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Author Topic: Pagan/non-Christian elements allowed into Catholic Mass  (Read 6372 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: March 26, 2013, 02:05:35 AM »

In addition to the Encyclopedia Britannica and the History channel, there are other sources which claim the pagan origin of Christmas trees. For example:
http://www.prevailmagazine.org/the-origins-of-the-christmas-tree/
"The Nordic pagans and the Celtic Druids revered the evergreen tree as a symbol of everlasting life and hope for the return of spring. While other plants and trees died, the evergreen trees remained alive continually; hence, they were revered as manifestations of deity. As a symbol of prosperity, the Druids decorated the evergreen outdoors. It was the Scandinavian pagans who were the pioneers in bringing the decorated trees indoors; and the Saxons, a Germanic pagan tribe, who were the first to use candles to illuminate the tree....."

Which is all irrelevant
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« Reply #91 on: March 26, 2013, 02:09:44 AM »

Catholics use incense. Orthodox use incense. Pagans use incense.
Did God approve of the use of incense? It seems like He did not like it at least in the OT:

"[7] For so it was that the children of Israel had sinned against the Lord their God, who brought them out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharao king of Egypt, and they worshipped strange gods. [8] And they walked according to the way of the nations which the Lord had destroyed in the sight of the children of Israel and of the kings of Israel: because they had done in like manner. [9] And the children of Israel offended the Lord their God with things that were not right: and built them high places in all their cities from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city. [10] And they made them statues and groves on every high hill, and under every shady tree:
[11] And they burnt incense there upon altars after the manner of the nations which the Lord had removed from their face: and they did wicked things, provoking the Lord."
2 Kings 17
Also there is reference to making groves, which I am not sure what exactly it means?

Your best argument is "We're doing wrong, but so are you"

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« Reply #92 on: March 26, 2013, 02:13:57 AM »

So far a great number of responses (by Catholics) is to suggest the pagan origins of other things seen in church. At best this is to say "Sure, we're letting pagan stuff in, but so are you."

This is not an excuse; tu quoque is a logical fallacy

Unfortunately the further responses have been to simply repeat this illogical argument.

As I've pointed out now at least four times, even if something has pagan ORIGINS it doesn't make it pagan if it were adopted by Christians. HOWEVER this is not the same as Christians inviting into their church pagan elements that remain pagan - because in essence they are 'just visiting'.

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« Reply #93 on: March 26, 2013, 02:52:30 AM »

Catholics use incense. Orthodox use incense. Pagans use incense.
Did God approve of the use of incense? It seems like He did not like it at least in the OT:

"[7] For so it was that the children of Israel had sinned against the Lord their God, who brought them out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharao king of Egypt, and they worshipped strange gods. [8] And they walked according to the way of the nations which the Lord had destroyed in the sight of the children of Israel and of the kings of Israel: because they had done in like manner. [9] And the children of Israel offended the Lord their God with things that were not right: and built them high places in all their cities from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city. [10] And they made them statues and groves on every high hill, and under every shady tree:
[11] And they burnt incense there upon altars after the manner of the nations which the Lord had removed from their face: and they did wicked things, provoking the Lord."
2 Kings 17
Also there is reference to making groves, which I am not sure what exactly it means?

Your best argument is "We're doing wrong, but so are you"


Catholics in Australia were concerned with the many Aborigines there and the possibility that they could find a welcome in the Church. The question that was being asked was: 'What was Mother Church doing to show care for her many Aboriginal children, who treasured their Baptism but did not find a place in her churches and liturgy?' Was the European culture a bit too foreign for them to accept?  Pope John Paul II said: "The Church invites you to express the living words of Jesus in ways that speak to your Aboriginal minds and hearts. All over the world people worship God and read his word in their own language, and colour the great signs and symbols of religion with touches of their own traditions. Why should you be different from them in this regard, why should you not be allowed the happiness of being with God and each other in Aboriginal fashion?"
As I tried to point out above, in the past, symbols from pagan religions have been adopted and modified and incoporated into Christian worship. Why should the Aborigines be any different?

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« Reply #94 on: March 26, 2013, 03:32:29 AM »

As I tried to point out above, in the past, symbols from pagan religions have been adopted and modified and incoporated into Christian worship. Why should the Aborigines be any different?

Accomodationism/inculturation has always been a controversial issue, even inside the RCC: see the scandal of the Chinese Rites or the more recent attempts at "indianising" the Mass. Should priests offer Mass wearing headcovering in China or bear-breasted with a sacred thread attached in India? Some might take offense... St. Paul would not allow such things in Corinth, arguing that "the churches of God have no such custom".
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« Reply #95 on: March 28, 2013, 05:22:30 AM »

Catholics in Australia were concerned with the many Aborigines there and the possibility that they could find a welcome in the Church. The question that was being asked was: 'What was Mother Church doing to show care for her many Aboriginal children, who treasured their Baptism but did not find a place in her churches and liturgy?' Was the European culture a bit too foreign for them to accept?  Pope John Paul II said: "The Church invites you to express the living words of Jesus in ways that speak to your Aboriginal minds and hearts. All over the world people worship God and read his word in their own language, and colour the great signs and symbols of religion with touches of their own traditions. Why should you be different from them in this regard, why should you not be allowed the happiness of being with God and each other in Aboriginal fashion?"
As I tried to point out above, in the past, symbols from pagan religions have been adopted and modified and incoporated into Christian worship. Why should the Aborigines be any different?



