Author Topic: Conclave and a New Pope  (Read 19175 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,783
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #225 on: March 13, 2013, 03:26:21 PM »
Not that its happening, but would a Byzantine/Eastern Catholic Pope help or hurt the overall East/West relations?
Depends on which "sui juris" he came from, ranging from Melchite (the best) to the UGCC (worst).

Care to elaborate?
Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox have the best relations of all the Vatican caused schisms.  Many Antiochians don't look at the Melkites as different, will (unofficially) allow intercommunion (almost officially), etc.  The Melkites insist on many the same conditions we do for reunion, and would work not only for that but for the Orthodox in general, in Antioch and elsewhere, as well.

The UGCC has horrible relations with the canonical Orthodox Church in its jurisdiction, revels in provocative moves not only to the Orthodox but to the Vatican as well, considers the Orthodox in its homeland as interlopers-although the UGCC is the interloppers, as elsewhere, excels as second to none in sanctimony on Orthodox-Vatican relations, etc.  It's focus would be solely on finishing the work of Brest, not even of Florence.

LOL.  They elected a Jesuit.
Quote
The sound principles of Catholicism, however, were maintained and propagated by the Jesuits who, suppressed by the Holy See and exiled from the Catholic nations, found an asylum and the centre of their future revival in Russia. In 1779 Catharine II invited the Jesuits to exercise their ministry in White Russia, and in 1786 they had in Russia six colleges and 178 members. Their number increased so much that Pius VII re-established their order for Russia, where it returned to life under Father Gruber. In 1801 the society had 262 members, and 347 in 1811. The Jesuits retained a lively gratitude for the hospitality that they had received in Russia, and worked with zeal to convert it to Catholicism.
Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13253a.htm

Congratulations Papist on your fellow Latino.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,783
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #226 on: March 13, 2013, 03:26:31 PM »
The Orthodox do recognize this election, right? Even though we arent in communion, don't we still recognize him officially as the Bishop of Rome?
Bishop of Rome for the Vatican.  Like the Archbishop of Canterbury for the Anglicans.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,256
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #227 on: March 13, 2013, 03:27:08 PM »
Probably he is a place holder given his age. I was hoping for Cardinal O'Malley....he has a beard!

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,468
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #228 on: March 13, 2013, 03:27:45 PM »
Being Catholic is so awesome.

Yes, indeed, it is!!!!! ;)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,468
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #229 on: March 13, 2013, 03:28:37 PM »
Probably he is a place holder given his age. I was hoping for Cardinal O'Malley....he has a beard!

You may get your wish...just not now.  ;)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,256
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #230 on: March 13, 2013, 03:33:10 PM »
Not that its happening, but would a Byzantine/Eastern Catholic Pope help or hurt the overall East/West relations?
Depends on which "sui juris" he came from, ranging from Melchite (the best) to the UGCC (worst).

Care to elaborate?
Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox have the best relations of all the Vatican caused schisms.  Many Antiochians don't look at the Melkites as different, will (unofficially) allow intercommunion (almost officially), etc.  The Melkites insist on many the same conditions we do for reunion, and would work not only for that but for the Orthodox in general, in Antioch and elsewhere, as well.

The UGCC has horrible relations with the canonical Orthodox Church in its jurisdiction, revels in provocative moves not only to the Orthodox but to the Vatican as well, considers the Orthodox in its homeland as interlopers-although the UGCC is the interloppers, as elsewhere, excels as second to none in sanctimony on Orthodox-Vatican relations, etc.  It's focus would be solely on finishing the work of Brest, not even of Florence.

LOL.  They elected a Jesuit.
Quote
The sound principles of Catholicism, however, were maintained and propagated by the Jesuits who, suppressed by the Holy See and exiled from the Catholic nations, found an asylum and the centre of their future revival in Russia. In 1779 Catharine II invited the Jesuits to exercise their ministry in White Russia, and in 1786 they had in Russia six colleges and 178 members. Their number increased so much that Pius VII re-established their order for Russia, where it returned to life under Father Gruber. In 1801 the society had 262 members, and 347 in 1811. The Jesuits retained a lively gratitude for the hospitality that they had received in Russia, and worked with zeal to convert it to Catholicism.
Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13253a.htm

Congratulations Papist on your fellow Latino.

