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Author Topic: So...The Ecumenical Patriarchate & America  (Read 2365 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2013, 08:25:57 PM »

It already has--the OCA, even if it is not fully recognized.

Not fully recognised? More like hardly recognised at all. The four ancient Patriarchates don't even recognise it.

My question is, why don't the other American jurisdictions join the OCA, since it's the only autocephalous Church in America?

Because almost nobody recognises OCA autocephaly to begin with.

We could simply just have Bishops govern ethnic groups opposed to territories, at least until American Orthodoxy became more uniform and developed its own culture and tradition. This was sorta St. Tikhon's original plan. And for a Patriarch, we could always maybe use a Holy Synod like Russia had, composed of a Bishop from each ethnic group.

Sounds like a bad plan. The Tradition is that one given diocese should have one bishop.

And this is the problem.  It was greed/pride that would have the entire continent not under a EP.

Population of countries:
America - 313.9 million - NO EP
Canada - 34.4 million - NO EP

Poland - 38.2 million - EP
Russia - 141.9 million - EP

The OCA is really barely recognized....

Speaking in a past tense of where I was with Orthodoxy and ecumenism back when I witnessed some ecumenism events, if we were united under a single EP, WITH EXPLANATION of ecumenism, I very well could still be fully EO today.   But I had an issue with ecumenism and found other bishops in this country with issues against it who veered me away from world Orthodoxy.  (Still have ROCOR books against ecumenism)  Later, I veered much more.  It's a touchy subject.  So I tend to get kind of pissed at the patriarchs for not uniting this large & often considered wealthy/powerful country under a single EP - "For the betterment of Orthodoxy".     Of course then I would have thought "simplicity is bliss", today obviously I think differently.   It's a touchy subject.
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« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2013, 08:46:07 PM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar.  

Uh, "swelling"? Really? Wishful thinking indeed.
At the reception of the Tomos of Autocephaly, a few parishes switched outright.  It was part of the controversy at the time.

I know OCA parishes where the majority of the parish are former GOA, and others with a sizable number of former GOA.  Our small Antiochian parish has several GOA families, and we are not alone in that.

I also know a number of GOA parishes served by OCA clergy, in particularly the Anglophones (i.e. the growing segment).s

Anecdotal evidence, at best, if evidence at all, Isa.

My Greek priest served in the OCA and with the Serbs for years and this factoid is meaningless to your narrative. So what? Should I consider it to be a counter argument to yours? No, neither mean anything.

How many Greek parishes have Arabs and other non-Greeks? Plenty. Again, what you "know" seems like not a lot.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 08:46:28 PM by Αριστοκλής » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2013, 08:53:36 PM »

If North America were to be united under the EP, would it ever gain independence or would it remain indefinitely under the control of the EP?
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« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2013, 09:03:13 PM »

If North America were to be united under the EP, would it ever gain independence or would it remain indefinitely under the control of the EP?

Hard to speculate on a hypothetical scenario.  How many jurisdictions have the EP granted autocephally of since the Turkish Yoke?
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« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2013, 09:12:38 PM »

Hard to speculate on a hypothetical scenario.  How many jurisdictions have the EP granted autocephally of since the Turkish Yoke?

You'll have to tell me since I don't know anything when it comes to this.
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« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2013, 10:00:17 PM »

I don't think its that straightforward. I know in the Antiochian church, after St. Raphael of Brooklyn reposed there were big disagreements of where to go next. It was this argument that led to two Antiochian churches being formed in my city. The original parish wanted to go under Antioch after St. Raphael's departure because they wanted Arab bishops, while my parish formed because they wanted to stay where they were and accept the appointment by the Moscow Patriarchate. This led to the founders of my parish to be labeled as "Russophiles." However, my parish did eventually end up in the Antiochian jurisdiction (can't remember that part of the story).
Did they join during the Antiochian reunification in the 1970s or prior to it?

I believe they got back together in the 70's.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 10:00:47 PM by Andrew21091 » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2013, 10:01:27 PM »

The OP's wording is so outrageously crude and offensive it warrants no further response from me.

How so? I mentioned in my first sentence that I was new to this topic and was only expressing my feelings from the little bit I do know from reading. I also said with all due respect and mentioned very plainly that I am not trying to disrespect the heirarchs, just expressing an opinion. Besides, the fact still remains that the EP--like it or not--did ruin St. Tikhon's plan for America. And so far, I don't see a good reason to justify that. If there is one, then I'd love to hear it. Plus, the EP wasn't even involved in the spread of Orthodoxy to America--if anyone should have final say on America's situation, it should be Moscow in my opinion, since they brought it over here...

Carl's wise words are worthy of memorization - they speak to the realities of American Orthodox history and her future.

A few facts for our young friend. Yes, the Russians were "here" first, if Russian Alaska is really "here." However....

Old world jealousies and the ambitions of its hierarchs  aside, you have to remember that the modern nation state is a post 1848 development. National Orthodoxy of course is far, far older.  The infighting among the ancient Patriarchates and Moscow took place in captivity or subordination at least  for most of the past 900 years - Islamic, Crusader, Ottoman, Papal, Tatar, Tsarist, Hungarian, Polish and finally Bolshevik....

The largest grouping of indigenous Orthodox immigrants here were ethnic Greeks some from "mainland" Greece, some from islands and others from what is now Turkey. Relatively few ethnic Orthodox Russians came here before the Revolution. The bulk of so-called Russians here are the descendents of formerly Greek Catholic immigrants from Austria Hungary who became Orthodox after rejection by the American Catholic hierarchy. Ukrainian nationalists were the largest group from the new USSR followed by Russians and some royalists. Smaller immigration of Serbs, Romanians, Arab Orthodox and others completed the mix. (Scholars and passionate nationalists: I know I am generalizing....)

Layer all of this onto a foreign American culture, discrimination, two world wars, economic depression and the Cold War and it becomes clear that no simple solution or easy fix "solves" the American "problem."

Rather than offering wisecracks and anathemas, hard work and effort on your parish level and from it personal spiritual growth is the true path. Be patient, the Church moves on God's time,not man's.
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« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2013, 11:04:31 PM »

If North America were to be united under the EP, would it ever gain independence or would it remain indefinitely under the control of the EP?