Except I've already drawn the distinction (probably now eight times) on this thread between

a) pagan elements that are Christianised by being used by Christians - such as incense; with,
b) pagan elements that are used in Christian churches by non-Christians and/or to perform some non-Christian function

I don't believe in ancestral spirits walking the earth. I don't think that it is a part of Christian worship to believe so. You and others have failed to address this difference in your responses.

I have repeatedly given examples of this; and it's completely ignored; a preference for simple repeating the statements you make.

I am happy to go over this again:

Drinking wine/blood of Christ is Christian. If the priest said "We drink this blood in order to appease Baal" then it would not be Christian despite any superficial similarities between

a) drinking blood
and
b) drinking blood

When a) is Christian and b) is not Christian

Once your argument moves beyond the superficial, you'd perhaps have a point.

Smoke, incense - it's not all the same because of 'intent'.

I have also demonstrated from a Catholic site one of the statements that can be used to give thanks to the Australian indigenous population.

So far, after three pages of posts people choose to support the Catholic use of this by claiming a) = b) because there are other similarities of a) and b) in the church.

I don't believe Australian Aborigines have an inherent spiritual bond with the land. Certainly it's their belief that they do.
"Aboriginal people learned from their stories that a society must not be human-centred but rather land centred, otherwise they forget their source and purpose.... humans are prone to exploitative behaviour if not constantly reminded they are interconnected with the rest of creation, that they as individuals are only temporal in time, and past and future generations must be included in their perception of their purpose in life."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_mythology
or
"You and the land are one" is not a Christian concept.


Bending to their beliefs just so they feel included is a bad way of presenting Christianity.

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« Reply #96 on: March 28, 2013, 05:25:21 AM »

As I tried to point out above, in the past, symbols from pagan religions have been adopted and modified and incoporated into Christian worship. Why should the Aborigines be any different?

Accomodationism/inculturation has always been a controversial issue, even inside the RCC: see the scandal of the Chinese Rites or the more recent attempts at "indianising" the Mass. Should priests offer Mass wearing headcovering in China or bear-breasted with a sacred thread attached in India? Some might take offense... St. Paul would not allow such things in Corinth, arguing that "the churches of God have no such custom".

This is an excellent post.

The use of smoke in churches by Aborigines is a totally different idea to incense.

If it were the same, then how in fact is Aboriginal culture made to feel welcome?

Catholics simply can't have all arguments at once.

They either recognise that the church has allowed for something different IN ORDER to accomadate Aborigines, or they haven't
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« Reply #97 on: March 28, 2013, 07:21:55 AM »

The use of smoke in churches by Aborigines is a totally different idea to incense.
Who-in-the-heck are you to say?
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« Reply #98 on: March 28, 2013, 07:27:28 AM »

The use of smoke in churches by Aborigines is a totally different idea to incense.
Who-in-the-heck are you to say?


IIRC montalban is Australian, so he might know what he's talking about.
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« Reply #99 on: March 28, 2013, 04:11:17 PM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.
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« Reply #100 on: March 28, 2013, 05:22:13 PM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
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« Reply #101 on: March 28, 2013, 05:50:58 PM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
Please see reply #63. Thanks.
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« Reply #102 on: March 28, 2013, 05:55:51 PM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
Please see reply #63. Thanks.

Oh please. The 'influence of demons' is nothing more (and nothing less) than the distractions that stop us from concentrating in prayer, and incense provides both a symbol and a tangible focus. Have you heard any tales of shadowy beings driven screeching out of people or the building? Didn't think so.
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« Reply #103 on: March 28, 2013, 06:16:18 PM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
Please see reply #63. Thanks.

Oh please. The 'influence of demons' is nothing more (and nothing less) than the distractions that stop us from concentrating in prayer, and incense provides both a symbol and a tangible focus. Have you heard any tales of shadowy beings driven screeching out of people or the building? Didn't think so.
Does it make sense to condemn Catholic Aborigines who do the same?
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« Reply #104 on: March 28, 2013, 06:19:43 PM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
Please see reply #63. Thanks.

Oh please. The 'influence of demons' is nothing more (and nothing less) than the distractions that stop us from concentrating in prayer, and incense provides both a symbol and a tangible focus. Have you heard any tales of shadowy beings driven screeching out of people or the building? Didn't think so.
Does it make sense to condemn Catholic Aborigines who do the same?

Since the influence of demons and demons themselves are not the same thing, neither is the practice.
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« Reply #105 on: March 28, 2013, 06:38:19 PM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
Please see reply #63. Thanks.

