No olive oil or no any kind of oil?

[choy]

So I guess I now where we're going for Lent...

http://www.thecrabpotseattle.com/pdf/Crab_Pot_Seattle_Seafeasts.pdf

My toddler son can have the sausage, he's not going to eat the seafood anyway.

 

[mike]

As one Antiochian Priest said, if it's GMO, it is not lenten as you do not know what animal genes have been added by mad scientists to produce those GMO foods.

He is a cretin.

Mushrooms can be grown in cellars. They are also very nutritious and if added to a potato, onion, and carrot soup, this can be a very hardy and nutritious soup.

Mushrooms have almost no nutritious value. They are eaten only for taste.

Boycott processed food. Eat organic non-GMO food the way God created it.

You don't eat strawberries, do you?

[yeshuaisiam]

Growing up in the OCA, we would fast from all meat and dairy (including eggs) during lent.   Almost anything with oil in the ingredients we avoided, but I don't think it was a rule.  II remember my mother shelving things that contained oil on several occasions.   But that was always processed stuff.   Foods that naturally contained oil eaten in whole form (nuts, olives, corn, etc.) we ate.

We were also told by our parents that we couldn't have slumber parties with friends, so that we could keep focus on God. (we'd still see friends, just no long ordeals)   Also, they unplugged TV & Video games (Atari 2600 anybody?) to allow us more time to reflect on God.   

[Orthodox11]

In Westernspeak, they use abstinence for avoiding foods and fasting for not eating. This is accurate and should be employed in Orthodoxy universally. For goodness sake, we have hypertechnical theological terms, we might as well have more accurate terms for our praxis.

+1

[Timon]

Finally going to muster up the courage to ask my Priest about these fasting guidelines today.  Ive always been too scared as I have always taken a slightly less strict stance on the items in question, such as alcohol and certain oils.  At times, id have a beer during fasts since in some traditions its allowed, and if I wasnt supposed to have it I didnt want to know!  Im actually curious to see what my Priest(s) have to say now.  Although I am still a catechumen, I have declined 2 offers to be Chrismated as I am kinda/sorta waiting on my wife to come around. Since my Priest feels I am ready to be Orthodox, I should probably try to live as Orthodox as possible, even if it means not having that brewsky with my lenten salad...

[Punch]

I think we need to be less hung up on the details, lest we turn fasting into a form of legalism, and not a tool of strengthening our spirituality.

Exactly, there are some very scrupulous priests who do not even want those parishioners with serious allergies looking beyond the five major ingredients in processed foods. What are they doing telling their parishioners to eat PROCESSED foods for Lent in the first place?

Most processed foods contain GMO corn and soy. As one Antiochian Priest said, if it's GMO, it is not lenten as you do not know what animal genes have been added by mad scientists to produce those GMO foods.

Boycott processed food. Eat organic non-GMO food the way God created it.

While I certainly agree with you on reasons of health, it can also be difficult for some to always afford such food, and others to have time to prepare a filling meal. Many working families don't always have time to fix a nice breakfast or lunch. Processed foods aren't the best for you, but it's sometimes hard to avoid.

That said, not all processed foods are things like big pastries or fatty snacks, and so I don't think they can all be considered inappropriate for Lent. They're aren't the ideal, but sometimes the ideal is beyond reach.

Monks dig up potatoes and carrots and add some greens like broccoli to make a daily Lenten soup.
Things grown in the garden can be delicious. Mushrooms can be grown in cellars. They are also very nutritious and if added to a potato, onion, and carrot soup, this can be a very hardy and nutritious soup.
A couple of sliced olives will give that soup a sensational flavor. No need to add olive oil.

Monks have that luxury.  Those of us working in powerplants 10 - 13 hours per day, six or seven days a week do not.  We either eat what we carry or eat what they serve us (we have a cafeteria there).  Funny thing is, two priests have told me to do the best that I can, but make sure that I am alert and concentrating on my job, even if it means that I do not fast.  The third insists upon keeping the fast and says that hunger is good for you and makes you dwell on the spiritual.  Does anyone want to guess which two priests actually worked as something other than a priest during sometime of their life?

