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Author Topic: Conclave and a New Pope  (Read 13019 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #540 on: March 15, 2013, 09:21:37 PM »

Hello, Stanley.

First off the Catholic Church has always allowed a certain freedom in theological thought. Eastern Catholics also share the Orthodox understanding of these and other theological questions.

Secondly, since Orthodoxy is the only real answer, I must submit my will and intellect to her teachings.

If your problem is that you want the pre-Vatican II Church, you will not find it in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #541 on: March 15, 2013, 09:26:45 PM »

Hello, Stanley.

First off the Catholic Church has always allowed a certain freedom in theological thought. Eastern Catholics also share the Orthodox understanding of these and other theological questions.

Secondly, since Orthodoxy is the only real answer, I must submit my will and intellect to her teachings.

If your problem is that you want the pre-Vatican II I Church, you will not find it in Orthodoxy.

Fixed it for you.

Orthodoxy is definitely pre-Vatican I and pre-Council of Trent. It was founded in 33 A.D.
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« Reply #542 on: March 15, 2013, 09:38:18 PM »

Hello, Stanley.

First off the Catholic Church has always allowed a certain freedom in theological thought. Eastern Catholics also share the Orthodox understanding of these and other theological questions.

Secondly, since Orthodoxy is the only real answer, I must submit my will and intellect to her teachings.

If your problem is that you want the pre-Vatican II Church, you will not find it in Orthodoxy.

I seek not the pre-VII Latin Church, friend. I seek the Truth and Orthodoxy is it.

I'm not even sure how you read that into my post. I don't seek conflict.....I will soon be joining you on the road to Orthodoxy. I perhaps took a different path being an "SSPXer" which accounts for my problems with your generalizations about them. Soon we shall commune from the same chalice, brother.

peace.
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« Reply #543 on: March 15, 2013, 09:41:05 PM »

Hello, Stanley.

First off the Catholic Church has always allowed a certain freedom in theological thought. Eastern Catholics also share the Orthodox understanding of these and other theological questions.

Secondly, since Orthodoxy is the only real answer, I must submit my will and intellect to her teachings.

If your problem is that you want the pre-Vatican II I Church, you will not find it in Orthodoxy.

Fixed it for you.

Orthodoxy is definitely pre-Vatican I and pre-Council of Trent. It was founded in 33 A.D.

That was my point.  When I was Eastern Catholic it was the same problem.  Some traddies will show up trying to search for the Pre-Vatican II Church.  While our priests faced east and chanted (for the most part), we don't kneel, we don't use Latin, and we were under the same Pope.  Same with Orthodoxy.  One really has to want the ancient Church and the ancient faith, the one that has been there from the beginning, to become Orthodox, not merely a pre-Vatican II or pre-Vatican I Roman Catholic Church.  I don't know how many traddies would go pre-Trent, Trent has always been the epitome of traditionalism according to the traditionalists.
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« Reply #544 on: March 15, 2013, 09:43:00 PM »

I seek not the pre-VII Latin Church, friend. I seek the Truth and Orthodoxy is it.

I'm not even sure how you read that into my post unless you are trying to, in bad faith, attribute meaning to my post that simply isn't there.

You said that you believe the RC Church is not the same as the RC Church pre-V2.  That is why I commented that you will not find even that in Orthodoxy.  Refer to my reply to Maria.  There is no bad faith there, I took off from one of your posts.  I apologize if there is a bigger context that I have missed.
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« Reply #545 on: March 15, 2013, 09:45:10 PM »

Hello, Stanley.

First off the Catholic Church has always allowed a certain freedom in theological thought. Eastern Catholics also share the Orthodox understanding of these and other theological questions.

Secondly, since Orthodoxy is the only real answer, I must submit my will and intellect to her teachings.

If your problem is that you want the pre-Vatican II I Church, you will not find it in Orthodoxy.

Fixed it for you.

Orthodoxy is definitely pre-Vatican I and pre-Council of Trent. It was founded in 33 A.D.

That was my point.  When I was Eastern Catholic it was the same problem.  Some traddies will show up trying to search for the Pre-Vatican II Church.  While our priests faced east and chanted (for the most part), we don't kneel, we don't use Latin, and we were under the same Pope.  Same with Orthodoxy.  One really has to want the ancient Church and the ancient faith, the one that has been there from the beginning, to become Orthodox, not merely a pre-Vatican II or pre-Vatican I Roman Catholic Church.  I don't know how many traddies would go pre-Trent, Trent has always been the epitome of traditionalism according to the traditionalists.

This has always bugged me a bit. There seems to be a tendency to assume that there was no Church before Trent or St. Thomas Aquinas. Catholic "traditionalism" only seems to go back to about the 13th century.
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« Reply #546 on: March 15, 2013, 09:46:06 PM »

I seek not the pre-VII Latin Church, friend. I seek the Truth and Orthodoxy is it.

I'm not even sure how you read that into my post unless you are trying to, in bad faith, attribute meaning to my post that simply isn't there.

You said that you believe the RC Church is not the same as the RC Church pre-V2.  That is why I commented that you will not find even that in Orthodoxy.  Refer to my reply to Maria.  There is no bad faith there, I took off from one of your posts.  I apologize if there is a bigger context that I have missed.