Oh please. The 'influence of demons' is nothing more (and nothing less) than the distractions that stop us from concentrating in prayer, and incense provides both a symbol and a tangible focus. Have you heard any tales of shadowy beings driven screeching out of people or the building? Didn't think so.
Does it make sense to condemn Catholic Aborigines who do the same?

Since the influence of demons and demons themselves are not the same thing, neither is the practice.
I didn't know that this type of scholastic distinction was prevelant in Orthodoxy. I thought that  influence of demons would presuppose that demons are themselves present. You can't have influence of demons without there being demons in the first place. So let's see: the Orthodox Church is against influence of demons, but the Catholics are  against demons. So the aborigine Catholics must  be condemned because the aborigine Catholics  are not against the influence of demons, but they are instead against the demons?
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« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2013, 11:02:39 PM »

The use of smoke in churches by Aborigines is a totally different idea to incense.
Who-in-the-heck are you to say?


I evidenced this. Aboriginal mythology is totally distinct from Christian belief. I evidenced this too by way of a wording of a 'welcome to country' that Catholics are encouraged to use.

Here (though not in a 'Mass') is a blessing for Catholic schools

"Guidelines for Planning the Blessing Ceremony of New School Facilities
Revised May 2010"
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fri.bne.catholic.edu.au%2Free%2FRE%2FREL%2FCollaborativeSite%2FShared%2520Documents%2FGuidelines%2520for%2520Planning%2520the%2520Blessing%2520Ceremony%2520of%2520New%2520School%2520Facilities.docx&ei=KQRVUaaCJsqMkwWJxoCwBg&usg=AFQjCNFsaG_C5jL95n20b0zK5ARz8_LlyA&sig2=_atbUmWPwL5EdYvdeyEehQ&bvm=bv.44442042,d.dGI
(sorry for the long link)

This includes
Welcome and Acknowledgement of / Welcome to Country
    A Welcome to Country is where the traditional Aboriginal custodian or Elder welcomes people to their land. The local Aboriginal custodians or traditional owners conduct the ceremony and this may be done through a speech, song, ceremony or a combination of these things.

It thus incorporates Aboriginal traditional ceremony (which is DISTINCT FROM Christian belief)

Appendix A of that site includes a suggested wording for one such welcome
    We acknowledge the Traditional Owners and Custodians who have walked and cared for this land for thousands of years and their descendants who maintain these spiritual connections and traditions.
    Let us observe a moment of silence to reflect on the millions of footprints that travelled the Dreaming pathways and our own loved ones who have gone before us.

the "Dreaming" specifically refers to Aboriginal belief about the creation. And yes, we too believe in 'creation' but we don't believe that the world was created by rainbow serpents etc.

Furthermore, I addressed this by way of logic.

IF it's no different from incense then how is it 'inclusive' of Aborigines and their culture? It's a case of one can't have both arguments at once.

It is either different, and including it is a sign of 'inclusiveness' for Aborigines because it brings to the table some of their culture, or it is not different and simply a farce to deceive Aborigines into thinking that their being especially included.

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« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2013, 11:05:33 PM »

Here's another "Welcome to Country" catholics can use

    Welcome to Country


    Brothers and sisters

    As we gather here today, we ask that the Land and the Great Ancestral Spirits welcome each of you to the scared land of the ……………… people (nation).

    May the Great Ancestral Spirits of the Land, the waters and the rivers protect and guide us as we gather for this sacred/special ceremony ………….. …….  (name the occasion e.g. funeral, baptism)

    On behalf of my family and our relations I especially welcome you here today
http://www.acmlismore.org.au/welcomeToCountryDetail.php?English-1

Do you think Christians believe in 'Great Ancestral spirits'Huh
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« Reply #108 on: March 28, 2013, 11:07:25 PM »

Keep up the good work, montalban. Stuff like this needs to be aired, even if some can't or won't see the points you make.
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« Reply #109 on: March 29, 2013, 02:17:14 AM »

Keep up the good work, montalban. Stuff like this needs to be aired, even if some can't or won't see the points you make.

Thank you. I'm sure the Catholic church adopts other pagan cultures elements in other parts of the world. It's the 'watered-down' version in order to be 'relevant' that drove me away from the RCC
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« Reply #110 on: March 29, 2013, 04:36:11 AM »

It's actually depressing to see people so confused as to think that incense and pagan smoking ceremonies are the same.

The RCC so long separated from the church has fostered this confusion
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« Reply #111 on: March 29, 2013, 05:06:51 AM »

I like this back and forth between stan and romeo. Most of everything else is noise.

For the lack and imprudent use of source material, stan does raise some interesting and relevant points.

Keep it up guys.

And romeo, what on earth did you study, good grief.
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« Reply #112 on: March 29, 2013, 05:08:16 AM »

Here's another "Welcome to Country" catholics can use

    Welcome to Country


    Brothers and sisters

    As we gather here today, we ask that the Land and the Great Ancestral Spirits welcome each of you to the scared land of the ……………… people (nation).

