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Author Topic: So...The Ecumenical Patriarchate & America  (Read 2377 times) Average Rating: 0
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William
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« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2013, 09:47:47 PM »

They are here. You look them up. I am going to have a gyro today I think, I am just not going to sling low grade ones to keep the glitz on.

If you're ever in Chicago, try the gyros at Berghoff's. Amazing.

Btw this post is NSFL(ent).
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 09:48:03 PM by William » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2013, 10:18:06 PM »

Here's another question; why is Constantinople/Istantbul still home to the EP--the "first among equals" if it has little political signifance over there anymore? Don't the Canons say that Constantinople was only the first among equals after Rome because of its political and economic significance? America right now is a lot more powerful and politically significant, so why can't America be the new "first among equals" if it ever sees the establishment of a unified, autocephalous Church? I'm not trying to disrespect the EP, I'm really not. But I just feel kind of backstabbed by him. I converted to his religion, read books about him and saw him as a cool guy who wants to battle global warming, but then it seems like he only sees me as a statistic that he could make money off of and doesn't care about our diaspora's wellbeing. I understand now from reading posts here that it is a lot more confusing than it seems, and scapegoating the EP for everything is wrong, but still, you have to admit that he is doing nothing to make the situation better and in many cases, is at least contributing to the problem.

I am very pleased and impressed to see you have read and learned something about the history of Orthodoxy in North America, and that you appreciate how extreme was the comment about the anathema.  Don't get me wrong, the EP has let us down by not working toward correcting the canonically anomalous administrative situation in the North America--as he had discussed privately with some GOAA bishops upon his enthronement.  My earlier comments were more to make the point that it was not the EP that stopped St. Tikhon's well intended administrative unity plan.

I also feel while the existing character of each parish should be maintained in an administratively united church, there would need to be some national control mechanism to protect parishes from a bishop who may not appreciate the various traditions of each of the Holy Orthodox Churches. I will comment more later, too busy right now to discuss.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 10:23:04 PM by Basil 320 » Logged

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« Reply #92 on: March 15, 2013, 02:03:21 AM »

Here's another question; why is Constantinople/Istantbul still home to the EP--the "first among equals" if it has little political signifance over there anymore? Don't the Canons say that Constantinople was only the first among equals after Rome because of its political and economic significance? America right now is a lot more powerful and politically significant, so why can't America be the new "first among equals" if it ever sees the establishment of a unified, autocephalous Church? I'm not trying to disrespect the EP, I'm really not. But I just feel kind of backstabbed by him. I converted to his religion, read books about him and saw him as a cool guy who wants to battle global warming, but then it seems like he only sees me as a statistic that he could make money off of and doesn't care about our diaspora's wellbeing. I understand now from reading posts here that it is a lot more confusing than it seems, and scapegoating the EP for everything is wrong, but still, you have to admit that he is doing nothing to make the situation better and in many cases, is at least contributing to the problem.
Gah! Stop, STOP!

For some reason I find a threat of anathema towards a canonical and right-believing hierarch to be a disrespect. And that's an understatement.

Also, I think you are way overvaluing the title "Ecumenical Patriarch." He is first in the diptychs.
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« Reply #93 on: March 15, 2013, 03:39:09 AM »

See his reply No. 81; I think he has come to understand the error of the nature of his attack.
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« Reply #94 on: March 15, 2013, 04:16:41 PM »

See his reply No. 81; I think he has come to understand the error of the nature of his attack.

I've wondered why you reference the reply number rather than quote the reply or just link to it. Is this a function how you access the board?

Just curious.
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« Reply #95 on: March 15, 2013, 04:22:44 PM »

No, that's just the way I did it for no reason particularly.
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« Reply #96 on: March 16, 2013, 08:04:19 AM »

I'm pretty new to this whole jurisdictional debate thing, but I was reading a few books about the current status of the several Orthodox jurisdictions across the world, and America of course came up, and well, having no other way to put it, it seems like with all due respect that the EP is singlehandedly responsible for all of North America's jurisdictional problems. If we had followed St. Tikhon's original plan, then a unified American Orthodox Church could have existed in the first half of the 20th century, but the EP had to claim ecclessiastical jurisdiction in 1922, which destroyed this plan. And to this very day, the EP has been more stubbornly concerned with keeping EJ, at America's expense. I'm not one to insult the heirarchs, but that's sorta seems like a butt-hole move....I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.