Being Pope is likely transformative. We shall see if he values continuing the years of warm relations with the EP and Pope Benedict's slow, but steady building of relationships with the MP over the UGCC. I suspect the Greek Catholics of Muchachevo are concerned for their relative independence from L'vov.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,783
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #231 on: March 13, 2013, 03:36:28 PM »

So, this will be interesting.

Apparently Pope Francis is good friends with  Patriarch Svyatoslav of UGCC.

Now, I see why Russia might have an issue.  ;)
Your piece starts:
Quote
The Union of Brest (1596) was an answer to Christ's legacy that there will be only "One flock and and shepherd" (Jn. 10:16). This was the main reason why the Ukrainian and Belorussian bishops of the Kievan Metropolitanate decided to become united with the Apostolic See of Rome...
and ends
Quote
Today the modern Moscow hierarchs, just as their predecessors in czarist Russia, officially proclaim that "in Soviet Union the Ukrainian Uniate Church does not and cannot exist!" The fear of the Church union in Russian circles is still great even to this day. This only demonstrates that the union with Rome must be and in fact is of great importance to the promotion of the Ukrainian cause. And the recent developments in Western Ukraine eloquently support this proposition*.
* Editor's Note: The Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine regained its freedom after the fall of Comunism and the subsequent independence of Ukraine, in 1990-1991.
The only link between starting with ultramontanist theology and ending with Ukrainian nationalism is the propoganda of the UGCC. Reminds me of a Ukrainian who recounted being told in US school (public, IIRC) by her teacher (UGCC member) "No, there are no Orthodox in Ukraine. The Russians were Orthodox but they are all atheist now (this was pre1989), the Ukrainians are all catholic."  If the bishops who signed Brest did so because of some epiphany they had about the supreme pontif in the Vatican, the opening sentence might have something to it.  Alas, even reading between the lines in the article one sees such was not the case: other concerns impelled their signatures (including, but not limited to, state sponsered violence and force). The meandering, tortured exegeisis employed to make Matthew 16 the basis of the "Ukrainian cause raises questions throughout on accuracy.

As I first noted, the use of the name "Ukrainians/Ukraine/Ukrainian (language)" throughout (as in the opening) dates his conclusions throughout as anachronisms. And anachronism make poor history.

I could swear that story was recounted here somewhere.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online TheMathematician

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,845
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #232 on: March 13, 2013, 03:38:58 PM »
Hey look, an american pope.

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,468
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #233 on: March 13, 2013, 03:41:32 PM »
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Hiwot

  • Christ is Risen!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,959
  • Job 19:25-27
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #234 on: March 13, 2013, 03:43:42 PM »
A very interesting and admirable man. May the Lord grant him many years. Congratulations to all our RC brethren. :)
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,783
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #235 on: March 13, 2013, 03:45:19 PM »
Not that its happening, but would a Byzantine/Eastern Catholic Pope help or hurt the overall East/West relations?
Depends on which "sui juris" he came from, ranging from Melchite (the best) to the UGCC (worst).

Care to elaborate?
Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox have the best relations of all the Vatican caused schisms.  Many Antiochians don't look at the Melkites as different, will (unofficially) allow intercommunion (almost officially), etc.  The Melkites insist on many the same conditions we do for reunion, and would work not only for that but for the Orthodox in general, in Antioch and elsewhere, as well.

The UGCC has horrible relations with the canonical Orthodox Church in its jurisdiction, revels in provocative moves not only to the Orthodox but to the Vatican as well, considers the Orthodox in its homeland as interlopers-although the UGCC is the interloppers, as elsewhere, excels as second to none in sanctimony on Orthodox-Vatican relations, etc.  It's focus would be solely on finishing the work of Brest, not even of Florence.