    May the Great Ancestral Spirits of the Land, the waters and the rivers protect and guide us as we gather for this sacred/special ceremony ………….. …….  (name the occasion e.g. funeral, baptism)

    On behalf of my family and our relations I especially welcome you here today
http://www.acmlismore.org.au/welcomeToCountryDetail.php?English-1

Do you think Christians believe in 'Great Ancestral spirits'Huh

This is the most damning element by far. I am trying to find a great line you also contributed . . .
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« Reply #113 on: March 29, 2013, 05:10:46 AM »

I don't believe Australian Aborigines have an inherent spiritual bond with the land. Certainly it's their belief that they do.
"Aboriginal people learned from their stories that a society must not be human-centred but rather land centred, otherwise they forget their source and purpose.... humans are prone to exploitative behaviour if not constantly reminded they are interconnected with the rest of creation, that they as individuals are only temporal in time, and past and future generations must be included in their perception of their purpose in life."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_mythology
or
"You and the land are one" is not a Christian concept.


Bending to their beliefs just so they feel included is a bad way of presenting Christianity.

Well said. I can't say much about folks who grow up with this stuff but for white folks in the "first world" it is absolutely goofy, dangerous, and incredibly unChristian.

Thanks for pointing this out.
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« Reply #114 on: March 29, 2013, 05:26:26 AM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
Please see reply #63. Thanks.

Oh please. The 'influence of demons' is nothing more (and nothing less) than the distractions that stop us from concentrating in prayer, and incense provides both a symbol and a tangible focus. Have you heard any tales of shadowy beings driven screeching out of people or the building? Didn't think so.
Does it make sense to condemn Catholic Aborigines who do the same?

Since the influence of demons and demons themselves are not the same thing, neither is the practice.
I didn't know that this type of scholastic distinction was prevelant in Orthodoxy. I thought that  influence of demons would presuppose that demons are themselves present. You can't have influence of demons without there being demons in the first place. So let's see: the Orthodox Church is against influence of demons, but the Catholics are  against demons. So the aborigine Catholics must  be condemned because the aborigine Catholics  are not against the influence of demons, but they are instead against the demons?

No demons can stand in a place where the name of the Lord is invoked and the sacraments offered. Don't confuse reality with Hollywood.

And since when is differentiating between presence and influence 'scholasticism'? Do you need someone whispering in your ear constantly in order to be influenced by them? Have you never been influenced, say, by an author you have never even met?
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« Reply #115 on: March 29, 2013, 05:31:45 AM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
Please see reply #63. Thanks.

Oh please. The 'influence of demons' is nothing more (and nothing less) than the distractions that stop us from concentrating in prayer, and incense provides both a symbol and a tangible focus. Have you heard any tales of shadowy beings driven screeching out of people or the building? Didn't think so.
Does it make sense to condemn Catholic Aborigines who do the same?

Since the influence of demons and demons themselves are not the same thing, neither is the practice.
I didn't know that this type of scholastic distinction was prevelant in Orthodoxy. I thought that  influence of demons would presuppose that demons are themselves present. You can't have influence of demons without there being demons in the first place. So let's see: the Orthodox Church is against influence of demons, but the Catholics are  against demons. So the aborigine Catholics must  be condemned because the aborigine Catholics  are not against the influence of demons, but they are instead against the demons?

No demons can stand in a place where the name of the Lord is invoked and the sacraments offered. Don't confuse reality with Hollywood.

And since when is differentiating between presence and influence 'scholasticism'? Do you need someone whispering in your ear constantly in order to be influenced by them? Have you never been influenced, say, by an author you have never even met?

Stanley has you here though if for possibly wrong reasons. The underlying ontology you are using is gravely suspect. But no one cares about that stuff anymore. Definitely not Greeks or more properly Grurks for sometime.

The Germans had to take over that work. Gott sei dank! (stan, is that pagen?)
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« Reply #116 on: March 29, 2013, 05:43:07 AM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
Please see reply #63. Thanks.

Oh please. The 'influence of demons' is nothing more (and nothing less) than the distractions that stop us from concentrating in prayer, and incense provides both a symbol and a tangible focus. Have you heard any tales of shadowy beings driven screeching out of people or the building? Didn't think so.
Does it make sense to condemn Catholic Aborigines who do the same?

Since the influence of demons and demons themselves are not the same thing, neither is the practice.
I didn't know that this type of scholastic distinction was prevelant in Orthodoxy. I thought that  influence of demons would presuppose that demons are themselves present. You can't have influence of demons without there being demons in the first place. So let's see: the Orthodox Church is against influence of demons, but the Catholics are  against demons. So the aborigine Catholics must  be condemned because the aborigine Catholics  are not against the influence of demons, but they are instead against the demons?

No demons can stand in a place where the name of the Lord is invoked and the sacraments offered. Don't confuse reality with Hollywood.

And since when is differentiating between presence and influence 'scholasticism'? Do you need someone whispering in your ear constantly in order to be influenced by them? Have you never been influenced, say, by an author you have never even met?

Stanley has you here though if for possibly wrong reasons. The underlying ontology you are using is gravely suspect. But no one cares about that stuff anymore. Definitely not Greeks or more properly Grurks for sometime.

The Germans had to take over that work. Gott sei dank! (stan, is that pagen?)

