Author Topic: "Reforms" for the Curia?  (Read 1708 times)

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Offline Basil 320

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"Reforms" for the Curia?
« on: March 15, 2013, 12:40:07 AM »
What are these reforms for the Curia the media keeps mentioning?  What is needed?  How did Pope Benedict feel about the issues?  What did he do about them?  (I have no idea what the media is talking about.)
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Offline choy

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2013, 04:26:22 AM »
If its the media, then they want a Congregation of Same Sex Marriage and a Congregation of Married (not a bad thing) and Women Priests.

But also there are talks about reforming the Curia which has become the ruling body of the Church in recent times.  I think Rome really needs to get back to traditional ecclesiology.  Restore the national synods, restore the national primates, do away with the Curia.

Offline Alpo

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2013, 04:51:26 AM »
Restore the national synods, restore the national primates

That's not traditional ecclesiology. The Church of Rome has never been national but international.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2013, 05:09:46 AM »
Thank you.  I have no interest whatsoever in what the media wants; I'm interested in what believers and clergy feel are the needs of the Roman Catholic Church, in the context of this Curia issue.  Are there functional problems with the Curia, an entrenched bureaucracy not necessarily responsive to the Pope, for instance?  Are there matters of corruption, patronage, or incompetence--padding of the payrolls, that have not been addressed?  I've heard priests on EWTN, which tends to be traditional, speaking of reforming the Curia---I doubt they were referring to the cultural issues of the day, or in changing age old teachings.

Thank you both, for what you have advised.

What is this issue of national synods about?  What has changed about Roman Catholic Church governance?  What existed before, and when?  What is in its place?

Remember, I am Orthodox and not familiar with governance matters in Roman Catholicism.

By the way, I am rather inspired by the traditions related the the announcement of the Papal election and observing the new Pope establishing his papacy.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 05:16:47 AM by Basil 320 »
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Offline Shiny

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2013, 05:10:56 AM »
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Offline username!

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2013, 08:23:12 AM »
Reforms? How about all of the cardinals they have now and the fact that they are continually diversifying the geographical locales of said cardinals?  I wasn't until the middle of last century that cardinals and popes were really represented outside of Europe.  I'd say they've come a long way in acknowledging and including the global sphere of their people. 
Reforms may be on how the bishops are to handle big messes that arise in their dioceses and accountability. 
It's hard to see whenever the local RC bishop's installment shut down most of the city and had cops, dignitaries and politicians, etc.. present.  All of the elevation of his importance should not carry weight when it comes to the protection of the people under his spiritual protection.  After all it has been many years since the RCC were nobility and rulers of politics in 99% of the areas they are represented in.

Offline J Michael

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2013, 11:37:38 AM »
I believe that the reforms referred to with the Curia have to do with management policies and practices.  Remember, the Curia is the administrative apparatus of the Vatican.  There are also issues with the Vatican Bank.  More than that, I don't really know.  I'm not an inveterate "Vatican watcher".  ;)
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Offline Nephi

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2013, 12:12:49 PM »
Restore the national synods, restore the national primates

That's not traditional ecclesiology. The Church of Rome has never been national but international.

Is that true? From my brief readings on the Western Church in the Medieval/Renaissance eras, it seems like the individual national churches were much more sovereign than they are today. IIRC, a couple of the Reformation state churches were originally Catholic state churches that were changed rather than new establishments altogether; their national sovereignty facilitating the change. This is just my impression; do correct me if I'm wrong.

Offline choy

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2013, 12:16:32 PM »
Restore the national synods, restore the national primates

That's not traditional ecclesiology. The Church of Rome has never been national but international.

I mean each country has its own national synod.  The Philippines used to have its own Primate, for example.  Now that is gone.  Even the RC Primates in Canada and the US are more honorific titles than "First Among Equals" in the national synod.

Offline choy

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2013, 12:17:24 PM »
I believe that the reforms referred to with the Curia have to do with management policies and practices.  Remember, the Curia is the administrative apparatus of the Vatican.  There are also issues with the Vatican Bank.  More than that, I don't really know.  I'm not an inveterate "Vatican watcher".  ;)

Ah, the Vatican Bank.  I love their catchphrase, "Because Jesus saves"  :D :D :D

Offline James2

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2013, 07:16:09 PM »
I believe that the reforms referred to with the Curia have to do with management policies and practices.  Remember, the Curia is the administrative apparatus of the Vatican.  There are also issues with the Vatican Bank.  More than that, I don't really know.  I'm not an inveterate "Vatican watcher".  ;)

Ah, the Vatican Bank.  I love their catchphrase, "Because Jesus saves"  :D :D :D

Yeah, they're in vestments and investments. :D

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2013, 01:56:34 AM »
Well, I remember a year or two ago the vatican took out most of the prayers and ceremonies for elevating cardinals. there was also a unique ceremony which was abandoned

I thought it was very sad, to take out so many prayers. It is almost as if prayers are seen as useless
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Offline TheMathematician

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2013, 10:07:49 AM »
The funny part is, the RCC already has the structures in place. They have primates in most countries, and the same with bishops conferences effectively serving as synods.

