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Author Topic: Kratom  (Read 5231 times) Average Rating: 0
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crux_84
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« on: March 14, 2013, 09:00:57 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa Im joining the Church and in a process of kicking all drugs and alcohol.But when I get out of this post-treatment program - I could see myself giving back  in to this plant.(I love this plant and its a "reservation" I kinda still have...Its the one drug I feel I could manage once I get my life/finances together.)...I found this quite interesting in the article " Kratom has also been suggested as a use by some users as an effective treatment in high blood pressure, or hypertension. While hypertension can cause life-threatening effects, some have suggested that kratom use has assisted in lowering blood-pressure. Kratom has also been suggested as an effective treatment in people who suffer from borderline personality disorder." ... I suffer hypertension and my caffeine addiction doesnt help of wich Ive substituted with Kratom in the past.I also am an ex- I.V.-heroin user and have in the past diagnosed myself with avoidant/borderline personality disorder....I just joined a post-treatment program as Im entering the Church and want to for once try a year 100% clean and sober (yet with a nasty caffeine habit that causes health problems)....I think I hope this plant remains legal - us opiate addicts are chronic relapsers more than anyone and tend to die from opiate overdoses but Ive gotten to where Im 100% satisfied just using("relapsing" on) Kratom(wich has no toxicity level and does not really inebriate you).
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 09:15:09 PM by crux_84 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2013, 09:03:25 PM »

Clean AND sober. You are just fooling yourself. Kratom will only trigger you to use other substances again. Stop fooling yourself. Either you are ready to quit, or you are not. Make up your mind.
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2013, 10:02:50 PM »

It's quite curious that you have edited your post after my reply... Try iboga if you are worried about relapse NOT kratom.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 10:03:42 PM by PoorFoolNicholas » Logged
crux_84
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2013, 10:11:14 PM »

PoorFoolNicholas I had not seen any reply when I edited my post.Thankyou for being yet another spiritual surgeon helping me to practice humility in the face of someone making false assumptions - something us newbys with social stigmas over our heads must apparently just learn to accept...No I will never try ibogaine because like I said I have hypertension wich makes ibogaine deadly for someone like me to use as it causes severe heartr palpitations and has actually killed people with heart troubles and besides that its an extreme psychoactive that seems to have distinct pagan-spiritual things surrounding its usage...My it would beb est to try to make sure you know what your talkign about next time.
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2013, 10:12:23 PM »

And also my personal experience is that the only thing Kratom triggers is a desire to smoke excessively - its basicly herbal methadone(/suboxone) without the harsh addiction-side-effects....and nevermind about the practicing humility thing pffft!
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2013, 11:09:37 PM »


I'm sorry that you've found yourself addicted to drugs.  It's a horrible situation, and a hard one to fix.

The fact that while in rehab you are already resigned to relapsing seems like you are just setting yourself up for failure.

Don't "expect" to relapse.  Do your best NOT to relapse.

I hope and pray you are clean and sober and not addicted to anything, other than God.

It IS possible.
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2013, 04:51:03 PM »

Ive been seeking God and trying to stay off drugs in one form or another since I was 16.Ive been in and out of programs since then.Im currently starting over on the 12 step process and attending Church services when I can...In the narcotics Anonymous step working guide one comes across a question that communicates something along these lines: Do you have any reservations to use any psychoactive substances?/Do you still think you can manage a drug habit once you get your life together? ... Also in 12 step recovery one comes across the notion that we cannot wish away our sins no matter how deep'a philosophical or religious convictions we may have....My honest admission is - no matter how much I have wished to not be addicted to ANYTHING - not coffee beans,not tobacco,not poppy buds ... I still am an addict....There exists a plant that has been on the American market since roughly the year 2000.Alot of people are very enthusiastic about this plant as it is a natural painkiller and seemingly healthy alternative to alot of drugs including opiate withdrawal medication and opiates...Alot of people say its about as harmful as coffee.....I personally feel very well when I injest this plant and the only problem Ive ever seen with it is that being broke with a Kratom habit keeps one broke...That and I wonder how much addiction is the sin of idolatry.....Basicly I started this thread because a) I get bored in this post-treatment center b)I want an true Christian perspective on this issue from someone who actually knows what they are talking about and is not just gonna throw assumptions at me from a pedastal (being a drug addict doesnt mean one is a worse sinner than anyone else even though thats what society has taught most people)...So im justr being honest and realistic about a narcotic-herb that is becoming more and more popular and controversial of wich some people believe is less harmful than coffee...If its a sin I would like to repent of it though.Its good to know what is ok and whats not / have a healthy perspective on things.  P.S. You dont get very far with drug addicts when they admit a sin to you and you start giving them advice.Its best to just share you "experience,strength and hope."
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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2013, 05:09:54 PM »