Suspect all you will. I've never been to, or even heard of, a church building that had problems with demonic presences. If you have, feel free to share. Haven't heard of a good haunting in donkey's years.
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« Reply #117 on: March 29, 2013, 05:56:47 AM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
Please see reply #63. Thanks.

Oh please. The 'influence of demons' is nothing more (and nothing less) than the distractions that stop us from concentrating in prayer, and incense provides both a symbol and a tangible focus. Have you heard any tales of shadowy beings driven screeching out of people or the building? Didn't think so.
Does it make sense to condemn Catholic Aborigines who do the same?

Since the influence of demons and demons themselves are not the same thing, neither is the practice.
I didn't know that this type of scholastic distinction was prevelant in Orthodoxy. I thought that  influence of demons would presuppose that demons are themselves present. You can't have influence of demons without there being demons in the first place. So let's see: the Orthodox Church is against influence of demons, but the Catholics are  against demons. So the aborigine Catholics must  be condemned because the aborigine Catholics  are not against the influence of demons, but they are instead against the demons?

No demons can stand in a place where the name of the Lord is invoked and the sacraments offered. Don't confuse reality with Hollywood.

And since when is differentiating between presence and influence 'scholasticism'? Do you need someone whispering in your ear constantly in order to be influenced by them? Have you never been influenced, say, by an author you have never even met?

Stanley has you here though if for possibly wrong reasons. The underlying ontology you are using is gravely suspect. But no one cares about that stuff anymore. Definitely not Greeks or more properly Grurks for sometime.

The Germans had to take over that work. Gott sei dank! (stan, is that pagen?)

Suspect all you will. I've never been to, or even heard of, a church building that had problems with demonic presences. If you have, feel free to share. Haven't heard of a good haunting in donkey's years.

The two bolded portions point to my issue. Not stuff like demons.
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« Reply #118 on: March 29, 2013, 06:03:05 AM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
Please see reply #63. Thanks.

Oh please. The 'influence of demons' is nothing more (and nothing less) than the distractions that stop us from concentrating in prayer, and incense provides both a symbol and a tangible focus. Have you heard any tales of shadowy beings driven screeching out of people or the building? Didn't think so.
Does it make sense to condemn Catholic Aborigines who do the same?

Since the influence of demons and demons themselves are not the same thing, neither is the practice.
I didn't know that this type of scholastic distinction was prevelant in Orthodoxy. I thought that  influence of demons would presuppose that demons are themselves present. You can't have influence of demons without there being demons in the first place. So let's see: the Orthodox Church is against influence of demons, but the Catholics are  against demons. So the aborigine Catholics must  be condemned because the aborigine Catholics  are not against the influence of demons, but they are instead against the demons?

No demons can stand in a place where the name of the Lord is invoked and the sacraments offered. Don't confuse reality with Hollywood.

And since when is differentiating between presence and influence 'scholasticism'? Do you need someone whispering in your ear constantly in order to be influenced by them? Have you never been influenced, say, by an author you have never even met?

Stanley has you here though if for possibly wrong reasons. The underlying ontology you are using is gravely suspect. But no one cares about that stuff anymore. Definitely not Greeks or more properly Grurks for sometime.

The Germans had to take over that work. Gott sei dank! (stan, is that pagen?)

Suspect all you will. I've never been to, or even heard of, a church building that had problems with demonic presences. If you have, feel free to share. Haven't heard of a good haunting in donkey's years.

The two bolded portions point to my issue. Not stuff like demons.

Influence is in the mind of the influencee, not the presence of the influencer.
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« Reply #119 on: March 29, 2013, 06:04:45 AM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
Please see reply #63. Thanks.

Oh please. The 'influence of demons' is nothing more (and nothing less) than the distractions that stop us from concentrating in prayer, and incense provides both a symbol and a tangible focus. Have you heard any tales of shadowy beings driven screeching out of people or the building? Didn't think so.
Does it make sense to condemn Catholic Aborigines who do the same?

Since the influence of demons and demons themselves are not the same thing, neither is the practice.
I didn't know that this type of scholastic distinction was prevelant in Orthodoxy. I thought that  influence of demons would presuppose that demons are themselves present. You can't have influence of demons without there being demons in the first place. So let's see: the Orthodox Church is against influence of demons, but the Catholics are  against demons. So the aborigine Catholics must  be condemned because the aborigine Catholics  are not against the influence of demons, but they are instead against the demons?

No demons can stand in a place where the name of the Lord is invoked and the sacraments offered. Don't confuse reality with Hollywood.

And since when is differentiating between presence and influence 'scholasticism'? Do you need someone whispering in your ear constantly in order to be influenced by them? Have you never been influenced, say, by an author you have never even met?

Stanley has you here though if for possibly wrong reasons. The underlying ontology you are using is gravely suspect. But no one cares about that stuff anymore. Definitely not Greeks or more properly Grurks for sometime.

The Germans had to take over that work. Gott sei dank! (stan, is that pagen?)

Suspect all you will. I've never been to, or even heard of, a church building that had problems with demonic presences. If you have, feel free to share. Haven't heard of a good haunting in donkey's years.