Why on earth would you hope someone anathematises the EP? Do you ever stop to think things through before you post them? I know you're young and you'll probably grow out of it, but I really would recommend careful consideration of every thought before committing it to words that others can see or hear.

James

Yeah JamesR... Is Outrage!  (LOL)

So I get mocked for urging someone to think things through before committing them to a post? Maybe you should heed my advice also... only you don't have the excuse of teenage over-enthusiasm that JamesR does, do you?

James

Nope I don't.  I'm probably one of the oldest people on the forum.  It wasn't meant as personal, so please forgive me if it relayed that way.  It was meant in a broad sense, that I believe so many people kiss up to the EP's, that the EP's can do no wrong in their eyes.... Almost like their poo doesn't stink.

In several posts above I explained it out further, that under an EP in America, (speaking in a past tense of where I was), I very well could have been fully EO today.  The EP's messed up America, and I believe many on this forum agree.  I apologize, and I can see where you thought I mocked you... It was NOT personal....

Sometimes when you bring up stuff like the mysteriously disappearing $30k watch off an EP's wrist - that was in the reflection on a table, many people respond with "how dare you!" - "who are you do ever insult his all holiness...".    I believe JamesR brought out a serious thorn.... America, though we don't see it so often (we are use to it) is a jurisdictional mess.

If we look at Poland for example I see a lot more solidarity, and they are very small compared to the USA... Russia by population very small compared to the USA.  USA is often considered a more wealthy nation too..... I've watched ROCOR churches FAIL, because a hole in the wall OCA church got a better building.  I watch ROCOR in McKinney, TX - dilute the body of OCA in Dallas, TX.     Dallas has OCA & Greek which dilute the Orthodox body down from each other.  I'm not even going to get into the Romanian church in Carrolton, TX which dilutes the body down.  Lots of hole in the wall churches, even home churches.  All that dilute from each other.

Under a single EP, there would be probably 7 churches in Dallas/Ft. Worth - all spaced out perfectly. 

Though in some ways the "free market" Eastern Orthodoxy IS fun and interesting, for the sake of solidarity, I do believe it is bad for the church here.  It is the EP's fault, and greed & power corrupted unfortunately.
I do apologize if I came off sounding personally insulting, it was not my intent.
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« Reply #97 on: March 16, 2013, 08:07:34 AM »

Sometimes when you bring up stuff like the mysteriously disappearing $30k watch off an EP's wrist - that was in the reflection on a table, many people respond with "how dare you!" - "who are you do ever insult his all holiness...". 

MP's.
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« Reply #98 on: March 16, 2013, 09:47:16 AM »

The administration of the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia essentially fell apart with the elimination of the Church of Russia's financial support in March, 1917. Assuming eventual restoration of the Romanov Dynasty--and the Russian state church, Archbishop Alexandr mortgaged church properties to survive, but soon thereafter, due to law suites from the vile aberration of a church, the "Living Church," encouraged parishes to separate themselves from the Metropolia's direct administrative authority, while maintaining a spiritual connection.  And don't forget the Church of Russia anathematized the Metropolia somewhat later, although most of the American jurisdictions ignored the actions of the Soviet Communist controlled church, maintaining relations with the Metropolia, but it was in no position to administer itself, let alone the church of America. It took the Metropolia 30 years to even get its parishes to agree to operating statutes, given the distance their parishes felt they needed to maintain from their Central Church Administration.  And let's not ignore the proliferation of Russian jurisdictions, the Metropolia, the Patriarchal Church, and ROCOR---none of which shared communion (maybe except ROCOR, on and off); and later the Carpatho-Russian diocese.  Then there was the problem of the Ukrainian jurisdictions and their attitude toward the Russian-American jurisdictions.  When discussing matters of pan-Orthodox concerns among the American ecclesial jurisdictions, like the need for an American seminary in the mid-1930's, and the Russian-American people, who numerically were a significant presence, the discussion would stumble upon the question, "Which Russians?"  Those churches remain distinct administratively even today, while communion has been restored.

