistic qualities are existing which have noticed.
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« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2013, 10:47:50 PM »

Thanks
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« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2013, 10:53:46 PM »

I believe many Americans fail to understand that despite influx of immigrants, globalization and secularization Byzantine rite or other Eastern rites are not as feasible option for many Western European people as Roman rite is. And this is true even without tinfoil theories about DNAs and essentialisms. It is really rather absurd to say anything contrary since Western and Central Europe has celebrated WR services for hundreds of years. It has probably never even occurred to most of the Western Europeans folks that Christianity isn't Western European religion. Cultures don't change overnight.

The hang-ups over this are really quite petty if one considers how Christianity- of any rite- has been introduced to cultures for which all forms of Christianity were equally alien. If someone is serious about the Gospel he will get over it. This agonizing over Western rite vs. Eastern rite is the height of self-absorption.

My current living situation is such that I have no access to a parish of my own tradition; luckily, there is a Coptic church close by, and an Armenian church not too much farther away, and so I attend both (mostly based at the former, though) in order to worship and for access to the sacraments.  In addition, there are EO churches nearby which I attend when the mood strikes me.  I'm familiar enough with Byzantine liturgy to feel comfortable.  The language is an issue with the Armenian Church, but the liturgy itself is like the love child of Byzantium and Syrian Antioch, so I'm fairly comfortable there too, and I'm getting there with the Coptic liturgy.  

In spite of my sinfulness, I like to think that I'm "serious about the Gospel", so I'm grateful to have such opportunities.  But I  don't believe my yearning for my own rite is "self-absorption".  I live my rite: it's how I pray, how I feast and fast, how I understand truth.  My rite is a type of incarnated Gospel for me.  There's smells, sights, sounds, texts, music, art, food, customs, and all sorts of things, large and small, which speak to me about Jesus in a way that "works" for me.  It's not so much self-absorption as it is a vehicle through which I'm working out my salvation with God.  

In all essentials, the Coptic, Armenian, and even Byzantine rites would accomplish the same goal, my sinfulness notwithstanding.  In fact, I depend on that for the duration of my "exile".  But I'll be honest, as comfortable as I am in these rites, it's still not "home".  I like the Coptic liturgy, and am beginning to pick up some of the singing, but I'm not terribly excited by the Agpeya.  I like the Byzantine rite, but there's something about the liturgy itself that always felt disjointed to me, like it was a bunch of pieces thrown together, but not necessarily well integrated (I prefer the office to the liturgy).  They're all Orthodox (to me as an OO anyway), definitely all Eastern, but I have a definite preference that goes beyond aesthetics.  I fully admit that they'll "get the job done", but my rite resonates with me better, and I reject the notion that it's a merely personal, aesthetic hang-up--there has to be a reason that the one gospel was preached all over the world but lived out in very different ways.    

Perhaps some will not understand that idea; maybe they are "cradles" for whom "it's all the same", or maybe they're "converts" whose background is less ritual and more denominational (e.g., there's no Southern Baptist Rite that I'm aware of).  But it doesn't mean that the issue doesn't exist for people raised in a rite, whether from childhood or conversion.  I can sympathise with Roman Catholics (and by extension Anglicans and others with "rites") who would want to hold onto the "Western" rite even while embracing the Orthodox faith.  The way they lived out the gospel up to that point was through those rites, and those rites were once Orthodox.  They're not bad, they are different.  And for them, that way "works".  Why should we complain?  We should help!

And I hope those who believe that "Western rite vs Eastern rite" is just a petty gripe are consistent when it comes to things like the language of the services in any given parish.  The exclusive use of Greek or Georgian in a parish here in the States will not prevent me from going to heaven, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't find English more useful.        

    

  
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« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2013, 11:19:20 PM »

I believe many Americans fail to understand that despite influx of immigrants, globalization and secularization Byzantine rite or other Eastern rites are not as feasible option for many Western European people as Roman rite is. And this is true even without tinfoil theories about DNAs and essentialisms. It is really rather absurd to say anything contrary since Western and Central Europe has celebrated WR services for hundreds of years. It has probably never even occurred to most of the Western Europeans folks that Christianity isn't Western European religion. Cultures don't change overnight.

The hang-ups over this are really quite petty if one considers how Christianity- of any rite- has been introduced to cultures for which all forms of Christianity were equally alien. If someone is serious about the Gospel he will get over it. This agonizing over Western rite vs. Eastern rite is the height of self-absorption.

My current living situation is such that I have no access to a parish of my own tradition; luckily, there is a Coptic church close by, and an Armenian church not too much farther away, and so I attend both (mostly based at the former, though) in order to worship and for access to the sacraments.  In addition, there are EO churches nearby which I attend when the mood strikes me.  I'm familiar enough with Byzantine liturgy to feel comfortable.  The language is an issue with the Armenian Church, but the liturgy itself is like the love child of Byzantium and Syrian Antioch, so I'm fairly comfortable there too, and I'm getting there with the Coptic liturgy.  