The two bolded portions point to my issue. Not stuff like demons.

Influence is in the mind of the influencee, not the presence of the influencer.

Hence the suspect ontology informing your epistemology.
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« Reply #120 on: March 29, 2013, 06:12:16 AM »

As I noted several times already this only works as a parallel to the OP if the incense is used to ward off spirits.

It's not.
This is not true, as I noted above. Apparently,  you don't know what some Orthodox teach about incense.

I don't know either. Please enlighten us.
Please see reply #63. Thanks.

Oh please. The 'influence of demons' is nothing more (and nothing less) than the distractions that stop us from concentrating in prayer, and incense provides both a symbol and a tangible focus. Have you heard any tales of shadowy beings driven screeching out of people or the building? Didn't think so.
Does it make sense to condemn Catholic Aborigines who do the same?

Since the influence of demons and demons themselves are not the same thing, neither is the practice.
I didn't know that this type of scholastic distinction was prevelant in Orthodoxy. I thought that  influence of demons would presuppose that demons are themselves present. You can't have influence of demons without there being demons in the first place. So let's see: the Orthodox Church is against influence of demons, but the Catholics are  against demons. So the aborigine Catholics must  be condemned because the aborigine Catholics  are not against the influence of demons, but they are instead against the demons?

No demons can stand in a place where the name of the Lord is invoked and the sacraments offered. Don't confuse reality with Hollywood.

And since when is differentiating between presence and influence 'scholasticism'? Do you need someone whispering in your ear constantly in order to be influenced by them? Have you never been influenced, say, by an author you have never even met?

Stanley has you here though if for possibly wrong reasons. The underlying ontology you are using is gravely suspect. But no one cares about that stuff anymore. Definitely not Greeks or more properly Grurks for sometime.

The Germans had to take over that work. Gott sei dank! (stan, is that pagen?)

Suspect all you will. I've never been to, or even heard of, a church building that had problems with demonic presences. If you have, feel free to share. Haven't heard of a good haunting in donkey's years.

The two bolded portions point to my issue. Not stuff like demons.

Influence is in the mind of the influencee, not the presence of the influencer.

Hence the suspect ontology informing your epistemology.

Sorry, I never felt like looking over my left shoulder.

Before we wander too far off-target with the -ologies, the meat of the matter is: Aboriginal smoke rituals aim at driving away actual evil spirits. Do we believe that there are such spirits in the church building, that the worship offered there cannot drive away? I say no.
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« Reply #121 on: March 29, 2013, 08:26:22 AM »

Before we wander too far off-target with the -ologies, the meat of the matter is: Aboriginal smoke rituals aim at driving away actual evil spirits. Do we believe that there are such spirits in the church building, that the worship offered there cannot drive away? I say no.

I say 'no' as well. We don't believe in ancestral spirits walking the land either.

I half expect someone to say again it's like incense
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« Reply #122 on: March 29, 2013, 08:28:11 AM »

I like this back and forth between stan and romeo. Most of everything else is noise.

For the lack and imprudent use of source material, stan does raise some interesting and relevant points.

Keep it up guys.

And romeo, what on earth did you study, good grief.

Stan and Romeo?
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« Reply #123 on: March 29, 2013, 08:44:13 AM »

I like this back and forth between stan and romeo. Most of everything else is noise.

For the lack and imprudent use of source material, stan does raise some interesting and relevant points.

Keep it up guys.

And romeo, what on earth did you study, good grief.

Stan and Romeo?

stanley123 and Romaios.
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« Reply #124 on: March 30, 2013, 12:54:54 AM »

I like this back and forth between stan and romeo. Most of everything else is noise.

For the lack and imprudent use of source material, stan does raise some interesting and relevant points.

Keep it up guys.

And romeo, what on earth did you study, good grief.

Stan and Romeo?

stanley123 and Romaios.

Ah! Ta!
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« Reply #125 on: March 30, 2013, 02:10:44 AM »

I like this back and forth between stan and romeo. Most of everything else is noise.

For the lack and imprudent use of source material, stan does raise some interesting and relevant points.

Keep it up guys.

And romeo, what on earth did you study, good grief.

Stan and Romeo?

stanley123 and Romaios.

Ah! Ta!

I don't read well or something. Romaios looks like Romeos just about every time I see it.

