Pagan/non-Christian elements allowed into Catholic Mass

[stanley123]

Go back and read montalban's posts, and the links he and I have provided. Compare the history and size of the Orthodox church in Australia with that of the RCC, and the length of time of European settlement of that country. Then come back to us.

One thing which I'm completely certain of: There's no way in the world a pagan smoking ceremony, or other such non-Christian ritual, would be allowed to take place within any Orthodox church, either as part of a service, or outside of it. Montalban has nailed why such things are wrong to be incorporated into Christian worship, but you cannot, or will not, see the point.

I thought I had answered it! Less than 3% compared to 26.6%*, and in effect more than 220 years compared to 70


*
http://www.catholicaustralia.com.au/page.php?pg=austchurch-survey

I don't see the number of aborigines who are members of the Orthodox church. The number of Orthodox may constitute 3% of the population of Australia, but that does not tell me how many of those are aborigines. The link you give says that 26.6% of the Australians are Catholics. "According to the 2001 Australian Census, the Catholic population was 5,001,624 or 26.6% of the total Australian population."
How many of the aborigines are members of the Orthodox Church?

 

[JoeS2]

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/INCENSE.HTM

 You are warned for a week for not providing me with a synopsis of the link you posted. It is against oc.net rules to post links without an explanation.  I asked you for this days ago and you have not responded.

[sedevacantist]

What do Orthodox (and Catholics) think about the Catholic Mass allowing pagan/non-Christian elements into it?

Here in Australia the Catholic church has allowed Aboriginal 'smoking ceremonies' into the mass. These 'smoking ceremonies' involve a cleansing smoke that chases out bad spirits.

Do you think it's a good idea?


"The Smoking Ceremony is one of the oldest living traditions celebrated by Aboriginal people. Our ancestors handed down to us the belief that ceremonies should begin with the smoking away of evil spirits, followed by the reception of good spirits. Many Liturgies prepared by the Aboriginal Catholic Ministry begin with a Smoking Ceremony."
http://www.cam.org.au/acmv/Invisible-no-more.aspx

I'm assuming that this site is linked to the church, if not I can provide other references

I must correct you, it's not the Catholic Church that is allowing these pagan practices, but the vatican 2 sect with their heretical popes that are doing it, they are Catholic in name only, the new mass instituted by Pope Paul V1 in 1969 was done with the aid of 6 protestant ministers, their goal was to remove what was too catholic from the mass, it's imperative for you to investigate this your self for your salvation

[montalban]

I don't see the number of aborigines who are members of the Orthodox church. The number of Orthodox may constitute 3% of the population of Australia, but that does not tell me how many of those are aborigines. The link you give says that 26.6% of the Australians are Catholics. "According to the 2001 Australian Census, the Catholic population was 5,001,624 or 26.6% of the total Australian population."
How many of the aborigines are members of the Orthodox Church?

 

You've already been answered several times. I indulged your question, but it's off-topic.

[montalban]

What do Orthodox (and Catholics) think about the Catholic Mass allowing pagan/non-Christian elements into it?

Here in Australia the Catholic church has allowed Aboriginal 'smoking ceremonies' into the mass. These 'smoking ceremonies' involve a cleansing smoke that chases out bad spirits.

Do you think it's a good idea?


"The Smoking Ceremony is one of the oldest living traditions celebrated by Aboriginal people. Our ancestors handed down to us the belief that ceremonies should begin with the smoking away of evil spirits, followed by the reception of good spirits. Many Liturgies prepared by the Aboriginal Catholic Ministry begin with a Smoking Ceremony."
http://www.cam.org.au/acmv/Invisible-no-more.aspx

I'm assuming that this site is linked to the church, if not I can provide other references

I must correct you, it's not the Catholic Church that is allowing these pagan practices, but the vatican 2 sect with their heretical popes that are doing it, they are Catholic in name only, the new mass instituted by Pope Paul V1 in 1969 was done with the aid of 6 protestant ministers, their goal was to remove what was too catholic from the mass, it's imperative for you to investigate this your self for your salvation

I provided evidence of the Catholic church allowing Aboriginal custom even earlier.

But Vatican 2 only accelerated this.

I felt some of the effects of Vatican 2 as a child. I recall going to my church (St. Josephs, Enfield; suburban Sydney) and seeing on Mass where a long-haired guy looking like Jesus sat at the front of the church with an acoustic guitar. Instead of the old hymns he lead us in new 'hymns' such as the Beatles' "Let it Be"!