There exists a plant that has been on the American market since roughly the year 2000.Alot of people are very enthusiastic about this plant as it is a natural painkiller and seemingly healthy alternative to alot of drugs including opiate withdrawal medication and opiates...Alot of people say its about as harmful as coffee.....I personally feel very well when I injest this plant and the only problem Ive ever seen with it is that being broke with a Kratom habit keeps one broke."

"Some people"? Who are they? Just a guess, but they probably said the same thing about other potentially harmful and addictive substances.

Here's your answer - you answered it yourself! Good for you!

Quote
..In the narcotics Anonymous step working guide one comes across a question that communicates something along these lines: Do you have any reservations to use any psychoactive substances?/Do you still think you can manage a drug habit once you get your life together? ... Also in 12 step recovery one comes across the notion that we cannot wish away our sins no matter how deep'a philosophical or religious convictions we may have....My honest admission is - no matter how much I have wished to not be addicted to ANYTHING - not coffee beans,not tobacco,not poppy buds ... I still am an addict....
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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2013, 06:02:44 PM »

There exists a plant that has been on the American market since roughly the year 2000.Alot of people are very enthusiastic about this plant as it is a natural painkiller and seemingly healthy alternative to alot of drugs including opiate withdrawal medication and opiates...Alot of people say its about as harmful as coffee.....I personally feel very well when I injest this plant and the only problem Ive ever seen with it is that being broke with a Kratom habit keeps one broke."

"Some people"? Who are they? Just a guess, but they probably said the same thing about other potentially harmful and addictive substances.

Here's your answer - you answered it yourself! Good for you!

Quote
..In the narcotics Anonymous step working guide one comes across a question that communicates something along these lines: Do you have any reservations to use any psychoactive substances?/Do you still think you can manage a drug habit once you get your life together? ... Also in 12 step recovery one comes across the notion that we cannot wish away our sins no matter how deep'a philosophical or religious convictions we may have....My honest admission is - no matter how much I have wished to not be addicted to ANYTHING - not coffee beans,not tobacco,not poppy buds ... I still am an addict....

Im sorry that Im such a defiant little #@!hole but yes.You are right - thats just a guess.Its an assumption.In other words you dont know what you are talking about.



Thanks - I know! I said it!
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 06:03:29 PM by crux_84 » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2013, 06:05:22 PM »

Now is there anyone who is not automaticly against this medicinal plant that God created and is devoid of the assumption that Im a drug addict trying to rationalize my addiction in an unhealthy way.Perhaps I am -as I do with coffee.Yes I am an oxymoronical hypocrite.
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2013, 06:41:56 PM »

Now is there anyone who is not automaticly against this medicinal plant that God created and is devoid of the assumption that Im a drug addict trying to rationalize my addiction in an unhealthy way.Perhaps I am -as I do with coffee.Yes I am an oxymoronical hypocrite.

I don't think looking for encouragement for drug use on an Orthodox forum is going to produce the results you were looking for.

This is really something that you should talk to your priest about. Although I wouldn't expect his endorsement of drug use either.
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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2013, 07:18:16 PM »

Kratom doesn't help with addiction, IIRC.