How I see Isa's screen name is a hoot . . .
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« Reply #126 on: March 30, 2013, 11:16:06 PM »

Do you think Christians believe in 'Great Ancestral spirits'Huh
I don't know about Christians, but Catholics offer Masses for the Dead. In fact, Catholics have a special day: All Souls Day Nov 2, on which they remember and pray  for their deceased ancestors (mother, father, grandmother, grandfather) and other deceased relatives and friends. So Catholics do believe in heaven and hope that each spiritual soul of their ancestors will find peace there.
However, there are other problems:
"Since white people arrived in Australia it has always been difficult for them to understand Aboriginal culture. Ignorance led to many thousand Aboriginal people being killed by white settlers, and attempts were made to “breed out” their culture through assimilation.
Aboriginal people continue to feel misunderstood by white Australian politics. They claim that many legislative acts reflect a white point of view where at least a dual view would be necessary. Some activists even speak of “genocide” still going on in Australia today...."
http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/racial-discrimination-in-australia
BTW, how many aborigines are there who are members of the Orthodox Church? How successful have the Orthodox been in bringing the message of Christ and the teachings found in the New Testament to the aborigine people? After all, did not Christ ask us to go forth and teach all nations?
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« Reply #127 on: March 31, 2013, 12:01:36 AM »

Do you think Christians believe in 'Great Ancestral spirits'Huh
I don't know about Christians, but Catholics offer Masses for the Dead. In fact, Catholics have a special day: All Souls Day Nov 2, on which they remember and pray  for their deceased ancestors (mother, father, grandmother, grandfather) and other deceased relatives and friends. So Catholics do believe in heaven and hope that each spiritual soul of their ancestors will find peace there.
However, there are other problems:
"Since white people arrived in Australia it has always been difficult for them to understand Aboriginal culture. Ignorance led to many thousand Aboriginal people being killed by white settlers, and attempts were made to “breed out” their culture through assimilation.
Aboriginal people continue to feel misunderstood by white Australian politics. They claim that many legislative acts reflect a white point of view where at least a dual view would be necessary. Some activists even speak of “genocide” still going on in Australia today...."
http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/racial-discrimination-in-australia
BTW, how many aborigines are there who are members of the Orthodox Church? How successful have the Orthodox been in bringing the message of Christ and the teachings found in the New Testament to the aborigine people? After all, did not Christ ask us to go forth and teach all nations?

There is at least one Orthodox mission to Australian aboriginals. Their priest is himself Aboriginal:

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2009/7enmhganning.html
http://eorthodox.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/aboriginal-parish-in-australia/
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« Reply #128 on: March 31, 2013, 07:38:13 AM »

I don't know about Christians, but Catholics offer Masses for the Dead.

Which is still not the same thing; unless you believe your ancestral spirits walk the earth/are part of the environment
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« Reply #129 on: March 31, 2013, 07:50:46 AM »

BTW, how many aborigines are there who are members of the Orthodox Church? How successful have the Orthodox been in bringing the message of Christ and the teachings found in the New Testament to the aborigine people? After all, did not Christ ask us to go forth and teach all nations?

I thought I'd deal with this separately - as it's a different issue.

Orthodoxy in this country (and perhaps the USA too, I'm not sure) came here through immigration rather than missions. Further to that most of this immigration has happened only after WWII

There is unfortunately a small trend at present for Aborigines to head towards Islam - as a misguided belief that if one rebels against the dominant 'Anglo' culture, one should do the same with one's religion. A high profile convert, boxer Anthony Mundine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Mundine) is one such.

A draw-back for this (as far as I see) is that the churches are divided on ethnic lines. My church - EVERYONE bar myself is of Arabic speaking background. And, as I introduced myself to the church (as opposed to a friend drawing me along) I began very much as an outsider socially as well.

However missions are being established. The Russian church has begun one in the country town of Gunning (NSW)
http://www.rocor.org.au/?p=1405#more-1405

Orthodoxy is a minority in Australia (2.6% of the population).* The Australian Aboriginal population makes up 3% of Australia's population. Thus a minority is missioning to a minority. So, it is happening.

*- http://orthodoxwiki.org/Statistics_of_Orthodoxy_in_Australia
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« Reply #130 on: March 31, 2013, 07:54:58 AM »


There is at least one Orthodox mission to Australian aboriginals. Their priest is himself Aboriginal:

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2009/7enmhganning.html
http://eorthodox.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/aboriginal-parish-in-australia/

Oops! I see I'm evidencing the same fact as you.

Orthodoxy is a tiny group, relatively recent to Australia's history. Although the church had its foundation here in 1898, the majority of Orthodox came here after WWII - particularly the 1950s and 1960s when Australia offered assisted migration.

My own family arrived here in the 1840's. But, up until myself were generally all Presbyterian.
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« Reply #131 on: March 31, 2013, 04:26:36 PM »

Do you think Christians believe in 'Great Ancestral spirits'Huh
I don't know about Christians, but Catholics offer Masses for the Dead. In fact, Catholics have a special day: All Souls Day Nov 2, on which they remember and pray  for their deceased ancestors (mother, father, grandmother, grandfather) and other deceased relatives and friends. So Catholics do believe in heaven and hope that each spiritual soul of their ancestors will find peace there.
However, there are other problems:
"Since white people arrived in Australia it has always been difficult for them to understand Aboriginal culture. Ignorance led to many thousand Aboriginal people being killed by white settlers, and attempts were made to “breed out” their culture through assimilation.
Aboriginal people continue to feel misunderstood by white Australian politics. They claim that many legislative acts reflect a white point of view where at least a dual view would be necessary. Some activists even speak of “genocide” still going on in Australia today...."
http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/racial-discrimination-in-australia
BTW, how many aborigines are there who are members of the Orthodox Church? How successful have the Orthodox been in bringing the message of Christ and the teachings found in the New Testament to the aborigine people? After all, did not Christ ask us to go forth and teach all nations?