LOL.  They elected a Jesuit.
Quote
The sound principles of Catholicism, however, were maintained and propagated by the Jesuits who, suppressed by the Holy See and exiled from the Catholic nations, found an asylum and the centre of their future revival in Russia. In 1779 Catharine II invited the Jesuits to exercise their ministry in White Russia, and in 1786 they had in Russia six colleges and 178 members. Their number increased so much that Pius VII re-established their order for Russia, where it returned to life under Father Gruber. In 1801 the society had 262 members, and 347 in 1811. The Jesuits retained a lively gratitude for the hospitality that they had received in Russia, and worked with zeal to convert it to Catholicism.
Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13253a.htm

Congratulations Papist on your fellow Latino.

Being Pope is likely transformative. We shall see if he values continuing the years of warm relations with the EP and Pope Benedict's slow, but steady building of relationships with the MP over the UGCC. I suspect the Greek Catholics of Muchachevo are concerned for their relative independence from L'vov.
for any particular reason now?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,783
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #236 on: March 13, 2013, 03:45:19 PM »
Being Catholic is so awesome.

Yes, indeed, it is!!!!! ;)
Yes, indeed, it is!!!!  :D
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Suryoyutho

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 191
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #237 on: March 13, 2013, 03:45:58 PM »
Do we know if he is traditional? I see some Jesuit-liberal links when reading a bit about them.
The Tur Abdin Timeline - A timeline of Tur Abdin (Syriac for "the Mountain of the Servants [of God]"), the heartland of the Syriac Orthodox Christians, a hilly region located in upper Mesopotamia, between the Tigris and Euphrates.

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,256
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #238 on: March 13, 2013, 03:46:38 PM »
I have been searching for info about the be we Pope and the Orthodox.

This from an interview with His Grace Bishop John of Caracas (ROCOR):

"What kind of relationship do you have with other Christian confessions, especially Catholics?

- I would characterize these relations as neighborly. I met the Catholic Archbishop of Buenos Aires, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio. This is a very humble, kind person. (During the most recent conclave, he was one of the legitimate candidates for the papal throne.) When we began to have problems with the schismatics (the breakaway from ROCOR faction), Cardinal Bergoglio, on his own initiative, wrote a letter in our support to the government."  

http://www.synod.com/synod/engdocuments/enart_bpjohnsadiocese.html

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,215
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #239 on: March 13, 2013, 03:47:43 PM »
Do we know if he is traditional? I see some Jesuit-liberal links when reading a bit about them.

Pundits say yes, he is.  Traditional, conservative, humble, prayerful, with a lot of administrative experience (not just bishop for his own people, but also looking after EC's, dean of seminary, Cardinal Priest before election as bishop, etc.).  Time will tell if this will translate into a "conservative" and/or "traditional" papacy.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 03:48:12 PM by Fr. George »
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,904
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #240 on: March 13, 2013, 03:48:12 PM »

So, this will be interesting.

Apparently Pope Francis is good friends with  Patriarch Svyatoslav of UGCC.

Now, I see why Russia might have an issue.  ;)
Your piece starts:
Quote
The Union of Brest (1596) was an answer to Christ's legacy that there will be only "One flock and and shepherd" (Jn. 10:16). This was the main reason why the Ukrainian and Belorussian bishops of the Kievan Metropolitanate decided to become united with the Apostolic See of Rome...
and ends
Quote
Today the modern Moscow hierarchs, just as their predecessors in czarist Russia, officially proclaim that "in Soviet Union the Ukrainian Uniate Church does not and cannot exist!" The fear of the Church union in Russian circles is still great even to this day. This only demonstrates that the union with Rome must be and in fact is of great importance to the promotion of the Ukrainian cause. And the recent developments in Western Ukraine eloquently support this proposition*.
* Editor's Note: The Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine regained its freedom after the fall of Comunism and the subsequent independence of Ukraine, in 1990-1991.
The only link between starting with ultramontanist theology and ending with Ukrainian nationalism is the propoganda of the UGCC. Reminds me of a Ukrainian who recounted being told in US school (public, IIRC) by her teacher (UGCC member) "No, there are no Orthodox in Ukraine. The Russians were Orthodox but they are all atheist now (this was pre1989), the Ukrainians are all catholic."  If the bishops who signed Brest did so because of some epiphany they had about the supreme pontif in the Vatican, the opening sentence might have something to it.  Alas, even reading between the lines in the article one sees such was not the case: other concerns impelled their signatures (including, but not limited to, state sponsered violence and force). The meandering, tortured exegeisis employed to make Matthew 16 the basis of the "Ukrainian cause raises questions throughout on accuracy.