[LBK]

I felt some of the effects of Vatican 2 as a child. I recall going to my church (St. Josephs, Enfield; suburban Sydney) and seeing on Mass where a long-haired guy looking like Jesus sat at the front of the church with an acoustic guitar. Instead of the old hymns he lead us in new 'hymns' such as the Beatles' "Let it Be"!

Well, what was it that John Lennon once said that got him in the soup? 

[montalban]

I felt some of the effects of Vatican 2 as a child. I recall going to my church (St. Josephs, Enfield; suburban Sydney) and seeing on Mass where a long-haired guy looking like Jesus sat at the front of the church with an acoustic guitar. Instead of the old hymns he lead us in new 'hymns' such as the Beatles' "Let it Be"!

Well, what was it that John Lennon once said that got him in the soup? 

In a sad sense he was right - youth today (whilst not necessarily following the Beatles) follow things other than Christ.

Our church mistook the song as a hymn because of lines like "Mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom" - but it's about Paul's mother Mary. And Paul had given up on Catholicism. Interestingly his reasoning is quite spurious. I've just finished reading The Beatles (Updated Edition) by Hunter Davies. In it McCartney basically says that he really needed God, and he prayed and God didn't answer, therefore he gave up on God! I remain a huge Beatles fan. The Beatles themselves are disappointing people.

Another sign of the state of the Catholic church is the way of Catholic apology. Instead of being able to address why they allow pagan elements into the church we're being segued into examining Orthodoxy in Australia.

[LBK]

Stanley, you wrote in post #93:

Catholics in Australia were concerned with the many Aborigines there and the possibility that they could find a welcome in the Church. The question that was being asked was: 'What was Mother Church doing to show care for her many Aboriginal children, who treasured their Baptism but did not find a place in her churches and liturgy?' Was the European culture a bit too foreign for them to accept?  Pope John Paul II said: "The Church invites you to express the living words of Jesus in ways that speak to your Aboriginal minds and hearts. All over the world people worship God and read his word in their own language, and colour the great signs and symbols of religion with touches of their own traditions. Why should you be different from them in this regard, why should you not be allowed the happiness of being with God and each other in Aboriginal fashion?"
As I tried to point out above, in the past, symbols from pagan religions have been adopted and modified and incoporated into Christian worship. Why should the Aborigines be any different?

Here are examples of "icons" painted by a Catholic artist to deliberately reflect "cultural relevance" and to "speak to" various peoples in their own "cultural language".

Apache Christ:



Celtic Trinity



Quetzalcoatl Christ



Tell me, Stanley, do you find these images acceptable? Would you welcome their presence in your church? If not, why not?

[montalban]

Yikes!

[Keble]

Please don't seriously suggest that there is any kind of general acceptance of Robert Lentz's crazy images in Roman Catholicism.

[LBK]

Please don't seriously suggest that there is any kind of general acceptance of Robert Lentz's crazy images in Roman Catholicism.

I'm holding back my answer to this, pending stanley123's response to my earlier post.

[stanley123]

I don't see the number of aborigines who are members of the Orthodox church. The number of Orthodox may constitute 3% of the population of Australia, but that does not tell me how many of those are aborigines. The link you give says that 26.6% of the Australians are Catholics. "According to the 2001 Australian Census, the Catholic population was 5,001,624 or 26.6% of the total Australian population."
How many of the aborigines are members of the Orthodox Church?

 

You've already been answered several times. I indulged your question, but it's off-topic.

Not really. No one seems to know the number of aborigines who are members of the Orthodox Church. You say 3%. But that could be 3% of 90 or 3% of 9000.

[orthonorm]

Please don't seriously suggest that there is any kind of general acceptance of Robert Lentz's crazy images in Roman Catholicism.

Yeah, cause laser guided doves hurtling at saints ain't crazy at all.

[J Michael]

Please don't seriously suggest that there is any kind of general acceptance of Robert Lentz's crazy images in Roman Catholicism.

Well, I'm no "Roman" Catholic, but the first and only place I've ever encountered his goofy images was on.........................orthodoxchristianity.net.  Go figure.   Never seen them anywhere else that I can recall, and I hope I don't  .

[stanley123]

Here are examples of "icons" painted by a Catholic artist to deliberately reflect "cultural relevance" and to "speak to" various peoples in their own "cultural language". ....
....Tell me, Stanley, do you find these images acceptable? Would you welcome their presence in your church? If not, why not?