In any case, Lent used to be my favorite time of the Church year.  I have come to hate it with a passion since becoming Orthodox.  How wonderful it would be to see a thread discussing increased alms during lent and which charities could use the money most.  Or, how best to go about visiting people in the hospitals or nursing homes.  Or how we can best use the money that we are supposed to save with these "fasts" to best help those in our community that need the help.  But no, we are too busy trying to out Jew the Jews in our meaningless works that benefit nobody but ourselves (if even that, since all the discussion and "look at me, I'm fasting" posts probably eliminate anything the fasting would have done).  After all, let us remember the story of Jesus at the Last Judgment:

When I was hungry, you fed me.
When I was thirsty, you gave me drink.
When I was naked, you clothed me.
When I was sick, you comforted me.
When I was in prison, you visited me.
But I saw you eat a hamburger during the fast, SO YOU CAN GO TO HELL!

said Jesus never.

[Orthodox11]

You're right about the true purpose of fasting, which is why we read that Gospel passage on the day before Lent (or Cheesefare week at any rate) begins. I think, or at least hope, that the reason most threads about Lent are about food is not because people think that's all there is to Lent, but because these are more or less objective questions. I see 'no oil' written on my calendar and don't know if that means olive oil or any oil, so I write a quick note on oc.net rather than bother my priest about it - it might not be something I intend to follow, I might just be curious as to what is meant. The rules/guidelines of the Church are discussed, who actually eats what and when is not. Things like almsgiving, charity work, abstaining from certain activities are subjective and not necessarily things people wish to discuss on an internet forum, or even among friends. Much in the same way, I might ask if it's correct to read/sing this or that during a service, but I wouldn't ask for advice about my personal prayer rule, or my spiritual life in general.

[podkarpatska]

I think we need to be less hung up on the details, lest we turn fasting into a form of legalism, and not a tool of strengthening our spirituality.

Exactly, there are some very scrupulous priests who do not even want those parishioners with serious allergies looking beyond the five major ingredients in processed foods. What are they doing telling their parishioners to eat PROCESSED foods for Lent in the first place?

Most processed foods contain GMO corn and soy. As one Antiochian Priest said, if it's GMO, it is not lenten as you do not know what animal genes have been added by mad scientists to produce those GMO foods.

Boycott processed food. Eat organic non-GMO food the way God created it.

While I certainly agree with you on reasons of health, it can also be difficult for some to always afford such food, and others to have time to prepare a filling meal. Many working families don't always have time to fix a nice breakfast or lunch. Processed foods aren't the best for you, but it's sometimes hard to avoid.

That said, not all processed foods are things like big pastries or fatty snacks, and so I don't think they can all be considered inappropriate for Lent. They're aren't the ideal, but sometimes the ideal is beyond reach.

Monks dig up potatoes and carrots and add some greens like broccoli to make a daily Lenten soup.
Things grown in the garden can be delicious. Mushrooms can be grown in cellars. They are also very nutritious and if added to a potato, onion, and carrot soup, this can be a very hardy and nutritious soup.
A couple of sliced olives will give that soup a sensational flavor. No need to add olive oil.

Monks have that luxury.  Those of us working in powerplants 10 - 13 hours per day, six or seven days a week do not.  We either eat what we carry or eat what they serve us (we have a cafeteria there).  Funny thing is, two priests have told me to do the best that I can, but make sure that I am alert and concentrating on my job, even if it means that I do not fast.  The third insists upon keeping the fast and says that hunger is good for you and makes you dwell on the spiritual.  Does anyone want to guess which two priests actually worked as something other than a priest during sometime of their life?

In any case, Lent used to be my favorite time of the Church year.  I have come to hate it with a passion since becoming Orthodox.  How wonderful it would be to see a thread discussing increased alms during lent and which charities could use the money most.  Or, how best to go about visiting people in the hospitals or nursing homes.  Or how we can best use the money that we are supposed to save with these "fasts" to best help those in our community that need the help.  But no, we are too busy trying to out Jew the Jews in our meaningless works that benefit nobody but ourselves (if even that, since all the discussion and "look at me, I'm fasting" posts probably eliminate anything the fasting would have done).  After all, let us remember the story of Jesus at the Last Judgment:

When I was hungry, you fed me.
When I was thirsty, you gave me drink.
When I was naked, you clothed me.
When I was sick, you comforted me.
When I was in prison, you visited me.
But I saw you eat a hamburger during the fast, SO YOU CAN GO TO HELL!

said Jesus never.

Your clarity here expresses what I was taught with a precision and depth my father, a priest - full time for 65 years - would have endorsed with his characteristic smile.

Look to your plate, not your neighbor's was his rule. Of course the abstinence rules of the Church are important but excessive legalism is one reason we left the Catholic church. (Papal version that is)

Remember this when the wonderous Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom is proclaimed.