As I first noted, the use of the name "Ukrainians/Ukraine/Ukrainian (language)" throughout (as in the opening) dates his conclusions throughout as anachronisms. And anachronism make poor history.

I could swear that story was recounted here somewhere.

Sorry...I hadn't read the previous pages.

This may turn out to be rather interesting.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Suryoyutho

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 191
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #241 on: March 13, 2013, 03:48:27 PM »
Do we know if he is traditional? I see some Jesuit-liberal links when reading a bit about them.

Pundits say yes, he is.  Traditional, conservative, humble, prayerful, with a lot of administrative experience (not just bishop for his own people, but also looking after EC's, dean of seminary, Cardinal Priest before election as bishop, etc.).  Time will tell if this will translate into a "conservative" and/or "traditional" papacy.
Thank you, good to read. Congratulations!
The Tur Abdin Timeline - A timeline of Tur Abdin (Syriac for "the Mountain of the Servants [of God]"), the heartland of the Syriac Orthodox Christians, a hilly region located in upper Mesopotamia, between the Tigris and Euphrates.

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,256
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #242 on: March 13, 2013, 03:49:08 PM »
Not that its happening, but would a Byzantine/Eastern Catholic Pope help or hurt the overall East/West relations?
Depends on which "sui juris" he came from, ranging from Melchite (the best) to the UGCC (worst).

Care to elaborate?
Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox have the best relations of all the Vatican caused schisms.  Many Antiochians don't look at the Melkites as different, will (unofficially) allow intercommunion (almost officially), etc.  The Melkites insist on many the same conditions we do for reunion, and would work not only for that but for the Orthodox in general, in Antioch and elsewhere, as well.

The UGCC has horrible relations with the canonical Orthodox Church in its jurisdiction, revels in provocative moves not only to the Orthodox but to the Vatican as well, considers the Orthodox in its homeland as interlopers-although the UGCC is the interloppers, as elsewhere, excels as second to none in sanctimony on Orthodox-Vatican relations, etc.  It's focus would be solely on finishing the work of Brest, not even of Florence.

LOL.  They elected a Jesuit.
Quote
The sound principles of Catholicism, however, were maintained and propagated by the Jesuits who, suppressed by the Holy See and exiled from the Catholic nations, found an asylum and the centre of their future revival in Russia. In 1779 Catharine II invited the Jesuits to exercise their ministry in White Russia, and in 1786 they had in Russia six colleges and 178 members. Their number increased so much that Pius VII re-established their order for Russia, where it returned to life under Father Gruber. In 1801 the society had 262 members, and 347 in 1811. The Jesuits retained a lively gratitude for the hospitality that they had received in Russia, and worked with zeal to convert it to Catholicism.
Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13253a.htm

Congratulations Papist on your fellow Latino.

Being Pope is likely transformative. We shall see if he values continuing the years of warm relations with the EP and Pope Benedict's slow, but steady building of relationships with the MP over the UGCC. I suspect the Greek Catholics of Muchachevo are concerned for their relative independence from L'vov.
for any particular reason now?

They might fear the UGCC faction having his ear although the second in command at the Orientale Congregation is a Slovak/Rusyn eastern rite Jesuit Archbishop.

Offline serb1389

  • Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
  • Global Moderator
  • Merarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,573
  • Michał Kalina's biggest fan
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #243 on: March 13, 2013, 03:51:30 PM »
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/03/13/174201655/a-pope-is-chosen

The world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics have a new spiritual leader.

As afternoon turned to evening in Vatican City on Wednesday, a little after 7 p.m. local time, white smoke rose from a chimney above the Sistine Chapel and bells rang through St. Peter's Square — the traditional signals that the church's cardinals have chosen a new pope.

A little more than an hour later, his identity was announced. It is 76-year-old Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires, Argentina. He comes from a region of the world with 483 million Catholics — about 40 percent of all the church's faithful.

