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Author Topic: So...The Ecumenical Patriarchate & America  (Read 2406 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 13, 2013, 04:57:49 AM »

I'm pretty new to this whole jurisdictional debate thing, but I was reading a few books about the current status of the several Orthodox jurisdictions across the world, and America of course came up, and well, having no other way to put it, it seems like with all due respect that the EP is singlehandedly responsible for all of North America's jurisdictional problems. If we had followed St. Tikhon's original plan, then a unified American Orthodox Church could have existed in the first half of the 20th century, but the EP had to claim ecclessiastical jurisdiction in 1922, which destroyed this plan. And to this very day, the EP has been more stubbornly concerned with keeping EJ, at America's expense. I'm not one to insult the heirarchs, but that's sorta seems like a butt-hole move....I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2013, 05:02:34 AM »

You're forgetting a small historical matter: the Bolshevik Revolution.
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2013, 05:02:44 AM »

I'm pretty new to this whole jurisdictional debate thing, but I was reading a few books about the current status of the several Orthodox jurisdictions across the world, and America of course came up, and well, having no other way to put it, it seems like with all due respect that the EP is singlehandedly responsible for all of North America's jurisdictional problems. If we had followed St. Tikhon's original plan, then a unified American Orthodox Church could have existed in the first half of the 20th century, but the EP had to claim ecclessiastical jurisdiction in 1922, which destroyed this plan. And to this very day, the EP has been more stubbornly concerned with keeping EJ, at America's expense. I'm not one to insult the heirarchs, but that's sorta seems like a butt-hole move....I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.

Why on earth would you hope someone anathematises the EP? Do you ever stop to think things through before you post them? I know you're young and you'll probably grow out of it, but I really would recommend careful consideration of every thought before committing it to words that others can see or hear.

James
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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2013, 07:07:23 AM »

I don't think its that straightforward. I know in the Antiochian church, after St. Raphael of Brooklyn reposed there were big disagreements of where to go next. It was this argument that led to two Antiochian churches being formed in my city. The original parish wanted to go under Antioch after St. Raphael's departure because they wanted Arab bishops, while my parish formed because they wanted to stay where they were and accept the appointment by the Moscow Patriarchate. This led to the founders of my parish to be labeled as "Russophiles." However, my parish did eventually end up in the Antiochian jurisdiction (can't remember that part of the story).
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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2013, 08:09:52 AM »

I don't think its that straightforward. I know in the Antiochian church, after St. Raphael of Brooklyn reposed there were big disagreements of where to go next. It was this argument that led to two Antiochian churches being formed in my city. The original parish wanted to go under Antioch after St. Raphael's departure because they wanted Arab bishops, while my parish formed because they wanted to stay where they were and accept the appointment by the Moscow Patriarchate. This led to the founders of my parish to be labeled as "Russophiles." However, my parish did eventually end up in the Antiochian jurisdiction (can't remember that part of the story).


Thanks for posting this. It seems on the Internet, or from Russian sources, or here at OC.net, or at the traditionalists' Cafe, when the similar situation(s) arose for the Greeks in NA they get all the blame for the disorder we endure now. Nary a word about what the Romanians, the Serbs, the Bulgarians, your Antiochians, the Ukrainians, or even the mess the Russians themselves have, is mentioned.

The OP's wording is so outrageously crude and offensive it warrants no further response from me.
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2013, 08:19:03 AM »

I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.

Someone already did, in 1054.
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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2013, 08:49:33 AM »

Oooh, we get to anathemize patriarchs who assert jurisdiction in areas that we don't want them?  Can I anathemize all of them and start my own patriarchy cause that sounds like fun! Roll Eyes
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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2013, 09:07:13 AM »

You're forgetting a small historical matter: the Bolshevik Revolution.