(Personal note- we don't always disagree! )

[podkarpatska]

You're right about the true purpose of fasting, which is why we read that Gospel passage on the day before Lent (or Cheesefare week at any rate) begins. I think, or at least hope, that the reason most threads about Lent are about food is not because people think that's all there is to Lent, but because these are more or less objective questions. I see 'no oil' written on my calendar and don't know if that means olive oil or any oil, so I write a quick note on oc.net rather than bother my priest about it - it might not be something I intend to follow, I might just be curious as to what is meant. The rules/guidelines of the Church are discussed, who actually eats what and when is not. Things like almsgiving, charity work, abstaining from certain activities are subjective and not necessarily things people wish to discuss on an internet forum, or even among friends. Much in the same way, I might ask if it's correct to read/sing this or that during a service, but I wouldn't ask for advice about my personal prayer rule, or my spiritual life in general.

True, but many equate a rigid legalism with a "pure" spiritual life.

[Orthodox11]

True, but many equate a rigid legalism with a "pure" spiritual life.

I'm sure if Punch fell asleep at the power plant because of intense fasting and blew up half a city as a result, some would consider him and those who died with him martyrs who gave their lives for the sake of the canons. Legalism is a problem, of course, but I don't think we should take discussions on message boards  - which many frequent precisely because they want to ask about technical or trivial things that aren't that important - as a reflection of people's actual priorities.

[Deep Roots]

True, but many equate a rigid legalism with a "pure" spiritual life.

I'm sure if Punch fell asleep at the power plant because of intense fasting and blew up half a city as a result, some would consider him and those who died with him martyrs who gave their lives for the sake of the canons.

hahaha awesome

[podkarpatska]

True, but many equate a rigid legalism with a "pure" spiritual life.

I'm sure if Punch fell asleep at the power plant because of intense fasting and blew up half a city as a result, some would consider him and those who died with him martyrs who gave their lives for the sake of the canons. Legalism is a problem, of course, but I don't think we should take discussions on message boards  - which many frequent precisely because they want to ask about technical or trivial things that aren't that important - as a reflection of people's actual priorities.

Again true, but the posters are not the only ones reading the posts and it serves an equally valid purpose to remind them that legalism is not at the core of our Lent.

[Marc1152]

I think we need to be less hung up on the details, lest we turn fasting into a form of legalism, and not a tool of strengthening our spirituality.

Exactly, there are some very scrupulous priests who do not even want those parishioners with serious allergies looking beyond the five major ingredients in processed foods. What are they doing telling their parishioners to eat PROCESSED foods for Lent in the first place?

Most processed foods contain GMO corn and soy. As one Antiochian Priest said, if it's GMO, it is not lenten as you do not know what animal genes have been added by mad scientists to produce those GMO foods.

Boycott processed food. Eat organic non-GMO food the way God created it.

While I certainly agree with you on reasons of health, it can also be difficult for some to always afford such food, and others to have time to prepare a filling meal. Many working families don't always have time to fix a nice breakfast or lunch. Processed foods aren't the best for you, but it's sometimes hard to avoid.

That said, not all processed foods are things like big pastries or fatty snacks, and so I don't think they can all be considered inappropriate for Lent. They're aren't the ideal, but sometimes the ideal is beyond reach.

Monks dig up potatoes and carrots and add some greens like broccoli to make a daily Lenten soup.
Things grown in the garden can be delicious. Mushrooms can be grown in cellars. They are also very nutritious and if added to a potato, onion, and carrot soup, this can be a very hardy and nutritious soup.
A couple of sliced olives will give that soup a sensational flavor. No need to add olive oil.

Monks have that luxury.  Those of us working in powerplants 10 - 13 hours per day, six or seven days a week do not.  We either eat what we carry or eat what they serve us (we have a cafeteria there).  Funny thing is, two priests have told me to do the best that I can, but make sure that I am alert and concentrating on my job, even if it means that I do not fast.  The third insists upon keeping the fast and says that hunger is good for you and makes you dwell on the spiritual.  Does anyone want to guess which two priests actually worked as something other than a priest during sometime of their life?