Hard to speculate on a hypothetical scenario.  How many jurisdictions have the EP granted autocephally of since the Turkish Yoke?
That it wasn't forced to? One, Poland, and that was because it wasn't in its jurisdiction.
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« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2013, 11:04:31 PM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar.  

Uh, "swelling"? Really? Wishful thinking indeed.
At the reception of the Tomos of Autocephaly, a few parishes switched outright.  It was part of the controversy at the time.

I know OCA parishes where the majority of the parish are former GOA, and others with a sizable number of former GOA.  Our small Antiochian parish has several GOA families, and we are not alone in that.

I also know a number of GOA parishes served by OCA clergy, in particularly the Anglophones (i.e. the growing segment).s

Anecdotal evidence, at best, if evidence at all, Isa.

My Greek priest served in the OCA and with the Serbs for years and this factoid is meaningless to your narrative. So what? Should I consider it to be a counter argument to yours? No, neither mean anything.

How many Greek parishes have Arabs and other non-Greeks? Plenty. Again, what you "know" seems like not a lot.
You didn't ask me about the Arabs at Greek parishes. In the past, lots.  Up until the early '70s, perhaps the majority, due to the schism amongst the Antiochians and the schisms over the Russian Metropolia.  Is that the present trend?  No.

I know that there are a lot of non-Greeks at Greek parishes: I had to go to the Greek Cathedral in Chicago once over the topic of a mixed marriage, which form the majority (or did at least then, early '90's). No problem there.  Will that trend continue?  It seems so.  What will that do with orientation towards the Phanar when more in the GOA weren't raised with him as their ethnarch?

Are those non-Greeks coming from the OCA?

As for your Greek priest, depends why he was serving with the OCA and the Serbs, as to whether that factoid has meaning, in my narrative or any one else's. What trend was he in? and is it continuing?

The Abp. Spyridon incident changed the dynamic with the Phanar.  That trend is continuing.
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« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2013, 12:25:02 AM »

I'm pretty new to this whole jurisdictional debate thing, but I was reading a few books about the current status of the several Orthodox jurisdictions across the world, and America of course came up, and well, having no other way to put it, it seems like with all due respect that the EP is singlehandedly responsible for all of North America's jurisdictional problems. If we had followed St. Tikhon's original plan, then a unified American Orthodox Church could have existed in the first half of the 20th century, but the EP had to claim ecclessiastical jurisdiction in 1922, which destroyed this plan. And to this very day, the EP has been more stubbornly concerned with keeping EJ, at America's expense. I'm not one to insult the heirarchs, but that's sorta seems like a butt-hole move....I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.
Are these posts on a whim? Seriously? Anathematize the EP and remove him from the Church because of a jurisdiction issue? Do you understand how grave an anathema is? His All Holiness is not Arius. Honestly, the nerve to say that he should be anathematized is unbelievable. I should be anathematized before he is, he is a far better person than I am, no matter what you think of his actions.

Just... wow.
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« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2013, 06:00:27 AM »

Spot on, Antonis.
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« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2013, 06:33:06 AM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar.  

Uh, "swelling"? Really? Wishful thinking indeed.
At the reception of the Tomos of Autocephaly, a few parishes switched outright.  It was part of the controversy at the time.

I know OCA parishes where the majority of the parish are former GOA, and others with a sizable number of former GOA.  Our small Antiochian parish has several GOA families, and we are not alone in that.

I also know a number of GOA parishes served by OCA clergy, in particularly the Anglophones (i.e. the growing segment).s

Anecdotal evidence, at best, if evidence at all, Isa.

My Greek priest served in the OCA and with the Serbs for years and this factoid is meaningless to your narrative. So what? Should I consider it to be a counter argument to yours? No, neither mean anything.

How many Greek parishes have Arabs and other non-Greeks? Plenty. Again, what you "know" seems like not a lot.
You didn't ask me about the Arabs at Greek parishes. In the past, lots.  Up until the early '70s, perhaps the majority, due to the schism amongst the Antiochians and the schisms over the Russian Metropolia.  Is that the present trend?  No.

Surely you've some sources to back up your "current trend".

Quote
I know that there are a lot of non-Greeks at Greek parishes: I had to go to the Greek Cathedral in Chicago once over the topic of a mixed marriage, which form the majority (or did at least then, early '90's). No problem there.  Will that trend continue?  It seems so.  What will that do with orientation towards the Phanar when more in the GOA weren't raised with him as their ethnarch?

Implying, I assume that I was referring to the converted-for-marriage as "other non-Greeks; I wasn't.

Quote
Are those non-Greeks coming from the OCA?

Sure were in my hometown. Still are from what my sisters tell me. The OCA parish has virtually grown little, if any, and the Antiochian not at all in the last twenty years.
The Greek parish is up 50% and that with a new parish forming 15 miles away and that at now 35% of the first.
 
Quote
As for your Greek priest, depends why he was serving with the OCA and the Serbs, as to whether that factoid has meaning, in my narrative or any one else's. What trend was he in? and is it continuing?

Clever there.... answer with a question, but one the answers to which still are nebulous at best, irrelevant more likely. You brought up the Greeks having OCA priests. I merely posted that the door swings both ways. I agree - your point is irrelevant.

Quote
The Abp. Spyridon incident changed the dynamic with the Phanar.  That trend is continuing.

Maybe, but you haven't proved that or if so exactly what that dynamic is.
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« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2013, 06:35:06 AM »

Spot on, Antonis.

Yes, he is. I have to wonder what "books" the OP is reading. More likely some Internet trash.
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« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2013, 06:44:07 AM »

I'm not one to insult the heirarchs, but that's sorta seems like a butt-hole move....I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.

James, you are priceless.
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« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2013, 07:47:48 AM »

I'm pretty new to this whole jurisdictional debate thing, but I was reading a few books about the current status of the several Orthodox jurisdictions across the world, and America of course came up, and well, having no other way to put it, it seems like with all due respect that the EP is singlehandedly responsible for all of North America's jurisdictional problems. If we had followed St. Tikhon's original plan, then a unified American Orthodox Church could have existed in the first half of the 20th century, but the EP had to claim ecclessiastical jurisdiction in 1922, which destroyed this plan. And to this very day, the EP has been more stubbornly concerned with keeping EJ, at America's expense. I'm not one to insult the heirarchs, but that's sorta seems like a butt-hole move....I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.