Ayahuasca and iboga do. Ayahuasca and Iboga are not recreational drugs that cause relapse.
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2013, 07:32:21 PM »

Hey Nephi do me a favor : DO NOT TALK TO ME.

"With the Kratom I think its largely a narcotic-self-medication that eases the pain of being spiritually sick and the only way to heal is to stop self-medicating (with it or any narcotic)...But its also hard to say if its any worse than self-medicating with coffee...Coffee is often a nice stimulant drug the way certain narcotics are.And my heart jumps and flutters 50 times a day and I have rapid-cycling-something-that-looks-like-manic-depression along with its use and feel even worse if i dont have it.....Kratom doesnt mess with my heart.....Kratom is a very good anti-depressant.Are we against anti-depressants? But so is suboxone for an opiate addict. How many priests would approve of suboxone as long as a doctor prescribed it (I wonder - but that could be a pointless/harmful speculation)...You know that the media demonizes Kratom and the goverment wants it banned yet doctors will prescribe suboxone to get people off it wich is like giving someone amphetamines to kick coffee." - from a personal message.
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2013, 07:37:53 PM »

Quote
Hey Nephi do me a favor : DO NOT TALK TO ME.

Cheesy Wink
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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2013, 07:48:00 PM »

Better yet Nephi - Im all about talking about and communicating things and coming to a truthful conclusion about things and if anyone has a problem with that than yes they very much do have a problem.That being said - as soon as I said "DONT TALK TO ME" I felt wrong...Please,please forgive me....I have for a long time been dealing with a pet peeve of people making preassumptions about me when I bring up certain topics.I can often times guess what assumption a person is going to make when speaking on certain topics.And the only thing it adjitates is my pride and ego so please forgive me.....Im not solely seeking to get people to "co-sign my bull_____" although there probably is some of that but I hope Im making it clear that I really do want to come to an honest conclusion about this....For the most part i think Kratom is a narcotic that God made for certain purposes that I just want to abuse...Again self-medicating inner pain is what us addicts do and that inner pain is from spiritual sickness (especially pride/ego).....So having this "reservation" I need to sort of externally process it.So all of you guys's feedback is helping me Im sorry im being such a little pee-ant.
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« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2013, 11:19:17 PM »

I can't say I'm one to endorse any sort of intoxicant, but I recognize, being human, each with our own weakness sometimes we need to wean ourselves from our dissipations by inches rather than by miles. We don't feel "normal" without that whatever it may be for us individually. And sometimes the not feeling normal is debilitating enough we cannot function. I don't know anything about the drugs you are asking about, so I cannot advise you as to it's propriety. So long as these are legal, the issue is essentially one of moral responsibility, and perhaps personal health. I would agree a nice long talk with one's priest might be helpful.

All that said, I think the end goal is not to be dependent on any intoxicant natural or man made. If you are working towards that end…gradually decreasing dosages by some schedule or metric, that is to the good. This would allow your body's own natural endocrine system to adjust and to compensate for the lack of artificial stimulation. The essential trap you face besides any related health issue connected to these substances is that of self will. You may be able to surmount this on your own, but that is very difficult, that is why your priest, or at least someone else who takes your faith seriously that you can confide in and be responsible to could prove very helpful.  

In the short term have you considered the benefits of something like Kava Kava in moderation. It can be very calming and relaxing without a particular high beyond a sort of mellow "everyone is my friend" feeling (and that only in strength of dosage). It is a close cousin to black pepper and is completely legal…and safe if purchased from reputable sources.
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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2013, 09:23:45 AM »

I can't say I'm one to endorse any sort of intoxicant, but I recognize, being human, each with our own weakness sometimes we need to wean ourselves from our dissipations by inches rather than by miles. We don't feel "normal" without that whatever it may be for us individually. And sometimes the not feeling normal is debilitating enough we cannot function. I don't know anything about the drugs you are asking about, so I cannot advise you as to it's propriety. So long as these are legal, the issue is essentially one of moral responsibility, and perhaps personal health. I would agree a nice long talk with one's priest might be helpful.