You're quick......I have since modified my post.  Wink
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« Reply #547 on: March 15, 2013, 09:49:12 PM »

This has always bugged me a bit. There seems to be a tendency to assume that there was no Church before Trent or St. Thomas Aquinas. Catholic "traditionalism" only seems to go back to about the 13th century.

Same here.  I commented on another thread that there seems to be a dearth of information about the pre-Trent Church.  And I don't know if there is just lack of catechesis or just lack of emphasis, but there seems to be little common knowledge about the early Church.
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« Reply #548 on: March 15, 2013, 09:49:20 PM »

Hello, Stanley.

First off the Catholic Church has always allowed a certain freedom in theological thought. Eastern Catholics also share the Orthodox understanding of these and other theological questions.

Secondly, since Orthodoxy is the only real answer, I must submit my will and intellect to her teachings.

If your problem is that you want the pre-Vatican II I Church, you will not find it in Orthodoxy.

Fixed it for you.

Orthodoxy is definitely pre-Vatican I and pre-Council of Trent. It was founded in 33 A.D.

That was my point.  When I was Eastern Catholic it was the same problem.  Some traddies will show up trying to search for the Pre-Vatican II Church.  While our priests faced east and chanted (for the most part), we don't kneel, we don't use Latin, and we were under the same Pope.  Same with Orthodoxy.  One really has to want the ancient Church and the ancient faith, the one that has been there from the beginning, to become Orthodox, not merely a pre-Vatican II or pre-Vatican I Roman Catholic Church.  I don't know how many traddies would go pre-Trent, Trent has always been the epitome of traditionalism according to the traditionalists.

I was never part of the Traditional Catholics. Since I was terribly distracted whenever I encountered clown masses, dancing girls, or Renew masses present in Cardinal Mahony's jurisdiction, I could walk out of those. However, the readers, who were instructed to use gender-inclusive language and address the Apostles as "she" were everywhere present, since they were instructed at the Archdiocesan headquarters. Thus, I found solace with the Melkites and fell in love with Byzantine Chant.

I took to Orthodoxy like a fish to water. Not surprisingly, my aunt told me that my heritage was Maronite-Melkite.
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« Reply #549 on: March 15, 2013, 09:55:05 PM »

I was never part of the Traditional Catholics. Since I was terribly distracted whenever I encountered clown masses, dancing girls, or Renew masses present in Cardinal Mahony's jurisdiction, I could walk out of those. However, the readers, who were instructed to use gender-inclusive language and address the Apostles as "she" were everywhere present, since they were instructed at the Archdiocesan headquarters. Thus, I found solace with the Melkites and fell in love with Byzantine Chant.

I took to Orthodoxy like a fish to water. Not surprisingly, my aunt told me that my heritage was Maronite-Melkite.

I don't have a problem with the OF, but I do recognize that some priests are better than others.  My journey began when our wonderful parish priest was reassigned.  The new priest was, meh.  If that priest was never reassigned, I'm pretty sure I'd still be Roman Catholic today.  I never would have looked beyond Roman Catholicism.  After that I did explore Traditional Roman Catholicism via the FSSP, but I just didn't feel at ease there.  While the FSSP priests were wonderful priests, the attitude I so abhor was there among the laity.  So I went EC, which was really my stepping stone to Orthodoxy.

Anyway, do you think the new Pope is really going to head towards a reunion?  People have been overanalyzing his initial speech and it suggest that he would like to emphasize on himself as the Bishop of the Diocese of Rome, rather than the Pope of the entire Catholic Church.  Definitely the Orthodox welcome that.
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« Reply #550 on: March 15, 2013, 09:56:42 PM »

What is the OF?

NO is Novus Ordo.
DL is the Divine Liturgy.
TLM = Tridentine Latin Mass
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« Reply #551 on: March 15, 2013, 10:02:46 PM »

I was never part of the Traditional Catholics. Since I was terribly distracted whenever I encountered clown masses, dancing girls, or Renew masses present in Cardinal Mahony's jurisdiction, I could walk out of those. However, the readers, who were instructed to use gender-inclusive language and address the Apostles as "she" were everywhere present, since they were instructed at the Archdiocesan headquarters. Thus, I found solace with the Melkites and fell in love with Byzantine Chant.

I took to Orthodoxy like a fish to water. Not surprisingly, my aunt told me that my heritage was Maronite-Melkite.

I don't have a problem with the OF, but I do recognize that some priests are better than others.  My journey began when our wonderful parish priest was reassigned.  The new priest was, meh.  If that priest was never reassigned, I'm pretty sure I'd still be Roman Catholic today.  I never would have looked beyond Roman Catholicism.  After that I did explore Traditional Roman Catholicism via the FSSP, but I just didn't feel at ease there.  While the FSSP priests were wonderful priests, the attitude I so abhor was there among the laity.  So I went EC, which was really my stepping stone to Orthodoxy.

Anyway, do you think the new Pope is really going to head towards a reunion?  People have been overanalyzing his initial speech and it suggest that he would like to emphasize on himself as the Bishop of the Diocese of Rome, rather than the Pope of the entire Catholic Church.  Definitely the Orthodox welcome that.