Why on earth would you hope someone anathematises the EP? Do you ever stop to think things through before you post them? I know you're young and you'll probably grow out of it, but I really would recommend careful consideration of every thought before committing it to words that others can see or hear.

James

Yeah JamesR... Is Outrage!  (LOL)

So I get mocked for urging someone to think things through before committing them to a post? Maybe you should heed my advice also... only you don't have the excuse of teenage over-enthusiasm that JamesR does, do you?

James
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« Reply #60 on: March 14, 2013, 08:34:18 AM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar.  

Uh, "swelling"? Really? Wishful thinking indeed.
At the reception of the Tomos of Autocephaly, a few parishes switched outright.  It was part of the controversy at the time.

I know OCA parishes where the majority of the parish are former GOA, and others with a sizable number of former GOA.  Our small Antiochian parish has several GOA families, and we are not alone in that.

I also know a number of GOA parishes served by OCA clergy, in particularly the Anglophones (i.e. the growing segment).s

Anecdotal evidence, at best, if evidence at all, Isa.

My Greek priest served in the OCA and with the Serbs for years and this factoid is meaningless to your narrative. So what? Should I consider it to be a counter argument to yours? No, neither mean anything.

How many Greek parishes have Arabs and other non-Greeks? Plenty. Again, what you "know" seems like not a lot.
You didn't ask me about the Arabs at Greek parishes. In the past, lots.  Up until the early '70s, perhaps the majority, due to the schism amongst the Antiochians and the schisms over the Russian Metropolia.  Is that the present trend?  No.

Surely you've some sources to back up your "current trend".

Quote
I know that there are a lot of non-Greeks at Greek parishes: I had to go to the Greek Cathedral in Chicago once over the topic of a mixed marriage, which form the majority (or did at least then, early '90's). No problem there.  Will that trend continue?  It seems so.  What will that do with orientation towards the Phanar when more in the GOA weren't raised with him as their ethnarch?

Implying, I assume that I was referring to the converted-for-marriage as "other non-Greeks; I wasn't.

Quote
Are those non-Greeks coming from the OCA?

Sure were in my hometown. Still are from what my sisters tell me. The OCA parish has virtually grown little, if any, and the Antiochian not at all in the last twenty years.
The Greek parish is up 50% and that with a new parish forming 15 miles away and that at now 35% of the first.
 
Quote
As for your Greek priest, depends why he was serving with the OCA and the Serbs, as to whether that factoid has meaning, in my narrative or any one else's. What trend was he in? and is it continuing?

Clever there.... answer with a question, but one the answers to which still are nebulous at best, irrelevant more likely. You brought up the Greeks having OCA priests. I merely posted that the door swings both ways. I agree - your point is irrelevant.

Quote
The Abp. Spyridon incident changed the dynamic with the Phanar.  That trend is continuing.

Maybe, but you haven't proved that or if so exactly what that dynamic is.

The trends within American Orthodoxy have been posted here at least twice. Work on remembering.

By population the GOA is by far the largest jurisdiction in NA with the slowest (almost nil) growth rate, which can be chalked up to birth.

The OCA has as many if not a few more parishes than the GOA with a substantial growth rate.

The Antiochians have a fewer parishes than the OCA with a slightly better growth rate.

In attendance, the numbers are also striking and unsurprising.

IIRC.

In other words, the GOA is in stasis. Orthodoxy elsewhere is growing in America with a greater variety and vibrancy than pangyrofests and car auctions have to offer.
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« Reply #61 on: March 14, 2013, 08:36:12 AM »

I'm pretty new to this whole jurisdictional debate thing, but I was reading a few books about the current status of the several Orthodox jurisdictions across the world, and America of course came up, and well, having no other way to put it, it seems like with all due respect that the EP is singlehandedly responsible for all of North America's jurisdictional problems. If we had followed St. Tikhon's original plan, then a unified American Orthodox Church could have existed in the first half of the 20th century, but the EP had to claim ecclessiastical jurisdiction in 1922, which destroyed this plan. And to this very day, the EP has been more stubbornly concerned with keeping EJ, at America's expense. I'm not one to insult the heirarchs, but that's sorta seems like a butt-hole move....I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.

Why on earth would you hope someone anathematises the EP? Do you ever stop to think things through before you post them? I know you're young and you'll probably grow out of it, but I really would recommend careful consideration of every thought before committing it to words that others can see or hear.

James

Yeah JamesR... Is Outrage!  (LOL)

So I get mocked for urging someone to think things through before committing them to a post? Maybe you should heed my advice also... only you don't have the excuse of teenage over-enthusiasm that JamesR does, do you?

James

Consider, and then discount, the source, James.
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« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2013, 08:37:13 AM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar. 

Uh, "swelling"? Really? Wishful thinking indeed.
At the reception of the Tomos of Autocephaly, a few parishes switched outright.  It was part of the controversy at the time.

I know OCA parishes where the majority of the parish are former GOA, and others with a sizable number of former GOA.  Our small Antiochian parish has several GOA families, and we are not alone in that.

I also know a number of GOA parishes served by OCA clergy, in particularly the Anglophones (i.e. the growing segment).s

Anecdotal evidence, at best, if evidence at all, Isa.

My Greek priest served in the OCA and with the Serbs for years and this factoid is meaningless to your narrative. So what? Should I consider it to be a counter argument to yours? No, neither mean anything.

How many Greek parishes have Arabs and other non-Greeks? Plenty. Again, what you "know" seems like not a lot.
You didn't ask me about the Arabs at Greek parishes. In the past, lots.  Up until the early '70s, perhaps the majority, due to the schism amongst the Antiochians and the schisms over the Russian Metropolia.  Is that the present trend?  No.

Surely you've some sources to back up your "current trend".