All that said, I think the end goal is not to be dependent on any intoxicant natural or man made. If you are working towards that end…gradually decreasing dosages by some schedule or metric, that is to the good. This would allow your body's own natural endocrine system to adjust and to compensate for the lack of artificial stimulation. The essential trap you face besides any related health issue connected to these substances is that of self will. You may be able to surmount this on your own, but that is very difficult, that is why your priest, or at least someone else who takes your faith seriously that you can confide in and be responsible to could prove very helpful.  

In the short term have you considered the benefits of something like Kava Kava in moderation. It can be very calming and relaxing without a particular high beyond a sort of mellow "everyone is my friend" feeling (and that only in strength of dosage). It is a close cousin to black pepper and is completely legal…and safe if purchased from reputable sources.


Thankyou so much for this reply.I have always agreed with this viewpoint....Its definently a moment by moment thing and as I try to scrape alittle bit of the meat out of my food and restrain from seconds and pray to the Mother of God when my passions seek to overwhelm me and try to pray ceaselessly along with the rigorous 12 step recovery program this wonderful facility has me eating,sleeping and breathing (Im not being sarcastic and it really is a wonderful program God has brought me to) the less i find myself wanting or thinking about Kratom.....Heres some interesting thoughts though: Have you ever gone without a cup of coffe for from afew days to a month and then had a cup (or six) after this long while and found yourself high on caffeine basicly. - Thats pretty much equivelent in euphoria and intensity to the effects of Kratom.Accept Kratom stabalizes blood pressure and doesnt frazzle and tweek your nerves or poisonon your bones and liver and kidneys like coffee does.Nor does it cause my heart to palpitate or jump and flutter all day like coffee does......You are the second person on this thread to advise me "Dont eat this plant, eat this plant"....I used to experiment with Kava as a teenage psychonaut but never really did it right - What was it Fijiins who would emulsify/ferment it in saliva - but we can just use soy lecithin or whatever.Im probably gonna try that but Ive been told that its QUITE intoxicating - in fact a regular Kratom user (a very kind of conservative,psuedo-intelligent kind of guy) told me about it as if its quite inebriating as compared to Kr(wich is not).........And then Nephi up there tells me that an Orthodox Christian website is not place for me to be "looking for encouragement for drug use" yet his Godfather is pursuading me "Dont eat that psychoactive plant,eat this psychoactive plant." - And I believe him! Ayahuasca - the plant he recommends contains DMT wich the absolute most powerful "psychadelic" chemical in the world - its released in your brain when your born and when you die...I quite often have found that psychadelic substances turned out not to be "recreational" in thesense of narcoticly-flesh-pleasing (in the way that a good coffee high is,kratom,tobacco,etc.etc.)...And i believe that an Ayahuasca experience will will be quite sanity-inducing in a healing way that will make me not want to injest things that ease my sore ego but kill me (especially by making me want to smoke too much.)
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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2013, 09:31:37 AM »

Ayahuasca - the plant he recommends contains DMT wich the absolute most powerful "psychadelic" chemical in the world - its released in your brain when your born and when you die...I quite often have found that psychadelic substances turned out not to be "recreational" in thesense of narcoticly-flesh-pleasing (in the way that a good coffee high is,kratom,tobacco,etc.etc.)...And i believe that an Ayahuasca experience will will be quite sanity-inducing in a healing way that will make me not want to injest things that ease my sore ego but kill me (especially by making me want to smoke too much.)

Ayahuasca is used by South American shamans in vision quests and it is a very strong purgative. It could rid your system from accumulated substances and make the 'cold turkey' process easier (and shorter), but the experience is anything but pleasant, and should be supervised by someone who knows what they are doing.
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« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2013, 10:06:49 AM »


All addictions are sinful....even if they aren't known as narcotics or addictable substances.

CRAVING anything, other than doing God's will, is sinful.  The moment you start "craving" you need to stop and think.

I'm not only speaking about substances, but, other addictions, as well.