In spite of my sinfulness, I like to think that I'm "serious about the Gospel", so I'm grateful to have such opportunities.  But I  don't believe my yearning for my own rite is "self-absorption".  I live my rite: it's how I pray, how I feast and fast, how I understand truth.  My rite is a type of incarnated Gospel for me.  There's smells, sights, sounds, texts, music, art, food, customs, and all sorts of things, large and small, which speak to me about Jesus in a way that "works" for me.  It's not so much self-absorption as it is a vehicle through which I'm working out my salvation with God.  

In all essentials, the Coptic, Armenian, and even Byzantine rites would accomplish the same goal, my sinfulness notwithstanding.  In fact, I depend on that for the duration of my "exile".  But I'll be honest, as comfortable as I am in these rites, it's still not "home".  I like the Coptic liturgy, and am beginning to pick up some of the singing, but I'm not terribly excited by the Agpeya.  I like the Byzantine rite, but there's something about the liturgy itself that always felt disjointed to me, like it was a bunch of pieces thrown together, but not necessarily well integrated (I prefer the office to the liturgy).  They're all Orthodox (to me as an OO anyway), definitely all Eastern, but I have a definite preference that goes beyond aesthetics.  I fully admit that they'll "get the job done", but my rite resonates with me better, and I reject the notion that it's a merely personal, aesthetic hang-up--there has to be a reason that the one gospel was preached all over the world but lived out in very different ways.    

Perhaps some will not understand that idea; maybe they are "cradles" for whom "it's all the same", or maybe they're "converts" whose background is less ritual and more denominational (e.g., there's no Southern Baptist Rite that I'm aware of).  But it doesn't mean that the issue doesn't exist for people raised in a rite, whether from childhood or conversion.  I can sympathise with Roman Catholics (and by extension Anglicans and others with "rites") who would want to hold onto the "Western" rite even while embracing the Orthodox faith.  The way they lived out the gospel up to that point was through those rites, and those rites were once Orthodox.  They're not bad, they are different.  And for them, that way "works".  Why should we complain?  We should help!

And I hope those who believe that "Western rite vs Eastern rite" is just a petty gripe are consistent when it comes to things like the language of the services in any given parish.  The exclusive use of Greek or Georgian in a parish here in the States will not prevent me from going to heaven, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't find English more useful.        

    

  

Great thoughts, thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2013, 01:21:02 AM »

I feel about the same as Mor Ephrem does, yes indeed. When you've grown up reading enough history books of western europe and roman catholic/latin orthodox culture it's hard for some of it's details to not make their mark on you. Inculturation of a church and society is a very profound experience. I can think off the top of my head of four great hollywood type films that have amazing scenes of latin masses in them.  Books and movies can have quite an effect on people, in these cases, quite positive ones.
   
Becket (1964) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057877/
Going My Way (1944) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036872/
Portrait of Jennie (1948) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040705/
The Leopard (1963) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057091/?ref_=sr_1 (They sing the entire Te Deum in this after they war ends and the pray entire Salve Regina antiphon without music as it's happening to ask for intercession to escape from it)

Even in 2007 there was a memorable scene of a traditional latin rite wedding in a 18th c. baroque style in the film called "The Last Mistress" be warned though, that film is too immoral and mediocre acting, I only saw the mass scene as I changed the channel.

My prayer is that someday the Latin rite in the Orthodox Church will have enough budget and adherents to compete with the Priestly Society of St. Piux the X, who have currently begun building a large romanesque seminary in in Charlottesville, VA,

https://www.newseminaryproject.org/

They are about 50 miles from St. Patrick's WR Antiochian Church in Warrenton, VA, which is also in the process of building their own romanesque temple, on a smaller scale.
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« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2013, 10:22:26 AM »

God willing, one of the members of the ROCOR Western Rite Vicariate in the UK will visit the Vicariate's monastery in Germany sometime this summer and will come back with plenty of photographs and videos of their divine services. More to follow in due course.

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« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2013, 10:24:12 PM »

I believe many Americans fail to understand that despite influx of immigrants, globalization and secularization Byzantine rite or other Eastern rites are not as feasible option for many Western European people as Roman rite is. And this is true even without tinfoil theories about DNAs and essentialisms. It is really rather absurd to say anything contrary since Western and Central Europe has celebrated WR services for hundreds of years. It has probably never even occurred to most of the Western Europeans folks that Christianity isn't Western European religion. Cultures don't change overnight.