Quote
I know that there are a lot of non-Greeks at Greek parishes: I had to go to the Greek Cathedral in Chicago once over the topic of a mixed marriage, which form the majority (or did at least then, early '90's). No problem there.  Will that trend continue?  It seems so.  What will that do with orientation towards the Phanar when more in the GOA weren't raised with him as their ethnarch?

Implying, I assume that I was referring to the converted-for-marriage as "other non-Greeks; I wasn't.

Quote
Are those non-Greeks coming from the OCA?

Sure were in my hometown. Still are from what my sisters tell me. The OCA parish has virtually grown little, if any, and the Antiochian not at all in the last twenty years.
The Greek parish is up 50% and that with a new parish forming 15 miles away and that at now 35% of the first.
 
Quote
As for your Greek priest, depends why he was serving with the OCA and the Serbs, as to whether that factoid has meaning, in my narrative or any one else's. What trend was he in? and is it continuing?

Clever there.... answer with a question, but one the answers to which still are nebulous at best, irrelevant more likely. You brought up the Greeks having OCA priests. I merely posted that the door swings both ways. I agree - your point is irrelevant.

Quote
The Abp. Spyridon incident changed the dynamic with the Phanar.  That trend is continuing.

Maybe, but you haven't proved that or if so exactly what that dynamic is.

The trends within American Orthodoxy have been posted here at least twice. Work on remembering.

By population the GOA is by far the largest jurisdiction in NA with the slowest (almost nil) growth rate, which can be chalked up to birth.

The OCA has as many if not a few more parishes than the GOA with a substantial growth rate.

The Antiochians have a fewer parishes than the OCA with a slightly better growth rate.

In attendance, the numbers are also striking and unsurprising.

IIRC.

In other words, the GOA is in stasis. Orthodoxy elsewhere is growing in America with a greater variety and vibrancy than pangyrofests and car auctions have to offer.

Check your claims, first, probie.
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« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2013, 08:39:23 AM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar. 

Uh, "swelling"? Really? Wishful thinking indeed.
At the reception of the Tomos of Autocephaly, a few parishes switched outright.  It was part of the controversy at the time.

I know OCA parishes where the majority of the parish are former GOA, and others with a sizable number of former GOA.  Our small Antiochian parish has several GOA families, and we are not alone in that.

I also know a number of GOA parishes served by OCA clergy, in particularly the Anglophones (i.e. the growing segment).s

Anecdotal evidence, at best, if evidence at all, Isa.

My Greek priest served in the OCA and with the Serbs for years and this factoid is meaningless to your narrative. So what? Should I consider it to be a counter argument to yours? No, neither mean anything.

How many Greek parishes have Arabs and other non-Greeks? Plenty. Again, what you "know" seems like not a lot.
You didn't ask me about the Arabs at Greek parishes. In the past, lots.  Up until the early '70s, perhaps the majority, due to the schism amongst the Antiochians and the schisms over the Russian Metropolia.  Is that the present trend?  No.

Surely you've some sources to back up your "current trend".

Quote
I know that there are a lot of non-Greeks at Greek parishes: I had to go to the Greek Cathedral in Chicago once over the topic of a mixed marriage, which form the majority (or did at least then, early '90's). No problem there.  Will that trend continue?  It seems so.  What will that do with orientation towards the Phanar when more in the GOA weren't raised with him as their ethnarch?

Implying, I assume that I was referring to the converted-for-marriage as "other non-Greeks; I wasn't.

Quote
Are those non-Greeks coming from the OCA?

Sure were in my hometown. Still are from what my sisters tell me. The OCA parish has virtually grown little, if any, and the Antiochian not at all in the last twenty years.
The Greek parish is up 50% and that with a new parish forming 15 miles away and that at now 35% of the first.
 
Quote
As for your Greek priest, depends why he was serving with the OCA and the Serbs, as to whether that factoid has meaning, in my narrative or any one else's. What trend was he in? and is it continuing?

Clever there.... answer with a question, but one the answers to which still are nebulous at best, irrelevant more likely. You brought up the Greeks having OCA priests. I merely posted that the door swings both ways. I agree - your point is irrelevant.

Quote
The Abp. Spyridon incident changed the dynamic with the Phanar.  That trend is continuing.

Maybe, but you haven't proved that or if so exactly what that dynamic is.

The trends within American Orthodoxy have been posted here at least twice. Work on remembering.

By population the GOA is by far the largest jurisdiction in NA with the slowest (almost nil) growth rate, which can be chalked up to birth.

The OCA has as many if not a few more parishes than the GOA with a substantial growth rate.

The Antiochians have a fewer parishes than the OCA with a slightly better growth rate.

In attendance, the numbers are also striking and unsurprising.

IIRC.

In other words, the GOA is in stasis. Orthodoxy elsewhere is growing in America with a greater variety and vibrancy than pangyrofests and car auctions have to offer.

Check your claims, first, probie.

They are here. You look them up. I am going to have a gyro today I think, I am just not going to sling low grade ones to keep the glitz on.
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« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2013, 08:53:20 AM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar. 

Uh, "swelling"? Really? Wishful thinking indeed.
At the reception of the Tomos of Autocephaly, a few parishes switched outright.  It was part of the controversy at the time.

I know OCA parishes where the majority of the parish are former GOA, and others with a sizable number of former GOA.  Our small Antiochian parish has several GOA families, and we are not alone in that.

I also know a number of GOA parishes served by OCA clergy, in particularly the Anglophones (i.e. the growing segment).s

Anecdotal evidence, at best, if evidence at all, Isa.

My Greek priest served in the OCA and with the Serbs for years and this factoid is meaningless to your narrative. So what? Should I consider it to be a counter argument to yours? No, neither mean anything.

How many Greek parishes have Arabs and other non-Greeks? Plenty. Again, what you "know" seems like not a lot.
You didn't ask me about the Arabs at Greek parishes. In the past, lots.  Up until the early '70s, perhaps the majority, due to the schism amongst the Antiochians and the schisms over the Russian Metropolia.  Is that the present trend?  No.

Surely you've some sources to back up your "current trend".