Do keep in mind that the attitude of clergy and certain of the laity shouldn't be a barometer of truth, as I'm sure you know. I'm sure there are some cantankerous, nasty Orthodox Christians as well.....present company excluded of course.
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« Reply #552 on: March 15, 2013, 10:03:24 PM »


Anyway, do you think the new Pope is really going to head towards a reunion?  People have been overanalyzing his initial speech and it suggest that he would like to emphasize on himself as the Bishop of the Diocese of Rome, rather than the Pope of the entire Catholic Church.  Definitely the Orthodox welcome that.

Yes, I think Pope Francis will work toward reunion and a one-world religion, but it will be a false reunion because of his heavy involvement with the Charismatic Renewal, the Pentecostal Movement, and annual Chanukah services. I would not be surprised if the Antiochian Patriarch of Antioch approaches the Pope and seeks a reunion too. In fact, Patriarch John might be the first one to swim across the Mediterranean Sea.

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« Reply #553 on: March 15, 2013, 10:04:29 PM »

I was never part of the Traditional Catholics. Since I was terribly distracted whenever I encountered clown masses, dancing girls, or Renew masses present in Cardinal Mahony's jurisdiction, I could walk out of those. However, the readers, who were instructed to use gender-inclusive language and address the Apostles as "she" were everywhere present, since they were instructed at the Archdiocesan headquarters. Thus, I found solace with the Melkites and fell in love with Byzantine Chant.

I took to Orthodoxy like a fish to water. Not surprisingly, my aunt told me that my heritage was Maronite-Melkite.

I don't have a problem with the OF, but I do recognize that some priests are better than others.  My journey began when our wonderful parish priest was reassigned.  The new priest was, meh.  If that priest was never reassigned, I'm pretty sure I'd still be Roman Catholic today.  I never would have looked beyond Roman Catholicism.  After that I did explore Traditional Roman Catholicism via the FSSP, but I just didn't feel at ease there.  While the FSSP priests were wonderful priests, the attitude I so abhor was there among the laity.  So I went EC, which was really my stepping stone to Orthodoxy.

Anyway, do you think the new Pope is really going to head towards a reunion?  People have been overanalyzing his initial speech and it suggest that he would like to emphasize on himself as the Bishop of the Diocese of Rome, rather than the Pope of the entire Catholic Church.  Definitely the Orthodox welcome that.

Do keep in mind that the attitude of clergy and certain of the laity shouldn't be a barometer of truth, as I'm sure you know. I'm sure there are some cantankerous, nasty Orthodox Christians as well.....present company excluded of course.

Yes, I have encountered some of those cantankerous ones. No further comments.
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« Reply #554 on: March 15, 2013, 10:06:17 PM »

What is the OF?

NO is Novus Ordo.
DL is the Divine Liturgy.
TLM = Tridentine Latin Mass

OF (Ordinary Form) = Novus Ordo
EF (Extraordinary Form) = TLM, also called Usus Antiquior
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« Reply #555 on: March 15, 2013, 10:08:18 PM »

What is the OF?

NO is Novus Ordo.
DL is the Divine Liturgy.
TLM = Tridentine Latin Mass

OF (Ordinary Form) = Novus Ordo
EF (Extraordinary Form) = TLM, also called Usus Antiquior

Thanks, I converted to Orthodoxy back in 1996 during the reign of Pope John Paul II.
I gather that the Vatican did not like NO applied to its Ordinary Form.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #556 on: March 15, 2013, 10:17:16 PM »

This thread has gotten so long, I can't find it if it was specified; would someone please tell me what does "SSPX" stand for and what is it?
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« Reply #557 on: March 15, 2013, 10:21:48 PM »

This thread has gotten so long, I can't find it if it was specified; would someone please tell me what does "SSPX" stand for and what is it?

SSPX stands for the Society of Saint Pius X. They are a traditional group of priests founded by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre in response to the modernist reforms of Vatican II. They say the Latin Mass exclusively and continue to resist the liberalizing trends in the Roman Church.
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« Reply #558 on: March 15, 2013, 10:24:22 PM »

Ok, thanks, I am familiar with this archbishop's activities.
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« Reply #559 on: March 15, 2013, 10:35:09 PM »

I was never part of the Traditional Catholics. Since I was terribly distracted whenever I encountered clown masses, dancing girls, or Renew masses present in Cardinal Mahony's jurisdiction, I could walk out of those. However, the readers, who were instructed to use gender-inclusive language and address the Apostles as "she" were everywhere present, since they were instructed at the Archdiocesan headquarters. Thus, I found solace with the Melkites and fell in love with Byzantine Chant.

I took to Orthodoxy like a fish to water. Not surprisingly, my aunt told me that my heritage was Maronite-Melkite.

I don't have a problem with the OF, but I do recognize that some priests are better than others.  My journey began when our wonderful parish priest was reassigned.  The new priest was, meh.  If that priest was never reassigned, I'm pretty sure I'd still be Roman Catholic today.  I never would have looked beyond Roman Catholicism.  After that I did explore Traditional Roman Catholicism via the FSSP, but I just didn't feel at ease there.  While the FSSP priests were wonderful priests, the attitude I so abhor was there among the laity.  So I went EC, which was really my stepping stone to Orthodoxy.


In Orthodoxy, you probably will encounter personality types that can shock you.
In fact, I have met some OCD types and bi-polar types who are far from perfect.
Some priests need more prayers and patience than other priests.
We all are sinners. None of us are perfect.