In any case, Lent used to be my favorite time of the Church year.  I have come to hate it with a passion since becoming Orthodox.  How wonderful it would be to see a thread discussing increased alms during lent and which charities could use the money most.  Or, how best to go about visiting people in the hospitals or nursing homes.  Or how we can best use the money that we are supposed to save with these "fasts" to best help those in our community that need the help.  But no, we are too busy trying to out Jew the Jews in our meaningless works that benefit nobody but ourselves (if even that, since all the discussion and "look at me, I'm fasting" posts probably eliminate anything the fasting would have done).  After all, let us remember the story of Jesus at the Last Judgment:

When I was hungry, you fed me.
When I was thirsty, you gave me drink.
When I was naked, you clothed me.
When I was sick, you comforted me.
When I was in prison, you visited me.
But I saw you eat a hamburger during the fast, SO YOU CAN GO TO HELL!

said Jesus never.

 I don't think giving more alms and fasting should be juxtaposed to each other. If you lighten up your diet and go to the services you will also find giving alms to be of benefit in cultivating the virtues.

A good idea is to get some amount of cash and then drive around looking for the beggars who stand at intersections. Pop them a 10 or 20 if you can or go around giving what you can afford.. They will probably bless you for it.

[podkarpatska]

No one in the history of the Church has addressed fasting with the clarity expressed by St. John Chrysostom.

ON FASTING:" Fasting is the change of every part of our life, because the sacrifice of the fast is not the abstinence but the distancing from sins. Therefore, whoever limits the fast to the deprivation of food, he is the one who, in reality, abhors and ridicules the fast. Are you fasting? Show me your fast with your works. Which works? If you see someone who is poor, show him mercy. If you see an enemy, reconcile with him. If you see a friend who is becoming successful, do not be jealous of him! If you see a beautiful woman on the street, pass her by.

In other words, not only should the mouth fast, but the eyes and the legs and the arms and all the other parts of the body should fast as well. Let the hands fast, remaining clean from stealing and greediness. Let the legs fast, avoiding roads which lead to sinful sights. Let the eyes fast by not fixing themselves on beautiful faces and by not observing the beauty of others. You are not eating meat, are you? You should not eat debauchery with your eyes as well. Let your hearing also fast. The fast of hearing is not to accept bad talk against others and sly defamations."   Fasting is the change of every part of our life, because the sacrifice of the fast is not the abstinence but the distancing from sins. Therefore, whoever limits the fast to the deprivation of food, he is the one who, in reality, abhors and ridicules the fast. Are you fasting? Show me your fast with your works. Which works? If you see someone who is poor, show him mercy. If you see an enemy, reconcile with him. If you see a friend who is becoming successful, do not be jealous of him! If you see a beautiful woman on the street, pass her by. "

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/ChrysostomFasting.php

[Maria]

No one in the history of the Church has addressed fasting with the clarity expressed by St. John Chrysostom.

ON FASTING:" Fasting is the change of every part of our life, because the sacrifice of the fast is not the abstinence but the distancing from sins. Therefore, whoever limits the fast to the deprivation of food, he is the one who, in reality, abhors and ridicules the fast. Are you fasting? Show me your fast with your works. Which works? If you see someone who is poor, show him mercy. If you see an enemy, reconcile with him. If you see a friend who is becoming successful, do not be jealous of him! If you see a beautiful woman on the street, pass her by.

In other words, not only should the mouth fast, but the eyes and the legs and the arms and all the other parts of the body should fast as well. Let the hands fast, remaining clean from stealing and greediness. Let the legs fast, avoiding roads which lead to sinful sights. Let the eyes fast by not fixing themselves on beautiful faces and by not observing the beauty of others. You are not eating meat, are you? You should not eat debauchery with your eyes as well. Let your hearing also fast. The fast of hearing is not to accept bad talk against others and sly defamations."   Fasting is the change of every part of our life, because the sacrifice of the fast is not the abstinence but the distancing from sins. Therefore, whoever limits the fast to the deprivation of food, he is the one who, in reality, abhors and ridicules the fast. Are you fasting? Show me your fast with your works. Which works? If you see someone who is poor, show him mercy. If you see an enemy, reconcile with him. If you see a friend who is becoming successful, do not be jealous of him! If you see a beautiful woman on the street, pass her by. "

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/ChrysostomFasting.php

No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

[LBK]

No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal. 

[Maria]

No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal. 

And then there is that vision of the Three Hierarchs.

Do you have an icon of the Three Hierarchs?

[Shanghaiski]

No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal. 

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

[LBK]

Do you have an icon of the Three Hierarchs?

Yes. I have about a dozen of them on file.

[LBK]

No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal. 

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

Indeed. It would have been a nightmare for anyone to take him on in a theological or doctrinal argument. 

[Maria]

No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal. 

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

Indeed. It would have been a nightmare for anyone to take him on in a theological or doctrinal argument. 

