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Author Topic: Pagan/non-Christian elements allowed into Catholic Mass  (Read 6289 times) Average Rating: 0
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Romaios
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« Reply #180 on: April 02, 2013, 02:42:48 AM »

How many Catholic liturgies designed for the aborigine peoples have you actually attended?

None, nor would I attend any. They are way too ridden with modern politically-correct language for my taste.

I don't see anything wrong in the prayers in the Catholic liturgies designed for the aborigine peoples. In obedience to the command of Our Divine Lord and Savior to teach all nations, Catholic missionaries have studied the aborigine culture and religion in an attempt to avoid the tensions and misunderstandings which arose between the white settlers and the aborigines and to create an atmosphere in which the aborigines would be receptive to hearing the good news of the New Testament. As you know, the Australian aborigines have perhaps the world's oldest continuous culture and religion. They did not know how to write, but did paint complicated beautiful murals in caves. In aboriginal belief the spirits of the dead were present everywhere, guiding the living.

Things were done improperly in the first place - colonialism, forced conversions, kids separated from their parents and brought up in Catholic boarding-schools where they were forbidden to use their language or otherwise abused, etc. etc. Now, there's an 180o shift. Catholics felt like the best way to make amends is to alter their liturgy so as to include apologies for their past mistakes. I'm really sorry for these poor souls, but this watered-down Christianity is not helping anybody.  
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« Reply #181 on: April 02, 2013, 02:45:04 AM »

No demons can stand in a place where the name of the Lord is invoked and the sacraments offered.
Can an icon with Stalin stand in a place in Church?

Yes - as long as it's not an icon of Stalin.
OK, So you want to bring an icon with Stalin into the Orthodox Church. How many Orthodox Churches in Romania would have such an icon? Or is it something designed to appeal to those Russians who have a love for Stalin?
Here are some more examples of prayers which are said at Masses of Reconciliation for the Aborigines:

God of justice and forgiveness,
Guide us as we continue on our pathways to Reconciliation. Grant us the courage to speak out against the injustices that our Indigenous brothers and sisters continue to suffer. Help us to see with new eyes, to listen to the stories of our Indigenous brothers and sisters and to feel with a heart of compassion. Help us to build right relations with each other based on truth and justice. We ask this prayer through Christ our Lord, Amen.
Creator of all things,
Both seen and unseen.
Speak to us in your great wisdom.
Make us strong as we seek
Your help and guidance.
Teach us to love all people
Regardless of race or colour or belief.
Almighty and loving God,
you who created ALL people in your image,
Lead us to seek your compassion
as we listen to the stories of our past.
You gave your only Son, Jesus,
who died and rose again so that sins will be forgiven.
We place before you the pain and anguish
of dispossession of land, language, lore,
culture and family kinship
that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples
have experienced.
We live in faith that all people
will rise from the depths of despair and hopelessness.
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families
have endured the pain and loss of loved ones,
through the separation of children from their families.
We are sorry and ask God’s forgiveness.
Touch the hearts of the broken, homeless
and afflicted and heal their spirits.
In your mercy and compassion
walk with us as we continue our journey of healing
to create a future that is just and equitable.
Lord, you are our hope.
Amen.

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« Reply #182 on: April 02, 2013, 02:53:06 AM »

OK, So you want to bring an icon with Stalin into the Orthodox Church. How many Orthodox Churches in Romania would have such an icon? Or is it something designed to appeal to those Russians who have a love for Stalin?

Do go back and read the posts where the presence of Stalin in icons is discussed. You either can't, or won't, see the point, and it has absolutely nothing to do with "cultural appeal".
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 02:53:50 AM by LBK » Logged
Romaios
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« Reply #183 on: April 02, 2013, 03:02:53 AM »

OK, So you want to bring an icon with Stalin into the Orthodox Church. How many Orthodox Churches in Romania would have such an icon? Or is it something designed to appeal to those Russians who have a love for Stalin?

You apparently don't want to make the distinction between a depiction of Stalin in an icon and an icon of Stalin as a Saint.

In Romania St. Matrona is greatly revered by many Orthodox, especially since books about her life have been translated and many go on pilgrimages to her tomb. I've seen icons of her in churches - true, none where Stalin was depicted so far, but I would not be in any way outraged unless he was depicted with a halo.  

An icon of Stalin as a Saint would be equally outrageous in a Russian or Romanian Orthodox Church. The Russian Church canonized Saints who were martyred by Stalin. The second "icon" you posted I believe does not come from an Orthodox church where it is revered by the faithful - it's probably the equivalent of the Lentz icons produced by some nostalgic and misguided Communist soul.

Here are some more examples of prayers which are said at Masses of Reconciliation for the Aborigines:

I find them weird and unfit for liturgical use. Even if they speak the truth and have the noblest of intentions.    
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 03:08:07 AM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #184 on: April 02, 2013, 03:39:08 AM »

No demons can stand in a place where the name of the Lord is invoked and the sacraments offered.
Can an icon with Stalin stand in a place in Church?
I already answered you.