Here is an example of a reflection of cultural relevance in an Orthodox Church:

[biro]

I read a book by Lentz. Most of it is, yes, pretty bizarre. I was Roman Catholic for a lot of years, and I must say I never saw his paintings in any of the parishes I went to. I think they'd only be popular with dissenters and those who aren't even in the RCC or ECC. Never saw them in my relatives' homes, either. They always had standard stuff (for them), like the Sacred Heart or a saint.

[orthonorm]

Here are examples of "icons" painted by a Catholic artist to deliberately reflect "cultural relevance" and to "speak to" various peoples in their own "cultural language". ....
....Tell me, Stanley, do you find these images acceptable? Would you welcome their presence in your church? If not, why not?

Here is an example of a reflection of cultural relevance in an Orthodox Church:

Good for you stan.

[montalban]

Please don't seriously suggest that there is any kind of general acceptance of Robert Lentz's crazy images in Roman Catholicism.

Well, I'm no "Roman" Catholic, but the first and only place I've ever encountered his goofy images was on.........................orthodoxchristianity.net.  Go figure.   Never seen them anywhere else that I can recall, and I hope I don't  .

Certainly it's here that I first encountered this 'icon'. However one can purchase this (I loathe to mention this as I'm not promoting it; just evidencing it exists) here
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/search/art?keys=apache+christ

However I am NOT saying this site is affilated with the RCC

In saying that it did come up on a Catholic debate site http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=485082 as being located in a Catholic church

[montalban]

Please don't seriously suggest that there is any kind of general acceptance of Robert Lentz's crazy images in Roman Catholicism.

Well, I'm no "Roman" Catholic, but the first and only place I've ever encountered his goofy images was on.........................orthodoxchristianity.net.  Go figure.  Never seen them anywhere else that I can recall, and I hope I don't  .

Also, you're not likely to come across these icons as you probably don't attend an Apache church!

However, try google search by "Apache Christ" and "St Joseph Mission Church at Mescalero, New Mexico"

[JoeS2]

Please don't seriously suggest that there is any kind of general acceptance of Robert Lentz's crazy images in Roman Catholicism.

Well, I'm no "Roman" Catholic, but the first and only place I've ever encountered his goofy images was on.........................orthodoxchristianity.net.  Go figure.  Never seen them anywhere else that I can recall, and I hope I don't  .

Also, you're not likely to come across these icons as you probably don't attend an Apache church!

However, try google search by "Apache Christ" and "St Joseph Mission Church at Mescalero, New Mexico"

Its important to keep in mind that not all Icons are approved by the Church.  Writing an Icon of anyone can be made but will it be acceptable to the parish is a different story.

[Dan the Man]

Re OP: Things like these were one of many reasons why I became interested in Orthodoxy over Catholicism.

[LBK]

Here are examples of "icons" painted by a Catholic artist to deliberately reflect "cultural relevance" and to "speak to" various peoples in their own "cultural language". ....
....Tell me, Stanley, do you find these images acceptable? Would you welcome their presence in your church? If not, why not?

Here is an example of a reflection of cultural relevance in an Orthodox Church:

This image is, at best, a small panel in a larger "life" icon of St Matrona of Moscow. There was indeed a meeting between Stalin and St Matrona at some stage in her life, and this is all that this picture is representing. These small panels surrounding a larger central panel of the saint are illustrations of episodes in the saint's life, and are not intended for veneration as stand-alone icons.

Be that as it may, it is instructive that Stalin is shown without a halo, and is seen stridently walking away from St Matrona, because she has told him something he didn't want to hear. The image in no way promotes Stalin as some sort of holy figure.

Try again, Stan. You still haven't answered my question on the Robert Lentz paintings I posted.

[montalban]

Please don't seriously suggest that there is any kind of general acceptance of Robert Lentz's crazy images in Roman Catholicism.

Well, I'm no "Roman" Catholic, but the first and only place I've ever encountered his goofy images was on.........................orthodoxchristianity.net.  Go figure.  Never seen them anywhere else that I can recall, and I hope I don't  .

Also, you're not likely to come across these icons as you probably don't attend an Apache church!

However, try google search by "Apache Christ" and "St Joseph Mission Church at Mescalero, New Mexico"

Its important to keep in mind that not all Icons are approved by the Church.  Writing an Icon of anyone can be made but will it be acceptable to the parish is a different story.

This is very true. And I know that Robert Lentz has made up a 'gay' icon for Sts. Sergius and Bacchus - complete in pink togas!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/SerBac.jpg

Hopefully some of the Catholics on this thread can shed more light on this 'Apache Christ'

[stanley123]

Its important to keep in mind that not all Icons are approved by the Church.  Writing an Icon of anyone can be made but will it be acceptable to the parish is a different story.