Yet, St. John of Damascus lived centuries after St. John of Chrysostom, and many of St. John of Chrysostom's sermons and writings are apparently lost to history.

[Αριστοκλής]

No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal. 

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

Indeed. It would have been a nightmare for anyone to take him on in a theological or doctrinal argument. 

Yet, St. John of Damascus lived centuries after St. John of Chrysostom, and many of St. John of Chrysostom's sermons and writings are apparently lost to history.

OK, fine. But why must everything become an issue, an argument, on OC.net of late?

What has this to do with the oil question?

[Punch]

No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal. 

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

Indeed. It would have been a nightmare for anyone to take him on in a theological or doctrinal argument. 

Yet, St. John of Damascus lived centuries after St. John of Chrysostom, and many of St. John of Chrysostom's sermons and writings are apparently lost to history.

OK, fine. But why must everything become an issue, an argument, on OC.net of late?

What has this to do with the oil question?

If the food is the least important aspect of a true fast, then what oil you avoid is almost a meaningless question.

[Αριστοκλής]

No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal. 

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

Indeed. It would have been a nightmare for anyone to take him on in a theological or doctrinal argument. 

Yet, St. John of Damascus lived centuries after St. John of Chrysostom, and many of St. John of Chrysostom's sermons and writings are apparently lost to history.

OK, fine. But why must everything become an issue, an argument, on OC.net of late?

What has this to do with the oil question?

If the food is the least important aspect of a true fast, then what oil you avoid is almost a meaningless question.

Fine. Then explain how the dueling "fathers" debate works here, too.

[podkarpatska]

Were they arguing or just carrying on a bit of teasing one or that would posts too far?

[LBK]

Were they arguing or just carrying on a bit of teasing one or that would posts too far?

The smileys in my posts in that series make it clear I wasn't looking for an argument.  Why Maria chose to post the way she did in #110 is beyond me. 

[Maria]

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

[TheMathematician]

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

Well written post, but I must query, how would eating a huge plate of pasta make someone fall into lust? Glottony, that is easy to see, but lust, not so much.

[Maria]

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

Well written post, but I must query, how would eating a huge plate of pasta make someone fall into lust? Glottony, that is easy to see, but lust, not so much.

The Holy Fathers talk about the necessity to avoid overeating because there is a connection between gluttony and lust. Eating and drinking to the point of being stuffed violates the virtue of Temperance. Too much food and wine can stimulate lustful passions. We are to be ever sober and watchful, for the devil like a roaring lion seeks those whom he may devour.  See: I Peter 5:8.

[Alveus Lacuna]

LOL @ oil. If I am avoiding a triple bacon cheeseburger with a milkshake two days into Lent I'm doing awesome. Olive oil is not a concern at this stage, and would be an improvement over most things.

[choy]

Fine. Then explain how the dueling "fathers" debate works here, too.

Like this...

[podkarpatska]

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.i
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

Well written post, but I must query, how would eating a huge plate of pasta make someone fall into lust? Glottony, that is easy to see, but lust, not so much.

The pasta might prepare you for a grueling bicycle race, but lust? Unless you have a weird food fetish.....?

Seriously, a good post. We view crab, lobster, etc... as delicacies today. Were they detested or viewed negatively by Mediterranean peoples back in an earlier time?

[podkarpatska]

Fine. Then explain how the dueling "fathers" debate works here, too.

Like this...

St. Augustine always feel bad, he's always the last guy picked.    (me bad)

[LBK]

We view crab, lobster, etc... as delicacies today. Were they detested or viewed negatively by Mediterranean peoples back in an earlier time?

Shellfish and molluscs were considered "poor man's food" up until very recently. Historically, the most valuable part of a fisherman's catch was the fish. The other critters left in the nets once the fish had been picked out were either kept for himself, or sold, but at a lower price than the fish.

The luxury tag for caviar has been around for barely 200 years, when the Russian imperial family and court developed a taste for this "peasant food". It didn't take long for the noble classes everywhere to clamor for it. The rest is history.

[Punch]

No one surpasses the Golden-Mouthed.

If not surpassing St John, St John of Damascus has to be at least his equal. 

Especially since he leaves no question unanswered.

Indeed. It would have been a nightmare for anyone to take him on in a theological or doctrinal argument. 

Yet, St. John of Damascus lived centuries after St. John of Chrysostom, and many of St. John of Chrysostom's sermons and writings are apparently lost to history.

OK, fine. But why must everything become an issue, an argument, on OC.net of late?