Can an icon with Satan be on a wall of a church?
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« Reply #185 on: April 02, 2013, 03:43:01 AM »

How many Catholic liturgies designed for the aborigine peoples have you actually attended?
How many have you?
I don't see anything wrong in the prayers in the Catholic liturgies designed for the aborigine peoples. In obedience to the command of Our Divine Lord and Savior to teach all nations, Catholic missionaries have studied the aborigine culture and religion in an attempt to avoid the tensions and misunderstandings which arose between the white settlers and the aborigines and to create an atmosphere in which the aborigines would be receptive to hearing the good news of the New Testament. As you know, the Australian aborigines have perhaps the world's oldest continuous culture and religion. They did not know how to write, but did paint complicated beautiful murals in caves. In aboriginal belief the spirits of the dead were present everywhere, guiding the living.

Not just 'guiding' but walking the earth, and interacting with nature. It's very much a 'nature' based belief system

Here are a few prayers from a Catholic liturgy on
National Aboriginal
And Torres Strait Islander Sunday:
[As you know, Water to Aboriginal people is always a sign of God’s peace and fulfillment in everything that is good; the promise of food, of harmony with ourselves, and the bush around us.]

Lord, make us feel your invitation to ‘come to the water’. At the very beginning you blessed the water, your great gift to us, and now we ask that your blessing be renewed in this water here today. We ask that through this water blessing we will all be renewed with your love, and protection, and your power to love one another as true Christians. Lord, this truly is a sign of the new life in Christ, which in Baptism we have all received.

We ask this through Jesus the Wise One.

All: Amen
Holy Father, God of Love, You are the Creator of this land and of all good things.
Our hope is in you because you gave your son Jesus to reconcile the world to you.
We pray for your strength and grace to forgive, accept and love one another, as you love us and forgive and accept us in the sacrifice of your son.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen
Holy Father, God of Love
You are the Creator of this land and all good things
We acknowledge the pain and shame of our history
And the suffering of our peoples.
And we ask your forgiveness.
We thank you for the survival of Indigenous cultures
Our hope is in you because you gave your son Jesus
To reconcile the world to you.
We pray for your strength and grace to forgive,
Accept and love one another,
As you love us and forgive and accept us
In the sacrifice of your Son.
Give us the courage to accept the realities of our history
So that we may build a better future for our nation.
Teach us to respect all cultures.
Teach us to care for our land and waters.
Help us to share justly the resources of this land.
Help us to bring about spiritual and social change
To improve the quality of life for all groups in our communities,
Especially the disadvantaged.
Help our young people to find true dignity and self esteem by your Spirit
May your power and love be the foundations
on which we build our families, our communities and our Nation.

Through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Amen

I'm not sure how ignoring the evidence I presented is addressed by you presenting a different prayer.
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« Reply #186 on: April 02, 2013, 03:43:45 AM »

OK, So you want to bring an icon with Stalin into the Orthodox Church. How many Orthodox Churches in Romania would have such an icon? Or is it something designed to appeal to those Russians who have a love for Stalin?

Do go back and read the posts where the presence of Stalin in icons is discussed. You either can't, or won't, see the point, and it has absolutely nothing to do with "cultural appeal".

Nor to the fact that Catholics must, according to his logic, worship Satan!
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« Reply #187 on: April 02, 2013, 03:46:22 AM »

I wonder if the Russian Orthodox missionaries to the Aleuts involved creating prayers with seals and whales?

What if I want to start an Orthodox mission in an inner city?  Do I modify Orthodox prayers to include heroin, crack, guns, Jerry Springer & Maury Povich?

Or do I stick with the existing prayers of the church and teaching people how to use them, like driving a car?

There's proper cathechesis and, as in the example of the Roman Catholic example of the Aborigines, improper cathechesis.
This of course is vicious anti-Catholic propaganda to imply that Catholics have modified their prayers to include heroin, crack, guns and Jerry Springer. There is no such thing.

The problem is in your reading of the post. It was a hypothetical put to you. And, why don't you modify things for these groups if you're arguing for the justification of doing so in dealing with Aborigines?

Are you saying God values drug addicts less than Aborigines?
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« Reply #188 on: April 02, 2013, 06:05:50 AM »

To get back to the original question of this post may I offer my humble opinion.

I am a Roman Catholic, and I hope a faithful one.  I find the "alteration" of the liturgy, as discussed in this thread, to be misguided and perhaps borderline heretical.  In the US where there are large Mexican populations some churches incorporate "Aztec" iconography. I always shuddered when I saw that sort of thing and in my own mind asked WHY. Is it really necessary to "pander" to race, or culture to get people to come to the mass is another question that has bothered me for a very long time.

Where I live now in Japan the liturgy is "simplified" and watered down.  When I asked my priest he said that Japan is considered a "mission" territory, and as such the local Bishops decide what liturgy is best to approach the population.  I once provided a traditional missal to a Japanese member and she was shocked at how strong the prayers were when compared to the Japanese. But, when compared to many masses that I have attended in the US the ones offered at my parish are 100 times more reverent.