I encountered heresy in Roman Catholicism and sought Orthodoxy as a remedy.
I was not running away from certain personalities.
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« Reply #560 on: March 15, 2013, 10:46:09 PM »


Anyway, do you think the new Pope is really going to head towards a reunion?  People have been overanalyzing his initial speech and it suggest that he would like to emphasize on himself as the Bishop of the Diocese of Rome, rather than the Pope of the entire Catholic Church.  Definitely the Orthodox welcome that.

Yes, I think Pope Francis will work toward reunion and a one-world religion, but it will be a false reunion because of his heavy involvement with the Charismatic Renewal, the Pentecostal Movement, and annual Chanukah services. I would not be surprised if the Antiochian Patriarch of Antioch approaches the Pope and seeks a reunion too. In fact, Patriarch John might be the first one to swim across the Mediterranean Sea.



You think its that?  I've been very positive on this but a friend of mine brought up an interesting fact.  At this point is speculation, but this speculation is that the EP might cut a deal with Rome to help fortify its territories and then use this against Moscow.

I guess we'll just have to look at what happens and test the spirit of whatever takes place.  Unity is always good, but a union based on false pretenses is not true unity.
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« Reply #561 on: March 15, 2013, 10:48:14 PM »

I was never part of the Traditional Catholics. Since I was terribly distracted whenever I encountered clown masses, dancing girls, or Renew masses present in Cardinal Mahony's jurisdiction, I could walk out of those. However, the readers, who were instructed to use gender-inclusive language and address the Apostles as "she" were everywhere present, since they were instructed at the Archdiocesan headquarters. Thus, I found solace with the Melkites and fell in love with Byzantine Chant.

I took to Orthodoxy like a fish to water. Not surprisingly, my aunt told me that my heritage was Maronite-Melkite.

I don't have a problem with the OF, but I do recognize that some priests are better than others.  My journey began when our wonderful parish priest was reassigned.  The new priest was, meh.  If that priest was never reassigned, I'm pretty sure I'd still be Roman Catholic today.  I never would have looked beyond Roman Catholicism.  After that I did explore Traditional Roman Catholicism via the FSSP, but I just didn't feel at ease there.  While the FSSP priests were wonderful priests, the attitude I so abhor was there among the laity.  So I went EC, which was really my stepping stone to Orthodoxy.

Anyway, do you think the new Pope is really going to head towards a reunion?  People have been overanalyzing his initial speech and it suggest that he would like to emphasize on himself as the Bishop of the Diocese of Rome, rather than the Pope of the entire Catholic Church.  Definitely the Orthodox welcome that.

Do keep in mind that the attitude of clergy and certain of the laity shouldn't be a barometer of truth, as I'm sure you know. I'm sure there are some cantankerous, nasty Orthodox Christians as well.....present company excluded of course.

Of course.  But if a priest is good and holy, then chances are most of the parishioners will be too.  The bad ones would leave.  That was the case with the RC priest I told you about.  Given that he doesn't really have that friendly of a personality, but he is very sound with his beliefs.  Many people left because they can't get their way.  When he left those people came back and it became the happy-clappy, Nazi-saluting type of crowd.
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« Reply #562 on: March 15, 2013, 10:54:36 PM »


Anyway, do you think the new Pope is really going to head towards a reunion?  People have been overanalyzing his initial speech and it suggest that he would like to emphasize on himself as the Bishop of the Diocese of Rome, rather than the Pope of the entire Catholic Church.  Definitely the Orthodox welcome that.

Yes, I think Pope Francis will work toward reunion and a one-world religion, but it will be a false reunion because of his heavy involvement with the Charismatic Renewal, the Pentecostal Movement, and annual Chanukah services. I would not be surprised if the Antiochian Patriarch of Antioch approaches the Pope and seeks a reunion too. In fact, Patriarch John might be the first one to swim across the Mediterranean Sea.



You think its that?  I've been very positive on this but a friend of mine brought up an interesting fact.  At this point is speculation, but this speculation is that the EP might cut a deal with Rome to help fortify its territories and then use this against Moscow.

I guess we'll just have to look at what happens and test the spirit of whatever takes place.  Unity is always good, but a union based on false pretenses is not true unity.

Pope Benedict XVI saw this division between Moscow and the EP when he held meetings at Ravenna. The delegates from Moscow walked out. I think Pope Francis realizes that in order to have unity between the EP, MP, and the Antiochians, he needs to bring the three together. However, I think the Antiochians are closer to unity with the Pope than either Constantinople or Moscow. These next three years should be interesting.
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« Reply #563 on: March 15, 2013, 10:57:43 PM »

Pope Benedict XVI saw this division between Moscow and the EP when he held meetings at Ravenna. The delegates from Moscow walked out. I think Pope Francis realizes that in order to have unity between the EP, MP, and the Antiochians, he needs to bring the three together. However, I think the Antiochians are closer to unity with the Pope than either Constantinople or Moscow. These next three years should be interesting.

But even if the ecclesiology is fixed, there are still a long list of other theological issues that need to be resolved.
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« Reply #564 on: March 15, 2013, 11:05:21 PM »

Pope Benedict XVI saw this division between Moscow and the EP when he held meetings at Ravenna. The delegates from Moscow walked out. I think Pope Francis realizes that in order to have unity between the EP, MP, and the Antiochians, he needs to bring the three together. However, I think the Antiochians are closer to unity with the Pope than either Constantinople or Moscow. These next three years should be interesting.