Quote
I know that there are a lot of non-Greeks at Greek parishes: I had to go to the Greek Cathedral in Chicago once over the topic of a mixed marriage, which form the majority (or did at least then, early '90's). No problem there.  Will that trend continue?  It seems so.  What will that do with orientation towards the Phanar when more in the GOA weren't raised with him as their ethnarch?

Implying, I assume that I was referring to the converted-for-marriage as "other non-Greeks; I wasn't.

Quote
Are those non-Greeks coming from the OCA?

Sure were in my hometown. Still are from what my sisters tell me. The OCA parish has virtually grown little, if any, and the Antiochian not at all in the last twenty years.
The Greek parish is up 50% and that with a new parish forming 15 miles away and that at now 35% of the first.
 
Quote
As for your Greek priest, depends why he was serving with the OCA and the Serbs, as to whether that factoid has meaning, in my narrative or any one else's. What trend was he in? and is it continuing?

Clever there.... answer with a question, but one the answers to which still are nebulous at best, irrelevant more likely. You brought up the Greeks having OCA priests. I merely posted that the door swings both ways. I agree - your point is irrelevant.

Quote
The Abp. Spyridon incident changed the dynamic with the Phanar.  That trend is continuing.

Maybe, but you haven't proved that or if so exactly what that dynamic is.

The trends within American Orthodoxy have been posted here at least twice. Work on remembering.

By population the GOA is by far the largest jurisdiction in NA with the slowest (almost nil) growth rate, which can be chalked up to birth.

The OCA has as many if not a few more parishes than the GOA with a substantial growth rate.

The Antiochians have a fewer parishes than the OCA with a slightly better growth rate.

In attendance, the numbers are also striking and unsurprising.

IIRC.

In other words, the GOA is in stasis. Orthodoxy elsewhere is growing in America with a greater variety and vibrancy than pangyrofests and car auctions have to offer.

Check your claims, first, probie.

They are here. You look them up. I am going to have a gyro today I think, I am just not going to sling low grade ones to keep the glitz on.

But of course it is not a fast day for you. First reason to dismiss your opinion.

Those so ready to ever-bash the EP here are of the usual gang of miscreants.

When I see the OCA absorb the NA ROCOR parishes, when I see the MP parishes joining the OCA, when I see the N/A Antiochians merging with the OCA, THEN I will think you all MIGHT have some issues with the EP (and the Serbs, and the Romanians). But until then you are just noise.
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« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2013, 08:58:21 AM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar. 

Uh, "swelling"? Really? Wishful thinking indeed.
At the reception of the Tomos of Autocephaly, a few parishes switched outright.  It was part of the controversy at the time.

I know OCA parishes where the majority of the parish are former GOA, and others with a sizable number of former GOA.  Our small Antiochian parish has several GOA families, and we are not alone in that.

I also know a number of GOA parishes served by OCA clergy, in particularly the Anglophones (i.e. the growing segment).s

Anecdotal evidence, at best, if evidence at all, Isa.

My Greek priest served in the OCA and with the Serbs for years and this factoid is meaningless to your narrative. So what? Should I consider it to be a counter argument to yours? No, neither mean anything.

How many Greek parishes have Arabs and other non-Greeks? Plenty. Again, what you "know" seems like not a lot.
You didn't ask me about the Arabs at Greek parishes. In the past, lots.  Up until the early '70s, perhaps the majority, due to the schism amongst the Antiochians and the schisms over the Russian Metropolia.  Is that the present trend?  No.

Surely you've some sources to back up your "current trend".

Quote
I know that there are a lot of non-Greeks at Greek parishes: I had to go to the Greek Cathedral in Chicago once over the topic of a mixed marriage, which form the majority (or did at least then, early '90's). No problem there.  Will that trend continue?  It seems so.  What will that do with orientation towards the Phanar when more in the GOA weren't raised with him as their ethnarch?

Implying, I assume that I was referring to the converted-for-marriage as "other non-Greeks; I wasn't.

Quote
Are those non-Greeks coming from the OCA?

Sure were in my hometown. Still are from what my sisters tell me. The OCA parish has virtually grown little, if any, and the Antiochian not at all in the last twenty years.
The Greek parish is up 50% and that with a new parish forming 15 miles away and that at now 35% of the first.
 
Quote
As for your Greek priest, depends why he was serving with the OCA and the Serbs, as to whether that factoid has meaning, in my narrative or any one else's. What trend was he in? and is it continuing?

Clever there.... answer with a question, but one the answers to which still are nebulous at best, irrelevant more likely. You brought up the Greeks having OCA priests. I merely posted that the door swings both ways. I agree - your point is irrelevant.

Quote
The Abp. Spyridon incident changed the dynamic with the Phanar.  That trend is continuing.

Maybe, but you haven't proved that or if so exactly what that dynamic is.

The trends within American Orthodoxy have been posted here at least twice. Work on remembering.

By population the GOA is by far the largest jurisdiction in NA with the slowest (almost nil) growth rate, which can be chalked up to birth.

The OCA has as many if not a few more parishes than the GOA with a substantial growth rate.

The Antiochians have a fewer parishes than the OCA with a slightly better growth rate.

In attendance, the numbers are also striking and unsurprising.

IIRC.

In other words, the GOA is in stasis. Orthodoxy elsewhere is growing in America with a greater variety and vibrancy than pangyrofests and car auctions have to offer.

Check your claims, first, probie.

They are here. You look them up. I am going to have a gyro today I think, I am just not going to sling low grade ones to keep the glitz on.

But of course it is not a fast day for you. First reason to dismiss your opinion.

Hook.
Line.
Sinker.

Sheesh, you are too easy. What happened to looking at your own plate? Which the Greeks don't around here as they sling gryos and sell cars during fasts.
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« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2013, 09:08:02 AM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar. 

Uh, "swelling"? Really? Wishful thinking indeed.
At the reception of the Tomos of Autocephaly, a few parishes switched outright.  It was part of the controversy at the time.

I know OCA parishes where the majority of the parish are former GOA, and others with a sizable number of former GOA.  Our small Antiochian parish has several GOA families, and we are not alone in that.

I also know a number of GOA parishes served by OCA clergy, in particularly the Anglophones (i.e. the growing segment).s

Anecdotal evidence, at best, if evidence at all, Isa.