Is the Stalin icon with St. Matrona approved by the Church? It was placed in an Orthodox Church by a priest.
What about other icons of Stalin, such as:

[sedevacantist]

I suggest forgetting about the pagan  icons for a moment and look at the elephant in the room,

At the notorious interfaith “ecumenical prayer gatherings” – the most well-known occurring at Assisi in 1986 and 2002 – religious leaders from all the major false religions were invited to pray alongside John Paul II at a “Catholic” church. 

the Vatican II Sect on Islam

 

Then we have the Vatican II sect’s teaching on the false religion of Islam, which rejects the Holy Trinity and the Divinity of Jesus Christ.  Benedict XVI and John Paul have praised Islam, a false religion of the devil.  Here we see John Paul II in the Temple of infidelity (the mosque), endorsing their false religion.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, Session 19, Sept. 7, 1434:

“Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”

 

The Catholic Church teaches that Islam is “an abominable sect” of infidels (unbelievers).  An “abomination” is something that God abhors; it is something that He has no esteem for and no respect for.


The Catholic Church teaches that there is only one true religion and the rest are false.  The Catholic Church teaches that pagan religions (such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Voodooism, etc.), which worship various “gods,” actually worship demons, since all the gods of the heathen are the devils.

 Each religion was invited to offer its own prayer for peace – blasphemous prayers, for instance, as the Hindu prayer said: “Peace be on all gods.”  But their gods are devils, as we saw above, so peace was being prayed for all the devils (who created these false religions) at the Vatican-sponsored World Day of Prayer for Peace.  The Vatican II religion wants you to be in communion with devils.

Psalms 95:5- “For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils…”

 

1 Cor. 10:20- “But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God.  And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils.”

 

St. Paul says that when the pagans worship their gods they are worshipping devils, and he doesn’t want you to be in communion with devils.  The Vatican II sect, however, endorses these false religions which commit idolatry and worship devils.  This is unspeakably evil; it is a total rejection of the teaching of the Gospel and the Catholic Church, and it is condemned as apostasy by Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos.

It's time you left thevatican 2 sect and became a catholic.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/VaticanII_mainpage.php

[montalban]

Its important to keep in mind that not all Icons are approved by the Church.  Writing an Icon of anyone can be made but will it be acceptable to the parish is a different story.

Is the Stalin icon with St. Matrona approved by the Church? It was placed in an Orthodox Church by a priest.
What about other icons of Stalin, such as:

I'd be very interested to see your answers to LBK

[stanley123]

Its important to keep in mind that not all Icons are approved by the Church.  Writing an Icon of anyone can be made but will it be acceptable to the parish is a different story.

Is the Stalin icon with St. Matrona approved by the Church? It was placed in an Orthodox Church by a priest.
What about other icons of Stalin, such as:

I'd be very interested to see your answers to LBK

I am also very interested to see the number of aborigines in Australia who are members of the Orthodox Church. Would it be about 50 souls?
Also, concerning speaking to people in their cultural language, how many Greek Orthodox Churches would have an icon of Stalin with St. Madrona? How many Romanian Orthodox Churches would have such an icon?  If it is wrong to reflect reflect "cultural relevance" and to "speak to" various peoples in their own "cultural language" then why do you see icons of Stalin only in Russia and not in the Greek Orthodox Churches ?

[montalban]

I am also very interested to see the number of aborigines in Australia who are members of the Orthodox Church. Would it be about 50 souls?

Who knows? It's off-topic, you've been addressed

[montalban]

I don't think a 'my church is bigger than your church' discussion helps. However if one were to have this, one could address the topic, which might explain the relative 'success' of the RCC, that they are prepared to compromise their faith in order to win converts - which is surely self-defeating - unless 'nominal' converts is what matters.

I noted earlier a citation from a book surveying the RCC's missionary work in Western Australia. It exampled where a great many customs were allowed.

[stanley123]

I don't think a 'my church is bigger than your church' discussion helps. However if one were to have this, one could address the topic, which might explain the relative 'success' of the RCC, that they are prepared to compromise their faith in order to win converts - which is surely self-defeating - unless 'nominal' converts is what matters.

I noted earlier a citation from a book surveying the RCC's missionary work in Western Australia. It exampled where a great many customs were allowed.

Has the Orthodox faith been compromised by allowing evergreen trees in Church or by allowing icons of Stalin in Church? Putting an icon of Stalin in an Orthodox Church is an obvious example of speaking to Russians who admire Stalin.