People can be and are addicted to drink, food, video games, computer time, television, etc.  All of these distract us from God, from realizing what's good/evil, give a false sense of satisfaction and contentment.

All things in moderation, but, the moment it starts running your life (ie. craving, can't waiting to....) it becomes a problem.

....almost all of us are addicted to something....and need help overcoming it.

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« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2013, 05:30:11 PM »

That also rings truest sounding to me Liza...On the ayahuasca - I was gonna say - I once asked St. Mary of Egypts,Kansas Citys' Fr. Paisias why smoking marijuana was sinful when it seemed to have medicinal effects and he told me that because hallucinogens that put you into a trance state - or that being in a psychadelic drug induced trance state can open you up to demonic activity.Thats immediatly what I thought with ayahuasca so I googled "ayahuasca orthodox christian" and came across this article wich sorta detours me from wanting to mess with it after having been reading Fr. Seraphim Rose literature: AUTHOR ADAM ELENBASS DESCRIBES HIS JOURNEY FROM ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY TO AYAHUASCA SHAMANISM, ON THE 22 - 26 NOV 2010 “FUTURE QUAKE” RADIO PROGRAMS
Nashville, TN – Adam Elenbaas, author of the new book, “Fishers of Men: The Gospel of An Ayahuasca Vision Quest” (www.fishersofmenbook.com), discusses his journey from his orthodox Christian upbringing to embrace shamanistic spirit visitations via use of the plant-based ayahuasca brew of South America, with host “Doctor Future” and co-host Tom Bionic, airing daily during the week of 22 November on the “Future Quake” program, broadcast on the Christian talk radio station WENO, 760 AM in Nashville, TN (and archived at http://www.futurequake.com).  Mr. Elenbass was raised in a somewhat conventional Christian home, as a son of an up-and-coming Methodist minister. However, his parents’ broad-minded views on spirituality opened an appreciation in Adam for Native American spirituality, which resonated more fully than the stale liturgical church practices.  As his father’s career advanced and necessitated their relocation from rural to suburban environments, his family drifted apart, as his father coped with his increasing pastoral pressures with alcohol abuse and infidelity, and Adam advanced in his rebellion and association with parties involved in petty theft and substance abuse.  An episode of his rebellion into a strict fundamentalist church fellowship, including experiences in Pentecostal ecstatic experiences, followed by additional exposure to practices such as contemplative prayer while attending a Christian college (while still openly practicing substance abuse), additionally served to prepare him to pursue a theurgic experience via the ayahuasca drink used by South American shamans to contact the spirit world, and to look inward to confront and face internal “demons”.  He explains his ayahuasca ceremonies there in depth, involving confrontations with serpent-like and other entities, as well as one identifying himself as “Jesus” who presented a cosmology much different than that derived from a strict Biblical reading, including a dismissal of sin and “Bible-thumping”, and led to an understanding of Jesus not as deity but rather a higher-evolved being, nor viewing such spiritual matters and understandings as having eternal consequence.  Some portion of the discussion critiques his interpretation of these events, as to the veracity of the messages provided by such entities encountered in these ceremonies, and the potential for deception by demonic beings masquerading as “angels of light”.  The discussion concludes with an exploration of the potential for his experience to spread to other portions of the professing Christian community, especially some of those from the “Emergent Church” and Pentecostal backgrounds, whose pursuit of new mystical experiences might entice them to pursue this venue of spirit contact, in an unforgettable discussion.
“Future Quake”, hosted by “Doctor Future”, is a daily Christian interview and news review radio program, focusing on issues and events that will soon impact our collective futures.  It features interviews with international experts on the topics covered (such as recent guests Alvin Toffler, Judge Andrew Napolitano, Alex Jones, Joseph Farah, Chuck Baldwin and Dr. Jerome Corsi), with constructive, intellectual discussions intended to better inform the public and provide useful information to prepare for the days ahead.  It airs each weekday at 4 PM on WENO, 760 AM in Nashville, TN, the most popular Christian talk station in Middle Tennessee, and extending into much of the Mid-South.  For those that miss the live broadcast, prior shows are archived in .mp3 format for listening on demand at http://www.futurequake.com, or available as a podcast (under “future quake”) at I-Tunes (www.itunes.com).
CONTACT: “Dr. Future”, Host, “Future Quake” Radio Show (drfuture@futurequake.com) (This is also really weird cus I live in Nashville.)
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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2013, 06:27:30 PM »

Kratom doesn't help with addiction, IIRC.