------------------------------

I thought this deserved its own thread
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 03:51:43 PM by serb1389 »
I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,355
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #244 on: March 13, 2013, 03:55:04 PM »
Being Catholic is so awesome.

I am truly happy for you. You have been a loyal Roman Catholic through thick and thin, and I respect that.

That said, I would like wish many years to HH Francis I, who seems to be very simpatico. (BTW, I never truly understood the meaning of simpatico until I realized that it was present in each of the following: nice, decent, sympathetic, likeable, pleasant, agreeable, delightful, amiable and congenial.)

Offline John Larocque

  • Catholic
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 530
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #245 on: March 13, 2013, 04:03:12 PM »
From the Rorate Caeli archives:

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/05/habemus-something.html

Quote
This doesn't anger me at all. On the contrary, such a petty and sick gesture points to the impotence of Cardinal Bergoglio, the runner-up in the last conclave and therefore the very exemplar of failures. He was the liberals' choice. He governs one of the chief sees in the Church. As a result, there is not even one approved Traditional Latin Mass in Buenos Aires. Not even one for millions of souls...

Bergoglio, on the other hand, is old. He is 74½. Tick, tock.

And for the Koran-kissing crowd:
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2006/06/receive-what.html

Online Timon

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,675
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #246 on: March 13, 2013, 04:03:24 PM »
They keep saying that that tradition goes all the way back almost 2000 years, to the time of St. Peter. Is that really true? The smoke and all?  Is their election process similar to ours?
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

BLOG

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,207
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #247 on: March 13, 2013, 04:08:26 PM »
They keep saying that that tradition goes all the way back almost 2000 years, to the time of St. Peter. Is that really true? The smoke and all?  Is their election process similar to ours?

The smoke is a novelty.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline That person

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,160
  • Long live Commie Superman
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #248 on: March 13, 2013, 04:08:52 PM »
Being Catholic is so awesome.
Enjoy this.
"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,140
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #249 on: March 13, 2013, 04:09:40 PM »
He was accused of denouncing priests and monks to Videla's forces.

They keep saying that that tradition goes all the way back almost 2000 years, to the time of St. Peter. Is that really true? The smoke and all?  

AFAIR, most of the procedures are from XVIIth or XVIIIth century

Quote
Is their election process similar to ours?

What do you mean by "ours"?


Online Timon

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,675
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #250 on: March 13, 2013, 04:10:54 PM »


Quote
Is their election process similar to ours?

What do you mean by "ours"?



I mean the way we (Orthodox) elect Bishops.
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

BLOG

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,190
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #251 on: March 13, 2013, 04:11:20 PM »
From what we know of Pope Francisco I:  He lives a simple, monastic-like life, a Jesuit, and who used public transportation in Argentina. Axios!  Multos Annos!  Muchos años!  Don't know about him and the east.
He was ordinary for Eastern Catholics without their own bishop in Argentina.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,140
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #252 on: March 13, 2013, 04:12:33 PM »
I mean the way we (Orthodox) elect Bishops.

Each jurisdiction has different procedures. It also varies depending on the rank.

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,538
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #253 on: March 13, 2013, 04:13:26 PM »
He was accused of denouncing priests and monks to Videla's forces.

They keep saying that that tradition goes all the way back almost 2000 years, to the time of St. Peter. Is that really true? The smoke and all?  

AFAIR, most of the procedures are from XVIIth or XVIIIth century

Quote
Is their election process similar to ours?

What do you mean by "ours"?



Of which no such proof was, to my knowledge, ever offered.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,783
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #254 on: March 13, 2013, 04:14:12 PM »



Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,783
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #255 on: March 13, 2013, 04:14:12 PM »
Not that its happening, but would a Byzantine/Eastern Catholic Pope help or hurt the overall East/West relations?
Depends on which "sui juris" he came from, ranging from Melchite (the best) to the UGCC (worst).

Care to elaborate?
Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox have the best relations of all the Vatican caused schisms.  Many Antiochians don't look at the Melkites as different, will (unofficially) allow intercommunion (almost officially), etc.  The Melkites insist on many the same conditions we do for reunion, and would work not only for that but for the Orthodox in general, in Antioch and elsewhere, as well.