My Greek priest served in the OCA and with the Serbs for years and this factoid is meaningless to your narrative. So what? Should I consider it to be a counter argument to yours? No, neither mean anything.

How many Greek parishes have Arabs and other non-Greeks? Plenty. Again, what you "know" seems like not a lot.
You didn't ask me about the Arabs at Greek parishes. In the past, lots.  Up until the early '70s, perhaps the majority, due to the schism amongst the Antiochians and the schisms over the Russian Metropolia.  Is that the present trend?  No.

Surely you've some sources to back up your "current trend".

Quote
I know that there are a lot of non-Greeks at Greek parishes: I had to go to the Greek Cathedral in Chicago once over the topic of a mixed marriage, which form the majority (or did at least then, early '90's). No problem there.  Will that trend continue?  It seems so.  What will that do with orientation towards the Phanar when more in the GOA weren't raised with him as their ethnarch?

Implying, I assume that I was referring to the converted-for-marriage as "other non-Greeks; I wasn't.

Quote
Are those non-Greeks coming from the OCA?

Sure were in my hometown. Still are from what my sisters tell me. The OCA parish has virtually grown little, if any, and the Antiochian not at all in the last twenty years.
The Greek parish is up 50% and that with a new parish forming 15 miles away and that at now 35% of the first.
 
Quote
As for your Greek priest, depends why he was serving with the OCA and the Serbs, as to whether that factoid has meaning, in my narrative or any one else's. What trend was he in? and is it continuing?

Clever there.... answer with a question, but one the answers to which still are nebulous at best, irrelevant more likely. You brought up the Greeks having OCA priests. I merely posted that the door swings both ways. I agree - your point is irrelevant.

Quote
The Abp. Spyridon incident changed the dynamic with the Phanar.  That trend is continuing.

Maybe, but you haven't proved that or if so exactly what that dynamic is.

The trends within American Orthodoxy have been posted here at least twice. Work on remembering.

By population the GOA is by far the largest jurisdiction in NA with the slowest (almost nil) growth rate, which can be chalked up to birth.

The OCA has as many if not a few more parishes than the GOA with a substantial growth rate.

The Antiochians have a fewer parishes than the OCA with a slightly better growth rate.

In attendance, the numbers are also striking and unsurprising.

IIRC.

In other words, the GOA is in stasis. Orthodoxy elsewhere is growing in America with a greater variety and vibrancy than pangyrofests and car auctions have to offer.

Check your claims, first, probie.

They are here. You look them up. I am going to have a gyro today I think, I am just not going to sling low grade ones to keep the glitz on.

But of course it is not a fast day for you. First reason to dismiss your opinion.

Hook.
Line.
Sinker.

Sheesh, you are too easy. What happened to looking at your own plate? Which the Greeks don't around here as they sling gryos and sell cars during fasts.

Best you can do? Bah!
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« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2013, 10:40:26 AM »

I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.
EP bashing seems too popular here!
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« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2013, 10:52:58 AM »

EP bashing seems too popular here!

Must be a Freudian thing.
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« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2013, 11:10:42 AM »

I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.
EP bashing seems too popular here!

It's because he talks about being Green outside of Pentecost.  That is just wrong.
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« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2013, 11:11:34 AM »

I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.
EP bashing seems too popular here!

Judging by the reactions on this thread, it seems to me it's not common at all. Of course, if you choose to define EP bashing to include the entirely Orthodox view that the Patriarch of Constantinople is not the head of the Church it may seem otherwise to you...

James
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« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2013, 11:19:56 AM »

Of course, if you choose to define EP bashing to include the...view that the Patriarch of Constantinople is not the head of the Church it may seem otherwise to you...
I do, it does, it is.
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« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2013, 11:30:00 AM »

I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.
EP bashing seems too popular here!

Only among certain posters.  Seriously, if you're basing your conclusion off of the posts of a pubescent new convert who fetishizes ROCOR, you're acting like a fool.
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« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2013, 11:56:33 AM »

Of course, if you choose to define EP bashing to include the...view that the Patriarch of Constantinople is not the head of the Church it may seem otherwise to you...
I do, it does, it is.

I know you do, which is why I made the comment. Fortunately your view is decidedly a minority one. JamesR's OP could accurately be described as EP bashing, pointing out the EP's position in the Church, though, certainly cannot, to be honest not even if you disagree with the opposing (i.e. the Orthodox - expunge it from my comments all you like, it doesn't make the fact go away) interpretation.

James
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« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2013, 12:13:49 PM »

Of course, if you choose to define EP bashing to include the...view that the Patriarch of Constantinople is not the head of the Church it may seem otherwise to you...
I do, it does, it is.

This thread is only going to get worse I fear...
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« Reply #75 on: March 14, 2013, 12:31:06 PM »

n
.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar.  

Uh, "swelling"? Really? Wishful thinking indeed.
At the reception of the Tomos of Autocephaly, a few parishes switched outright.  It was part of the controversy at the time.

I know OCA parishes where the majority of the parish are former GOA, and others with a sizable number of former GOA.  Our small Antiochian parish has several GOA families, and we are not alone in that.

I also know a number of GOA parishes served by OCA clergy, in particularly the Anglophones (i.e. the growing segment).s

Anecdotal evidence, at best, if evidence at all, Isa.

My Greek priest served in the OCA and with the Serbs for years and this factoid is meaningless to your narrative. So what? Should I consider it to be a counter argument to yours? No, neither mean anything.

How many Greek parishes have Arabs and other non-Greeks? Plenty. Again, what you "know" seems like not a lot.
You didn't ask me about the Arabs at Greek parishes. In the past, lots.  Up until the early '70s, perhaps the majority, due to the schism amongst the Antiochians and the schisms over the Russian Metropolia.  Is that the present trend?  No.

Surely you've some sources to back up your "current trend".

Quote
I know that there are a lot of non-Greeks at Greek parishes: I had to go to the Greek Cathedral in Chicago once over the topic of a mixed marriage, which form the majority (or did at least then, early '90's). No problem there.  Will that trend continue?  It seems so.  What will that do with orientation towards the Phanar when more in the GOA weren't raised with him as their ethnarch?