[montalban]

Has the Orthodox faith been compromised by allowing evergreen trees in Church or by allowing icons of Stalin in Church? Putting an icon of Stalin in an Orthodox Church is an obvious example of speaking to Russians who admire Stalin.

You were already answered re: Stalin icon. You may have missed it

A difference between the EOC and RCC regarding apologetics is EOC are not worried about dealing with subjects. Readers can make up their mind if RCC apologists avoid answering questions.

Despite this being off-topic, and despite the fact it's already been addressed I'm happy to state a few things.

a) Stalin is in the icon, but is not the subject of worship. The idea that he is would be akin to me stating that in a Catholic icon appears a set of keys, therefore the keys are being worshipped. Cows, clouds etc are also covered by this. It shows the level of silliness of Catholic apologetics.

The picture here...
http://www.asianews.it/files/img/STALIN_(f)_1023_-_Icona.jpg

...does not show Stalin with the traditional halo - which would be a massive clue for anyone examining this seriously.

A further distinction can be made is that there are many articles that talk of this icon (even having Stalin in it) is a subject of controversy within the church. If Catholic apolgists wish to bring forth evidence of Catholic concern for smoking ceremonies in their church, they'd have a point.

But, alas...

[montalban]

I don't think a 'my church is bigger than your church' discussion helps. However if one were to have this, one could address the topic, which might explain the relative 'success' of the RCC, that they are prepared to compromise their faith in order to win converts - which is surely self-defeating - unless 'nominal' converts is what matters.

I noted earlier a citation from a book surveying the RCC's missionary work in Western Australia. It exampled where a great many customs were allowed.

Has the Orthodox faith been compromised by allowing evergreen trees in Church or by allowing icons of Stalin in Church? Putting an icon of Stalin in an Orthodox Church is an obvious example of speaking to Russians who admire Stalin.

Here is a Catholic picture showing Jesus and the devil


By your 'logic' because the devil is featured in the picture he is a subject of veneration ergo Catholics worship Satan (according to your reasoning)

If such a picture appears in a Catholic church it would only confirm stanley123's theory that the Catholic church worships evil.

If you'd like I'm sure I can dig up such a pic from the Vatican itself

(it matters not who is more evil, Stalin or Satan even though it is clearly Satan)

[Romaios]

Has the Orthodox faith been compromised by allowing evergreen trees in Church or by allowing icons of Stalin in Church? Putting an icon of Stalin in an Orthodox Church is an obvious example of speaking to Russians who admire Stalin.

Evergreen trees do not compromise the Orthodox faith any more than other botanical decoration would.

The sages while in Rome were asked, “If [God] does not want avoda zara (idolatry) why does He not abolish it?” They replied, “Had they [the idol worshippers] been worshipping things the world does not need He would have done so. They, however, are worshipping the sun, moon, stars and signs [zodiac]. Should the world be destroyed because of fools?” They [the questioners] said, “Let Him destroy the [worshipped] things that are not necessary for the world leaving those that are.” They replied, “That would further strengthen their worshippers. That would further strengthen the legitimacy of the ones that were not destroyed, as gods.”

Avoda Zara 4

An icon depicting Stalin as a Saint would be a mockery of the Orthodox faith and an obvious contradiction of everything sacred to it. I hope for your sake that you can distinguish between that and an icon where Stalin is depicted without a hallo - we have icons where devils are depicted, too, but no icons of the devil. The one you posted first was ok, the second anathema.

Edit: montalban beat me to it.

[montalban]

Edit: montalban beat me to it.

No worries!

In soccer they would call Stanley123's attack an 'own goal'

[Romaios]

Also, concerning speaking to people in their cultural language, how many Greek Orthodox Churches would have an icon of Stalin with St. Madrona? How many Romanian Orthodox Churches would have such an icon?  If it is wrong to reflect reflect "cultural relevance" and to "speak to" various peoples in their own "cultural language" then why do you see icons of Stalin only in Russia and not in the Greek Orthodox Churches?

If a local Orthodox Saint is indeed a Saint, he/she is recognized as such in all the Orthodox Churches in communion with each other, even if he/she would be honoured more in his/her country or where his/her relics are kept. No one can be a Saint in Russia and a scandal in all the other Churches of God.   

[stanley123]

No demons can stand in a place where the name of the Lord is invoked and the sacraments offered.

Can an icon with Stalin stand in a place in Church?

[stanley123]

However if one were to have this, one could address the topic, which might explain the relative 'success' of the RCC, that they are prepared to compromise their faith in order to win converts - which is surely self-defeating - unless 'nominal' converts is what matters.

I don't think that taking note of local customs is compromising faith. For example, painted eggs are  handed out after Orthodox Easter services. Is the Orthodox faith compromised when red colored eggs are passed out after Pascha services at the Orthodox Church? "The book Celebrations says: Eggs were said to be dyed and eaten at the Spring festivals in ancient Egypt, Persia, Greece, and Rome. The Persians of that time gave eggs as gifts at the vernal equinox. From these references, it is clear that the colored eggs originated in the ancient springtime fertility rites."
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_did_the_Easter_egg_hunt_originate
"Eggs were a primitive symbol of fertility; but Christians saw in them a symbol of the tomb from which Christ rose, and continued the [pagan] practice of coloring, giving, and eating them at Easter. "(New Age Encyclopedia.,Vol 6. China: Lexicon Publications, 1973, p.190)
"Eggs were hung up in the Egyptian temples.....Dyed eggs were sacred Easter offerings in Egypt, as they are still in China and Europe. Easter, or spring, was the season of birth, terrestrial and celestial." (James Bonwick, Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought, pp. 211-212)
"...the egg as a symbol of fertility and of renewed life goes back to the ancient Egyptians and Persians, who had also the custom of colouring and eating eggs during their spring festival." (Encylopaedia Britannica, article: Easter)
"The Persians and Egyptians colored eggs and ate them during their new year's celebration, which came in the spring." (The New Book of Knowledge, Danbury: Grolier, 1991, p.44)
"In northern Europe, Eostre, the Teutonic-Anglo-Saxon goddess of dawn, evolved from Astarte in Babylon and from Ishtar from Assyria. Eggs, dyed blood-red and rolled in the newly sown soil at spring equinox, ensured fertility of the fields. The Moon Hare, sacred animal totem of Eostre, laid more colored eggs for children to find. From the name, Eostre, Astarte, and Ishtar, we derive the scientific terminology for the female hormone and reproduction cycle: estrogen and estrus. Easter also derives from Eostre." (D. Henes, Celestially Auspicious Occasions: Seasons, Cycles and Celebrations, New York: Perigee Book)
"The egg, as a symbol of New Life is much older than Christianity and the coloring of it at the spring festival is also of very ancient origin. The Egyptians, the Persians, the Greeks and the Romans used it this way." (George William Douglas, The American Book of Days, article: Easter)
So it appears then , that the pagan/non-Christian element of the painted egg has been allowed into Orthodox practice and custom.

[Romaios]

No demons can stand in a place where the name of the Lord is invoked and the sacraments offered.

Can an icon with Stalin stand in a place in Church?

Yes - as long as it's not an icon of Stalin.

[Jason.Wike]

However if one were to have this, one could address the topic, which might explain the relative 'success' of the RCC, that they are prepared to compromise their faith in order to win converts - which is surely self-defeating - unless 'nominal' converts is what matters.

I don't think that taking note of local customs is compromising faith. For example, painted eggs are  handed out after Orthodox Easter services. Is the Orthodox faith compromised when red colored eggs are passed out after Pascha services at the Orthodox Church? "The book Celebrations says: Eggs were said to be dyed and eaten at the Spring festivals in ancient Egypt, Persia, Greece, and Rome. The Persians of that time gave eggs as gifts at the vernal equinox. From these references, it is clear that the colored eggs originated in the ancient springtime fertility rites."
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_did_the_Easter_egg_hunt_originate
"Eggs were a primitive symbol of fertility; but Christians saw in them a symbol of the tomb from which Christ rose, and continued the [pagan] practice of coloring, giving, and eating them at Easter. "(New Age Encyclopedia.,Vol 6. China: Lexicon Publications, 1973, p.190)
"Eggs were hung up in the Egyptian temples.....Dyed eggs were sacred Easter offerings in Egypt, as they are still in China and Europe. Easter, or spring, was the season of birth, terrestrial and celestial." (James Bonwick, Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought, pp. 211-212)
"...the egg as a symbol of fertility and of renewed life goes back to the ancient Egyptians and Persians, who had also the custom of colouring and eating eggs during their spring festival." (Encylopaedia Britannica, article: Easter)
"The Persians and Egyptians colored eggs and ate them during their new year's celebration, which came in the spring." (The New Book of Knowledge, Danbury: Grolier, 1991, p.44)
"In northern Europe, Eostre, the Teutonic-Anglo-Saxon goddess of dawn, evolved from Astarte in Babylon and from Ishtar from Assyria. Eggs, dyed blood-red and rolled in the newly sown soil at spring equinox, ensured fertility of the fields. The Moon Hare, sacred animal totem of Eostre, laid more colored eggs for children to find. From the name, Eostre, Astarte, and Ishtar, we derive the scientific terminology for the female hormone and reproduction cycle: estrogen and estrus. Easter also derives from Eostre." (D. Henes, Celestially Auspicious Occasions: Seasons, Cycles and Celebrations, New York: Perigee Book)
"The egg, as a symbol of New Life is much older than Christianity and the coloring of it at the spring festival is also of very ancient origin. The Egyptians, the Persians, the Greeks and the Romans used it this way." (George William Douglas, The American Book of Days, article: Easter)
So it appears then , that the pagan/non-Christian element of the painted egg has been allowed into Orthodox practice and custom.