The administration of the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia essentially fell apart with the elimination of the Church of Russia's financial support in March, 1917. Assuming eventual restoration of the Romanov Dynasty--and the Russian state church, Archbishop Alexandr mortgaged church properties to survive, but soon thereafter, due to law suites from the vile aberration of a church, the "Living Church," encouraged parishes to separate themselves from the Metropolia's direct administrative authority, while maintaining a spiritual connection.  And don't forget the Church of Russia anathematized the Metropolia somewhat later, although most of the American jurisdictions ignored the actions of the Soviet Communist controlled church, maintaining relations with the Metropolia, but it was in no position to administer itself, let alone the church of America. It took the Metropolia 30 years to even get its parishes to agree to operating statutes, given the distance their parishes felt they needed to maintain from their Central Church Administration.  And let's not ignore the proliferation of Russian jurisdictions, the Metropolia, the Patriarchal Church, and ROCOR---none of which shared communion (maybe except ROCOR, on and off); and later the Carpatho-Russian diocese.  Then there was the problem of the Ukrainian jurisdictions and their attitude toward the Russian-American jurisdictions.  When discussing matters of pan-Orthodox concerns among the American ecclesial jurisdictions, like the need for an American seminary in the mid-1930's, and the Russian-American people, who numerically were a significant presence, the discussion would stumble upon the question, "Which Russians?"  Those churches remain distinct administratively even today, while communion has been restored.

Proposing an anathema upon the venerable "First Throne" of the Holy Orthodox Church, the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the see of Orthodoxy's "First Among Equals," is uninformed and wholly irresponsible, and unnecessarily provocative, not to mention utterly unproductive.  No responsible advocate for the preeminence of the Orthodox Church in America's claim to autocephaly would ever desire such an action.

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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2013, 12:06:53 PM »

I don't think its that straightforward. I know in the Antiochian church, after St. Raphael of Brooklyn reposed there were big disagreements of where to go next. It was this argument that led to two Antiochian churches being formed in my city. The original parish wanted to go under Antioch after St. Raphael's departure because they wanted Arab bishops, while my parish formed because they wanted to stay where they were and accept the appointment by the Moscow Patriarchate. This led to the founders of my parish to be labeled as "Russophiles." However, my parish did eventually end up in the Antiochian jurisdiction (can't remember that part of the story).
Did they join during the Antiochian reunification in the 1970s or prior to it?
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2013, 12:13:20 PM »

I'm pretty new to this whole jurisdictional debate thing, but I was reading a few books about the current status of the several Orthodox jurisdictions across the world, and America of course came up, and well, having no other way to put it, it seems like with all due respect that the EP is singlehandedly responsible for all of North America's jurisdictional problems. If we had followed St. Tikhon's original plan, then a unified American Orthodox Church could have existed in the first half of the 20th century, but the EP had to claim ecclessiastical jurisdiction in 1922, which destroyed this plan. And to this very day, the EP has been more stubbornly concerned with keeping EJ, at America's expense. I'm not one to insult the heirarchs, but that's sorta seems like a butt-hole move....I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.

Why on earth would you hope someone anathematises the EP? Do you ever stop to think things through before you post them? I know you're young and you'll probably grow out of it, but I really would recommend careful consideration of every thought before committing it to words that others can see or hear.

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It's a power grab.  Who gets it?   We do - no we do.

Then you have wonderful EP's like St. Tikhon, who had a wonderful non-selfish plan.... But greed messed it up.  I don't agree that it was a "___-hole" move because that would be an act by immaturity.  I believe it was much more sinister -  a move fueled in complete greed, without consideration for the betterment of Orthodox Christianity in America.  Too much jurisdiction and money to be had.

Okay, I already know... Is Outrage!   Save the one liners of being ugly, you guys know it was greed.
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2013, 12:57:24 PM »


Then you have wonderful EP's like St. Tikhon, who had a wonderful non-selfish plan....


Wasn't St. Tikhon Patriarch of Russia?
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2013, 12:59:08 PM »


Then you have wonderful EP's like St. Tikhon, who had a wonderful non-selfish plan....


Wasn't St. Tikhon Patriarch of Russia?


Well spotted.  Grin
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2013, 01:07:59 PM »


Then you have wonderful EP's like St. Tikhon, who had a wonderful non-selfish plan....


Wasn't St. Tikhon Patriarch of Russia?


Well spotted.  Grin

Well, it might have been a spelling error.
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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2013, 01:09:13 PM »

America will come under the EP anyway, or the jurisdictional mess will stay. An autocephalous American Church isn't going to happen.
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2013, 02:05:10 PM »

America will come under the EP anyway, or the jurisdictional mess will stay. An autocephalous American Church isn't going to happen.
It has already happened.