The UGCC has horrible relations with the canonical Orthodox Church in its jurisdiction, revels in provocative moves not only to the Orthodox but to the Vatican as well, considers the Orthodox in its homeland as interlopers-although the UGCC is the interloppers, as elsewhere, excels as second to none in sanctimony on Orthodox-Vatican relations, etc.  It's focus would be solely on finishing the work of Brest, not even of Florence.

LOL.  They elected a Jesuit.
Quote
The sound principles of Catholicism, however, were maintained and propagated by the Jesuits who, suppressed by the Holy See and exiled from the Catholic nations, found an asylum and the centre of their future revival in Russia. In 1779 Catharine II invited the Jesuits to exercise their ministry in White Russia, and in 1786 they had in Russia six colleges and 178 members. Their number increased so much that Pius VII re-established their order for Russia, where it returned to life under Father Gruber. In 1801 the society had 262 members, and 347 in 1811. The Jesuits retained a lively gratitude for the hospitality that they had received in Russia, and worked with zeal to convert it to Catholicism.
Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13253a.htm

Congratulations Papist on your fellow Latino.

Being Pope is likely transformative. We shall see if he values continuing the years of warm relations with the EP and Pope Benedict's slow, but steady building of relationships with the MP over the UGCC. I suspect the Greek Catholics of Muchachevo are concerned for their relative independence from L'vov.
for any particular reason now?

They might fear the UGCC faction having his ear although the second in command at the Orientale Congregation is a Slovak/Rusyn eastern rite Jesuit Archbishop.
You mean the Oriental rite Jesuits have a history? LOL
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online Timon

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,675
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #256 on: March 13, 2013, 04:14:26 PM »
I mean the way we (Orthodox) elect Bishops.

Each jurisdiction has different procedures. It also varies depending on the rank.

Gotcha. Excuse my ignorance. Still new to the Church and wasnt aware.
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

BLOG

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,355
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #257 on: March 13, 2013, 04:22:32 PM »
I want to post a number of views on the new Pope. This article from National Review may be a good start.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/342896/jesuit-named-francis-michael-potemra

Here is the author's conclusion: "The story here is that he is an outsider who is the consensus choice to fix what’s wrong with the church administration, but all in a Franciscan spirit of love and humility, to wipe the face of the church so that its inner beauty can radiate."

Offline ironchapman

  • A bull of truth in the china shop of falsehoods.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 792
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #258 on: March 13, 2013, 04:24:24 PM »
That doesn't sound like Peter the Roman to me.

:P
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell

Offline Eugenio

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 460
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #259 on: March 13, 2013, 04:25:35 PM »
Interesting. The Wikipedia article on him says he was "Bishop of the Ordinariate for the Eastern Rites in Argentina" which means he is at least familiar with Catholicism's "Eastern Rite".
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:25:48 PM by Eugenio »

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,468
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #260 on: March 13, 2013, 04:28:21 PM »
That doesn't sound like Peter the Roman to me.

:P

Maybe because his name isn't Peter and he's not from Rome?
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,638
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #261 on: March 13, 2013, 04:28:38 PM »
What if Hillary Clinton walked out on that balcony....
Then she would be la Papa. (Yes, I speak Spanish  ;))

Offline ironchapman

  • A bull of truth in the china shop of falsehoods.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 792
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #262 on: March 13, 2013, 04:30:07 PM »
That doesn't sound like Peter the Roman to me.

:P

Maybe because his name isn't Peter and he's not from Rome?

He's about as un-Peter* and un-Roman as you can get while still being a Catholic.

*=And by that I mean his names are George and Francis, and he was from an order started by a guy named Ignatius.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,243
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #263 on: March 13, 2013, 04:33:19 PM »
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/03/13/174201655/a-pope-is-chosen

The world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics have a new spiritual leader.

As afternoon turned to evening in Vatican City on Wednesday, a little after 7 p.m. local time, white smoke rose from a chimney above the Sistine Chapel and bells rang through St. Peter's Square — the traditional signals that the church's cardinals have chosen a new pope.