But even if the ecclesiology is fixed, there are still a long list of other theological issues that need to be resolved.

Exactly. Did you read the enthronement address of Patriarch John of Antioch? I will try to find a link and post it here.

Scroll down to the Enthronement Speech: http://www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/march_2013_word.pdf
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« Reply #565 on: March 15, 2013, 11:50:34 PM »


Anyway, do you think the new Pope is really going to head towards a reunion?  People have been overanalyzing his initial speech and it suggest that he would like to emphasize on himself as the Bishop of the Diocese of Rome, rather than the Pope of the entire Catholic Church.  Definitely the Orthodox welcome that.

Yes, I think Pope Francis will work toward reunion and a one-world religion, but it will be a false reunion because of his heavy involvement with the Charismatic Renewal, the Pentecostal Movement, and annual Chanukah services. I would not be surprised if the Antiochian Patriarch of Antioch approaches the Pope and seeks a reunion too. In fact, Patriarch John might be the first one to swim across the Mediterranean Sea.




Except that "With God, all things are possible," not under any circumstances can I imagine unification between the Roman Catholic Church and the  Eastern Orthodox Church, not-with-standing the "Dialogue of Love" and the ecumenical lingo, i.e. "the two lungs," etc., the Roman Catholic Church is not going to renounce its innovative teaching and doctrine, like its Papal unilateral addition of non-scripturally based language to the 9th Article of the "Symbol of Faith," that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father "and the Son" (Filioque); that a single bishop of the church is infallible when he speaks "Ex Cathedra;" that the Mother of God was conceived immaculately; etc.  Likewise, the Eastern Orthodox Church will never abandon Holy Tradition and compromise on these issues.  To paraphrase Patriarch Bartholomew, who, during his visit to America in 1997, spoke the following words at Georgetown University, "While we share a 1,000 common history, we have also lived apart during another 1,000 years."

A serious and respectful theological dialogue should focus on these substantial matters in dispute, and publish the arguments in support of the church's respective positions on them, side by side, instead of talking about "two lungs."

Trinitarian traditional churches, led by the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, should forge an alliance to speak to the increasingly secular world, and work to refute the heretical message of the scourge of Moslem terror.
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« Reply #566 on: March 15, 2013, 11:56:01 PM »

Exactly. Did you read the enthronement address of Patriarch John of Antioch? I will try to find a link and post it here.

Scroll down to the Enthronement Speech: http://www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/march_2013_word.pdf

I don't see this flagging an immediate attempt to swim to Rome, despite all of the flowery language. Interestingly, His Beatitude, when mentioning the Great and Holy Synod, says that the Antiochian Church will accept the consensus of the Orthodox Churches. I don't see him saying this but then also intending to abandon the consensus and go join Rome.
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« Reply #567 on: March 16, 2013, 12:04:17 AM »


Anyway, do you think the new Pope is really going to head towards a reunion?  People have been overanalyzing his initial speech and it suggest that he would like to emphasize on himself as the Bishop of the Diocese of Rome, rather than the Pope of the entire Catholic Church.  Definitely the Orthodox welcome that.

Yes, I think Pope Francis will work toward reunion and a one-world religion, but it will be a false reunion because of his heavy involvement with the Charismatic Renewal, the Pentecostal Movement, and annual Chanukah services. I would not be surprised if the Antiochian Patriarch of Antioch approaches the Pope and seeks a reunion too. In fact, Patriarch John might be the first one to swim across the Mediterranean Sea.




Except that "With God, all things are possible," not under any circumstances can I imagine unification between the Roman Catholic Church and the  Eastern Orthodox Church, not-with-standing the "Dialogue of Love" and the ecumenical lingo, i.e. "the two lungs," etc., the Roman Catholic Church is not going to renounce its innovative teaching and doctrine, like its Papal unilateral addition of non-scripturally based language to the 9th Article of the "Symbol of Faith," that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father "and the Son" (Filioque); that a single bishop of the church is infallible when he speaks "Ex Cathedra;" that the Mother of God was conceived immaculately; etc.  Likewise, the Eastern Orthodox Church will never abandon Holy Tradition and compromise on these issues.  To paraphrase Patriarch Bartholomew, who, during his visit to America in 1997, spoke the following words at Georgetown University, "While we share a 1,000 common history, we have also lived apart during another 1,000 years."

A serious and respectful theological dialogue should focus on these substantial matters in dispute, and publish the arguments in support of the church's respective positions on them, side by side, instead of talking about "two lungs."

Trinitarian traditional churches, led by the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, should forge an alliance to speak to the increasingly secular world, and work to refute the heretical message of the scourge of Moslem terror.

Look at the nice words His Beatitude John had to say about the Moslems in his Enthronement Speech.
He carefully avoided your phrase, "scourge of Moslem terror." Pope Francis will also avoid that phrase as Pope Benedict got a lot of bad press when he used a similar expression, and ultimately had to apologize to the Moslems, didn't he? Of course, many Moslems did not accept the papal apology. It made for some rough times. This is why I think he may swim toward Rome and encourage the EP and MP to do likewise.
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« Reply #568 on: March 16, 2013, 12:07:16 AM »

Look at the nice words His Beatitude John had to say about the Moslems in his Enthronement Speech.
He carefully avoided your phrase, "scourge of Moslem terror."
Pope Francis will also avoid that phrase as Pope Benedict got a lot of bad press when he used a similar expression, and ultimately had to apologize to the Moslems, didn't he? Of course, many Moslems did not accept the papal apology. It made for some rough times. This is why I think he may swim toward Rome and encourage the EP and MP to do likewise.