America will come under the Phanar over the PoM's dead body, and that body is very much alive and kicking.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.
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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2013, 02:07:01 PM »

America will come under the EP anyway, or the jurisdictional mess will stay. An autocephalous American Church isn't going to happen.

And the jurisdictional mess *will* stay unless and until people in ecclesial power are willing to give it up and ALL that accompanies it.  Hmmm.....that oughta be interesting  Cool.  Just my opinion.
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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2013, 02:20:11 PM »

America will come under the EP anyway, or the jurisdictional mess will stay. An autocephalous American Church isn't going to happen.
It has already happened.

America will come under the Phanar over the PoM's dead body, and that body is very much alive and kicking.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.
Btw, given what the Phanar did in Sweden, it won't be solving the problem.
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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2013, 02:35:53 PM »

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I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon

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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2013, 02:58:21 PM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !
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« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2013, 03:10:32 PM »

America will come under the EP anyway, or the jurisdictional mess will stay. An autocephalous American Church isn't going to happen.
It has already happened.

America will come under the Phanar over the PoM's dead body, and that body is very much alive and kicking.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.

The PoM barily has any parishes left unless you think that the OCA is a puppet of the MP.
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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2013, 03:10:59 PM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2013, 03:20:07 PM »

America will come under the EP anyway, or the jurisdictional mess will stay. An autocephalous American Church isn't going to happen.
It has already happened.

America will come under the Phanar over the PoM's dead body, and that body is very much alive and kicking.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.

The PoM barily has any parishes left unless you think that the OCA is a puppet of the MP.

ROCOR?
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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2013, 03:24:27 PM »

What's the ROCOR compared with the GOA?
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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2013, 03:48:34 PM »

I'm pretty new to this whole jurisdictional debate thing, but I was reading a few books about the current status of the several Orthodox jurisdictions across the world, and America of course came up, and well, having no other way to put it, it seems like with all due respect that the EP is singlehandedly responsible for all of North America's jurisdictional problems. If we had followed St. Tikhon's original plan, then a unified American Orthodox Church could have existed in the first half of the 20th century, but the EP had to claim ecclessiastical jurisdiction in 1922, which destroyed this plan. And to this very day, the EP has been more stubbornly concerned with keeping EJ, at America's expense. I'm not one to insult the heirarchs, but that's sorta seems like a butt-hole move....I hope someone anathematizes the EP soon.

Why on earth would you hope someone anathematises the EP? Do you ever stop to think things through before you post them? I know you're young and you'll probably grow out of it, but I really would recommend careful consideration of every thought before committing it to words that others can see or hear.

James

Yeah JamesR... Is Outrage!  (LOL)
It's a power grab.  Who gets it?   We do - no we do.

Then you have wonderful EP's like St. Tikhon, who had a wonderful non-selfish plan.... But greed messed it up.  I don't agree that it was a "___-hole" move because that would be an act by immaturity.  I believe it was much more sinister -  a move fueled in complete greed, without consideration for the betterment of Orthodox Christianity in America.  Too much jurisdiction and money to be had.

Okay, I already know... Is Outrage!   Save the one liners of being ugly, you guys know it was greed.

I'm not so sure it was greed. Greed for what? While perhaps there were wealthy parishes, what did (mostly) small scattered and isolated parishes of first generation immigrants have that someone could have wanted? More like pride, IMHO.
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« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2013, 03:54:49 PM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar.  Had the Phanar insisted on its man Abp. Spyridon, and not replaced him with Abp. Demetrios (Many Years!), the process would have accelerated.  The collapse of Greece hasn't exactly strengthened his hand. Chambasy didn't work like it had planned (Many Years! Abp. Demetrios), and Plan B, the "Four Ancient Patriarchs and Cyprus (CoG silent partner)" didn't get off the ground before it hit a rock now in Qatar.  And then there's the Turk.

Last I heard, they were still balking at putting anything in the Phanar's name here, but I might not know the latest on that.
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« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2013, 04:10:17 PM »

You're forgetting a small historical matter: the Bolshevik Revolution.