All that said, I DO understand why cultural norms are incorporated, if for no other reason to make it all a bit more understandable to a culture to which Christianity is a weird otherworldly philosophy that has no counter in their own Shinto based culture.  There is no sin, or grace, for instance, and the concepts are difficult to explain, let alone convince people of their truth.

BUT this is the problem.  The original missionaries to Japan, the Jesuits and Franciscans who came here 400 years ago were quite traditional, and quite successful.  The modern missionaries not so much.  I think my church had 4 baptisms this year, so clearly catering to cultural sensitivities doesn't help much does it!

I think that my church should stop trying to be all things to all men and just be what they should be.  Present the truth and let it fall where it may.  People are not really looking for more of the same, but rather a truth greater than themselves and what they are comfortable with.  I am old enough to remember the pre Vat II mass, and although incomprehensible to me at the time it was beautiful and "divine" meaning not of my everyday world.  THAT is why tradition appeals to me, and perhaps others, The liturgy of 500 years should not be "tossed" to make it easier for the missions or to entertain those who have no sense of their own divine natures and cant be bothered to attend the sacrifice of the mass without it being "culturally" hip, cool, or up to date in their own minds.

Just my 2 cents, if it even amounts to that much.

W.Unland  
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« Reply #189 on: April 02, 2013, 06:40:47 AM »

To get back to the original question of this post may I offer my humble opinion.

I am a Roman Catholic, and I hope a faithful one.  I find the "alteration" of the liturgy, as discussed in this thread, to be misguided and perhaps borderline heretical.  In the US where there are large Mexican populations some churches incorporate "Aztec" iconography. I always shuddered when I saw that sort of thing and in my own mind asked WHY. Is it really necessary to "pander" to race, or culture to get people to come to the mass is another question that has bothered me for a very long time.

Where I live now in Japan the liturgy is "simplified" and watered down.  When I asked my priest he said that Japan is considered a "mission" territory, and as such the local Bishops decide what liturgy is best to approach the population.  I once provided a traditional missal to a Japanese member and she was shocked at how strong the prayers were when compared to the Japanese. But, when compared to many masses that I have attended in the US the ones offered at my parish are 100 times more reverent.

All that said, I DO understand why cultural norms are incorporated, if for no other reason to make it all a bit more understandable to a culture to which Christianity is a weird otherworldly philosophy that has no counter in their own Shinto based culture.  There is no sin, or grace, for instance, and the concepts are difficult to explain, let alone convince people of their truth.

BUT this is the problem.  The original missionaries to Japan, the Jesuits and Franciscans who came here 400 years ago were quite traditional, and quite successful.  The modern missionaries not so much.  I think my church had 4 baptisms this year, so clearly catering to cultural sensitivities doesn't help much does it!

I think that my church should stop trying to be all things to all men and just be what they should be.  Present the truth and let it fall where it may.  People are not really looking for more of the same, but rather a truth greater than themselves and what they are comfortable with.  I am old enough to remember the pre Vat II mass, and although incomprehensible to me at the time it was beautiful and "divine" meaning not of my everyday world.  THAT is why tradition appeals to me, and perhaps others, The liturgy of 500 years should not be "tossed" to make it easier for the missions or to entertain those who have no sense of their own divine natures and cant be bothered to attend the sacrifice of the mass without it being "culturally" hip, cool, or up to date in their own minds.

Just my 2 cents, if it even amounts to that much.

W.Unland  

I appreciate your frank post.

However to me the approach of the RCC that you talk of smacks of deception. People are being lured into the church and not being told upfront truly what proper worship is required.

I have believed for many years that the main goal of the RCC is to gain in numbers, only. That having the most Catholics (even if only nominal Catholics) is the end in itself.

To this end the RCC has made treaties with easterners and brought them into its church, allowing for married clergy it denies its own Roman rite adherents.

The worst aspect of this is allowing for 'pagan' elements into the church which is flirting with dangerous forces.
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« Reply #190 on: April 02, 2013, 09:24:43 AM »

I am also very interested to see the number of aborigines in Australia who are members of the Orthodox Church. Would it be about 50 souls?

Why don't you take your request to the Census Bureau? Strangers on the internet are not going to know more than the appropriate government agency.

The Orthodox Church arrived in Australia with immigrants, itself poor and persecuted, and concentrated in comforting its own uprooted people first. Charity begins at home. Plus, the Orthodox style of evangelising is much more 'Come and see' than 'Hear ye, hear ye!'
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« Reply #191 on: April 02, 2013, 10:17:38 AM »

To get back to the original question of this post may I offer my humble opinion.

I am a Roman Catholic, and I hope a faithful one.  I find the "alteration" of the liturgy, as discussed in this thread, to be misguided and perhaps borderline heretical.  In the US where there are large Mexican populations some churches incorporate "Aztec" iconography. I always shuddered when I saw that sort of thing and in my own mind asked WHY. Is it really necessary to "pander" to race, or culture to get people to come to the mass is another question that has bothered me for a very long time.