Why would HB intentionally antagonize an already violent and tumultuous region?
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« Reply #569 on: March 16, 2013, 12:09:34 AM »

Look at the nice words His Beatitude John had to say about the Moslems in his Enthronement Speech.
He carefully avoided your phrase, "scourge of Moslem terror."
Pope Francis will also avoid that phrase as Pope Benedict got a lot of bad press when he used a similar expression, and ultimately had to apologize to the Moslems, didn't he? Of course, many Moslems did not accept the papal apology. It made for some rough times. This is why I think he may swim toward Rome and encourage the EP and MP to do likewise.

Why would HB intentionally antagonize an already violent and tumultuous region?

Indeed. Why would he? Why would anyone on this earth do so. Here in the city where I live, there is a huge Moslem presence. It would be suicidal to offend them.
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« Reply #570 on: March 16, 2013, 12:15:43 AM »

Indeed. Why would he? Why would anyone on this earth do so. Here in the city where I live, there is a huge Moslem presence. It would be suicidal to offend them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my initial impression from the previous post I replied to was that he should have used strongly anti-Muslim language in his enthronement speech?
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« Reply #571 on: March 16, 2013, 12:19:59 AM »

Look at the nice words His Beatitude John had to say about the Moslems in his Enthronement Speech.
He carefully avoided your phrase, "scourge of Moslem terror."
Pope Francis will also avoid that phrase as Pope Benedict got a lot of bad press when he used a similar expression, and ultimately had to apologize to the Moslems, didn't he? Of course, many Moslems did not accept the papal apology. It made for some rough times. This is why I think he may swim toward Rome and encourage the EP and MP to do likewise.

Why would HB intentionally antagonize an already violent and tumultuous region?

Indeed. Why would he? Why would anyone on this earth do so. Here in the city where I live, there is a huge Moslem presence. It would be suicidal to offend them.

I was probably about as offensive as you could be to a Muslim today, well a Black Muslim at least. And a lot of the dangerous Black People were around when it happened.

I lived.

How exactly did this thread get to the Pope calling for a Crusade or whatever?
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« Reply #572 on: March 16, 2013, 12:27:11 AM »

However, look at these brief excerpts from HB John's Enthronement Speech.
http://www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/march_2013_word.pdf

Paragraph 1 - "The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus whenever HEdawns*, making Him present yet veiled in all religions and cultures."

*I think this word is a typo. Is it corrected in the PDF? I am reading from the magazine.

Paragraph 4 - "God is not pleased to see that the unity He wants for His people is shattered, and that His flock is divided into many factions."

Paragraph 8 - "Modernity is a blessing that calls us to revive the fundamentals of our worship and teachings, and also to differentiate between the one Holy Tradition and the many secondary traditions and practices to which we often cling."

~~~~~

With three sentences, I have reached my limit and so must stop quoting so as not to violate the copyright laws.

Paragraph 1 is a thinly veiled vague statement that approaches heresy.

Paragraph 4 urges unity ... we do not need a one-world religion.

Paragraph 8 really concerns me as HB John is bringing into play the Big T vs the Little t traditions ... a distinction that came about with the Roman Catholic Vatican II discussions. Modernism is rearing its ugly head here.

This Enthronement Speech sounds similar to what Pope Francis most likely will write and deliver at his installation mass. I am not ecstatic.
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« Reply #573 on: March 16, 2013, 12:30:33 AM »

Indeed. Why would he? Why would anyone on this earth do so. Here in the city where I live, there is a huge Moslem presence. It would be suicidal to offend them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my initial impression from the previous post I replied to was that he should have used strongly anti-Muslim language in his enthronement speech?

An internet miscommunication.

I understood what you wrote. I think. HB John lives in Syria (or Lebanon now). It would be suicidal for him to offend Moslems. He must be very careful as not only he but also his people could be wiped out.
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« Reply #574 on: March 16, 2013, 12:33:22 AM »

However, look at HB John's Enthronement Speech
http://www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/march_2013_word.pdf

Paragraph 1 - "The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus whenever HEdawns*, making Him present yet veiled in all religions and cultures."

*I think this word is a typo. Is it corrected in the PDF? I am reading from the magazine.

Paragraph 4 - "God is not pleased to see that the unity He wants for His people is shattered, an that is flock is divided into many factions."

Paragraph 8 - "Modernity is a blessing that calls us to revive the fundamentals of our worship and teachings, and also to differentiate between the one Holy Tradition and the many secondary traditions and practices to which we often cling."

~~~~~

With three sentences, I have reached my limit and so must stop quoting so as not to violate the copyright laws.

Paragraph 1 is a thinly veiled vague statement that approaches heresy.

Paragraph 4 urges unity ... we do not need a one-world religion.

Paragraph 8 really concerns me as HB John is bringing into play the Big T vs the Little t traditions ... a distinction that came about with the Roman Catholic Vatican II discussions. Modernism is rearing its ugly head here.

This Enthronement Speech sounds similar to what Pope Francis most likely will write and deliver at his installation mass. I am not ecstatic.