 Actually, it does.  And I'm proof of that.  Currently, though, there are some issues with the way it's marketed.  First, I don't think it's regulated very well.  It's very difficult to ascertain a helpful dosage.  Second, typically the only places you can find it is in head shops which leads to my third concern- if one is fighting drug addiction, the last place that person needs to visit is a head shop.  Fourth, there is the potential for abuse and addiction to Kratom.  From the articles I've read, addiction is slim and withdrawal is negligent, but this doesn't address the potential for abuse.  

 I believe that if it were somehow regulated a little better, Kratom has massive potential.  

 
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« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2013, 11:39:22 PM »

Thanks Gabriel...And the fact of the matter with me is that it simply has not been my experience that it like fuels a "phenomenon of craving" that led me to use worse drugs again.Rather its been the opposite..more like a "Wow - I am completely satisfied with this.Thankyou God." ... Alot of people would not approve of this but its just how I feel from personal experience : I thank God that there is something that exists - that as a chronic relapser - I can "relapse" on that doesnt immediately destroy my life...When Ive relapsed on Vicodins(opioid painkillers) I could feel not only the physical but spiritual poisoning I'd done to myself wich takes a while to recover from..Not so with the Kratom.And if coffee costed 8 -10 $$(the cost of the little energy shot-looking bottles its sold in in tobacco stores here) a venti I would be a broke,street-spanging bum/coffee addict...My goal is to not use it one day at a time and hopefully for the next 11 months that I will be in this post-treatment program and it will be something that I will continue to try to deny my flesh of along with working on this nasty caffeine and minor tobacco habit but if I finding myself injesting it again in the future it seems like it will be one of those things that make this statement Ive heard baptized,practicing Orthodox Christians say " We still fall down all the time but the falls are become less and less .." something .. like the bottom gets raised or something .. wich HAS been my personal experience largely since becoming a Christian again.
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« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2013, 12:01:02 PM »

Crux_84, I may not have read carefully enough, so if this doesn't address what you are saying, please disregard. 

You mention you have hypertension, so you may also know there are some newer generation beta-blockers and so forth that can treat hypertension.  Then you don't have to rely on some sketchy headshop to supply you with medicine.  Some beta-blockers also act on adrenaline, so they can calm down random adrenaline hijacking by the nervous system.  Untreated hypertension can be deadly. You could also try a naturopathic type doctor for other issues, but I wouldn't go to one for cardiac problems.  They can be a little extreme on diets though, and it seems like they just repeat the same formulaic diet for everyone, not considering that people have different physical needs. 

I've not thought of coffee as a terrible addiction.  Coming out of Liturgy it's like a stampeding herd of sheep running for the coffee pots, so I think I'm not the only one who likes coffee (we generally abstain from food and drink prior to taking the Eucharist).

Maybe it is just frightening to consider going out and living your life without the thing that helped you cope, and that is why you are looking for something to help you?  Life isn't very comfortable for a lot of us.  Once in awhile, I am prescribed opiate type painkillers for something or the other, and invariably when I'm done, I feel more pain afterward.  Then I eventually go back and adjust to the typical amount of pain I am accustomed to everyday, which I've mostly learned to ignore. 

Seems like you might have some 'all or nothing' thinking going on, which a rehab place should be educating people about.  Meaning, you don't have to quit caffeine and cigarettes and the opiates all at once.  But I don't understand why you have to buy expensive 'shots' of coffee.  Why can't you just heat up a kettle and make a pot of regular coffee?