What has this to do with the oil question?

If the food is the least important aspect of a true fast, then what oil you avoid is almost a meaningless question.

Fine. Then explain how the dueling "fathers" debate works here, too.

I have no idea of what you are talking about.

[Tommelomsky]

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

[mike]

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

Does your whining improve the situation?


And BTW, the forum's purpose:

To be clear, this site exists as an Orthodox Forum where people who identify themselves as Orthodox are given a place to discuss things pertinent to the Orthodox Faith.  In practicality, this means that there is a broad approach to allowing people from the Eastern Orthodox "Majority", the Eastern Orthodox "Traditionalists", and the Oriental Orthodox "Non-Chalcedonians" to post on topics relating to Orthodoxy.

[Tommelomsky]

No, I asked fellow perishoners for advice on the oils (and Lenten practice in general).

[mike]

No, I asked fellow perishoners for advice on the oils (and Lenten practice in general).

Good. So what is your problem?

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

Foods cooked in oils taste better and the Fathers knew this, so oils were banned on fasting days. That is why we can eat olives, peanuts, corn, etc. All of these have oils that are taken from them for cooking, but whole, are not considered an oil.

[Shanghaiski]

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

Well written post, but I must query, how would eating a huge plate of pasta make someone fall into lust? Glottony, that is easy to see, but lust, not so much.

It's not always a direct correlation, but if you are struggling with lust and gluttony together, the two can play off one another. The enemy has strategies.

[Shanghaiski]

No, I was not looking for an argument. However, I think it wrong to compare saints.
God is glorified in His Saints.

I agree that food is not the major ingredient in a fast. We fast to help us avoid sin as it is not what comes into our mouths that is unclean, but rather, what comes out.

If not using oil causes us to sin, it is better to use it.
Then avoiding all oils does not make sense.

Thus, avoiding all things that come from the sea does not make sense.i
There are jurisdictions that forbid shrimp, lobster, and crabs just because they are more expensive than meat and have become the rich man's diet. However, shrimp, lobster, and crab are not vertebrates like fish. Even lampreys and sharks are also not true vertebrates. And then one must not become scrupulous and look for the vertebrate. How far can one go? Granted eating a $20.00 lobster plate and demanding butter with it totally avoids the true spirit of the fast. Likewise, eating a huge plate of spaghetti to the point where one is stuffed avoids the true spirit of the fast because one then falls into the sin of gluttony and perhaps even lust.

Well written post, but I must query, how would eating a huge plate of pasta make someone fall into lust? Glottony, that is easy to see, but lust, not so much.

The pasta might prepare you for a grueling bicycle race, but lust? Unless you have a weird food fetish.....?

Seriously, a good post. We view crab, lobster, etc... as delicacies today. Were they detested or viewed negatively by Mediterranean peoples back in an earlier time?

I don't mean to sound rude, but, please, do not overlook the patristic teaching which comes from their experience in fighting all the passions. You may not struggle against one passion, but that does not mean that a convergence between passions is silly. The belly is the seat of carnal desires--food, sleep, sex. If you try to use your own logic and limited experience (not that you're inexperienced as a person, but you are but one man), you will not understand it as the Fathers and you may miss a valuable teaching for your own edification.

[Maria]

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

[orthonorm]

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

[Schultz]

Neither have I and this is supposed to be a forum that should be helpful and supportive for orthodox christians and/or for those that conciders/wants to convert like me.

All that threads like this does, is to confuse and create division.
Why?

We are getting ready for Great Lent and have already given up MEAT for this week.
Many people just get cranky when not eating meat.
Some folks develop anemia, and then must go off the fast.
In either case, it is good to have a regular spiritual father and to follow his advice BEFORE attempting to follow a strict fasting regime. If one becomes very irritable, then it is imperative to see your priest AND your doctor.

For example, I used to study with a man at my college. He suddenly acted very strange and then disappeared. It turned out that the high carb Lenten diet he was following caused serious problems for him as he was becoming irritable, dizzy, and had fainted. He awoke in the hospital and found that he had nearly died of diabetes.

Yes, fewer than 40 days of "high carb" eating (if you talk about eating in terms of a macronutrients you probably have an eating disorder) causes diabetes.

Assuming you're being your usual snarky self, Maria didn't say that it did.  He could have easily had an undiagnosed case of Type II diabetes and it finally manifested itself in force when he was eating a "high carb" diet w/o changing any of his activity habits to compensate.  It's not that much of a stretch.

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