They just need to restore power to them, the groundwork is there.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2013, 10:31:06 AM »
The funny part is, the RCC already has the structures in place. They have primates in most countries, and the same with bishops conferences effectively serving as synods.

They just need to restore power to them, the groundwork is there.

Quite true and why the tea leaf watchers in the East are following Pope Francis with interest. From his opening comments on the loggia , to being seated at the same height as other bishops to the creation of what appears to be a super-synod of cardinals, he is interesting. However, actions speak louder than words or symbolic acts. We shall see.

Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2013, 11:14:49 AM »
I believe that the reforms referred to with the Curia have to do with management policies and practices.  Remember, the Curia is the administrative apparatus of the Vatican.  There are also issues with the Vatican Bank.  More than that, I don't really know.  I'm not an inveterate "Vatican watcher".  ;)

This is where the reforms are needed.  One wonders how much of what these cardinals know actually gets passed on to the Pope. 
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Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2013, 11:26:06 AM »
Well, I remember a year or two ago the vatican took out most of the prayers and ceremonies for elevating cardinals. there was also a unique ceremony which was abandoned

I thought it was very sad, to take out so many prayers. It is almost as if prayers are seen as useless

Its really starting to seem like a lot of people that claim to believe in God really do think that... People always want shorter services, less obligations, etc etc. So they can do what, go watch football or watch tv more. They turn away from the greatest thing they can do with their life for things that are meaningless, pointless and a waste of their life.

Offline Peter J

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2013, 09:34:21 PM »
The funny part is, the RCC already has the structures in place. They have primates in most countries, and the same with bishops conferences effectively serving as synods.

They just need to restore power to them, the groundwork is there.

It's debatable how well that would go over. Don't forget the reactions when the Vatican published the 2006 Annuario Pontificio -- the first time since 1863 that it didn't contain the title "Patriarch of the West".
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2013, 01:25:04 PM »
Well, I remember a year or two ago the vatican took out most of the prayers and ceremonies for elevating cardinals. there was also a unique ceremony which was abandoned

I thought it was very sad, to take out so many prayers. It is almost as if prayers are seen as useless

Its really starting to seem like a lot of people that claim to believe in God really do think that... People always want shorter services, less obligations, etc etc. So they can do what, go watch football or watch tv more. They turn away from the greatest thing they can do with their life for things that are meaningless, pointless and a waste of their life.

As I recall, a lot of what was reformed or "taken out" of the service for elevating new Cardinals was really only added since the Second Vatican Council.  It wasn't some immemorial rite that got changed, like many other liturgical changes since VII, but was itself changed within living memory and brought back to something more closely resembling what it was like before the Council...still not what it used to be, but closer.   
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2013, 09:42:10 PM »
Well, I remember a year or two ago the vatican took out most of the prayers and ceremonies for elevating cardinals. there was also a unique ceremony which was abandoned

I thought it was very sad, to take out so many prayers. It is almost as if prayers are seen as useless

Its really starting to seem like a lot of people that claim to believe in God really do think that... People always want shorter services, less obligations, etc etc. So they can do what, go watch football or watch tv more. They turn away from the greatest thing they can do with their life for things that are meaningless, pointless and a waste of their life.



As I recall, a lot of what was reformed or "taken out" of the service for elevating new Cardinals was really only added since the Second Vatican Council.  It wasn't some immemorial rite that got changed, like many other liturgical changes since VII, but was itself changed within living memory and brought back to something more closely resembling what it was like before the Council...still not what it used to be, but closer.    

a b c d e f g h I j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 09:42:33 PM by JoeS2 »

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 10:05:49 PM »
Well, I remember a year or two ago the vatican took out most of the prayers and ceremonies for elevating cardinals. there was also a unique ceremony which was abandoned

I thought it was very sad, to take out so many prayers. It is almost as if prayers are seen as useless

Its really starting to seem like a lot of people that claim to believe in God really do think that... People always want shorter services, less obligations, etc etc. So they can do what, go watch football or watch tv more. They turn away from the greatest thing they can do with their life for things that are meaningless, pointless and a waste of their life.
The changes were made to emphasize that the cardinalate is an office not a sacrament.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2013, 11:18:41 PM »
a b c d e f g h I j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z.

A, E, A, E, I, O, U, U, and sometimes Y...?
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: "Reforms" for the Curia?
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2013, 12:03:42 AM »
His Holiness' recent comments about the "gay [homosexual] lobby" within the curia, may be part of the needed reforms that hierarchs were referring to in the media during the most recent conclave and the related activities immediately thereafter.
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