The administration of the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia essentially fell apart with the elimination of the Church of Russia's financial support in March, 1917. Assuming eventual restoration of the Romanov Dynasty--and the Russian state church, Archbishop Alexandr mortgaged church properties to survive, but soon thereafter, due to law suites from the vile aberration of a church, the "Living Church," encouraged parishes to separate themselves from the Metropolia's direct administrative authority, while maintaining a spiritual connection.  And don't forget the Church of Russia anathematized the Metropolia somewhat later, although most of the American jurisdictions ignored the actions of the Soviet Communist controlled church, maintaining relations with the Metropolia, but it was in no position to administer itself, let alone the church of America. It took the Metropolia 30 years to even get its parishes to agree to operating statutes, given the distance their parishes felt they needed to maintain from their Central Church Administration.  And let's not ignore the proliferation of Russian jurisdictions, the Metropolia, the Patriarchal Church, and ROCOR---none of which shared communion (maybe except ROCOR, on and off); and later the Carpatho-Russian diocese.  Then there was the problem of the Ukrainian jurisdictions and their attitude toward the Russian-American jurisdictions.  When discussing matters of pan-Orthodox concerns among the American ecclesial jurisdictions, like the need for an American seminary in the mid-1930's, and the Russian-American people, who numerically were a significant presence, the discussion would stumble upon the question, "Which Russians?"  Those churches remain distinct administratively even today, while communion has been restored.

Proposing an anathema upon the venerable "First Throne" of the Holy Orthodox Church, the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the see of Orthodoxy's "First Among Equals," is uninformed and wholly irresponsible, and unnecessarily provocative, not to mention utterly unproductive.  No responsible advocate for the preeminence of the Orthodox Church in America's claim to autocephaly would ever desire such an action.



As an advocate for the OCA, I agree with you. I hasten to add the following quote:

“As envisioned in the Tomos, we believe that the autocephaly given to us will be fully realized when the promise of Orthodox unity in North America is fulfilled, and the OCA together with all the Orthodox faithful in North America become one united Autocephalous Church of America, recognized by all other Orthodox Churches.”

A PASTORAL LETTER TO THE CLERGY, MONASTICS AND FAITHFUL OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH IN AMERICA ON AUTOCEPHALY

http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2010/2010-1202-autocephalyaffirmatione.pdf

In case you do not read the reference, it contains a crucial indication of how OCA appreciates her autocephaly; here is what Archbishop Dimitri (OCA) related to Patriarch Pimen (ROC) in 1978:

"The Orthodox Church in America is autocephalous not in order to be self-sufficient and isolated, but in order to be in living communion and close contact with all Orthodox Churches… The Orthodox Church in America received autocephaly not in order to be master of Orthodox unity in America but in order to be a servant of this unity."
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« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2013, 04:14:12 PM »

America will come under the EP anyway, or the jurisdictional mess will stay. An autocephalous American Church isn't going to happen.
It has already happened.

America will come under the Phanar over the PoM's dead body, and that body is very much alive and kicking.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.

The PoM barily has any parishes left unless you think that the OCA is a puppet of the MP.
The Metropolitan Emeritus Jonah of the OCA came from on of those parishes.

Even if it has one, its Abp. Justininan remains Vice-Chairman of ACOBoNCA.

More importantly, Moscow put its prestige on the line for the OCA.  Chambesy came after Moscow threatened (after the Phanar brought one of its Estonians to Ravenna) to bring the OCA to the next Pan-Orthodox meeting, and insisting on him being seated.
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« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2013, 04:15:09 PM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar.  

Uh, "swelling"? Really? Wishful thinking indeed.
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« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2013, 04:28:12 PM »

What's the ROCOR compared with the GOA?

Probably considerably smaller (haven't checked for actual data) but I don't think that the Russian Orthodox Churches in America are anything to sniff at.
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« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2013, 04:39:43 PM »

The OP's wording is so outrageously crude and offensive it warrants no further response from me.

How so? I mentioned in my first sentence that I was new to this topic and was only expressing my feelings from the little bit I do know from reading. I also said with all due respect and mentioned very plainly that I am not trying to disrespect the heirarchs, just expressing an opinion. Besides, the fact still remains that the EP--like it or not--did ruin St. Tikhon's plan for America. And so far, I don't see a good reason to justify that. If there is one, then I'd love to hear it. Plus, the EP wasn't even involved in the spread of Orthodoxy to America--if anyone should have final say on America's situation, it should be Moscow in my opinion, since they brought it over here...
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:41:11 PM by JamesR » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2013, 04:42:51 PM »

The OP's wording is so outrageously crude and offensive it warrants no further response from me.

How so? I mentioned in my first sentence that I was new to this topic and was only expressing my feelings from the little bit I do know from reading.

If you can admit that you're new to the topic, can't you understand that it's a bit goofy to suddenly say, "We should anathematize the EP"? That said, having been your age, I can understand being full of fierce opinions about stuff I knew nothing about and wanting to blurt them out to anyone who would listen. It's an almost uncontrollable impulse.
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« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2013, 04:54:58 PM »

...An autocephalous American Church isn't going to happen.

It already has--the OCA, even if it is not fully recognized. Within the history of Orthodoxy, it seems like granting autocephaly was never a uniform, simple process, but occured through times of hardship, and the jurisdiction in question may have even been in schism before autocephaly was fully recognized. My question is, why don't the other American jurisdictions join the OCA, since it's the only autocephalous Church in America? We could simply just have Bishops govern ethnic groups opposed to territories, at least until American Orthodoxy became more uniform and developed its own culture and tradition. This was sorta St. Tikhon's original plan. And for a Patriarch, we could always maybe use a Holy Synod like Russia had, composed of a Bishop from each ethnic group.
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« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2013, 04:58:44 PM »

It already has--the OCA, even if it is not fully recognized.

Not fully recognised? More like hardly recognised at all. The four ancient Patriarchates don't even recognise it.

My question is, why don't the other American jurisdictions join the OCA, since it's the only autocephalous Church in America?

Because almost nobody recognises OCA autocephaly to begin with.

We could simply just have Bishops govern ethnic groups opposed to territories, at least until American Orthodoxy became more uniform and developed its own culture and tradition. This was sorta St. Tikhon's original plan. And for a Patriarch, we could always maybe use a Holy Synod like Russia had, composed of a Bishop from each ethnic group.

Sounds like a bad plan. The Tradition is that one given diocese should have one bishop.
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« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2013, 05:00:24 PM »

We could simply just have Bishops govern ethnic groups opposed to territories, at least until American Orthodoxy became more uniform and developed its own culture and tradition.

Which Bishop would goven my parish? We have a goodly number of ethnic Russians, a few Greeks, but mostly "American" converts. Would we then have to ask the Russians to leave, so we could be governed by an "American" bishop and they could be governed by a Russian one?
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« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2013, 05:01:52 PM »

We could simply just have Bishops govern ethnic groups opposed to territories, at least until American Orthodoxy became more uniform and developed its own culture and tradition.

Which Bishop would goven my parish? We have a goodly number of ethnic Russians, a few Greeks, but mostly "American" converts. Would we then have to ask the Russians to leave, so we could be governed by an "American" bishop and they could be governed by a Russian one?


Maybe they should stop being so stubborn and give up their ethnic preference for the majority American converts...no one forced them to move here.
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« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2013, 05:06:35 PM »

Not fully recognised? More like hardly recognised at all. The four ancient Patriarchates don't even recognise it.

Moscow does--even though it's not one of the four ancient ones. Does Jerusalem or Antioch recognize the OCA autocephaly? I was pretty sure that at least one of them recognized it, I'm probably wrong though.

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Sounds like a bad plan. The Tradition is that one given diocese should have one bishop.

Maybe so. Either way, if there is ever going to be a uniform autocephalous American Church, it isn't going to come pretty.
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« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2013, 05:16:54 PM »

We could simply just have Bishops govern ethnic groups opposed to territories, at least until American Orthodoxy became more uniform and developed its own culture and tradition.

Which Bishop would goven my parish? We have a goodly number of ethnic Russians, a few Greeks, but mostly "American" converts. Would we then have to ask the Russians to leave, so we could be governed by an "American" bishop and they could be governed by a Russian one?


Maybe they should stop being so stubborn and give up their ethnic preference for the majority American converts...no one forced them to move here.

Which is it then? Your recommendation was that ethnic bishops govern ethnic groups. Which group would our multi-ethnic parish belong to?

Btw, quite a few ancestors of Orthodox people were forced to move here. But my ancestors weren't - they chose to move here, and so, IIRC, did yours.
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« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2013, 05:23:56 PM »

Which is it then? Your recommendation was that ethnic bishops govern ethnic groups. Which group would our multi-ethnic parish belong to?