You overreact.  A lot.
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« Reply #575 on: March 16, 2013, 12:34:44 AM »

Not that I would encourage you to confront them or aggravate them, but it's just as suicidal not offending them because they believe if they murder you, an infidel, they will go straight to their "heaven." No reason to mince words about this ostensible "religion."  Their Prophet, a pedophile, told them on his death bed, if reasonable means do not work in attempting to convert "infidels," "Kill them with the sword."  He came a long way from his early writings when he referred to Jews and Christians as "People of the Book."  You'll recall this "religion" was founded among people who had been anathematized by the 4th Ecumenical Synod (Council).  Typically, Moslem terrorists, such as the gentlemen who flew airplanes into the World Trade Center, were yelling their absurd "Allah Akbar," as they careened into the Twin Towers.  They view their call to terror, as from their god, "allah."  The continuing growth of this "religion" is a scourge on the world.  The leading Imam in my area, who openly courted the Jewish and Christian leadership, was exposed by a secretly recored video while he had been "preaching" terrorism to his former congregation in New Jersey; thankfully, he was deported from American soil.  What do you think he's working on these days?
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« Reply #576 on: March 16, 2013, 12:35:51 AM »

However, look at HB John's Enthronement Speech
http://www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/march_2013_word.pdf

Paragraph 1 - "The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus whenever HEdawns*, making Him present yet veiled in all religions and cultures."

*I think this word is a typo. Is it corrected in the PDF? I am reading from the magazine.

Paragraph 4 - "God is not pleased to see that the unity He wants for His people is shattered, an that is flock is divided into many factions."

Paragraph 8 - "Modernity is a blessing that calls us to revive the fundamentals of our worship and teachings, and also to differentiate between the one Holy Tradition and the many secondary traditions and practices to which we often cling."

~~~~~

With three sentences, I have reached my limit and so must stop quoting so as not to violate the copyright laws.

Paragraph 1 is a thinly veiled vague statement that approaches heresy.

Paragraph 4 urges unity ... we do not need a one-world religion.

Paragraph 8 really concerns me as HB John is bringing into play the Big T vs the Little t traditions ... a distinction that came about with the Roman Catholic Vatican II discussions. Modernism is rearing its ugly head here.

This Enthronement Speech sounds similar to what Pope Francis most likely will write and deliver at his installation mass. I am not ecstatic.

You overreact.  A lot.

Oh really. Take a deep breath.
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« Reply #577 on: March 16, 2013, 12:38:19 AM »

However, look at HB John's Enthronement Speech (link previously posted)

Paragraph 1 - "The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus whenever HEdawns*, making Him present yet veiled in all religions and cultures."

*I think this word is a typo. Is it corrected in the PDF? I am reading from the magazine.

Paragraph 4 - "God is not pleased to see that the unity He wants for His people is shattered, an that is flock is divided into many factions."

Paragraph 8 - "Modernity is a blessing that calls us to revive the fundamentals of our worship and teachings, and also to differentiate between the one Holy Tradition and the many secondary traditions and practices to which we often cling."

~~~~~

With three sentences, I have reached my limit and so must stop quoting so as not to violate the copyright laws.

Paragraph 1 is a thinly veiled vague statement that approaches heresy.

Paragraph 4 urges unity ... we do not need a one-world religion.

Paragraph 8 really concerns me as HB John is bringing into play the Big T vs the Little t traditions ... a distinction that came about with the Roman Catholic Vatican II discussions. Modernism is rearing its ugly head here.

This Enthronement Speech sounds similar to what Pope Francis most likely will write and deliver at his installation mass. I am not ecstatic.

Maria,

Honest question.

What is the alternative to "modernism" (I'm going to go with some vague notion of how most people use it)?

Even this very question presupposes something like modernity at work.

I really cannot understand these blanket rejections of "modernism". It would be like me bemoaning that fourth century Athenians were not Ming Dynasty Chinese.

It makes no sense.

The real question is what are the real problems, in a relatively neutral sense, of modernity and how within modernity can they be addressed, if at all.
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« Reply #578 on: March 16, 2013, 12:39:01 AM »

Not that I would encourage you to confront them or aggravate them, but it's just as suicidal not offending them because they believe if they murder you, an infidel, they will go straight to their "heaven." No reason to mince words about this ostensible "religion."  Their Prophet, a pedophile, told them on his death bed, if reasonable means do not work in attempting to convert "infidels," "Kill them with the sword."  He came a long way from his early writings when he referred to Jews and Christians as "People of the Book."  You'll recall this "religion" was founded among people who had been anathematized by the 4th Ecumenical Synod (Council).  Typically, Moslem terrorists, such as the gentlemen who flew airplanes into the World Trade Center, were yelling their absurd "Allah Akbar," as they careened into the Twin Towers.  They view their call to terror, as from their god, "allah."  The continuing growth of this "religion" is a scourge on the world.  The leading Imam in my area, who openly courted the Jewish and Christian leadership, was exposed by a secretly recored video while he had been "preaching" terrorism to his former congregation in New Jersey; thankfully, he was deported from American soil.  What do you think he's working on these days?

We all need to be prepared to meet Christ at the Pearly Gates sooner or later.