Proposing an anathema upon the venerable "First Throne" of the Holy Orthodox Church, the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the see of Orthodoxy's "First Among Equals," is uninformed and wholly irresponsible, and unnecessarily provocative, not to mention utterly unproductive.  No responsible advocate for the preeminence of the Orthodox Church in America's claim to autocephaly would ever desire such an action.



This is a very good post.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 09:47:39 AM by AMM » Logged
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« Reply #99 on: March 16, 2013, 09:37:13 PM »

Thank you; a blessed 40 Day Great Fast.
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« Reply #100 on: March 17, 2013, 04:09:43 PM »

If North America were to be united under the EP, would it ever gain independence or would it remain indefinitely under the control of the EP?

hmm... i don't think it ever would but if it did it would take a very long time. They would lose too many souls under their wing (and donations... mostly donations...)
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« Reply #101 on: March 17, 2013, 04:21:18 PM »

Here's another question; why is Constantinople/Istantbul still home to the EP--the "first among equals" if it has little political signifance over there anymore? Don't the Canons say that Constantinople was only the first among equals after Rome because of its political and economic significance? America right now is a lot more powerful and politically significant, so why can't America be the new "first among equals" if it ever sees the establishment of a unified, autocephalous Church? I'm not trying to disrespect the EP, I'm really not. But I just feel kind of backstabbed by him. I converted to his religion, read books about him and saw him as a cool guy who wants to battle global warming, but then it seems like he only sees me as a statistic that he could make money off of and doesn't care about our diaspora's wellbeing. I understand now from reading posts here that it is a lot more confusing than it seems, and scapegoating the EP for everything is wrong, but still, you have to admit that he is doing nothing to make the situation better and in many cases, is at least contributing to the problem.

someone else said something after, and i agree with them saying it would be Moscow which would have the title at this point if we followed that interpretation. but i am not sure i would like that much better...

I think a problem the EP is having is they have hardly any actual parishoners left where they are (physically). i mean it seems the EP spends a majority of its time trying to please every politician in the world to help against the "turkish onslaught", rather than the traditional tending to the faithful. at least that is what is getting put out in the press released of the daily things they do... (met with this politician, met with that businessman, congratulations for these heretics on their ordinations... Wink 
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« Reply #102 on: March 17, 2013, 04:33:02 PM »

And JamesR, I read something today i think both of us can benefit from.

Taken from "Letters from the Desert (Barsanuphius and John)

Quote
Question: If someone asks me to anathamize Nestorius and the heretics with him, should I do this or not?

Reponse by John:

"That Nestorius and those heretics who follow him are under anathema, this is clear. But you should not hurry to anathematize anyone at all. For one who regards himself as sinful would mourn over one's sins, and do nothing else. Neither, however, should you judge those who anathemize someone; for each person tests oneself."

Question: But if ones thinks, as a result of this, that I believe the same as Nestorius, what should I tell him?

Response by John:

Tell him: "Although it is clear that those people were worthy of their anathema, nevertheless I am more sinful than every other person, and fear that, in judging another, I may condemn myself. Indeed, even if I anathematize Satan himself, if I am doing his works, then I am anathematizing myself.

"For, the Lord said: 'If you love me, you will keep my commandments'. And the Apostle says: 'Whosoever does not love the Lord, let that person be under anathema'. Therefore, one who does not keep his commandments does not love him and one who does not love him, is under anathema. So, then, how can such a person anathematize others?" Say these things to him; and if he persists in this, then for the sake of his conscience, just anathematize the heretic!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 04:33:46 PM by Gunnarr » Logged

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