Where I live now in Japan the liturgy is "simplified" and watered down.  When I asked my priest he said that Japan is considered a "mission" territory, and as such the local Bishops decide what liturgy is best to approach the population.  I once provided a traditional missal to a Japanese member and she was shocked at how strong the prayers were when compared to the Japanese. But, when compared to many masses that I have attended in the US the ones offered at my parish are 100 times more reverent.

All that said, I DO understand why cultural norms are incorporated, if for no other reason to make it all a bit more understandable to a culture to which Christianity is a weird otherworldly philosophy that has no counter in their own Shinto based culture.  There is no sin, or grace, for instance, and the concepts are difficult to explain, let alone convince people of their truth.

BUT this is the problem.  The original missionaries to Japan, the Jesuits and Franciscans who came here 400 years ago were quite traditional, and quite successful.  The modern missionaries not so much.  I think my church had 4 baptisms this year, so clearly catering to cultural sensitivities doesn't help much does it!

I think that my church should stop trying to be all things to all men and just be what they should be.  Present the truth and let it fall where it may.  People are not really looking for more of the same, but rather a truth greater than themselves and what they are comfortable with.  I am old enough to remember the pre Vat II mass, and although incomprehensible to me at the time it was beautiful and "divine" meaning not of my everyday world.  THAT is why tradition appeals to me, and perhaps others, The liturgy of 500 years should not be "tossed" to make it easier for the missions or to entertain those who have no sense of their own divine natures and cant be bothered to attend the sacrifice of the mass without it being "culturally" hip, cool, or up to date in their own minds.

Just my 2 cents, if it even amounts to that much.

W.Unland  

I appreciate your frank post.

However to me the approach of the RCC that you talk of smacks of deception. People are being lured into the church and not being told upfront truly what proper worship is required.

I have believed for many years that the main goal of the RCC is to gain in numbers, only. That having the most Catholics (even if only nominal Catholics) is the end in itself.

To this end the RCC has made treaties with easterners and brought them into its church, allowing for married clergy it denies its own Roman rite adherents.

The worst aspect of this is allowing for 'pagan' elements into the church which is flirting with dangerous forces.

If I may add: The RCC also allowed them to keep their own beliefs about opposing doctrines, eg IC, Essense/Energies, transubstantiation, to name just a few. (parallel theologies)
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« Reply #192 on: April 02, 2013, 02:16:35 PM »

Is the Stalin icon with St. Matrona approved by the Church? It was placed in an Orthodox Church by a priest.

The priest in question was later deposed or at least suspended for that. Answer for your yourself.

I wonder if the Russian Orthodox missionaries to the Aleuts involved creating prayers with seals and whales?

I've read somewhere "seal meat" replaced "bread" in Lord's prayer in some Aleuta languages because they didn't know what bread is. Not sure if this was for real, though.
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« Reply #193 on: April 02, 2013, 03:01:05 PM »

No demons can stand in a place where the name of the Lord is invoked and the sacraments offered.
Can an icon with Stalin stand in a place in Church?

Yes - as long as it's not an icon of Stalin.
OK, So you want to bring an icon with Stalin into the Orthodox Church. How many Orthodox Churches in Romania would have such an icon? Or is it something designed to appeal to those Russians who have a love for Stalin?
Here are some more examples of prayers which are said at Masses of Reconciliation for the Aborigines:

God of justice and forgiveness,
Guide us as we continue on our pathways to Reconciliation. Grant us the courage to speak out against the injustices that our Indigenous brothers and sisters continue to suffer. Help us to see with new eyes, to listen to the stories of our Indigenous brothers and sisters and to feel with a heart of compassion. Help us to build right relations with each other based on truth and justice. We ask this prayer through Christ our Lord, Amen.
Creator of all things,
Both seen and unseen.
Speak to us in your great wisdom.
Make us strong as we seek
Your help and guidance.
Teach us to love all people
Regardless of race or colour or belief.
Almighty and loving God,
you who created ALL people in your image,
Lead us to seek your compassion
as we listen to the stories of our past.
You gave your only Son, Jesus,
who died and rose again so that sins will be forgiven.
We place before you the pain and anguish
of dispossession of land, language, lore,
culture and family kinship
that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples
have experienced.
We live in faith that all people
will rise from the depths of despair and hopelessness.
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families
have endured the pain and loss of loved ones,
through the separation of children from their families.
We are sorry and ask God’s forgiveness.
Touch the hearts of the broken, homeless
and afflicted and heal their spirits.
In your mercy and compassion
walk with us as we continue our journey of healing
to create a future that is just and equitable.
Lord, you are our hope.
Amen.

Less is more. 
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« Reply #194 on: April 02, 2013, 03:09:58 PM »

I wonder if the Russian Orthodox missionaries to the Aleuts involved creating prayers with seals and whales?

What if I want to start an Orthodox mission in an inner city?  Do I modify Orthodox prayers to include heroin, crack, guns, Jerry Springer & Maury Povich?