Yes, we live in dangerous times, but we should not deny our faith to save our lives, or preach heresy that leads to damnation in order to appease those who hate Christ.
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« Reply #579 on: March 16, 2013, 12:39:19 AM »

Not that I would encourage you to confront them or aggravate them, but it's just as suicidal not offending them because they believe if they murder you, an infidel, they will go straight to their "heaven." No reason to mince words about this ostensible "religion."  Their Prophet, a pedophile, told them on his death bed, if reasonable means do not work in attempting to convert "infidels," "Kill them with the sword."  He came a long way from his early writings when he referred to Jews and Christians as "People of the Book."  You'll recall this "religion" was founded among people who had been anathematized by the 4th Ecumenical Synod (Council).  Typically, Moslem terrorists, such as the gentlemen who flew airplanes into the World Trade Center, were yelling their absurd "Allah Akbar," as they careened into the Twin Towers.  They view their call to terror, as from their god, "allah."  The continuing growth of this "religion" is a scourge on the world.  The leading Imam in my area, who openly courted the Jewish and Christian leadership, was exposed by a secretly recored video while he had been "preaching" terrorism to his former congregation in New Jersey; thankfully, he was deported from American soil.  What do you think he's working on these days?

I take it you're not a golfer?
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« Reply #580 on: March 16, 2013, 12:42:40 AM »

I don't get it.  (I used to golf.)
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« Reply #581 on: March 16, 2013, 12:43:12 AM »

However, look at HB John's Enthronement Speech (link previously posted)

Paragraph 1 - "The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus whenever HEdawns*, making Him present yet veiled in all religions and cultures."

*I think this word is a typo. Is it corrected in the PDF? I am reading from the magazine.

Paragraph 4 - "God is not pleased to see that the unity He wants for His people is shattered, an that is flock is divided into many factions."

Paragraph 8 - "Modernity is a blessing that calls us to revive the fundamentals of our worship and teachings, and also to differentiate between the one Holy Tradition and the many secondary traditions and practices to which we often cling."

~~~~~

With three sentences, I have reached my limit and so must stop quoting so as not to violate the copyright laws.

Paragraph 1 is a thinly veiled vague statement that approaches heresy.

Paragraph 4 urges unity ... we do not need a one-world religion.

Paragraph 8 really concerns me as HB John is bringing into play the Big T vs the Little t traditions ... a distinction that came about with the Roman Catholic Vatican II discussions. Modernism is rearing its ugly head here.

This Enthronement Speech sounds similar to what Pope Francis most likely will write and deliver at his installation mass. I am not ecstatic.

Maria,

Honest question.

What is the alternative to "modernism" (I'm going to go with some vague notion of how most people use it)?

Even this very question presupposes something like modernity at work.

I really cannot understand these blanket rejections of "modernism". It would be like me bemoaning that fourth century Athenians were not Ming Dynasty Chinese.

It makes no sense.

The real question is what are the real problems, in a relatively neutral sense, of modernity and how within modernity can they be addressed, if at all.

Good question: What is modernity and modernism?

I was thinking that this should be the start of a new thread.

I will start the thread and then link it to this post.

So, here it is: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50529.new.html#new
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 12:49:31 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #582 on: March 16, 2013, 01:08:03 AM »

However, look at HB John's Enthronement Speech
http://www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/march_2013_word.pdf

Paragraph 1 - "The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus whenever HEdawns*, making Him present yet veiled in all religions and cultures."

*I think this word is a typo. Is it corrected in the PDF? I am reading from the magazine.

Paragraph 4 - "God is not pleased to see that the unity He wants for His people is shattered, an that is flock is divided into many factions."

Paragraph 8 - "Modernity is a blessing that calls us to revive the fundamentals of our worship and teachings, and also to differentiate between the one Holy Tradition and the many secondary traditions and practices to which we often cling."

~~~~~

With three sentences, I have reached my limit and so must stop quoting so as not to violate the copyright laws.

Paragraph 1 is a thinly veiled vague statement that approaches heresy.

Paragraph 4 urges unity ... we do not need a one-world religion.

Paragraph 8 really concerns me as HB John is bringing into play the Big T vs the Little t traditions ... a distinction that came about with the Roman Catholic Vatican II discussions. Modernism is rearing its ugly head here.

This Enthronement Speech sounds similar to what Pope Francis most likely will write and deliver at his installation mass. I am not ecstatic.

You overreact.  A lot.

By saying "I'm not ecstatic"?
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« Reply #583 on: March 16, 2013, 03:31:20 AM »

venial sin

This isn't a cause of division.

Quote
Purgatory

While this has been a cause of division since the 15th century, with how little has actually been dogmatically defined by both sides, I don't think this particular point is beyond reconciling.
I am interested to know why an Orthodox Christian thinks that  the Roman belief in venial sin and Purgatory is not a cause of division between the RC and Orthodox Church? In the Roman Church, if you die in the state of grace, but with a venial sin on your soul, you will go to Purgatory for some time. Your time in Purgatory may be reduced somewhat by the prayers of the faithful on earth, but in any case, you are assured of salvation. Additionally, even if you sincerely repented and confessed a serious sin, you would be saved but still, most likely, you might have to spend some time in Purgatory before entering heaven. I didn't think that this RC teaching would be reconcilable with Orthodox teaching, but you seem to say that I was wrong in that assumption?
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« Reply #584 on: March 16, 2013, 04:36:01 AM »

Purgatory and all beliefs related to it, are stumbling blocks to unity.
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