Considering most of those books, when looked up, were published over 100 years ago (the more recent dates ascribed to them are reprints) and none of them have references or bibliographies they are worthless at best.

[LBK]

Can an icon with Stalin stand in a place in Church?

If it is part of a life icon of St Matrona of Moscow, depicting the encounter between St Matrona and Stalin, and where Stalin does not bear a halo, (and, as the image you posted shows, shows him obviously rejecting what she has had to say to him), then, yes. The subject of veneration in such an icon is St Matrona, not Stalin.

Such a depiction would be no different to showing the devil in an icon in the examples others have given here, or showing the executioners and torturers of saints, as long at their depiction is dispassionate, not inciting anger and hatred towards them. Even RC religious art is full of such imagery, so your attempt to smear the Orthodox has failed again.

If the icon shows Stalin with a halo, the answer is a resounding NO!! Not only has he never been proclaimed a saint by any Orthodox synod, the fact that innumerable New Martyrs and Confessors are glorified by the Church for their staunch defense of their faith in the face of Soviet oppression and brutality proves that there is no way he will ever be proclaimed a saint. The existence of images of him sporting a halo proves nothing, other than the complete delusion of those who wish to have him canonized.

I'm still waiting for your answer, as are others, on the Robert Lentz images I've posted.  

[Romaios]

I don't think that taking note of local customs is compromising faith. For example, painted eggs are  handed out after Orthodox Easter services. Is the Orthodox faith compromised when red colored eggs are passed out after Pascha services at the Orthodox Church?

Christmas trees and Easter eggs are by now benign folk customs. Even if they might have had pagan roots, those are inactivated like dead virus stems, since most people would not attribute any sort of spiritual or magical powers to them. Moreover, they are not in any way inherent to the Christian faith or the liturgical/sacramental life of the Church. 
 
I'm not so sure that's the case with Aboriginal customs. What if this develops into some syncretic religion like Santería? Could the Aboriginals continue to practice their old rituals, like the "Catholic" peoples of the Andes continue to bring sacrifices and libations to the Pachamama ("Mother earth") right after or - even worse - while attending Mass? Would this be inculturation or "biritualism"? Another instance of failed missionarism? The "abomination of desolation standing in the sacred place"?     

In order to preserve their authentic ancestral and traditional beliefs, the Lukumi people had no choice but to disguise their orishas as Catholic saints. When the Roman Catholic slave owners observed Africans celebrating a Saint's Day, they were generally unaware that the slaves were actually worshiping one of their sacred orishas. Due to this history, in Cuba today, the terms "saint" and "orisha" are sometimes used interchangeably.

This historical "veil" characterization of the relationship between Catholic saints and Cuban orisha is made all the more complicated by the fact that the vast majority of santeros in Cuba today also consider themselves to be Catholics, have been baptized, and often require initiates to be baptized as well. Many hold separate rituals to honor the saints and orisha respectively, even though the faith's overt links to Catholicism are no longer needed.

Source

[stanley123]

Christmas trees and Easter eggs are by now benign folk customs. Even if they might have had pagan roots, those are inactivated like dead virus stems, since most people would not attribute any sort of spiritual or magical powers to them. Moreover, they are not in any way inherent to the Christian faith or the liturgical/sacramental life of the Church. 
 
I'm not so sure that's the case with Aboriginal customs.