Then it could go by the majority group, and if the smaller groups don't like it, then they could transfer to a parish with a majority [insert ethnic group here] Church.
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« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2013, 05:44:54 PM »

James--I can see how one may feel disappointed that Saint Tikhon's vision for this continent did not pan out. I can see how one can blame those folks who had parishes here with no local bishops (BTW, as someone else pointed out, the Greeks were certainly not the only ones). I think that the Greeks are an obvious target because (a) they are the largest group and (b) they were quite successful in organizing despite many obstacles. The nationalistic drive of the emigres from the nations of Europe was very strong, well into the 20th Century.

Aside for nationalism/ethnic pride, there were concrete historical developments tthat also affected our situation here. Folks have rightly pointed out the Bolshevik Revolution, but there were many wars as well, starting with the First Balkan War in 1912, that affected the traditionally Orthodox lands and peoples. Thus, to blame the Patriarch of Constantinople or anyone else for the canonical mess that we find ourselves here is really pointless.

What we should do instead is to encourage each other to work for the creation of administratively united and truly autocephalous local churches in the New World. At least in the United States, all canonical jurisdictions get along and concelebrate, at least on Sunday of Orthodoxy. The Assembly of Canonical Bishops includes all of the OCA bishops, and it is led by the Exarch of the Patriarch of Constantinople. This Assembly of Bishops is charged with proposing a way to get to an administratively united and truly autocephalous church, at least in the United States. I think we should give each local church the benefit of the doubt and not preform any opinions on culpability should this aim is not realized.
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« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2013, 05:46:44 PM »

The OP's wording is so outrageously crude and offensive it warrants no further response from me.

How so? I mentioned in my first sentence that I was new to this topic and was only expressing my feelings from the little bit I do know from reading. I also said with all due respect and mentioned very plainly that I am not trying to disrespect the heirarchs, just expressing an opinion. Besides, the fact still remains that the EP--like it or not--did ruin St. Tikhon's plan for America. And so far, I don't see a good reason to justify that. If there is one, then I'd love to hear it. Plus, the EP wasn't even involved in the spread of Orthodoxy to America--if anyone should have final say on America's situation, it should be Moscow in my opinion, since they brought it over here...

Go back a read a little more about the history of Orthodoxy in America; read my Reply No. 7. The Church of Russia never approved St. Tikhon's plan for the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia and never attempted to implemented it.  The Metropolia nominated priests for elevation to the episcopacy for the Serbian and Albanian jurisdictions which were not approved. I don't think St. Tikhon's plan was even supported by his successors.  The Metropolia was overwhelmed with matters concerning the mass conversions of Byzantine Rite Roman Catholics.  In 1917 the Metropolia fell apart into chaos, bankrupt and quite unable to manage its own affairs, let alone serve the Orthodox communities that were not within its jurisdiction.
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« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2013, 06:30:21 PM »

.

Circumstances will wear down the walls of the ghettos, and with it the jurisdictional mess.


QFT !

QFT? More like wishful thinking. The EP will never give up its parishes.
It might not get a choice. Swelling numbers of the OCA are Greeks who have had their fill of the Phanar.  

Uh, "swelling"? Really? Wishful thinking indeed.
At the reception of the Tomos of Autocephaly, a few parishes switched outright.  It was part of the controversy at the time.

I know OCA parishes where the majority of the parish are former GOA, and others with a sizable number of former GOA.  Our small Antiochian parish has several GOA families, and we are not alone in that.

I also know a number of GOA parishes served by OCA clergy, in particularly the Anglophones (i.e. the growing segment).s
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« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2013, 06:30:21 PM »

It already has--the OCA, even if it is not fully recognized.

Not fully recognised? More like hardly recognised at all. The four ancient Patriarchates don't even recognise it.
The Orthodox Church doesn't recognize any such canonical entity as "the four ancient Patriarchs."  If antiquity was dispositive, Constantinople wouldn't be on it.  The formation of it as a patriarchate barely predates the autocephalous Catholicate of Georgia, whose foundation was contemporaneous with New Rome.

The Phanar's invented FAPaC has just hit a rock
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50416.0.html

The OCA is recognized (as autocephalous, it is recognized, thanks now to Abp. Demetrios (Many Years!) by binding agreement, as canonical by all canonical Orthodox) by the plurality of Orthodox Churches, and by the VAST majority of Orthodox.