Or do I stick with the existing prayers of the church and teaching people how to use them, like driving a car?

There's proper cathechesis and, as in the example of the Roman Catholic example of the Aborigines, improper cathechesis.
This of course is vicious anti-Catholic propaganda to imply that Catholics have modified their prayers to include heroin, crack, guns and Jerry Springer. There is no such thing.

Where did I say that RCs modified their prayers as you said so?  I was drawing an analogy to how the Russians evangelized the Aleuts vs. how Roman Catholics, among others, persecuted the Aborigines.  The RCs come up with wordy prayers as an apology to the Aborigines rather than evangelizing from the Gospel.

Why are you avoiding LBK's questions on Lentz?
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« Reply #195 on: April 02, 2013, 04:03:35 PM »

Is the Stalin icon with St. Matrona approved by the Church? It was placed in an Orthodox Church by a priest.

The priest in question was later deposed or at least suspended for that.
If there was nothing wrong with the icon, then why was the priest suspended for putting up this icon?
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« Reply #196 on: April 02, 2013, 04:08:15 PM »

Is the Stalin icon with St. Matrona approved by the Church? It was placed in an Orthodox Church by a priest.

The priest in question was later deposed or at least suspended for that.
If there was nothing wrong with the icon, then why was the priest suspended for putting up this icon?

The stir.
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« Reply #197 on: April 02, 2013, 07:01:27 PM »

Is the Stalin icon with St. Matrona approved by the Church? It was placed in an Orthodox Church by a priest.

The priest in question was later deposed or at least suspended for that.
If there was nothing wrong with the icon, then why was the priest suspended for putting up this icon?

Why do Catholics (according to your theory) worship Satan by depicting him in holy paintings?
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« Reply #198 on: April 02, 2013, 07:02:34 PM »

Is the Stalin icon with St. Matrona approved by the Church? It was placed in an Orthodox Church by a priest.

The priest in question was later deposed or at least suspended for that.
If there was nothing wrong with the icon, then why was the priest suspended for putting up this icon?

What your post is doing is confusing the issue on separate icons of Stalin.

One has a saint, and it's been explained that she is the object of veneration.

The other is one supposedly of just Stalin. Which is controversial.

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« Reply #199 on: April 02, 2013, 07:53:45 PM »

To get back to the original question of this post may I offer my humble opinion.

I am a Roman Catholic, and I hope a faithful one.  I find the "alteration" of the liturgy, as discussed in this thread, to be misguided and perhaps borderline heretical.  In the US where there are large Mexican populations some churches incorporate "Aztec" iconography. I always shuddered when I saw that sort of thing and in my own mind asked WHY. Is it really necessary to "pander" to race, or culture to get people to come to the mass is another question that has bothered me for a very long time.

Where I live now in Japan the liturgy is "simplified" and watered down.  When I asked my priest he said that Japan is considered a "mission" territory, and as such the local Bishops decide what liturgy is best to approach the population.  I once provided a traditional missal to a Japanese member and she was shocked at how strong the prayers were when compared to the Japanese. But, when compared to many masses that I have attended in the US the ones offered at my parish are 100 times more reverent.

All that said, I DO understand why cultural norms are incorporated, if for no other reason to make it all a bit more understandable to a culture to which Christianity is a weird otherworldly philosophy that has no counter in their own Shinto based culture.  There is no sin, or grace, for instance, and the concepts are difficult to explain, let alone convince people of their truth.

BUT this is the problem.  The original missionaries to Japan, the Jesuits and Franciscans who came here 400 years ago were quite traditional, and quite successful.  The modern missionaries not so much.  I think my church had 4 baptisms this year, so clearly catering to cultural sensitivities doesn't help much does it!

I think that my church should stop trying to be all things to all men and just be what they should be.  Present the truth and let it fall where it may.  People are not really looking for more of the same, but rather a truth greater than themselves and what they are comfortable with.  I am old enough to remember the pre Vat II mass, and although incomprehensible to me at the time it was beautiful and "divine" meaning not of my everyday world.  THAT is why tradition appeals to me, and perhaps others, The liturgy of 500 years should not be "tossed" to make it easier for the missions or to entertain those who have no sense of their own divine natures and cant be bothered to attend the sacrifice of the mass without it being "culturally" hip, cool, or up to date in their own minds.

Just my 2 cents, if it even amounts to that much.

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Paul VI even admitted to his good friend Jean Guitton that his intention in changing the Mass was to make it Protestant.

 

Jean Guitton (an intimate friend of Paul VI) wrote: “The intention of Pope Paul VI with regard to what is commonly called the [New] Mass, was to reform the Catholic liturgy in such a way that it should almost coincide with the Protestant liturgy.  There was with Pope Paul VI an ecumenical intention to remove, or, at least to correct, or, at least to relax, what was too Catholic in the traditional sense in the Mass and, I repeat, to get the Catholic Mass closer to the Calvinist Mass
 You have been asked before to refer to  clergy  with their respective titles. 20 days of moderation (that means your posts will have to be approved by a moderator before being published) - MK.
 Moderation reverted because it was a violation of another one rule -MK.
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« Reply #200 on: April 02, 2013, 08:29:26 PM »

Is the Stalin icon with St. Matrona approved by the Church? It was placed in an Orthodox Church by a priest.

You mean the St. Matrona icon with Stalin?

You are seriously grasping at straws, here.
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« Reply #201 on: April 03, 2013, 12:51:58 AM »

Is the Stalin icon with St. Matrona approved by the Church? It was placed in an Orthodox Church by a priest.

The priest in question was later deposed or at least suspended for that.
If there was nothing wrong with the icon, then why was the priest suspended for putting up this icon?
Stanley, you've been trying for the whole duration of this thread to deflect montalban's questions with counter-questions of your own. Your efforts to deflect questions you don't like have only served to derail this thread. Therefore, I ask that you engage montalban directly without any more of your dodge ball games. The question you need to answer is this: Do you think it's a good idea for Catholic churches to introduce pagan elements into their Mass?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 01:00:55 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #202 on: April 03, 2013, 02:37:00 AM »

Is the Stalin icon with St. Matrona approved by the Church? It was placed in an Orthodox Church by a priest.

The priest in question was later deposed or at least suspended for that.
If there was nothing wrong with the icon, then why was the priest suspended for putting up this icon?
Stanley, you've been trying for the whole duration of this thread to deflect montalban's questions with counter-questions of your own. Your efforts to deflect questions you don't like have only served to derail this thread. Therefore, I ask that you engage montalban directly without any more of your dodge ball games. The question you need to answer is this: Do you think it's a good idea for Catholic churches to introduce pagan elements into their Mass?
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify things.
I thought that I had already answered that I do not see anything wrong with it. Please see reply #176. As concerned the aborigine Catholic Mass, I thought it was a good idea.  In support of my assertion that there is nothing wrong with it,  I presented a number of items:
1. The aborigine Catholic liturgy itself does not present anything harmful to Christian thought or belief, but still brings the message of Christ to the native peoples.
2.  Aborigines are somewhat distrustful of the white settlers and their ways and this may explain why a Church which does not understand the aborigine customs may not be so successful in receiving aborigines. The aborigines remember several clashes with the whites, such as for example,  the battle of 1834 which as fought at Pinjarra, 50 miles south of Perth, where a party of police and white settlers attacked and killed about 50 aborigines. 
3. Pagan practices are not wrong if they are adapted to the Christian story. The Orthodox Church, as well as other Christian Churches, have adopted several practices which were practiced by pagans and then brought into the Church. I listed these as:
a. Men removing their hats in Church, which the Jewish encyclopedia says was a pagan practice.
b. Introducing evergreen trees into Church.
c. The use of incense, which was first used by pagans.
d. The handing out of colored eggs.
4. I mentioned the icon with Stalin and St. Madrona  as an indication of inculturation in the Russian Orthodox Church. A few posters here say that there is nothing wrong with this icon. However, I would question that because a priest has been suspended for displaying the icon. If there was nothing wrong with the icon, why then suspend a priest for displaying the icon?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 02:39:41 AM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #203 on: April 03, 2013, 02:53:14 AM »

Is the Stalin icon with St. Matrona approved by the Church? It was placed in an Orthodox Church by a priest.

The priest in question was later deposed or at least suspended for that.
If there was nothing wrong with the icon, then why was the priest suspended for putting up this icon?
Stanley, you've been trying for the whole duration of this thread to deflect montalban's questions with counter-questions of your own. Your efforts to deflect questions you don't like have only served to derail this thread. Therefore, I ask that you engage montalban directly without any more of your dodge ball games. The question you need to answer is this: Do you think it's a good idea for Catholic churches to introduce pagan elements into their Mass?
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify things.
I thought that I had already answered that I do not see anything wrong with it. Please see reply #176. As concerned the aborigine Catholic Mass, I thought it was a good idea.  In support of my assertion that there is nothing wrong with it,  I presented a number of items:
1. The aborigine Catholic liturgy itself does not present anything harmful to Christian thought or belief, but still brings the message of Christ to the native peoples.
2.  Aborigines are somewhat distrustful of the white settlers and their ways and this may explain why a Church which does not understand the aborigine customs may not be so successful in receiving aborigines. The aborigines remember several clashes with the whites, such as for example,  the battle of 1834 which as fought at Pinjarra, 50 miles south of Perth, where a party of police and white settlers attacked and killed about 50 aborigines.  
3. Pagan practices are not wrong if they are adapted to the Christian story. The Orthodox Church, as well as other Christian Churches, have adopted several practices which were practiced by pagans and then brought into the Church. I listed these as:
a. Men removing their hats in Church, which the Jewish encyclopedia says was a pagan practice.
b. Introducing evergreen trees into Church.
c. The use of incense, which was first used by pagans.
d. The handing out of colored eggs.
4. I mentioned the icon with Stalin and St. Madrona  as an indication of inculturation in the Russian Orthodox Church. A few posters here say that there is nothing wrong with this icon. However, I would question that because a priest has been suspended for displaying the icon. If there was nothing wrong with the icon, why then suspend a priest for displaying the icon?


Still waiting for an answer to my questions on the images of Apache Christ, Celtic Trinity and Quetzalcoatl Christ in post #142 and earlier. They are directly relevant to the thread topic, and to your responses on this thread.

Here is a link to post #142:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50510.msg904823.html#msg904823
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 02:53:58 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #204 on: April 03, 2013, 03:49:01 AM »

1. The aborigine Catholic liturgy itself does not present anything harmful to Christian thought or belief, but still brings the message of Christ to the native peoples.

It has been pointed out that the smoking ceremony and what Aborigines believe about their ancestral spirits and about their ties to their land contradicts Christian belief.

2.  Aborigines are somewhat distrustful of the white settlers and their ways and this may explain why a Church which does not understand the aborigine customs may not be so successful in receiving aborigines. The aborigines remember several clashes with the whites, such as for example,  the battle of 1834 which as fought at Pinjarra, 50 miles south of Perth, where a party of police and white settlers attacked and killed about 50 aborigines.  

The bolded section is not only unwarranted speculation, but yet another cheap smear of the Orthodox Church. The history of the church in Australia has been outlined in various posts. In short, it is quite the minority compared to other Christian denominations in that country, and its presence in that country has been quite short. Yet, an Aboriginal mission has been set up by the Orthodox there, and I would bet my house that there's no way a smoking ceremony would find its way into any liturgy conducted by that mission.

On the matter of Aborigines suffering at the hands of white settlers, evidence has been presented which shows Catholic institutions, among others, having perpetrated such things as forced conversions, and the forced removal of indigenous children from their families. The RCC is not blameless in this regard.

4. I mentioned the icon with Stalin and St. Madrona  as an indication of inculturation in the Russian Orthodox Church. A few posters here say that there is nothing wrong with this icon. However, I would question that because a priest has been suspended for displaying the icon. If there was nothing wrong with the icon, why then suspend a priest for displaying the icon?

The display of the image of St Matrona and Stalin has absolutely nothing, nothing, to do with inculturation. That image was taken from a much larger icon which shows events from St Matrona's life. Given the outrage which would have greeted the mere idea of any image of Stalin hanging in an Orthodox church which Russians who have lived through Stalin's reign (many are still alive, in Russia and abroad), whether haloed or not, the scandal and disorder in the parish generated by this act would, in itself, be quite enough reason for the priest to be penalized for his provocative action.

If he had simply displayed a life icon of St Matrona, even if it included the panel featuring Stalin, the outcry might have been diminished or avoided, just as icons featuring demons or Satan, such as seen in icons of the Last Judgement, are displayed without a second thought. But he did not do this: he put up an enlargement of only that panel, which wrenched that image right out of its original context, causing the outcry that ensued.

Any images showing Stalin bearing a halo have been swiftly and unequivocally condemned by the Orthodox Church wherever and whenever they have appeared.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 04:01:24 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #205 on: April 03, 2013, 05:31:38 AM »

4. I mentioned the icon with Stalin and St. Madrona  as an indication of inculturation in the Russian Orthodox Church. A few posters here say that there is nothing wrong with this icon. However, I would question that because a priest has been suspended for displaying the icon. If there was nothing wrong with the icon, why then suspend a priest for displaying the icon?


Come come, my dear fellow. You were addressed on this, but you've insisted on repeating a charge. So, in an effort to demonstrate your own self-defeating argument I put it to you that by having Satan in one of your own icons you worship Satan...

Or, are you now saying Satan is included as an effort of inculturation? You have repeatedly ignored that.

You're trying to suggest that an icon of Christ as one of worship in a Catholic church is the same as an icon that features Stalin (WHO IS NOT WORSHIPPED NOR VENERATED).

Your posts consist of trying to link these two things.

The other points on incense etc. were also addressed ages ago.
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« Reply #206 on: April 03, 2013, 05:35:33 AM »


Still waiting for an answer to my questions on the images of Apache Christ, Celtic Trinity and Quetzalcoatl Christ in post #142 and earlier. They are directly relevant to the thread topic, and to your responses on this thread.

Here is a link to post #142:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50510.msg904823.html#msg904823

He's trying to suggest that an icon of Christ as an Apache is the same as any figure in an icon that is not worshipped or venerated, such as sheep, cattle, Satan etc.

One must think that he believes that all that is depicted are venerated... which goes back to the question I've posed him... does he think Catholics worship Satan... as Satan is depicted in Catholic pictures.
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« Reply #207 on: April 03, 2013, 05:45:40 AM »


Still waiting for an answer to my questions on the images of Apache Christ, Celtic Trinity and Quetzalcoatl Christ in post #142 and earlier. They are directly relevant to the thread topic, and to your responses on this thread.

Here is a link to post #142:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50510.msg904823.html#msg904823

He's trying to suggest that an icon of Christ as an Apache is the same as any figure in an icon that is not worshipped or venerated, such as sheep, cattle, Satan etc.

One must think that he believes that all that is depicted are venerated... which goes back to the question I've posed him... does he think Catholics worship Satan... as Satan is depicted in Catholic pictures.

The purpose of my posting those images is to seek stanley123's answer on whether he considers it permissible for Christ to be portrayed in ahistoric and pagan form, for the Holy Trinity to be depicted as a trio of multiracial women surrounded by a pagan symbol, and for Christ to be painted as a Mesoamerican (pagan) god.
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« Reply #208 on: April 03, 2013, 05:47:17 AM »

2.  Aborigines are somewhat distrustful of the white settlers and their ways and this may explain why a Church which does not understand the aborigine customs may not be so successful in receiving aborigines. The aborigines remember several clashes with the whites, such as for example,  the battle of 1834 which as fought at Pinjarra, 50 miles south of Perth, where a party of police and white settlers attacked and killed about 50 aborigines. 


There were many battles (read 'massacres') the most recent being at Coniston (in the Northern Territory) in 1928.

Catholic and Protestant missions actively took (stole) Aboriginal children from their families. This is known as the "Stolen Generation" (which I linked to earlier).

Any 'mistrust' already exists in the very 'missions' Catholics have had for Aborigines.

What you seem to be saying is that because of the mistrust the Catholic church has built between it and indigenous communities it now must bend over backwards and introduce aboriginal custom into churches?

What you seem to be doing is giving an excuse (valid as you think it is) for the very problems of allowing non-Christian forms of worship into the Mass

You have no problem with having a church 'of God' mixing with a church of 'ancestral spirits in nature'.
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« Reply #209 on: April 03, 2013, 05:48:58 AM »


Still waiting for an answer to my questions on the images of Apache Christ, Celtic Trinity and Quetzalcoatl Christ in post #142 and earlier. They are directly relevant to the thread topic, and to your responses on this thread.

Here is a link to post #142:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50510.msg904823.html#msg904823

He's trying to suggest that an icon of Christ as an Apache is the same as any figure in an icon that is not worshipped or venerated, such as sheep, cattle, Satan etc.

One must think that he believes that all that is depicted are venerated... which goes back to the question I've posed him... does he think Catholics worship Satan... as Satan is depicted in Catholic pictures.

The purpose of my posting those images is to seek stanley123's answer on whether he considers it permissible for Christ to be portrayed in ahistoric and pagan form, for the Holy Trinity to be depicted as a trio of multiracial women surrounded by a pagan symbol, and for Christ to be painted as a Mesoamerican (pagan) god.

Yes, I don't understand why he confuses

'object of veneration' and

'object in icon not venerated'

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« Reply #210 on: April 03, 2013, 05:59:26 AM »


Still waiting for an answer to my questions on the images of Apache Christ, Celtic Trinity and Quetzalcoatl Christ in post #142 and earlier. They are directly relevant to the thread topic, and to your responses on this thread.

Here is a link to post #142:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50510.msg904823.html#msg904823

He's trying to suggest that an icon of Christ as an Apache is the same as any figure in an icon that is not worshipped or venerated, such as sheep, cattle, Satan etc.

One must think that he believes that all that is depicted are venerated... which goes back to the question I've posed him... does he think Catholics worship Satan... as Satan is depicted in Catholic pictures.

The purpose of my posting those images is to seek stanley123's answer on whether he considers it permissible for Christ to be portrayed in ahistoric and pagan form, for the Holy Trinity to be depicted as a trio of multiracial women surrounded by a pagan symbol, and for Christ to be painted as a Mesoamerican (pagan) god.

Yes, I don't understand why he confuses

'object of veneration' and

'object in icon not venerated'



This Stanley does, but I would like to know how he regards these images, painted by someone of his faith tradition, which portray Christ and the Holy Trinity in pagan terms and forms.
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« Reply #211 on: April 04, 2013, 07:25:37 PM »


This Stanley does, but I would like to know how he regards these images, painted by someone of his faith tradition, which portray Christ and the Holy Trinity in pagan terms and forms.

How are we going with this?
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« Reply #212 on: April 04, 2013, 11:33:32 PM »


This Stanley does, but I would like to know how he regards these images, painted by someone of his faith tradition, which portray Christ and the Holy Trinity in pagan terms and forms.

How are we going with this?

Silence from Stanley so far.  Sad
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« Reply #213 on: April 04, 2013, 11:52:27 PM »


This Stanley does, but I would like to know how he regards these images, painted by someone of his faith tradition, which portray Christ and the Holy Trinity in pagan terms and forms.

How are we going with this?

Silence from Stanley so far.  Sad

Looks you you'll have to (sacred) smoke him out
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« Reply #214 on: April 05, 2013, 12:28:02 AM »


This Stanley does, but I would like to know how he regards these images, painted by someone of his faith tradition, which portray Christ and the Holy Trinity in pagan terms and forms.

How are we going with this?

Silence from Stanley so far.  Sad

Looks you you'll have to (sacred) smoke him out

 laugh laugh laugh
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