Implying, I assume that I was referring to the converted-for-marriage as "other non-Greeks; I wasn't.

Quote
Are those non-Greeks coming from the OCA?

Sure were in my hometown. Still are from what my sisters tell me. The OCA parish has virtually grown little, if any, and the Antiochian not at all in the last twenty years.
The Greek parish is up 50% and that with a new parish forming 15 miles away and that at now 35% of the first.
 
Quote
As for your Greek priest, depends why he was serving with the OCA and the Serbs, as to whether that factoid has meaning, in my narrative or any one else's. What trend was he in? and is it continuing?

Clever there.... answer with a question, but one the answers to which still are nebulous at best, irrelevant more likely. You brought up the Greeks having OCA priests. I merely posted that the door swings both ways. I agree - your point is irrelevant.

Quote
The Abp. Spyridon incident changed the dynamic with the Phanar.  That trend is continuing.

Maybe, but you haven't proved that or if so exactly what that dynamic is.

The trends within American Orthodoxy have been posted here at least twice. Work on remembering.

By population the GOA is by far the largest jurisdiction in NA with the slowest (almost nil) growth rate, which can be chalked up to birth.

The OCA has as many if not a few more parishes than the GOA with a substantial growth rate.

The Antiochians have a fewer parishes than the OCA with a slightly better growth rate.

In attendance, the numbers are also striking and unsurprising.

IIRC.

In other words, the GOA is in stasis. Orthodoxy elsewhere is growing in America with a greater variety and vibrancy than pangyrofests and car auctions have to offer.

The OCA's membership has been in substantial decline since the early 1980's.  Their mailing list for "The Orthodox Church," is less than 33 thousand.

Between 1998 and 2011, the GOAA's mailing list for the "Orthodox Observer" increased from 125,000 to 165,000.  (Krindatch's study did reveal higher church attendance rates in the OCA parishes compared to the GOAA.)

The national ministries budget of the GOAA is more than $25,000,000; the national budget of the OCA is around $2,000,000.

To quote ROCOR's non-recognition statement as to the OCA's autocephaly, "...the Greek [Orthodox] Archdiocese is larger and better organized."   In my area of Northeast Ohio, an area of comparatively significant pan-Orthodox membership, the OCA parishes have declined in membership by 50% over the past 20 years; (only one of their smaller parish's membership was stable).
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« Reply #76 on: March 14, 2013, 01:16:15 PM »

To quote ROCOR's non-recognition statement as to the OCA's autocephaly,

Like that matters at all...
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« Reply #77 on: March 14, 2013, 01:21:22 PM »

The trends within American Orthodoxy have been posted here at least twice. Work on remembering.

By population the GOA is by far the largest jurisdiction in NA with the slowest (almost nil) growth rate, which can be chalked up to birth.

The OCA has as many if not a few more parishes than the GOA with a substantial growth rate.

The Antiochians have a fewer parishes than the OCA with a slightly better growth rate.

In attendance, the numbers are also striking and unsurprising.

IIRC.

In other words, the GOA is in stasis. Orthodoxy elsewhere is growing in America with a greater variety and vibrancy than pangyrofests and car auctions have to offer.

The OCA's membership has been in substantial decline since the early 1980's.  Their mailing list for "The Orthodox Church," is less than 33 thousand.

Between 1998 and 2011, the GOAA's mailing list for the "Orthodox Observer" increased from 125,000 to 165,000.  (Krindatch's study did reveal higher church attendance rates in the OCA parishes compared to the GOAA.)

The national ministries budget of the GOAA is more than $25,000,000; the national budget of the OCA is around $2,000,000.

To quote ROCOR's non-recognition statement as to the OCA's autocephaly, "...the Greek [Orthodox] Archdiocese is larger and better organized."   In my area of Northeast Ohio, an area of comparatively significant pan-Orthodox membership, the OCA parishes have declined in membership by 50% over the past 20 years; (only one of their smaller parish's membership was stable).
The GOA has the money, of that there is no dispute. Just look at the list of "Archons of the Ecumenical Throne."  Btw, there is a connection, in that "The Orthodox Church" was sent to OCA pledge members.

As for ROCOR, I've been told by plenty of its members that the Patriarch of Moscow regularized his position by signing the Act of Canonical Communion, not ROCOR's.  So I wouldn't put too much in its statement of the obvious, quoted above (btw, where is it quoted from?)

Though our (Orthodox in general) stronghold lay in the Ohio Valley into Pennsylvania and the surrounding area, given the decline in the area in everything, a more even area of investigation would be the South, and how their parishes are doing.

As for now, Abp. Demetrios (Many Years!) is at the helm, and all is fine.  Time will tell if Met. Tikhon can turn the OCA around (which, given the mismanagement and scandals, and lack of secular support propping it up, should have disappeared long ago).  I would like to know why Met. Sotirios request to get out from under Abp. Chairmanship at ACOBNCA has not been granted.  It might indicate where things are going to go with North America and EP Bartholomew (note: not with the Ecumenical Patriarchate and Phanar).
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« Reply #78 on: March 14, 2013, 01:55:27 PM »

I wish Metropolitan Tikhon the best, but he has a monstrous task turning the OCA around administratively, particularly their need to cultivate a competent hierarchy.  I will tell you, a GOAA priest who knows him told me of what a fine hierarch is Met. Tikhon, that "he can serve the OCA well," and in Greek he added, "if they don't eat him up."

I disagree with spinning Canada off from the territory of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North & Central America---an ultimately administratively unified organized church in this hemisphere will be strengthened by American, Canadian, and Mexican cohesion---national semi-autonomy perhaps, but there is no need for a national church---the church was historically organized in regions.  My sense is that Metropolitan Soterios' ego is more at work in this matter than concern for the welfare of the church; Canadian Orthodoxy is pretty small alone.