My question is, why don't the other American jurisdictions join the OCA, since it's the only autocephalous Church in America?

Because almost nobody recognises OCA autocephaly to begin with.
see the numbers above.


We could simply just have Bishops govern ethnic groups opposed to territories, at least until American Orthodoxy became more uniform and developed its own culture and tradition. This was sorta St. Tikhon's original plan. And for a Patriarch, we could always maybe use a Holy Synod like Russia had, composed of a Bishop from each ethnic group.

Sounds like a bad plan. The Tradition is that one given diocese should have one bishop.
Evidently Jerusalem didn't get them memo.

Nor did Met/Abp./EP/Pope Meletius: otherwise he wouldn't have violated Canon 8 of the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus and try to pass himself off as the bishop of North (and, argueably, South) America.
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« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2013, 06:30:21 PM »

Not fully recognised? More like hardly recognised at all. The four ancient Patriarchates don't even recognise it.

Moscow does--even though it's not one of the four ancient ones. Does Jerusalem or Antioch recognize the OCA autocephaly? I was pretty sure that at least one of them recognized it, I'm probably wrong though.
Antioch recognized Moscow's jurisdiction over North America: our archdiocese started under Moscow's auspices.

I'm curious if Met. Tikhon (many years!) will get the letter that Antioch is sending out regarding Jerusalem's violation of Antioch's jurisdiction.

Jerusalem doesn't really recognize (at least not consistently) the Phanar's jurisdiction over North America. It has had jurisdictions here.

Sounds like a bad plan. The Tradition is that one given diocese should have one bishop.

Maybe so. Either way, if there is ever going to be a uniform autocephalous American Church, it isn't going to come pretty.
here's a good plan:
Quote
The Statute of the Orthodox Church in America
Article XII
National Groups

When the good of the Church requires that particular national groups receive an assurance of identity, the Holy Synod may establish dioceses and/or deaneries and set standards for their participation in the life of the Orthodox Church in America by mutual agreement with the group and until such time as the diocesan structure of the Church can be organized on an exclusively territorial basis. If a given group is organized as a diocese, the bishop of this diocese is a member of the Holy Synod and receives an episcopal title defined territorially. The Statute shall constitute the fundamental law for the existence of all such groups within the Orthodox Church in America.
http://oca.org/statute/article-xii
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« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2013, 06:30:21 PM »

James--I can see how one may feel disappointed that Saint Tikhon's vision for this continent did not pan out. I can see how one can blame those folks who had parishes here with no local bishops (BTW, as someone else pointed out, the Greeks were certainly not the only ones). I think that the Greeks are an obvious target because (a) they are the largest group and (b) they were quite successful in organizing despite many obstacles. The nationalistic drive of the emigres from the nations of Europe was very strong, well into the 20th Century.

Aside for nationalism/ethnic pride, there were concrete historical developments tthat also affected our situation here. Folks have rightly pointed out the Bolshevik Revolution, but there were many wars as well, starting with the First Balkan War in 1912, that affected the traditionally Orthodox lands and peoples. Thus, to blame the Patriarch of Constantinople or anyone else for the canonical mess that we find ourselves here is really pointless.

What we should do instead is to encourage each other to work for the creation of administratively united and truly autocephalous local churches in the New World. At least in the United States, all canonical jurisdictions get along and concelebrate, at least on Sunday of Orthodoxy. The Assembly of Canonical Bishops includes all of the OCA bishops, and it is led by the Exarch of the Patriarch of Constantinople. This Assembly of Bishops is charged with proposing a way to get to an administratively united and truly autocephalous church, at least in the United States. I think we should give each local church the benefit of the doubt and not preform any opinions on culpability should this aim is not realized.
just two points:
a) as of today, this "Assembly of Bishops" is charged with that job for all of North America (the push by Abp. Soterios to pull the Canadians out hasn't been approved officially. Nor the request of the Mexicans to be transferred to the Assembly for South America.  At least not yet).
b) autocephaly is not officially on the agenda.  Indeed, it is evident that the Phanar wanted to head that off, but didn't have the...to say that outright.
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« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2013, 08:09:57 PM »


Then you have wonderful EP's like St. Tikhon, who had a wonderful non-selfish plan....


Wasn't St. Tikhon Patriarch of Russia?


Well spotted.  Grin

Yep, and his original plan did not seem so selfish.
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