The hang-ups over this are really quite petty if one considers how Christianity- of any rite- has been introduced to cultures for which all forms of Christianity were equally alien. If someone is serious about the Gospel he will get over it. This agonizing over Western rite vs. Eastern rite is the height of self-absorption.

My current living situation is such that I have no access to a parish of my own tradition; luckily, there is a Coptic church close by, and an Armenian church not too much farther away, and so I attend both (mostly based at the former, though) in order to worship and for access to the sacraments.  In addition, there are EO churches nearby which I attend when the mood strikes me.  I'm familiar enough with Byzantine liturgy to feel comfortable.  The language is an issue with the Armenian Church, but the liturgy itself is like the love child of Byzantium and Syrian Antioch, so I'm fairly comfortable there too, and I'm getting there with the Coptic liturgy.  

In spite of my sinfulness, I like to think that I'm "serious about the Gospel", so I'm grateful to have such opportunities.  But I  don't believe my yearning for my own rite is "self-absorption".  I live my rite: it's how I pray, how I feast and fast, how I understand truth.  My rite is a type of incarnated Gospel for me.  There's smells, sights, sounds, texts, music, art, food, customs, and all sorts of things, large and small, which speak to me about Jesus in a way that "works" for me.  It's not so much self-absorption as it is a vehicle through which I'm working out my salvation with God.  

In all essentials, the Coptic, Armenian, and even Byzantine rites would accomplish the same goal, my sinfulness notwithstanding.  In fact, I depend on that for the duration of my "exile".  But I'll be honest, as comfortable as I am in these rites, it's still not "home".  I like the Coptic liturgy, and am beginning to pick up some of the singing, but I'm not terribly excited by the Agpeya.  I like the Byzantine rite, but there's something about the liturgy itself that always felt disjointed to me, like it was a bunch of pieces thrown together, but not necessarily well integrated (I prefer the office to the liturgy).  They're all Orthodox (to me as an OO anyway), definitely all Eastern, but I have a definite preference that goes beyond aesthetics.  I fully admit that they'll "get the job done", but my rite resonates with me better, and I reject the notion that it's a merely personal, aesthetic hang-up--there has to be a reason that the one gospel was preached all over the world but lived out in very different ways.    

Perhaps some will not understand that idea; maybe they are "cradles" for whom "it's all the same", or maybe they're "converts" whose background is less ritual and more denominational (e.g., there's no Southern Baptist Rite that I'm aware of).  But it doesn't mean that the issue doesn't exist for people raised in a rite, whether from childhood or conversion.  I can sympathise with Roman Catholics (and by extension Anglicans and others with "rites") who would want to hold onto the "Western" rite even while embracing the Orthodox faith.  The way they lived out the gospel up to that point was through those rites, and those rites were once Orthodox.  They're not bad, they are different.  And for them, that way "works".  Why should we complain?  We should help!

And I hope those who believe that "Western rite vs Eastern rite" is just a petty gripe are consistent when it comes to things like the language of the services in any given parish.  The exclusive use of Greek or Georgian in a parish here in the States will not prevent me from going to heaven, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't find English more useful.        

    

  

Very interesting.  Thanks for sharing!
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« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2013, 10:53:45 PM »

God willing, one of the members of the ROCOR Western Rite Vicariate in the UK will visit the Vicariate's monastery in Germany sometime this summer and will come back with plenty of photographs and videos of their divine services. More to follow in due course.

ROCORWRVUK

I would be interested in seeing the videos when you get back. 

Peace,
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« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2013, 03:46:15 AM »

God willing, one of the members of the ROCOR Western Rite Vicariate in the UK will visit the Vicariate's monastery in Germany sometime this summer and will come back with plenty of photographs and videos of their divine services. More to follow in due course.

ROCORWRVUK

I didn't know they have a monastery in Germany. Could you share any more info?
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« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2013, 04:56:54 PM »

God willing, one of the members of the ROCOR Western Rite Vicariate in the UK will visit the Vicariate's monastery in Germany sometime this summer and will come back with plenty of photographs and videos of their divine services. More to follow in due course.

ROCORWRVUK

I didn't know they have a monastery in Germany. Could you share any more info?

Christ is Risen!

The monastery was received into ROCOR earlier this year, during Vladyka Jerome's visit to Europe.

They currently have three priestmonks in residence, a fourth died earlier this year. The full Benedictine liturgical cycle is celebrated in Latin and German, alternating weekly.

Their details are:

Assumption of Mary Orthodox Monastery
Weserstr. 6
Porta Westfalica
Eisbergen
D-32457

Their guestmaster can be contacted at: kle-thomas@t-online.de

Hope this helps!

ROCORWRVUK
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« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2013, 05:07:42 PM »

Ty.
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