How many Catholic liturgies designed for the aborigine peoples have you actually attended?
I don't see anything wrong in the prayers in the Catholic liturgies designed for the aborigine peoples. In obedience to the command of Our Divine Lord and Savior to teach all nations, Catholic missionaries have studied the aborigine culture and religion in an attempt to avoid the tensions and misunderstandings which arose between the white settlers and the aborigines and to create an atmosphere in which the aborigines would be receptive to hearing the good news of the New Testament. As you know, the Australian aborigines have perhaps the world's oldest continuous culture and religion. They did not know how to write, but did paint complicated beautiful murals in caves. In aboriginal belief the spirits of the dead were present everywhere, guiding the living.
Here are a few prayers from a Catholic liturgy on
National Aboriginal
And Torres Strait Islander Sunday:
[As you know, Water to Aboriginal people is always a sign of God’s peace and fulfillment in everything that is good; the promise of food, of harmony with ourselves, and the bush around us.]

Lord, make us feel your invitation to ‘come to the water’. At the very beginning you blessed the water, your great gift to us, and now we ask that your blessing be renewed in this water here today. We ask that through this water blessing we will all be renewed with your love, and protection, and your power to love one another as true Christians. Lord, this truly is a sign of the new life in Christ, which in Baptism we have all received.

We ask this through Jesus the Wise One.

All: Amen
Holy Father, God of Love, You are the Creator of this land and of all good things.
Our hope is in you because you gave your son Jesus to reconcile the world to you.
We pray for your strength and grace to forgive, accept and love one another, as you love us and forgive and accept us in the sacrifice of your son.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen
Holy Father, God of Love
You are the Creator of this land and all good things
We acknowledge the pain and shame of our history
And the suffering of our peoples.
And we ask your forgiveness.
We thank you for the survival of Indigenous cultures
Our hope is in you because you gave your son Jesus
To reconcile the world to you.
We pray for your strength and grace to forgive,
Accept and love one another,
As you love us and forgive and accept us
In the sacrifice of your Son.
Give us the courage to accept the realities of our history
So that we may build a better future for our nation.
Teach us to respect all cultures.
Teach us to care for our land and waters.
Help us to share justly the resources of this land.
Help us to bring about spiritual and social change
To improve the quality of life for all groups in our communities,
Especially the disadvantaged.
Help our young people to find true dignity and self esteem by your Spirit
May your power and love be the foundations
on which we build our families, our communities and our Nation.

Through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Amen

 Hymn: “How great thou art”
http://www.sydneycatholic.org/works/acm/
http://www.natsicc.org.au/

[SolEX01]

I wonder if the Russian Orthodox missionaries to the Aleuts involved creating prayers with seals and whales?

What if I want to start an Orthodox mission in an inner city?  Do I modify Orthodox prayers to include heroin, crack, guns, Jerry Springer & Maury Povich?

Or do I stick with the existing prayers of the church and teaching people how to use them, like driving a car?

There's proper cathechesis and, as in the example of the Roman Catholic example of the Aborigines, improper cathechesis.

[stanley123]

I wonder if the Russian Orthodox missionaries to the Aleuts involved creating prayers with seals and whales?

What if I want to start an Orthodox mission in an inner city?  Do I modify Orthodox prayers to include heroin, crack, guns, Jerry Springer & Maury Povich?

Or do I stick with the existing prayers of the church and teaching people how to use them, like driving a car?

There's proper cathechesis and, as in the example of the Roman Catholic example of the Aborigines, improper cathechesis.

This of course is vicious anti-Catholic propaganda to imply that Catholics have modified their prayers to include heroin, crack, guns and Jerry Springer. There is no such thing.

[LBK]

Stanley, you wrote in post #93:

Catholics in Australia were concerned with the many Aborigines there and the possibility that they could find a welcome in the Church. The question that was being asked was: 'What was Mother Church doing to show care for her many Aboriginal children, who treasured their Baptism but did not find a place in her churches and liturgy?' Was the European culture a bit too foreign for them to accept?  Pope John Paul II said: "The Church invites you to express the living words of Jesus in ways that speak to your Aboriginal minds and hearts. All over the world people worship God and read his word in their own language, and colour the great signs and symbols of religion with touches of their own traditions. Why should you be different from them in this regard, why should you not be allowed the happiness of being with God and each other in Aboriginal fashion?"
As I tried to point out above, in the past, symbols from pagan religions have been adopted and modified and incoporated into Christian worship. Why should the Aborigines be any different?

Here are examples of "icons" painted by a Catholic artist to deliberately reflect "cultural relevance" and to "speak to" various peoples in their own "cultural language".

Apache Christ:



Celtic Trinity



Quetzalcoatl Christ



Tell me, Stanley, do you find these images acceptable? Would you welcome their presence in your church? If not, why not?

*BUMP*

[Tags:]

OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Catholic Discussion (Moderator: username!) > Topic: Pagan/non-Christian elements allowed into Catholic Mass