I haven't been through a rehab myself, but have close friends who have.  So what I know is from them.  I did attend some NA meetings for awhile, to support a friend, and it didn't seem like they were teetotalers about coffee and cigarettes.  The big bad thing that landed them in jail or prison was their opiate or meth habit.  Spending Thanksgiving with NA group taught me a lot about gratitude.  "Today I am grateful to not have my dinner shoved at me through the bars of a prison cell."   They were a remarkable group of people.
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« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2013, 01:19:45 PM »

Velsigne thanx for your reply: Im reading it and responding as I go along:

Ive been prescribed to the beta blockers Metoprolol,Propranolol and Atenolol since I was 22.

I havent used Kratom in 3 weeks(Thanks be to God) and usually obtained it from a bulk herb store or tobacco shop though I have bought it from head shops as well.

Im in a recovery center and do not feel its frightening to live without Kratom or drugs but since Im going in depth with my drug issues and have had falsely humble tendencies to be all cliche when talking about my drug use like say making statement along the lines of : "Yeah I used to think ________(usually some psychotropic plant) had to some positive medicinal benefits but yeah its just a DRUG and I was just 100% lying to myself cus Im an addict and Im just 100% self-deluded about everything and drugs are just bad and thats the end of it." - when really I believed deep down that there were good things about various psychotropic plants,fungi,etc. and the experiences I had injesting them.So Im just trying to be 100% honest - especially on here where I can talk 100% freely without some narrow-minded x-crack-addict that doesnt understand the full scop of what Im talking about who knows any kind of spiritual life solely through AA or NA assuming that I am him when he was my age when my story is usually a bit different or broader.And I like how with Orthodox Christ-worship I actually learn to love Jesus by finding out what kind of Person He is by having various mysteries of life revealed to me rather than everything just being black and white sometimes with an unspoken assumption in the air that psuedo-christian,anti-drug goverment entities represent Jesus Christ.

Next time you need to take something narcotic for serious pain i would strongly recommend Kratom and to keep in mind that your doctor may not understand what its about becauser he or she might be aligned in thought with the pharmaceutical companies that want to demonize this drug or have it solely for themselves because it is a fact that it kills pain as effectively as morphine yet not as inebriatingly-narcotic or at all deadly as morphine (in fact it has no toxicity level).


I dont think that I have to give everything up at once but i do suffer health problems from coffee and tobacco that naturally inclines my balanced personal little program Im working with to lay off of them.I probably was confusing in my statements - I dont buy expensive shot of coffee i was trying to make a point about my statement about how being broke with a Kratom addiction keeps one broke.

Thankyou for your thoughtful response - forgive me if Im coming off as defensive at all.
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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2013, 08:14:28 PM »

Update on the Kratom topic: As can be in my above posts I suffer from a particularly difficult case of argumentative pride,("knowledge that puffeth up","You cant tell me $#@!ism",etc.) and the self-medication of this spiritual leprosy via Kratom will not help my ego-swollen soul enter the narrow gate of heaven......I dont think .. And upon an over-month-long abstinence during lent/the working of a "4th Step" via NA/AA I was able by the grace of God to do a personal inventory of my fallen condition wich can look like to psychiatrists "Borderline Personality Disorder" wich Kratom as I stated is used to self-medicate by folks (and hypertension wich is a physical disease often caused by resentment/anger) such as myself and upon doing this 4th step I experienced the "head-heart connection".....Again an anti-socialish personality and a hypertension problem come from an angry protest-ant mentality along with the disease of sin and as we all know - abstaining from sensual pleasure and spiritual self-work is what saves the soul.I relapsed acouple times since the 4th step but am getting back on it and I really dont want it anymore.Peace with God is way better!
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2013, 10:41:58 AM »

^^ Glory be to God!
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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2013, 11:23:29 AM »

^^ Glory be to God!
+100!!
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« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2013, 04:48:18 PM »

I happened to find some Kratom at a head shop in Ft. Worth.
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