A little more than an hour later, his identity was announced. It is 76-year-old Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires, Argentina. He comes from a region of the world with 483 million Catholics — about 40 percent of all the church's faithful.

------------------------------

I thought this deserved its own thread
WHOOPS!!! :-[
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,468
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #264 on: March 13, 2013, 04:37:17 PM »
That doesn't sound like Peter the Roman to me.

:P

Maybe because his name isn't Peter and he's not from Rome?

He's about as un-Peter* and un-Roman as you can get while still being a Catholic.

*=And by that I mean his names are George and Francis, and he was from an order started by a guy named Ignatius.

Hundreds of millions of Catholics do not have the name Peter, and are from a multitude of places other than Rome.  And yes, he's a Jesuit, many of whom are extremely "liberal" and many of whom are quite "conservative".  What, pray tell, is your point?
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,364
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to internets.
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #265 on: March 13, 2013, 04:38:48 PM »
I wonder if he has ever celebrated TLM after the Summorum Pontificum?

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,468
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #266 on: March 13, 2013, 04:39:13 PM »
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/03/13/174201655/a-pope-is-chosen

The world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics have a new spiritual leader.

As afternoon turned to evening in Vatican City on Wednesday, a little after 7 p.m. local time, white smoke rose from a chimney above the Sistine Chapel and bells rang through St. Peter's Square — the traditional signals that the church's cardinals have chosen a new pope.

A little more than an hour later, his identity was announced. It is 76-year-old Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires, Argentina. He comes from a region of the world with 483 million Catholics — about 40 percent of all the church's faithful.

------------------------------

I thought this deserved its own thread
WHOOPS!!! :-[




 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Adela

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 936
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #267 on: March 13, 2013, 04:39:37 PM »
That doesn't sound like Peter the Roman to me.

:P

Maybe because his name isn't Peter and he's not from Rome?

He's about as un-Peter* and un-Roman as you can get while still being a Catholic.

*=And by that I mean his names are George and Francis, and he was from an order started by a guy named Ignatius.

Hundreds of millions of Catholics do not have the name Peter, and are from a multitude of places other than Rome.  And yes, he's a Jesuit, many of whom are extremely "liberal" and many of whom are quite "conservative".  What, pray tell, is your point?

Maybe that reference to some st Malaky (or Malarky?) prophesy about the last pope to be called Peter the Roman?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:41:33 PM by Adela »

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,468
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #268 on: March 13, 2013, 04:40:50 PM »
That doesn't sound like Peter the Roman to me.

:P

Maybe because his name isn't Peter and he's not from Rome?

He's about as un-Peter* and un-Roman as you can get while still being a Catholic.

*=And by that I mean his names are George and Francis, and he was from an order started by a guy named Ignatius.

Hundreds of millions of Catholics do not have the name Peter, and are from a multitude of places other than Rome.  And yes, he's a Jesuit, many of whom are extremely "liberal" and many of whom are quite "conservative".  What, pray tell, is your point?

Maybe that reference to some St Malaky (or Malarky?) prophesy about the last pope to be called Peter the Roman?

Your guess is as good as mine. 
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,355
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Conclave and a New Pope
« Reply #269 on: March 13, 2013, 04:44:12 PM »
Here is a profile on the new Pope that was written 10 days ago by John Allen of the National Catholic Reporter.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/papabile-day-men-who-could-be-pope-13

Here are some tidbits from the above article to whet your curiosity further:

"(Cardinal) Bergoglio's reputation for personal simplicity also exercised an undeniable appeal – a Prince of the Church who chose to live in a simple apartment rather than the archbishop's palace, who gave up his chauffeured limousine in favor of taking the bus to work, and who cooked his own meals."

"(Cardinal) Bergoglio has supported the social justice ethos of Latin American Catholicism, including a robust defense of the poor.

At the same time, he has generally tended to accent growth in personal holiness over efforts for structural reform.

(Cardinal) Bergoglio is seen an unwaveringly orthodox on matters of sexual morality, staunchly opposing abortion, same-sex marriage, and contraception. In 2010 he asserted that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children, earning a public rebuke from Argentina's President, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner." (My edits IAW Forum policy)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:51:13 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »