Conclave and a New Pope

[John Larocque]

I think traditionalists overstate how many people are like them in the Roman church. But a trickle of TLM attendes is better than nothing, and you will eventually reach a low threshold. You also have to remember, the old Rite was effectively abolished for an entire generation. Until the advent of indult masses in 1984, it was nearly impossible to attend the old Rite Mass in full communion with the Pope. The damage was done, much as England could never really go back to Sarum when Queen Mary succeeded Elizabeth. Protestantizing bishops - from Cranmer on down - brought in the new order and the old one was out.

[Maria]

At least he had the charity to establish immediately a Traditional Latin Mass for his diocese.

What?

Now I will have to try to locate that source.
I checked CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, etc.
Several news sources talked about Pope Francis' background in Argentina.
When Pope Benedict asked the Bishops to start having the extraordinary form of the Liturgy (The Traditional Latin Mass), then Cardinal Bergoglio was one of the first bishops to comply without hesitation.

I've heard the exact opposite.

The news source said that he established ONE TLM in ONE PARISH for the entire diocese. Now, that is a very charitable act even though those wanting to attend would have to travel two to three hours one way.
 

This is faulty logic.  Fact is, there aren't people in a diocese to support the number of TLMs the traddies are asking for.  For example, the Archbishop of Vancouver is a supporter of the TLM, and yet in such a big area he still only has one parish run by the FSSP, and another parish on the other end of the diocese where the parish priest does one TLM every Sunday (on top of 2 OF Masses).  Fact is, the greater majority of Roman Catholics are happy with the OF.  The Bishop isn't going to establish a TLM two blocks from a Traddie even though they are the only one within an hour's drive away from that parish who is interested in going.

No, it is not faulty logic. It is the worst deceit.

If a bishop is truly a man of God and a faithful shepherd, then he will provide for his sheep.
Having only one mass for the entire diocese, and then only celebrating it ONCE PER MONTH, is not building a community. The community will go elsewhere ... to the Orthodox if necessary.

And that is what my family did. We left, and wrote a note to Cardinal Mahony saying, "Goodbye." And he never sent us a reply.

Back on Topic:

I think I am liking this Pope less each day.
Praise the Lord for the Orthodox Christian Church.

[#1Sinner]

Mass under Pope Francis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3RJK0yULkCY#!

I guess I won't be tempted into going back anytime soon...

Ah, I see you've been hanging out around the SSPX circles.

You are long on name calling and insults and short on knowledge. "SSPXers" simply want the Church to be what it once was before the Modernists deployed their program of destruction 50 years ago. I wonder how many Orthodox would simply sit back and shut-up as their Church was destroyed by enemies. Traditional Roman Catholics are justifiably furious with what has happened to the Church and now we have a pope who celebrates masses that look like they have more in common with a circus.

Really easy to mouth off from where you are sitting, isn't it?

No, SSPXers just want their toy that was taken away from them.  There is nothing in their actions that shows me genuine Christian spirituality.  They're filled with hubris and deceit.  They don't want the traditions back because of any underlying spiritual reason, they want it because they want to boast to those who don't kneel to receive Communion or those who don't pray in Latin that they are better than them.

The "toy" you speak of is the Tradition of the Roman Church.

The rest of your post is simply strawmen and rubbish not worth a response.

[#1Sinner]

A lot of traditionalists are unhappy - for them there is nowhere else to go. Breaking communion with the pope of Rome is anathema - which is why even contemplating sedevacantism, such as Fr. Anthony Cekada, is looked upon as a horror and a scandal. Some of them have embraced parallel magisteriums - groups in quasi-communion with the Vatican (SSPX) or chasing after Marian revelations. If you stay, you're unhappy (but keeping true to your baptismal and confirmation promises). If you leave, you might be unhappy - eternally as well, because salvation is dependent upon communion with the Roman pontiff. So people put up with the temporal misery, and - in the name of the traditions they were taught - give conditional obedience to their church. And some of them are better people than others, and some worse.

( The Remnant newspaper once promoted a book "We Resist You to the Face" - where traditionalists were taking on the role of St. Paul against St. Peter from Acts, correcting him in his errors).

This is a fantastic post and sums up my thoughts as well. These are the reasons that, with a heavy heart, I am seeking to convert to Orthodoxy. I have no axe to grind, it is simply a logical conclusion based on the evidence of what has happened.

1) I no longer accept that what is called the "Roman Catholic Church" today is the same Church prior to VII.

2) Recognize and Resist (SSPX position) simply isn't doable based on Pastor Aeternus which places the pope as the ultimate authority not only in Faith and Morals but also worship, discipline and the Rites of the Church. If the pope is the pope, you must obey.

3) Sedevacantism makes logical sense based on premises 1 and 2 but results in something too unbelievable to be true......that there are only a handful of real Catholic bishops and priests left in the World and that the pope on down are nothing but heretics with no authority.

4) Put your hope in visions, Fatima, 3rd secrets etc. Since when has the Faith been about these things? No thanks.

This leaves Orthodoxy.

[podkarpatska]

Mass under Pope Francis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3RJK0yULkCY#!

I guess I won't be tempted into going back anytime soon...

Ah, I see you've been hanging out around the SSPX circles.

You are long on name calling and insults and short on knowledge. "SSPXers" simply want the Church to be what it once was before the Modernists deployed their program of destruction 50 years ago. I wonder how many Orthodox would simply sit back and shut-up as their Church was destroyed by enemies. Traditional Roman Catholics are justifiably furious with what has happened to the Church and now we have a pope who celebrates masses that look like they have more in common with a circus.

Really easy to mouth off from where you are sitting, isn't it?

I agree. I'm sure Byzantine Christians remember very well the Iconoclast controversy!!. SSPX and other "trads" want their beautiful liturgy and ethos back or maintained. Lets reverse the shoe. Take the iconostasis away, get rid of incense, Byzantine and Russian chant, and make those vestments plain looking. I bet many Byzantine Christians would have a fit. Centuries old traditions replaced by modern ones, with Bishops or Metropolitans  who place the external trappings last on the priority list. Get what I'm saying here. The pre-vatican 2 times are to the SSPX, SSPV, other trads, as important as Hagia Sophia is to Byzantine Christians. Have some compassion!.

Rome tried that and ultimately retreated post Vatican 2. It one of the reasons why my family and thousands of others turned to Orthodoxy several generations ago in the United States.

[Benjamin the Red]

At least he had the charity to establish immediately a Traditional Latin Mass for his diocese.

What?

Now I will have to try to locate that source.
I checked CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, etc.
Several news sources talked about Pope Francis' background in Argentina.
When Pope Benedict asked the Bishops to start having the extraordinary form of the Liturgy (The Traditional Latin Mass), then Cardinal Bergoglio was one of the first bishops to comply without hesitation.

I've heard the exact opposite.

The news source said that he established ONE TLM in ONE PARISH for the entire diocese. Now, that is a very charitable act even though those wanting to attend would have to travel two to three hours one way.
 

This is faulty logic.  Fact is, there aren't people in a diocese to support the number of TLMs the traddies are asking for.  For example, the Archbishop of Vancouver is a supporter of the TLM, and yet in such a big area he still only has one parish run by the FSSP, and another parish on the other end of the diocese where the parish priest does one TLM every Sunday (on top of 2 OF Masses).  Fact is, the greater majority of Roman Catholics are happy with the OF.  The Bishop isn't going to establish a TLM two blocks from a Traddie even though they are the only one within an hour's drive away from that parish who is interested in going.

That's probably true.

Honestly, I think, if I were Roman Catholic, I wouldn't care so much about establishing EF Masses everywhere. I'd rather want to rein in the horrid abuses of the OF. Take the Mass that His Holiness served in the Sistine Chapel yesterday, I thought it was fine. The only thing that bothered me is that it was served Versus Populum, I also wished that more chant had been used, especially during the Eucharistic canon (i.e., by the celebrant). And, I know this is a small thing, but if we're going to have laity read the Old Testament and Epistle readings, could we at least vest them as servers?

And that's it. Honestly, the first two I mention aren't that big of a deal, as I have that bone to pick with plenty of canonical Orthodox parishes, too. I'd be so much happier with the RCC if they would just serve like that all the time and flip that altar back around!

[mike]

With high gas prices and congested freeways, it was very hard to attend regularly especially when the location of the mass rotated between two to four parishes. Sometimes they would have one, and sometimes not.

<chuckle>

And, I know this is a small thing, but if we're going to have laity read the Old Testament and Epistle readings, could we at least vest them as servers?

What's wrong with that?

[ialmisry]

I thought this was an interesting title:

Pray for the Pope through the Dead

The following prayer, penned by a very holy and learned priest of the Rorate Caeli Purgatorial Society, calls on all certain members of the Church Suffering – as well as the Church Triumphant -- to pray and intercede for him that he may lead the true restoration of the Traditional Latin Mass and liturgy.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/03/pray-for-pope-through-dead.html

[Peter J]

I hope he railroads the granting of Patriarchal status to the UGCC.

At the beginning of next month, Pope Francis is going to proclaim a Ukrainian Patriarchate and an SSPX Patriarchate.

[Alpo]

I thought this was an interesting title:

Pray for the Pope through the Dead

The following prayer, penned by a very holy and learned priest of the Rorate Caeli Purgatorial Society, calls on all certain members of the Church Suffering – as well as the Church Triumphant -- to pray and intercede for him that he may lead the true restoration of the Traditional Latin Mass and liturgy.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/03/pray-for-pope-through-dead.html

That might be the most confusing prayer I've ever read or heard.

[ialmisry]

A lot of traditionalists are unhappy - for them there is nowhere else to go. Breaking communion with the pope of Rome is anathema - which is why even contemplating sedevacantism, such as Fr. Anthony Cekada, is looked upon as a horror and a scandal. Some of them have embraced parallel magisteriums - groups in quasi-communion with the Vatican (SSPX) or chasing after Marian revelations. If you stay, you're unhappy (but keeping true to your baptismal and confirmation promises). If you leave, you might be unhappy - eternally as well, because salvation is dependent upon communion with the Roman pontiff. So people put up with the temporal misery, and - in the name of the traditions they were taught - give conditional obedience to their church. And some of them are better people than others, and some worse.

( The Remnant newspaper once promoted a book "We Resist You to the Face" - where traditionalists were taking on the role of St. Paul against St. Peter from Acts, correcting him in his errors).

This is a fantastic post and sums up my thoughts as well. These are the reasons that, with a heavy heart, I am seeking to convert to Orthodoxy. I have no axe to grind, it is simply a logical conclusion based on the evidence of what has happened.

1) I no longer accept that what is called the "Roman Catholic Church" today is the same Church prior to VII.

2) Recognize and Resist (SSPX position) simply isn't doable based on Pastor Aeternus which places the pope as the ultimate authority not only in Faith and Morals but also worship, discipline and the Rites of the Church. If the pope is the pope, you must obey.

3) Sedevacantism makes logical sense based on premises 1 and 2 but results in something too unbelievable to be true......that there are only a handful of real Catholic bishops and priests left in the World and that the pope on down are nothing but heretics with no authority.

And no means of recovering what they believe the necessary authority required by Pastor Aeternus, ever since the extinction of the college of cardinals elevated before 1958.

4) Put your hope in visions, Fatima, 3rd secrets etc. Since when has the Faith been about these things? No thanks.

Right answer.

This leaves Orthodoxy.

Even righter answer.

Btw, have you come across Western Rite Orthodoxy?

[ialmisry]

I hope he railroads the granting of Patriarchal status to the UGCC.

At the beginning of next month, Pope Francis is going to proclaim a Ukrainian Patriarchate and an SSPX Patriarchate.

Did you have a revelation, or did Fatima tell you so?

[ialmisry]

I thought this was an interesting title:

Pray for the Pope through the Dead

The following prayer, penned by a very holy and learned priest of the Rorate Caeli Purgatorial Society, calls on all certain members of the Church Suffering – as well as the Church Triumphant -- to pray and intercede for him that he may lead the true restoration of the Traditional Latin Mass and liturgy.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/03/pray-for-pope-through-dead.html

That might be the most confusing prayer I've ever read or heard.

Well, consider the source.

[mike]

I hope he railroads the granting of Patriarchal status to the UGCC.

At the beginning of next month, Pope Francis is going to proclaim a Ukrainian Patriarchate and an SSPX Patriarchate.

Did you have a revelation, or did Fatima tell you so?

It propably was a joke.

[podkarpatska]

I hope he railroads the granting of Patriarchal status to the UGCC.

At the beginning of next month, Pope Francis is going to proclaim a Ukrainian Patriarchate and an SSPX Patriarchate.

Is this an early April fools' day to provoke alarm among some? 

[Peter J]

I hope he railroads the granting of Patriarchal status to the UGCC.

At the beginning of next month, Pope Francis is going to proclaim a Ukrainian Patriarchate and an SSPX Patriarchate.

Is this an early April fools' day to provoke alarm among some? 

Well yes, if they're gullible enough.

[choy]

I hope he railroads the granting of Patriarchal status to the UGCC.

At the beginning of next month, Pope Francis is going to proclaim a Ukrainian Patriarchate and an SSPX Patriarchate.

I'd love to see an SSPX Patriarchate






so I can anathemize it 

[choy]

No, it is not faulty logic. It is the worst deceit.

Deceit of what?  As I earlier commented, TLM in fact is dividing the community.  Have one Liturgy for all.  Those who go to an FSSP parish even, most of them won't dare walk into an OF Mass.  I got involved in a pro-live movement before and we had a meeting at the basement of a parish which was preceeded by an OF Mass.  One of the senior members of the group was a trad, and the trads had their Mass in the FSSP parish and then went to the meeting.  I mean, what is up with that?  Where is the unity?  People from all over the diocese came to the Mass for the event.  I was already Eastern Catholic then, I went to their Mass.  Who's being deceitful here?

If a bishop is truly a man of God and a faithful shepherd, then he will provide for his sheep.

The trads aren't his only sheep.  And the sad reality is finances for the diocese are tight in most places.  That is why there is a clause in Summorum Pontificum that there must be a stable group before the bishop puts up a TLM.  Doing a TLM for the sake of doing a TLM isn't right if it sucks on the resources of a parish than would affect the other parishioners as well.  There is already a valid Mass happening, people should learn to appreciate that.

Having only one mass for the entire diocese, and then only celebrating it ONCE PER MONTH, is not building a community. The community will go elsewhere ... to the Orthodox if necessary.

And this is bad, why?

And that is what my family did. We left, and wrote a note to Cardinal Mahony saying, "Goodbye." And he never sent us a reply.

I had a face to face with my bishop and priest on separate occassions.

Back on Topic:

I think I am liking this Pope less each day.

In 48 hours?

Praise the Lord for the Orthodox Christian Church.

Amen.

[choy]

According to your good buddies at Rorate, though, Buenos Aires has plenty of trads.

They can claim all they want.  Like I said earlier, they are deceitful.

Some of them are Argentine.

All 5 of them?

[Peter J]

I hope he railroads the granting of Patriarchal status to the UGCC.

At the beginning of next month, Pope Francis is going to proclaim a Ukrainian Patriarchate and an SSPX Patriarchate.

I'd love to see an SSPX Patriarchate



so I can anathemize it  

Well, if it makes you feel better I have no qualms about anathemizing any of these traditionalist Patriarchs.

[Alpo]

I think I'm starting to like the new Pope.

I'm a sort of disappointed that they didn't re-elect Pope Benedict.

I already warned you just a few days ago to use proper titles when referring to clergy, both Roman Catholic and Orthodox. That means NOT calling the retired Pope Benedict "Ratzinger". For your continued failure to use proper clergy titles even after my very recent warning, you are receiving this formal warning to last for the next two weeks. If you think this action wrong, please appeal it to me via private message.

- PeterTheAleut

Oops! Sorry about that. If any Catholics of the board found my inappropriate use of pope Benedict's civilian name somehow offensice I'd like to apologize you all. It wasn't mean that way. In my country everybody seems to be refering to His Holiness by his civilian surname so for me "Ratzinger" sounds more convenient than "pope Benedict". I have a sort of bad habit to use that instead of his proper title and ecclesiastical name.

[Peter J]

A lot of traditionalists are unhappy - for them there is nowhere else to go. Breaking communion with the pope of Rome is anathema - which is why even contemplating sedevacantism, such as Fr. Anthony Cekada, is looked upon as a horror and a scandal. Some of them have embraced parallel magisteriums - groups in quasi-communion with the Vatican (SSPX) or chasing after Marian revelations. If you stay, you're unhappy (but keeping true to your baptismal and confirmation promises). If you leave, you might be unhappy - eternally as well, because salvation is dependent upon communion with the Roman pontiff. So people put up with the temporal misery, and - in the name of the traditions they were taught - give conditional obedience to their church. And some of them are better people than others, and some worse.

( The Remnant newspaper once promoted a book "We Resist You to the Face" - where traditionalists were taking on the role of St. Paul against St. Peter from Acts, correcting him in his errors).

Another good example is Peter W. Miller's A Brief Defense of Traditionalism. It's been a while since I read it in full, but I remember liking it. He seems to understand that ultramontantism, or at least the extreme form thereof, is problematic.

[Peter J]

Mass under Pope Francis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3RJK0yULkCY#!

I guess I won't be tempted into going back anytime soon...

Ah, I see you've been hanging out around the SSPX circles.

You are long on name calling and insults and short on knowledge. "SSPXers" simply want the Church to be what it once was before the Modernists deployed their program of destruction 50 years ago. I wonder how many Orthodox would simply sit back and shut-up as their Church was destroyed by enemies. Traditional Roman Catholics are justifiably furious with what has happened to the Church and now we have a pope who celebrates masses that look like they have more in common with a circus.

Really easy to mouth off from where you are sitting, isn't it?

No, SSPXers just want their toy that was taken away from them.  There is nothing in their actions that shows me genuine Christian spirituality.  They're filled with hubris and deceit.  They don't want the traditions back because of any underlying spiritual reason, they want it because they want to boast to those who don't kneel to receive Communion or those who don't pray in Latin that they are better than them.

I'm no fan of the SSPX, but I think this ^^ is way off-base.

[choy]

I'm no fan of the SSPX, but I think this ^^ is way off-base.

Does the SSPX run soup kitchens for the poor?  Do they have those that help the poor like Mother Teresa's nuns?  Do they actively participate in pro-life rallies?

Essentially, can you give me examples where they feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.?

All I see from them is complain how the current Roman hierarchy doesn't give what they want, then they tell everyone who doesn't go to a Latin Mass that they are going to hell.

[#1Sinner]

I'm no fan of the SSPX, but I think this ^^ is way off-base.

Does the SSPX run soup kitchens for the poor?  Do they have those that help the poor like Mother Teresa's nuns? Do they actively participate in pro-life rallies?

Essentially, can you give me examples where they feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.?

All I see from them is complain how the current Roman hierarchy doesn't give what they want, then they tell everyone who doesn't go to a Latin Mass that they are going to hell.

http://www.sspx.org/chapel_news/march_for_life_2013/march_for_life_2013.htm

Buddy, you have a real axe to grind. Your caricatures of SSPXers is really skewed. You have absolutely nothing to offer here but gossip, strawmen and BS.

Your lack of ability to reasonably point out problems with the SSPX and their position seems to indicate a real personal issue. I'm sorry if you have had some bad experiences with some SSPXers but your ranting borders on hysteria.

[Shiny]

So any Catholics want to give some commentary on his involvement with the Dirty War?

[choy]

I'm no fan of the SSPX, but I think this ^^ is way off-base.

Does the SSPX run soup kitchens for the poor?  Do they have those that help the poor like Mother Teresa's nuns? Do they actively participate in pro-life rallies?

Essentially, can you give me examples where they feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.?

All I see from them is complain how the current Roman hierarchy doesn't give what they want, then they tell everyone who doesn't go to a Latin Mass that they are going to hell.

http://www.sspx.org/chapel_news/march_for_life_2013/march_for_life_2013.htm

Buddy, you have a real axe to grind. Your caricatures of SSPXers is really skewed. You have absolutely nothing to offer here but gossip, strawmen and BS.

Your lack of ability to reasonably point out problems with the SSPX and their position seems to indicate a real personal issue. I'm sorry if you have had some bad experiences with some SSPXers but your ranting borders on hysteria.

Funny because caricatures are drawings based on what you see, and you are right in that regard.  Everything I paint is based on what I see, not something I make up.

[Peter J]

Buddy, you have a real axe to grind.

To be fair, the SSPX have a pretty big ax to grind too.

[choy]

Buddy, you have a real axe to grind.

To be fair, the SSPX have a pretty big ax to grind too.

Of course they don't.  C'mon, they're always right and everyone else is always wrong. 

[Maria]

I'm no fan of the SSPX, but I think this ^^ is way off-base.

Does the SSPX run soup kitchens for the poor?  Do they have those that help the poor like Mother Teresa's nuns? Do they actively participate in pro-life rallies?

Essentially, can you give me examples where they feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.?

All I see from them is complain how the current Roman hierarchy doesn't give what they want, then they tell everyone who doesn't go to a Latin Mass that they are going to hell.

http://www.sspx.org/chapel_news/march_for_life_2013/march_for_life_2013.htm

Buddy, you have a real axe to grind. Your caricatures of SSPXers is really skewed. You have absolutely nothing to offer here but gossip, strawmen and BS.

Your lack of ability to reasonably point out problems with the SSPX and their position seems to indicate a real personal issue. I'm sorry if you have had some bad experiences with some SSPXers but your ranting borders on hysteria.

These rants are very off topic too.

BACK ON TOPIC:

A fascinating event during the final hours of the conclave was the presence of those two seagulls who came inland during a storm and landed on that chimney vent.

Furthermore, there were storms surrounding both the resignation of Pope Benedict and the election of Pope Francis. Shortly after the resignation of Pope Benedict, there were at least two recordings of lightning flashes. During the final hours of the conclave where Pope Francis was elected, there were at least two seagulls who came inland and landed on that chimney vent during that storm.

And those pesky seagulls, who stole the show, gave away the name of the new Pope as St. Francis of Assisi loved birds.

[Alpo]

http://www.sspx.org/chapel_news/march_for_life_2013/march_for_life_2013.htm

I find it kind of humorous that women are carrying a banner of a priestly society.

[choy]

These rants are very off topic too.

BACK ON TOPIC:

A fascinating event during the final hours of the conclave was the presence of those two seagulls who came inland during a storm and landed on that chimney vent.

Furthermore, there were storms surrounding both the resignation of Pope Benedict and the election of Pope Francis. Shortly after the resignation of Pope Benedict, there were at least two recordings of lightning flashes. During the final hours of the conclave where Pope Francis was elected, there were at least two seagulls who came inland and landed on that chimney vent during that storm.

And those pesky seagulls, who stole the show, gave away the name of the new Pope as St. Francis of Assisi loved birds.

I thought he loved all animals.

[Maria]

These rants are very off topic too.

BACK ON TOPIC:

A fascinating event during the final hours of the conclave was the presence of those two seagulls who came inland during a storm and landed on that chimney vent.

Furthermore, there were storms surrounding both the resignation of Pope Benedict and the election of Pope Francis. Shortly after the resignation of Pope Benedict, there were at least two recordings of lightning flashes. During the final hours of the conclave where Pope Francis was elected, there were at least two seagulls who came inland and landed on that chimney vent during that storm.

And those pesky seagulls, who stole the show, gave away the name of the new Pope as St. Francis of Assisi loved birds.

I thought he loved all animals.

True, but his statues and uncanonical icons show him surrounded by birds.
The birds even like to land on his statues.

[choy]

These rants are very off topic too.

BACK ON TOPIC:

A fascinating event during the final hours of the conclave was the presence of those two seagulls who came inland during a storm and landed on that chimney vent.

Furthermore, there were storms surrounding both the resignation of Pope Benedict and the election of Pope Francis. Shortly after the resignation of Pope Benedict, there were at least two recordings of lightning flashes. During the final hours of the conclave where Pope Francis was elected, there were at least two seagulls who came inland and landed on that chimney vent during that storm.

And those pesky seagulls, who stole the show, gave away the name of the new Pope as St. Francis of Assisi loved birds.

I thought he loved all animals.

True, but his statues and uncanonical icons show him surrounded by birds.
The birds even like to land on his statues.

Birds like to land on all statues.

But isn't the animal most associated with him is brother wolf?

[Nephi]

Birds like to land on all statues.

But isn't the animal most associated with him is brother wolf?

I've always associated him with birds and rabbits, as those are the two animals I've always seen him depicted with.

[biro]

The seagulls thing was cute. I saw that on a news site.

[choy]

Birds like to land on all statues.

But isn't the animal most associated with him is brother wolf?

I've always associated him with birds and rabbits, as those are the two animals I've always seen him depicted with.

But there is quite a story about him and the wolf though.

[Maria]

Birds like to land on all statues.

But isn't the animal most associated with him is brother wolf?

I've always associated him with birds and rabbits, as those are the two animals I've always seen him depicted with.

But there is quite a story about him and the wolf though.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start a new thread about the wolf, unless you believe that there may be a connection between that wolf and Pope Francis.

What did you think about the seagulls on the papal chimney vent during the conclave?

[choy]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start a new thread about the wolf, unless you believe that there may be a connection between that wolf and Pope Francis.

What did you think about the seagulls on the papal chimney vent during the conclave?

I live in Vancouver, we have a lot of that.  I don't know about the Vatican and how common that sight is.  My home is further east and farther away from the coast, but I still see a lot of seagulls, especially during garbage days.

[John Larocque]

A senior Anglican prelate had this to offer.

http://www.churchofengland.org/media-centre/news/2013/03/pope-francis-1st.aspx

I was also impressed by the stress on his being 'Bishop of Rome' which emerged in just those few first spontaneous words:  'You know that the duty of the conclave was to give a bishop to Rome. It seems that my brother cardinals went almost to the end of the world to get him. But here we are.'

This is not only a pastoral stress.  It is also a fundamental theological principle.  The universal Primate, whom some Anglicans and many other Christians are beginning to recognise, is still the bishop of a local church, a bishop of the Church, not a single bishop over the Church.

But the task before Pope Francis is immense.  All Christians should pray for him.  I shall be praying for him in Rome at his installation on Tuesday...

I don't really know why the EP is showing up at the enthronement (for the first time in a millenia?), but the new pope's choosing to focus on being a local bishop caught my attention. He seems to come from a place of authentic humility as well. I think he will win a lot of people over - he has the right ways, and I think the right instincts. A protestant pastor friend of his remarked on how he always asked people to pray for him, which he did when he came out and asked people to say a Pater Noster and Ave Maria. (This same pastor thought the Cardinal was a better pastor than an administrator)

[Nephi]

Alejandro Rodriguez de Cabo, Spanish Man, Predicted Pope Francis Before He Was Elected


A 22-year-old man in Madrid apparently predicted who would be the next pope last month -- just a few hours before the pope emeritus announced his resignation.

Alejandro Rodriguez de Cabo's girlfriend, Yolanda De Mena, sent out a tweet on Feb. 11 claiming that earlier that morning her boyfriend had awoken with a strange premonition.

"My boyfriend woke up last night at 4 a.m. saying he had dreamed of a new pope called "Francis I" and Benedict resigned today," the message read.

[stanley123]

A lot of traditionalists are unhappy - for them there is nowhere else to go. Breaking communion with the pope of Rome is anathema - which is why even contemplating sedevacantism, such as Fr. Anthony Cekada, is looked upon as a horror and a scandal. Some of them have embraced parallel magisteriums - groups in quasi-communion with the Vatican (SSPX) or chasing after Marian revelations. If you stay, you're unhappy (but keeping true to your baptismal and confirmation promises). If you leave, you might be unhappy - eternally as well, because salvation is dependent upon communion with the Roman pontiff. So people put up with the temporal misery, and - in the name of the traditions they were taught - give conditional obedience to their church. And some of them are better people than others, and some worse.

( The Remnant newspaper once promoted a book "We Resist You to the Face" - where traditionalists were taking on the role of St. Paul against St. Peter from Acts, correcting him in his errors).

This is a fantastic post and sums up my thoughts as well. These are the reasons that, with a heavy heart, I am seeking to convert to Orthodoxy. I have no axe to grind, it is simply a logical conclusion based on the evidence of what has happened.

1) I no longer accept that what is called the "Roman Catholic Church" today is the same Church prior to VII.

2) Recognize and Resist (SSPX position) simply isn't doable based on Pastor Aeternus which places the pope as the ultimate authority not only in Faith and Morals but also worship, discipline and the Rites of the Church. If the pope is the pope, you must obey.

3) Sedevacantism makes logical sense based on premises 1 and 2 but results in something too unbelievable to be true......that there are only a handful of real Catholic bishops and priests left in the World and that the pope on down are nothing but heretics with no authority.

4) Put your hope in visions, Fatima, 3rd secrets etc. Since when has the Faith been about these things? No thanks.

This leaves Orthodoxy.

Things like this have occurred to me also. But what is your opinion on venial sin and Purgatory, which are teachings of the Roman Church, but not of the Orthodox Church?

[#1Sinner]

A lot of traditionalists are unhappy - for them there is nowhere else to go. Breaking communion with the pope of Rome is anathema - which is why even contemplating sedevacantism, such as Fr. Anthony Cekada, is looked upon as a horror and a scandal. Some of them have embraced parallel magisteriums - groups in quasi-communion with the Vatican (SSPX) or chasing after Marian revelations. If you stay, you're unhappy (but keeping true to your baptismal and confirmation promises). If you leave, you might be unhappy - eternally as well, because salvation is dependent upon communion with the Roman pontiff. So people put up with the temporal misery, and - in the name of the traditions they were taught - give conditional obedience to their church. And some of them are better people than others, and some worse.

( The Remnant newspaper once promoted a book "We Resist You to the Face" - where traditionalists were taking on the role of St. Paul against St. Peter from Acts, correcting him in his errors).

This is a fantastic post and sums up my thoughts as well. These are the reasons that, with a heavy heart, I am seeking to convert to Orthodoxy. I have no axe to grind, it is simply a logical conclusion based on the evidence of what has happened.

1) I no longer accept that what is called the "Roman Catholic Church" today is the same Church prior to VII.

2) Recognize and Resist (SSPX position) simply isn't doable based on Pastor Aeternus which places the pope as the ultimate authority not only in Faith and Morals but also worship, discipline and the Rites of the Church. If the pope is the pope, you must obey.

3) Sedevacantism makes logical sense based on premises 1 and 2 but results in something too unbelievable to be true......that there are only a handful of real Catholic bishops and priests left in the World and that the pope on down are nothing but heretics with no authority.

4) Put your hope in visions, Fatima, 3rd secrets etc. Since when has the Faith been about these things? No thanks.

This leaves Orthodoxy.

Things like this have occurred to me also. But what is your opinion on venial sin and Purgatory, which are teachings of the Roman Church, but not of the Orthodox Church?

Hello, Stanley.

First off the Catholic Church has always allowed a certain freedom in theological thought. Eastern Catholics also share the Orthodox understanding of these and other theological questions.

Secondly, since Orthodoxy is the only real answer, I must submit my will and intellect to her teachings.

[Melodist]

venial sin

This isn't a cause of division.

Purgatory

While this has been a cause of division since the 15th century, with how little has actually been dogmatically defined by both sides, I don't think this particular point is beyond reconciling.

[Peter J]

Buddy, you have a real axe to grind.

To be fair, the SSPX have a pretty big ax to grind too.

Of course they don't.  C'mon, they're always right and everyone else is always wrong. 

That's what I meant to say. My fingers must have slipped or something.  

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