I think Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't have the authority to change the boundaries established by the Pan-Orthodox Commission; he would have to present it to a future meeting of the Commission.  The last meeting ended in discord, so until he can repair the Ecumenical Patriarchate's relationship problems with the Churches of Russia and Romania, he won't convene the commission.  However, he must agree with the split because he's not taking issue with Metropolitan Soterios' non-participation in ACOB meetings.
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« Reply #79 on: March 14, 2013, 03:16:05 PM »

I wish Metropolitan Tikhon the best, but he has a monstrous task turning the OCA around administratively, particularly their need to cultivate a competent hierarchy.  I will tell you, a GOAA priest who knows him told me of what a fine hierarch is Met. Tikhon, that "he can serve the OCA well," and in Greek he added, "if they don't eat him up."
I agree.  Btw, I know His Beatitude personally. He went to Church with me on his way into the Church.  His godmother is now a parishioner at my parish.
I disagree with spinning Canada off from the territory of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North & Central America---an ultimately administratively unified organized church in this hemisphere will be strengthened by American, Canadian, and Mexican cohesion---national semi-autonomy perhaps, but there is no need for a national church---the church was historically organized in regions.  My sense is that Metropolitan Soterios' ego is more at work in this matter than concern for the welfare of the church; Canadian Orthodoxy is pretty small alone.
That is my read on it as well (though I think Omogeneia has a large part in his ego).  I would hope that a united Church would have a set up like the OCA "Ethnic Dioceses", which would be helped by a united Ukrainian Orthodox presence, which would be helped by the Ukrainian Canadians being united with the Ukrainian Americans.

I take issue with the name OCA-it should be OCNA "Orthodox Church in North America."  "and Canda" seems to add it as an afterthought.

I think Patriarch Bartholomew doesn't have the authority to change the boundaries established by the Pan-Orthodox Commission; he would have to present it to a future meeting of the Commission.  The last meeting ended in discord, so until he can repair the Ecumenical Patriarchate's relationship problems with the Churches of Russia and Romania, he won't convene the commission.  However, he must agree with the split because he's not taking issue with Metropolitan Soterios' non-participation in ACOB meetings.
Are other bishops participating?  I mean, those whose entire dioceses are in Canada (I know there are those whose jurisdiction straddles the border).  That can take on a life of its own.
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« Reply #80 on: March 14, 2013, 05:20:05 PM »


I disagree with spinning Canada off from the territory of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North & Central America---an ultimately administratively unified organized church in this hemisphere will be strengthened by American, Canadian, and Mexican cohesion---national semi-autonomy perhaps, but there is no need for a national church---the church was historically organized in regions.  My sense is that Metropolitan Soterios' ego is more at work in this matter than concern for the welfare of the church; Canadian Orthodoxy is pretty small alone.

You're not Canadian, are you?
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« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2013, 05:29:33 PM »

Here's another question; why is Constantinople/Istantbul still home to the EP--the "first among equals" if it has little political signifance over there anymore? Don't the Canons say that Constantinople was only the first among equals after Rome because of its political and economic significance? America right now is a lot more powerful and politically significant, so why can't America be the new "first among equals" if it ever sees the establishment of a unified, autocephalous Church? I'm not trying to disrespect the EP, I'm really not. But I just feel kind of backstabbed by him. I converted to his religion, read books about him and saw him as a cool guy who wants to battle global warming, but then it seems like he only sees me as a statistic that he could make money off of and doesn't care about our diaspora's wellbeing. I understand now from reading posts here that it is a lot more confusing than it seems, and scapegoating the EP for everything is wrong, but still, you have to admit that he is doing nothing to make the situation better and in many cases, is at least contributing to the problem.
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« Reply #82 on: March 14, 2013, 05:31:24 PM »

Because the Councils of Constantinople I and Chalcedon gave the EP second place after Rome. There hasn't been an ecumenical council since 787, and back then Constantinople was still the capital of the Byzantine world and the Russians were a bunch of pagans.
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« Reply #83 on: March 14, 2013, 06:01:04 PM »

and the Russians were a bunch of pagans.

Russians appeared 1k years later.
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« Reply #84 on: March 14, 2013, 06:08:29 PM »

and the Russians were a bunch of pagans.

Russians appeared 1k years later.

Rus, Russians, all the same to me.
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« Reply #85 on: March 14, 2013, 06:09:01 PM »

What's the ROCOR compared with the GOA?

GOA is 17 times larger:
http://www.hartfordinstitute.org/research/2010-USOrthodox-Census.pdf
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« Reply #86 on: March 14, 2013, 06:14:43 PM »

Here's another question; why is Constantinople/Istantbul still home to the EP--the "first among equals" if it has little political signifance over there anymore? Don't the Canons say that Constantinople was only the first among equals after Rome because of its political and economic significance? America right now is a lot more powerful and politically significant, so why can't America be the new "first among equals" if it ever sees the establishment of a unified, autocephalous Church? I'm not trying to disrespect the EP, I'm really not. But I just feel kind of backstabbed by him. I converted to his religion, read books about him and saw him as a cool guy who wants to battle global warming, but then it seems like he only sees me as a statistic that he could make money off of and doesn't care about our diaspora's wellbeing. I understand now from reading posts here that it is a lot more confusing than it seems, and scapegoating the EP for everything is wrong, but still, you have to admit that he is doing nothing to make the situation better and in many cases, is at least contributing to the problem.
America isn't even in the running. It would be Moscow.

The thing is, that although it was chosen because of its secular importance, ecclesial importance accrues thereby: St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, St. Photios etc. serving as its primate, three Ecumenical Councils held in it (and another in the suburbs), etc.
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« Reply #87 on: March 14, 2013, 06:15:15 PM »

I love His Holiness dearly.  Great man.  That's not to discount the concerns about jurisdictional unity in the Americas; however, I still love the EP.
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« Reply #88 on: March 14, 2013, 07:01:38 PM »

I love His Holiness dearly.  Great man.  That's not to discount the concerns about jurisdictional unity in the Americas; however, I still love the EP.
I just uncovered my clipped newpaper article over EP Bartholomew's speech at Georgetown.  I liked that visit more than the more recent one.
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« Reply #89 on: March 14, 2013, 09:35:18 PM »

I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.
EP bashing seems too popular here!

Only among certain posters.  Seriously, if you're basing your conclusion off of the posts of a pubescent new convert who fetishizes ROCOR, you're acting like a fool.

I wish we could add sound effects. Schultz, you deserve a rimshot!   Smiley
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