There is at least one Orthodox mission to Australian aboriginals. Their priest is himself Aboriginal:

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2009/7enmhganning.html
http://eorthodox.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/aboriginal-parish-in-australia/
In total, how many aborigines are members of the Orthodox Church? How successful has the Orthodox Church been in bringing the message of Christ to the aborigines?
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« Reply #132 on: March 31, 2013, 08:08:24 PM »

Do you think Christians believe in 'Great Ancestral spirits'Huh
I don't know about Christians, but Catholics offer Masses for the Dead. In fact, Catholics have a special day: All Souls Day Nov 2, on which they remember and pray  for their deceased ancestors (mother, father, grandmother, grandfather) and other deceased relatives and friends. So Catholics do believe in heaven and hope that each spiritual soul of their ancestors will find peace there.
However, there are other problems:
"Since white people arrived in Australia it has always been difficult for them to understand Aboriginal culture. Ignorance led to many thousand Aboriginal people being killed by white settlers, and attempts were made to “breed out” their culture through assimilation.
Aboriginal people continue to feel misunderstood by white Australian politics. They claim that many legislative acts reflect a white point of view where at least a dual view would be necessary. Some activists even speak of “genocide” still going on in Australia today...."
http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/racial-discrimination-in-australia
BTW, how many aborigines are there who are members of the Orthodox Church? How successful have the Orthodox been in bringing the message of Christ and the teachings found in the New Testament to the aborigine people? After all, did not Christ ask us to go forth and teach all nations?

There is at least one Orthodox mission to Australian aboriginals. Their priest is himself Aboriginal:

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2009/7enmhganning.html
http://eorthodox.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/aboriginal-parish-in-australia/
In total, how many aborigines are members of the Orthodox Church? How successful has the Orthodox Church been in bringing the message of Christ to the aborigines?

Go back and read montalban's posts, and the links he and I have provided. Compare the history and size of the Orthodox church in Australia with that of the RCC, and the length of time of European settlement of that country. Then come back to us.

One thing which I'm completely certain of: There's no way in the world a pagan smoking ceremony, or other such non-Christian ritual, would be allowed to take place within any Orthodox church, either as part of a service, or outside of it. Montalban has nailed why such things are wrong to be incorporated into Christian worship, but you cannot, or will not, see the point.
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« Reply #133 on: March 31, 2013, 08:12:01 PM »

In total, how many aborigines are members of the Orthodox Church? How successful has the Orthodox Church been in bringing the message of Christ to the aborigines?

I believe you're asking in order to try to demonstrate an excuse for Catholic use of pagan elements.

You've already been provided information on the church in this country - just how small, and relatively how recent it is.

The Catholic Church is by far and away a much larger and widespread organisation that had missions to Aborigines - where in fact they took a role in what's called here the "Stolen Generation"
http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/politics/stolen-generations-timeline

Which the previous pope has apologised for
"November: Pope John Paul II issues a formal apology on behalf of the Vatican to the affected Aboriginal families for the actions of any and all Catholic authorities or organisations in connection with the Stolen Generations."
(Ibid.)

Therefore numbers of Aborigines who are Catholic can be based upon the fact that they were taken from their families and culture and forcibly converted. I'm not saying this happened to all or even most. But your idea of a comparison of churches to ascertain 'success' needs to take into account all these factors.

I understand how the mind of the Catholic apologist works. Rather than address the point of the OP an attempt to show either the success of the RCC and/or a perceived failure of the EOC takes place.

Some may be interested in this snippet of Catholic mission work allowing for Aboriginal custom:
IN 1900, the Roman Catholic Bishop of Western Australia, Matthew Gibney, travelled to Beagle Bay, north of Broome, to inspect the mission conducted by the German order of Pallottine monks. During the visit, he officiated at the wedding ceremony of a 9-year-old girl to an old Aboriginal man. At the time, the strategy of the monks was to bring Christianity to the Aborigines but to do this with as little disruption to the customs and beliefs of the tribes as possible. This meant they accepted a number of aspects of traditional Aboriginal culture, especially polygamy, child brides and the consummation of such marriages, which in any other society would have broken all their moral codes.
http://www.stolengenerations.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=154&Itemid=128

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« Reply #134 on: March 31, 2013, 08:14:34 PM »


Go back and read montalban's posts, and the links he and I have provided. Compare the history and size of the Orthodox church in Australia with that of the RCC, and the length of time of European settlement of that country. Then come back to us.

One thing which I'm completely certain of: There's no way in the world a pagan smoking ceremony, or other such non-Christian ritual, would be allowed to take place within any Orthodox church, either as part of a service, or outside of it. Montalban has nailed why such things are wrong to be incorporated into Christian worship, but you cannot, or will not, see the point.

I thought I had answered it! Less than 3% compared to 26.6%*, and in effect more than 220 years compared to 70


*
http://www.catholicaustralia.com.au/page.php?pg=austchurch-survey
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